Really, except for the fact that they are (initially) spheres, and generally quite solid, every sphere is unique. There's even a write-up of Athas' sphere, and while the shell itself can be crossed, it's almost impossible to get to anywhere interesting inside because of the environment within.
I don't much like the idea of "closed spheres," personally - they seem an arbitrary way of limiting the amount of fun you're permitted to have out of some misguided loyalty for a setting's "purity." To hell with purity, I say - the game is about exploring, so let the players explore wherever they want.
Can a crystal sphere be cracked, shattered or broken? And can spelljamming ships get into a closed crystal sphere (like Athas's) in some way?
Well, Take Mystara. The Planet is spread across the Surface of the "inside of the crystal Sphere boundary". That limits Mystaran Access to all those Civilizations living deep in the crust where the crust touches the shell boundary. If the rest of the universe wants access to Spelljammer space they must travel to Mystara and adventure deep into the deepest dungeon and construct their craft in some cavern bordering on that Boundary, A ship capable of helmless Flight. There is of course a deep abyss in the Sea of Dread that touches this boundary and this is accesible by Aquatic Elves and their Coral Ships willing to venture deep into Enthropic Held Territory.
Entering the Mystaran Crystal Sphere is a lot more difficult. Enter at the wrong point and you could wind up plastered in a thin smear across the inside of the crystal sphere.
To enter safely, you must project a map of Mystara on the outer crystal shell and calculate for its rate of turn relating to time.
"Its six days into Felmont. The entry point is there."
Worse still, you have fifty fifty chance of winding up in the hollow world where the helm will Go down because some magic doesnt work and wizards less than fifteen intelligence cant cast spells.
Well, Take Mystara. The Planet is spread across the Surface of the "inside of the crystal Sphere boundary". That limits Mystaran Access to all those Civilizations living deep in the crust where the crust touches the shell boundary. If the rest of the universe wants access to Spelljammer space they must travel to Mystara and adventure deep into the deepest dungeon and construct their craft in some cavern bordering on that Boundary, A ship capable of helmless Flight. There is of course a deep abyss in the Sea of Dread that touches this boundary and this is accesible by Aquatic Elves and their Coral Ships willing to venture deep into Enthropic Held Territory.
Entering the Mystaran Crystal Sphere is a lot more difficult. Enter at the wrong point and you could wind up plastered in a thin smear across the inside of the crystal sphere.
To enter safely, you must project a map of Mystara on the outer crystal shell and calculate for its rate of turn relating to time.
"Its six days into Felmont. The entry point is there."
Worse still, you have fifty fifty chance of winding up in the hollow world where the helm will Go down because some magic doesnt work and wizards less than fifteen intelligence cant cast spells.
Where do you get this info ? It just plain wrong
Mystara is normal planet like any other on the outside, its interior is hollow with a miniature sun in the center. Magic works normally there save for the polar openings where there are two antimagic fields
The rest of the crystal sphere is wildspce with other 10 planets plus the sun.
The real problem is that since gravity and air rules are different you need some way to retain your air envelope.
Take a look here:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystsjr.html
and also on the Mystara boards and on the Vaults of Pandius
The opening of the Athas crystal sphere could provide some great adventuring opportunities, with those people that want it open fighting those that want it to stay closed. The effects would be devastating socially, economically, and politically. The other crystal spheres might also have to deal with Sorcerer Kings and their empowered Templars.
The closed Athas crystal sphere can be opened, but only by the Spelljammer itself. The Spelljammer has the ability to open permanent portals in crystal spheres, according to The Legend of Spelljammer Box Set. If the Spelljammer (or its captain) were to open a permanent portal in the Athas crystal sphere, then that would allow future traffic to come through.
The opening of the Athas crystal sphere could provide some great adventuring opportunities, with those people that want it open fighting those that want it to stay closed. The effects would be devastating socially, economically, and politically. The other crystal spheres might also have to deal with Sorcerer Kings and their empowered Templars.
Though it still wouldn't bring any gods to Athas. At least City by the Silt Sea says Athas has never had any gods and never will, doesn't say why? It would seem the Grey blocks out divine communication/power from the outer planes, though it does mention that some thri kreen go to Thri Kreen hell in Stygia in Baator, and Heaven in the Happy Hunting Grounds.
Also, do any solar systems just plain lack Crystal Sphere's, period? And what would happen if you lit something flammable in the Phlogiston, would the whole prime material plane ignite?
There are no canonical examples of solar systems without a crystal sphere (except Mystara, which was never canonically defined as being accessible by spelljamming anyway).
If you start a fire in the phlogiston, the result is a fireball. the size varies in proportion to the amount of flammable material available and the strength of the fire magic. Generally, it wouldn't encompass an area much larger than your ship's air envelope at the most extreme.
Seeing as how the phlogiston is the space outside a crystal sphere, it can't affect a solar system.
There are no canonical examples of solar systems without a crystal sphere (except Mystara, which was never canonically defined as being accessible by spelljamming anyway).
If you start a fire in the phlogiston, the result is a fireball. the size varies in proportion to the amount of flammable material available and the strength of the fire magic. Generally, it wouldn't encompass an area much larger than your ship's air envelope at the most extreme.
Seeing as how the phlogiston is the space outside a crystal sphere, it can't affect a solar system.
I should also look into just how far apart crystal sphere's are, and maybe the phlogiston allows faster than light travel via it.
There are no canonical examples of solar systems without a crystal sphere (except Mystara, which was never canonically defined as being accessible by spelljamming anyway).
In Hackjammer, which is based on but a seperate product from Spelljammer, it is possible to have solar systems without spheres. However, that was done to allow for sci-fi style games to blend with that particular setting, and the Pholgiston was presented as a flavor of "hyperspace", for lack of a better term.
If you start a fire in the phlogiston, the result is a fireball. the size varies in proportion to the amount of flammable material available and the strength of the fire magic. Generally, it wouldn't encompass an area much larger than your ship's air envelope at the most extreme.
Heh, I've always had this vision of a high-level hackmaster battlemage spelljacked (aka, memorizing more spells than they are normally allowed) all fire spells, and miscast in the flow. Kinda like a mini-nova ;)
Seeing as how the phlogiston is the space outside a crystal sphere, it can't affect a solar system.
The only known instance of the phlogiston affecting a sphere comes from the last SJ novel, and that's always been considered a bit...odd.
Mystara is normal planet like any other on the outside, its interior is hollow with a miniature sun in the center. Magic works normally there save for the polar openings where there are two antimagic fields
More: magic does not work normally; the Spell of Preservation hinders most spells. Spelljamming helms are turned off, teleporting is impossible, contact with Astral and Ethereal is severed off. If you want to go from here to there in the Hollow World of Mystara, you had to move one foot at a time an walk there! Riding a beast (horse, eagle, griffon) or using a chariot or a seagoing ship is the only way to ease your journey.
More: magic does not work normally; the Spell of Preservation hinders most spells. Spelljamming helms are turned off, teleporting is impossible, contact with Astral and Ethereal is severed off. If you want to go from here to there in the Hollow World of Mystara, you had to move one foot at a time an walk there! Riding a beast (horse, eagle, griffon) or using a chariot or a seagoing ship is the only way to ease your journey.
And as Mystara was invaded by the Alphatians, They who came from far across the Mystaran Universe from their own Systems which they had conquered and filled with a perpetual air envelope using magics far greater than available to even those Alphatians who came to Mystara in the wake of that empire's destruction. I would suggest that there is no crystal sphere boundary limit in the Mystaran Universe and that it must there for be the shell of the planet Mystara (If not out and beyond then within).
So when I tell you that the Mystaran Crystal Sphere is the Planet Mystara and the Phlogiston is only accessable deep beneath the surface of both the Hollow World and Outer World, I do so in compliance with that Cannon material already produced by TSR.
So that means that the first Mystaran race encountered will be the Shadow Elves in their City of Stars which will emerge into the Phlogiston just as soon as they get the Reactor/Immortal Artefact of Rafiel on-line. The City of Stars will sit on the surface of the third side of the crystal sphere. A city in the Phlogiston. The Heart of an Empire.
So when I tell you that the Mystaran Crystal Sphere is the Planet Mystara and the Phlogiston is only accessable deep beneath the surface of both the Hollow World and Outer World, I do so in compliance with that Cannon material already produced by TSR.
Arcanda is correct to point out that spelljamming would not work within the Hollow World due to the Spell of Preservation. It might work in the thin field between Mystara's surface and the Anti-Magical World Shield, but since most of that region would be solid rock, it doesn't seem like a viable option either.
You can do what you want in your campaign, but I wouldn't consider it in any way canonical.
If you want to integrate Spelljammer with Mystara the best options are assuming Mystara's solar system is a normal Crystal Sphere or for purists have a Mega Crystal Sphere encompassing the entire Mystaran Galaxy.
Havard
So when I tell you that the Mystaran Crystal Sphere is the Planet Mystara and the Phlogiston is only accessable deep beneath the surface of both the Hollow World and Outer World, I do so in compliance with that Cannon material already produced by TSR.
I don't think you understand the terminology you're using.
"Crystal sphere" refers to an unbreakable black globe that surrounds a solar system. Either Mystara's solar system has one or it doesn't (it doesn't, in 0D&D canon, though it might be assumed to have one in AD&D 2nd edition canon, when it was retrofitted into the AD&D multiverse). The planet itself is probably not a crystal sphere; most don't have any gravity, for example. It's not completely impossible, mind you: there are a few examples of crystal spheres within crystal spheres, and crystal spheres with gravity. But it's very unlikely, and certainly not a foregone conclusion.
Phlogiston only exists outside the crystal spheres. If Mystara's solar system doesn't have a crystal sphere, Phlogiston is not accessible from it. There is no possible way that it could be accessible beneath the surface of the world.
If the planet Mystara was itself a crystal sphere in the sense you seem to be describing, the Phlogiston would completely cover the surface of the planet, and indeed the entire solar system and beyond it. Phlogiston is not an extradimensional substance that seeps into regions outside of the Spelljammer cosmology and provides transit to the AD&D worlds - it's the chaos outside Creation, and outside the crystal spheres it's the only native matter there is.
If you want to link a universe outside the Spelljammer cosmology to the Spelljammer universe, a portal or wormhole would be the most logical way. Phlogiston doesn't work the way you're implying. So if you were to say, for example, "there's a wormhole in the Mystaran underdark, near the City of Stars, that leads directly to the Phlogiston," that would fit much better with the existing canon.
Arcanda is correct to point out that spelljamming would not work within the Hollow World due to the Spell of Preservation. It might work in the thin field between Mystara's surface and the Anti-Magical World Shield, but since most of that region would be solid rock, it doesn't seem like a viable option either.
xorn ships? :D
xorn ships? :D
Point
Havard
I don't think you understand the terminology you're using.
"Crystal sphere" refers to an unbreakable black globe that surrounds a solar system. Either Mystara's solar system has one or it doesn't (it doesn't, in 0D&D canon, though it might be assumed to have one in AD&D 2nd edition canon, when it was retrofitted into the AD&D multiverse). The planet itself is probably not a crystal sphere; most don't have any gravity, for example. It's not completely impossible, mind you: there are a few examples of crystal spheres within crystal spheres, and crystal spheres with gravity. But it's very unlikely, and certainly not a foregone conclusion.
Phlogiston only exists outside the crystal spheres. If Mystara's solar system doesn't have a crystal sphere, Phlogiston is not accessible from it. There is no possible way that it could be accessible beneath the surface of the world.
If the planet Mystara was itself a crystal sphere in the sense you seem to be describing, the Phlogiston would completely cover the surface of the planet, and indeed the entire solar system and beyond it. Phlogiston is not an extradimensional substance that seeps into regions outside of the Spelljammer cosmology and provides transit to the AD&D worlds - it's the chaos outside Creation, and outside the crystal spheres it's the only native matter there is.
If you want to link a universe outside the Spelljammer cosmology to the Spelljammer universe, a portal or wormhole would be the most logical way. Phlogiston doesn't work the way you're implying. So if you were to say, for example, "there's a wormhole in the Mystaran underdark, near the City of Stars, that leads directly to the Phlogiston," that would fit much better with the existing canon.
I thought crystal sphere's were crystal clear, transparent, not black.
I thought crystal sphere's were crystal clear, transparent, not black.
Varies from sphere to sphere. The color, texture, and appearance of the spherewall is unique to a given sphere.
Havard
I don't think you understand the terminology you're using.
"Crystal sphere" refers to an unbreakable black globe that surrounds a solar system. Either Mystara's solar system has one or it doesn't (it doesn't, in 0D&D canon, though it might be assumed to have one in AD&D 2nd edition canon, when it was retrofitted into the AD&D multiverse). The planet itself is probably not a crystal sphere; most don't have any gravity, for example. It's not completely impossible, mind you: there are a few examples of crystal spheres within crystal spheres, and crystal spheres with gravity. But it's very unlikely, and certainly not a foregone conclusion.
Phlogiston only exists outside the crystal spheres. If Mystara's solar system doesn't have a crystal sphere, Phlogiston is not accessible from it. There is no possible way that it could be accessible beneath the surface of the world.
If the planet Mystara was itself a crystal sphere in the sense you seem to be describing, the Phlogiston would completely cover the surface of the planet, and indeed the entire solar system and beyond it. Phlogiston is not an extradimensional substance that seeps into regions outside of the Spelljammer cosmology and provides transit to the AD&D worlds - it's the chaos outside Creation, and outside the crystal spheres it's the only native matter there is.
If you want to link a universe outside the Spelljammer cosmology to the Spelljammer universe, a portal or wormhole would be the most logical way. Phlogiston doesn't work the way you're implying. So if you were to say, for example, "there's a wormhole in the Mystaran underdark, near the City of Stars, that leads directly to the Phlogiston," that would fit much better with the existing canon.
You suggest that a campaign universe must be "inside" a hollow shell but the Crystal Sphere is also a boundary and if the "inside" of a crystal sphere is the bottom and inner most layer of a planet such as Mystara being accessable by digging down from the hollow world or down from the outer world(which is topologically correct), I can only suggest that you the PC would have to dig down through the elemental debris to to get to that exposable sphere.
Considering the Immortal Activity in the Mystaran Universe, such a topological structure is more likely here than anywhere else.
Consider the crustal penetration of the many underground Mystaran Civilizations...
Frankly a Snowglobe mentality has shaped and limited the spelljammer setting.
You suggest that a campaign universe must be "inside" a hollow shell but the Crystal Sphere is also a boundary and if the "inside" of a crystal sphere is the bottom and inner most layer of a planet such as Mystara being accessable by digging down from the hollow world or down from the outer world(which is topologically correct), I can only suggest that you the PC would have to dig down through the elemental debris to to get to that exposable sphere.
Considering the Immortal Activity in the Mystaran Universe, such a topological structure is more likely here than anywhere else.
Consider the crustal penetration of the many underground Mystaran Civilizations...
Frankly a Snowglobe mentality has shaped and limited the spelljammer setting.
If you want to change the nature of crystal spheres, that's fine. But don't go claiming that your idea is "in compliance with that Cannon [sic] material already produced by TSR," when you've just drop-kicked canon out the window. You can't have it both ways.
Wyvern
If you want to change the nature of crystal spheres, that's fine. But don't go claiming that your idea is "in compliance with that Cannon [sic] material already produced by TSR," when you've just drop-kicked canon out the window. You can't have it both ways.
Wyvern
What change? The Outer Boundary of a Crystal Sphere (the outer boundary being that which is in the Phlogiston) is always a sphere, yet every inside is unique and unusual-enough that a Dragon Article on Spelljammer had a pool of a tropical island as an access point for the phlogiston so that one bunch of spelljammers didnt have to sail to the crystal sphere boundary through space. Basicly you have here another example of the crystal sphere of a system being dimensionally seperate. The idea is good enough for TSR when they published Dragon. The Idea that the Mystaran Universe which is pretty much infinite in size should have a crystal sphere layer as part of the planet Mystara is in the interests of Pre-existing canon information.
Frankly this brings up the issue of Greyhawk as well. Mystara and Greyhawk have crashed "Space ships" in their Canon works associated with Galactic Empires in their Universes. A Crystal Sphere Limit simply ditches what was CANON for something else simply because someone decided they didnt want halflings with a fleet of Battle cruisers showing up in orbit and doing an intimidate check on a whole planetary population.
I thought crystal sphere's were crystal clear, transparent, not black.
If they were transparent, you'd be able to see the phlogiston through them. Such a solar system wouldn't have anything that looked like a night sky (unless it turned opaque at night).
Sometimes they have holes in them through which you can see the phlogiston - these holes are interpreted by groundlings as stars.
Most commonly, crystal spheres are black; that's how you get the "outer space" look.
yet every inside is unique and unusual-enough that a Dragon Article on Spelljammer had a pool of a tropical island as an access point for the phlogiston so that one bunch of spelljammers didnt have to sail to the crystal sphere boundary through space.
I would say that I didn't think that was the case (I have all the Spelljammer-related Dragon Magazine issues), but I'm not really sure what you're suggesting. What is "a pool of a tropical island?"
Basicly you have here another example of the crystal sphere of a system being dimensionally seperate.
Dimensionally separate how? I don't know what this means.
The Idea that the Mystaran Universe which is pretty much infinite in size should have a crystal sphere layer as part of the planet Mystara is in the interests of Pre-existing canon information.
I'm not sure how such an idea would really affect pre-existing canon one way or the other, except to make it really hard to reach the Hollow World. As I said, though, it's not impossible that there's a crystal sphere beneath Mystara's crust, just very unlikely. The idea that there would be phlogiston down there pretty blatantly contradicts what phlogiston is, however.
Frankly this brings up the issue of Greyhawk as well. Mystara and Greyhawk have crashed "Space ships" in their Canon works associated with Galactic Empires in their Universes.
I've heard that criticism before, and I don't entirely disagree with it. However, I don't understand how it ties into your idea of pumping phlogiston beneath Mystara's crust. Canonically speaking, there's really no way that could happen (even my wormhole idea from before doesn't work, since extradimensional or planar links are impossible in the Flow).
I don't think the galactic empires are a deal-breaker, though. Spelljammer itself has many empires that span a number of spheres (for example, the Vodani). Crystal spheres don't actually limit very much, since they have portals in them; they just force ships to move at a different pace in a solar system than they're able to move out in the Flow. The "snowglobe" problem you mention isn't a meaningful problem at all, to my mind.
The Warden and similar technological ships probably originated in a parallel Material Plane, transported to the D&D universe accidently via a wormhole or space/time rift. That's not to say there aren't technological spheres in the D&D universe - there probably are, and it's conceivable that there was even a galactic technological empire at some point. I don't personally like that idea, though; I'd rather keep technological universes separate. Phlogiston doesn't work as a connective agent, but there are other ways.
I do like the idea of technological aliens colonizing multiple worlds in Greyspace, but Metamorphosis Alpha and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks present visions of the future that seem a bit dated and cheesy by modern standards, so they need spicing up a bit. Or possibly just replacing with non-technological illithids and neogi and the like, since crashed illithid and neogi spelljammers are very much Greyhawk canon as well.
It's true that the two visions of what outer space is like - the relatively hard sci-fi of Barrier Peaks and the wild fantasy of the Spelljammer universe - conflict, and in that sense I agree with your criticism. I don't see how your proposed solution resolves this conflict, though; in some ways, they're always going to conflict. Any attempt to claim one vision or the other "conforms with canon" is going to be wrong, because the canon itself doesn't conform with canon.
A purely canonical version of Mystara wouldn't have any connection to the Spelljammer universe at all. There would be no crystal spheres or phlogiston because those are Spelljammer things, not Mystara things.
I would say that I didn't think that was the case (I have all the Spelljammer-related Dragon Magazine issues), but I'm not really sure what you're suggesting. What is "a pool of a tropical island?"
It was late. The article in question was on a spelljammer base. The Pool in the middle of the coral reef was infact part of the inner surface of the crystal sphere allowing the spelljammer fleet to make use of it rather than have to fly off world and make for the regular inner surface of the crystal sphere before they could exit. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Dimensionally separate how? I don't know what this means.
When i describe Dimensionaly seperate, i mean here is a piece of the inner surface of the crystal sphere only it isnt on the outer edge of the system with the rest of the crystal sphere, it is a Pool within the confines of a tropical coral atol.
I'm not sure how such an idea would really affect pre-existing canon one way or the other, except to make it really hard to reach the Hollow World. As I said, though, it's not impossible that there's a crystal sphere beneath Mystara's crust, just very unlikely. The idea that there would be phlogiston down there pretty blatantly contradicts what phlogiston is, however.
What i am saying is that there is still a crystal sphere inner boundary below the surface of Mystara. Not the "Phlogiston gas" as that would be in spelljammerspace beyond the outside of the crystal sphere.
More importantly ther is more evidence in the Mystaran Setting to disuade you from any alternative...
I've heard that criticism before, and I don't entirely disagree with it. However, I don't understand how it ties into your idea of pumping phlogiston beneath Mystara's crust. Canonically speaking, there's really no way that could happen (even my wormhole idea from before doesn't work, since extradimensional or planar links are impossible in the Flow).
I don't think the galactic empires are a deal-breaker, though. Spelljammer itself has many empires that span a number of spheres (for example, the Vodani). Crystal spheres don't actually limit very much, since they have portals in them; they just force ships to move at a different pace in a solar system than they're able to move out in the Flow. The "snowglobe" problem you mention isn't a meaningful problem at all, to my mind.
The Warden and similar technological ships probably originated in a parallel Material Plane, transported to the D&D universe accidently via a wormhole or space/time rift. That's not to say there aren't technological spheres in the D&D universe - there probably are, and it's conceivable that there was even a galactic technological empire at some point. I don't personally like that idea, though; I'd rather keep technological universes separate. Phlogiston doesn't work as a connective agent, but there are other ways.
I do like the idea of technological aliens colonizing multiple worlds in Greyspace, but Metamorphosis Alpha and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks present visions of the future that seem a bit dated and cheesy by modern standards, so they need spicing up a bit. Or possibly just replacing with non-technological illithids and neogi and the like, since crashed illithid and neogi spelljammers are very much Greyhawk canon as well.
It's true that the two visions of what outer space is like - the relatively hard sci-fi of Barrier Peaks and the wild fantasy of the Spelljammer universe - conflict, and in that sense I agree with your criticism. I don't see how your proposed solution resolves this conflict, though; in some ways, they're always going to conflict. Any attempt to claim one vision or the other "conforms with canon" is going to be wrong, because the canon itself doesn't conform with canon.
A purely canonical version of Mystara wouldn't have any connection to the Spelljammer universe at all. There would be no crystal spheres or phlogiston because those are Spelljammer things, not Mystara things.
An innersphere boundary (and spelljammer space) accessable by subsurface exploration would be more CANON than suddenly changing the recorded infinite nature of the Mystaran Universe and putting a crystal boundary just past planet ten.
Conceivably it is better to leave the Mystaran Universe to its infinite size and validate Spelljammer Space as being on the other side of a crystal sphere boundary that can only be accessed by exploring deep into the dungeons and caves beneath it's surface. It alone would be unique in the campaign worlds in that you could never come back...
1. The Chalice of Destiny
Tyran the Magist examined his prize. Across the shrine the Chalice sat illuminated by light streaming through the coloured glass windows.
He moved to touch it.
Adrift now in a sea of colour, Tyran looked back to see a black crystal sphere.
"Heeeee." Tyran breathed new air and contemplated his prospects. he was doomed.
DM Briefing: PC Encounters something that on contact tips him into the Phlogiston. Unprepared, this could spell death.
Conceivably it is better to leave the Mystaran Universe to its infinite size and validate Spelljammer Space as being on the other side of a crystal sphere boundary that can only be accessed by exploring deep into the dungeons and caves beneath it's surface. It alone would be unique in the campaign worlds in that you could never come back...
The single most obvious way to make Mystara have a crystal sphere that is perfectly in-keeping with existing canon for both Mystara and SJ is to say that the sphere is in the usual place (a bit past the orbit of the last planet), but it's inner surface has a powerful illusion that makes it appear as if there is an entire galaxy beyond it.
Since this sphere would be (by mundane means) perfectly undetectable from inside, no Mystaran to date would have had any particular reason to contemplate this shell. It may be examinable by magical means, but unless something extraordinary happens, Mystara's population of wizards would have no particular reason to examine that space by magical means.
The exact nature of the portals through to the phlogiston, and what happens if you accidentally hit the sphere from inside (it not being the easiest thing to spot), I leave as an exercise for your creativity. Perhaps the entire sphere is an active portal that spits you out to the phlogiston on contact. That's probably the most playable option.
This solution does not break Mystara canon. It leaves outer space as Mystarans have examined it essentially intact. Since it was never officially stated where the SS Warden/Beagle (that ship that crashed and became the Glantrian artifact) actually came from, making those stars into an illusion does not affect that piece of background.
The Alphatian background has, in various sources, been stated as another solar system (that can still mean another crystal sphere, with no retconning necessary), an alternate prime plane, a destroyed planet in the main Mystara solar system, and a minor outer plane. None of these are incompatible with Mystara having a crystal sphere.
It also leaves the essential concept of crystal spheres actually being crystal spheres (a core concept in SJ) intact.
The single most obvious way to make Mystara have a crystal sphere that is perfectly in-keeping with existing canon for both Mystara and SJ is to say that the sphere is in the usual place (a bit past the orbit of the last planet), but it's inner surface has a powerful illusion that makes it appear as if there is an entire galaxy beyond it.
Since this sphere would be (by mundane means) perfectly undetectable from inside, no Mystaran to date would have had any particular reason to contemplate this shell. It may be examinable by magical means, but unless something extraordinary happens, Mystara's population of wizards would have no particular reason to examine that space by magical means.
The exact nature of the portals through to the phlogiston, and what happens if you accidentally hit the sphere from inside (it not being the easiest thing to spot), I leave as an exercise for your creativity. Perhaps the entire sphere is an active portal that spits you out to the phlogiston on contact. That's probably the most playable option.
This solution does not break Mystara canon. It leaves outer space as Mystarans have examined it essentially intact. Since it was never officially stated where the SS Warden/Beagle (that ship that crashed and became the Glantrian artifact) actually came from, making those stars into an illusion does not affect that piece of background.
The Alphatian background has, in various sources, been stated as another solar system (that can still mean another crystal sphere, with no retconning necessary), an alternate prime plane, a destroyed planet in the main Mystara solar system, and a minor outer plane. None of these are incompatible with Mystara having a crystal sphere.
It also leaves the essential concept of crystal spheres actually being crystal spheres (a core concept in SJ) intact.
This works for me. The Gold Box (Immortal set) states that the Galaxy is similar to the Milky Way, but I guess it doesn't specifically say that there are no Crystal Spheres or Phlogiston separating the stars... ;)
Havard
It was late. The article in question was on a spelljammer base. The Pool in the middle of the coral reef was infact part of the inner surface of the crystal sphere allowing the spelljammer fleet to make use of it rather than have to fly off world and make for the regular inner surface of the crystal sphere before they could exit.
That doesn't sound familiar at all. Perhaps you're thinking of something that appeared in Polyhedron?
What you describe sounds like some sort of portal that leads directly to the edge of the crystal sphere. That's certainly possible, but pretty meaningless in a universe like the one you advocate, with no crystal spheres at the edge of the planetary systems. You can't access "Spelljammer space" in a universe where that sort of cosmology doesn't exist, after all. If there are no phlogiston currents cycling through the galaxy, putting a sphere beneath a planet isn't going to help you access them.
What it sounds like you really want is a portal beneath the surface of Mystara that leads to Greyspace or Krynnspace or one of the other spheres within the Spelljammer universe. Of course, there's no reason to put it beneath the surface - it could just as easily be found elsewhere in Mystara's system, perhaps on the moon Pateris or elsewhere.
I agree with Rhialto and Havard, though, that the Spelljammer cosmology doesn't really conflict with Mystaran canon in any meaningful way. There could easily be a crystal sphere surrounding Mystara's space, and alien empires could go in and out of it.
The biggest problem I have with the concept of crystal spheres is that it's hard for inanimate objects to move from one sphere to another - it's hard to justify nemesis planets that travel between stars, sowing destruction in their wake, or asteroids and debris from far-off systems crashing on to a planet. It's hard to justify planet-sized turtles swimming to the galactic core to spawn their young, too. It can be done, for example with gates and wormholes and rifts in the fabric of space, or simply having the objects travel through the Flow and entering one of the system's open portals, but it's more difficult.
More importantly ther is more evidence in the Mystaran Setting to disuade you from any alternative...
Like what? The presence of crystals near the shadow elf city? They're really not the same kind of crystal. The "crystal" of crystal spheres is more like crystallized space-time, or perhaps crystallized phlogiston.
Sometimes they have holes in them through which you can see the phlogiston - these holes are interpreted by groundlings as stars.
I was told stars in spelljammer can be many things, actually real balls of burning gas, torches carried by enormous giants, etc, not that they were holes in the sphere itself. And I didn't even know the phlogiston had a color.
How fast does the Phlogiston flow. Are crystal sphere's seperated by light years and it can take you faster than light?
I was told stars in spelljammer can be many things, actually real balls of burning gas, torches carried by enormous giants, etc, not that they were holes in the sphere itself. And I didn't even know the phlogiston had a color.
The exac nature of the stars is different inside each crystal sphere. Travel through enough different spheres, and somewhere, each of those will be true. It would be an unusual sphere that had more than one of those being the cause of stars at the same time though.
How fast does the Phlogiston flow. Are crystal sphere's seperated by light years and it can take you faster than light?
The phlogiston flows at the speed of plot. If your ship needs to be there by a certain time to make the story continue, it arrives. If it needs to arrive late for the story to work, it is late.
(If you want numbers, sorry, but those were never defined anywhere).
This works for me. The Gold Box (Immortal set) states that the Galaxy is similar to the Milky Way, but I guess it doesn't specifically say that there are no Crystal Spheres or Phlogiston separating the stars... ;)
Havard
Another way to interpret Mystara's crystal sphere is that it makes both crystal spheres (itself and that of other solar systems) and the phlogiston itself, invisible. Stars in the Mystaran night sky are, quite literally, the suns of other capaign worlds. Under this interpretation, Mystara would be about the only system that would have a decent view of the entire galaxy.
Of course, should Mystaran scientists ever get telescopes powerful enough to resolve details of other star systems, they may begin to notice some very interesting details.
This interpretation is even closer to Mystara canon than the "grand illusion" idea in my earlier post, but potentially makes Mystara the base of a galactic empire, should they ever get their act together.
I was told stars in spelljammer can be many things, actually real balls of burning gas, torches carried by enormous giants, etc, not that they were holes in the sphere itself. And I didn't even know the phlogiston had a color.
Yes, stars can be many things. Holes in the sphere itself are one of the things that they can be (and often are).
Phlogiston is rainbow-colored.
See the Concordance of Arcane Space, pages 9 and 10.
Relevant quotes: (emphases mine)
"Outside the crystal sphere is the rainbow ocean of phlogiston and more crystal spheres."
"Usually a sphere has a radius at least twice as big as the orbital radius of the outermost celestial body in the system."
"The spheres consist of an unbreakable, dark, ceramic material of unknown origin... Whatever their origin, the crystal shells are uniform throughout space. All appear as great, dark, featureless spheres of unidentifiable matter."
"Those fantasy systems with stars in the night sky often have these stars mounted along the inside of the crystal sphere. The nature of stars varies from sphere to sphere, however. Within some spheres the stars are small portholes looking out on the phlogiston, in some they are painted lights along the interior, in some they are great cities inhabited by alien creatures, and in others they are great bowls of fire held aloft by huge statues of forgotten gods."
"Outside and between the crystal spheres is a turbulent, rainbow ocean of flammable ether called the phlogiston. The phlogiston is a multicolored sea upon which float the various systems within their crystal shells. The term phlogiston is applied equally to both the multicolored medium and to the entire region surrounding the crystal spheres."
Unfortunately that would change the nature of the Mystaran Universe. In the end, only the Crystal sphere boundary being below the surface of Mystara causes the least disruption and continues its isolation from visitors.
More importantly Mystara would be the home world of all the common campaign species...seeing as departure would be easier than return.
(nuff said)
Ok, lets hear about the Broken Sphere (as described in the novel of the same name), It reasons for being broke, and a real background on it because I could never find that particular book.
At the end of the day, you can do what you want in your campaign. For almost everyone else, it is obviously non-canonical, in either base campaign setting, but if you enjoy it, that is the main point, which is why I've stopped arguing over it.
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0108c&L=spelljammer-l&P=3981
There *is* a broken sphere, but it is *not* the Astromundi Cluster. The Broken Sphere is the origin sphere of the *Spelljammer* itself, and was destroyed when said ship first exited. It opened a portal too wide, and the phlogiston flooded in, and an explosion was created that decimated everything in the sphere and, for the only time in known records, hurt the substance of a crystal shell. All that is left now is so many pieces of "eggshell" floating in the phlogiston. (who noticed the pun? One Egg? crystal "shell"? aww, you guys have no sense of humor...)
I have no idea how canonical that paragraph is. Apparently, the novel in which the broken sphere is introduced is the only canon source of this broken sphere, and most reviews of that book say it is poorly written and full of plot holes. I haven't read the book myself, though.
I have no idea how canonical that paragraph is. Apparently, the novel in which the broken sphere is introduced is the only canon source of this broken sphere, and most reviews of that book say it is poorly written and full of plot holes. I haven't read the book myself, though.
I have read it, and all of the above is true. The basic plot behind the broken sphere is as follows:
Long ago (no indication of how long ago it really was), there was a sphere with 18 planets. 17 lived together in peace; the 18th, the farthest out, went to war with its fellow planets. It got so bad that the "sky stingers" (basically smalljammers) got together with a bunch of wizards to cast a spell, which fused them into the Spelljammer. The Spelljammer then went from planet to planet picking up refugees before fleeing the sphere. On its way out, it opened a portal that was too big, and phlogiston flooded the sphere, causing the sun to go supernova & destroyed the sphere. The Spelljammer has wandered ever since.
The plot of the book itself reads like a poor DM's running of the adventure that comes with the Legend of the Spelljammer boxed set, and the primary reason why its generally not considered canon.
I am quite sure I read somewhere about crystal shells "wandering off" (so to say), making them less accessible for the spelljamming society and ultimately being lost in history. Sorry, can't remember where I read about that...
Anyway, the rules being silent on some of the most basic aspects like sphere distances, pflogiston travelling speeds and the nonexistence of a canon sphere map all have the advantage of being more easily adoptable to each DM's campaign and the disadvantage that it might take a hell of a lot of work to do before you can get your players jamming among the stars.
It all depends on how much into detail you want to go and the attitude of your group: I am the kind of DM who wants to 'know' these basic stuff to be able to give my players characters NPCs who can answer their groundling questions once they completed their first adventure in wildspace (i.e. the adventure with the same name) and dock at the first spelljamming port they can navigate their ship to. If I had no grasp of these basic things, how could I roleplay an NPC who lived all his live among the stars and MUST know all this basic stuff???
The same time, I am pretty sure my players will be mightily curious and want to find out what all this spelljamming stuff is about. That's an advantage, because I can plan months in advance and do the necessary work like drawing up a 'map of the spheres' (my version of the material plane, i.e. spelljamming world) or coming up with a set of 'rules' (the basic stuff mentioned above). In fact, I started preparing that kind of stuff years in advance because I don't have much free time available.
On the other hand, not having a canon version of all this stuff is in my opinion one of the main reasons why the setting wasn't as popular as, say, greyhawk or the forgotten realms: Not everybody likes having to do the groundwork themselves instead of having it presented in one or two juicy chapters of a rulebook.
My dream would have been the inclusion of one - or even better: more than one - sets of rules governing this stuff. Call it two different versions of the same spelljamming universe, one for longterm SJ campaigns and one less detailed for short adventures. If we had gotten that, a lot of gamers might have be attracted to the game.
Journeys between spheres were in essence created by the GM saying "it takes you 10d10 days. You arrive".
I am quite sure I read somewhere about crystal shells "wandering off" (so to say), making them less accessible for the spelljamming society and ultimately being lost in history. Sorry, can't remember where I read about that...
More than likely you read that in the bit about the Arcane Inner Flow from Sea of Sorrows in Dungeon magazine.
All spheres do change position every so slightly, and ever so slowly. For the most part, the change is so gradual that really, only elves would even notice. Sorta the same speed that our own constellations change: at such a slow pace, that essentually, you'd never notice the ever so slight changes.
My dream would have been the inclusion of one - or even better: more than one - sets of rules governing this stuff. Call it two different versions of the same spelljamming universe, one for longterm SJ campaigns and one less detailed for short adventures. If we had gotten that, a lot of gamers might have be attracted to the game.
I'd love to do SJ that way...unfortunately, only so many hours in the day, only one of me. And cloning is too darned expensive...;)
More than likely you read that in the bit about the Arcane Inner Flow from Sea of Sorrows in Dungeon magazine.
I know, and I included the AIF into my "master map of the spheres". One of the problems I see: random travel times just feel wrong to me (and my players, I'll wager). There should be something like a "common knowledge" about how long it takes to travel for example from Torilspace to Bralspace - so I as DM have to come up with numbers. Even if they are only approximations and vary for each travel, there should be something like 'expected values' of travel times.
All spheres do change position every so slightly, and ever so slowly. For the most part, the change is so gradual that really, only elves would even notice. Sorta the same speed that our own constellations change: at such a slow pace, that essentually, you'd never notice the ever so slight changes.
...which boils down to "the spheres are static". At least in the short run and thus the only timeframe that's important for a campaign. The gradual change might be useful as explanation for story elements like long-lost or recently discovered spheres, but during the life of any given campaign, nothing will change. ...another reason why more or less exact travel times should be common knownledge, btw.
I'd love to do SJ that way...unfortunately, only so many hours in the day, only one of me. And cloning is too darned expensive...;)
The same with me! Even the task of creating a "DM master map of the spheres" took several weeks, since I had to sift through dozens of sphere- descriptions to decide which ones to include!
I know, and I included the AIF into my "master map of the spheres". One of the problems I see: random travel times just feel wrong to me (and my players, I'll wager). There should be something like a "common knowledge" about how long it takes to travel for example from Torilspace to Bralspace - so I as DM have to come up with numbers. Even if they are only approximations and vary for each travel, there should be something like 'expected values' of travel times.
I read "random travel times" as being "if you travel off a well-known phlogiston river, then your time might vary; otherwise, the time should be known." If you look at the map of the Arcane Inner Flow, it does have travel times on it. If TSR had created an actual setting to go with the SJ box, I think we would have seen travel times to go with it, leaving the "random time" for those times when PCs decide to have a "second star on the right, and straight on til morning!" moment.
...which boils down to "the spheres are static".
Pretty much.
The same with me! Even the task of creating a "DM master map of the spheres" took several weeks, since I hat to sift through dozens of sphere- descriptions to decide which ones to include!
Heh, I could probably name most of the spheres off the top of my head...but that's the benefit of a photographic memory :D
I am quite sure I read somewhere about crystal shells "wandering off" (so to say), making them less accessible for the spelljamming society and ultimately being lost in history. Sorry, can't remember where I read about that...
I think it's more a matter of the phlogiston currents changing than the spheres themselves moving apart.
Anyway, the rules being silent on some of the most basic aspects like sphere distances, pflogiston travelling speeds and the nonexistence of a canon sphere map all have the advantage of being more easily adoptable to each DM's campaign and the disadvantage that it might take a hell of a lot of work to do before you can get your players jamming among the stars.
It all depends on how much into detail you want to go and the attitude of your group: I am the kind of DM who wants to 'know' these basic stuff to be able to give my players characters NPCs who can answer their groundling questions once they completed their first adventure in wildspace (i.e. the adventure with the same name) and dock at the first spelljamming port they can navigate their ship to. If I had no grasp of these basic things, how could I roleplay an NPC who lived all his live among the stars and MUST know all this basic stuff???
And just how exactly would anyone be able to measure speed and distance in the Flow?
Wyvern
I read "random travel times" as being "if you travel off a well-known phlogiston river, then your time might vary; otherwise, the time should be known." If you look at the map of the Arcane Inner Flow, it does have travel times on it.
There were some established travel times in a few of the published modules, but these were not necessarily useful:
In Crystal Spheres they gave travel times between Herospace and Faeriespace in both directions (9 days Hero to Faerie, 15 days return IIRC), but not other journeys (and never mind the mental gymnstics required to match the PC's route in that module to the map in Astromundi Cluster).
In Skull and Crossbows they gave a travel time to the Dead Shell Sphere of 25 days, but this was from 'whichever-sphere-the-PCs-happen-to-be-in-when-they-get-the-quest-Space'. Also, they didn't give a time for the return trip
Likewise, in The Heart of the Enemy (and now, about 13 years since I ran the module, I finally get the pun
- me dumb!) travel times are given from the Armada Constellation to Shadowspace (about 3 weeks, or 2d4+10 days in the Flow), from Shadowspace to Moragspace (about 1 week or 1d4+5 days), and from Moragspace back to the Constellation (about 3 weeks again).There may be more, but I haven't found them yet.
So we've got three useful travel times, and several more that require assumptions about where the PCs are when they start the adventure.
Charles
I think it's more a matter of the phlogiston currents changing than the spheres themselves moving apart.
In fact, the Spelljammer boxed set said the exact opposite:
"In general, it takes 10-100 days for intersphere travel. Over time the spheres do shift positions relative to each other (thus the random time for moving between spheres) but the courses of the rivers almost never change. Some spheres drift into and out of proximity to each other so a particular sphere may not be accessible every time. A sphere with a variable chance of accessibility, if it is out of position, can still be reached on a direct route - that is by not following the rivers. To travel this way is very slow - to such a degree that it is faster to take an alternative route along the river past one or more different spheres and thus arrive in a roundabout way."
In fact, the Spelljammer boxed set said the exact opposite:
Obviously I was misremembering, then.
Wyvern
Obviously I was misremembering, then.
Wyvern
THen what causes the flow? Your presence in the phlogiston? That would suggest they have left the door open to some other idea...yet to be developed.
If the resistance you experience in travelling in one particular direction is the result of you being there then that is just weird.
I included the AIF into my "master map of the spheres".
So... do you have a master map of the spheres? Could you share it here?
I would be interested in seeing a phlogiston map.
THen what causes the flow? Your presence in the phlogiston? That would suggest they have left the door open to some other idea...yet to be developed.
If the resistance you experience in travelling in one particular direction is the result of you being there then that is just weird.
I have no idea what any of that has to do with my post which you quoted. I thought that the Spelljammer boxed set said that currents in the Flow shift from time to time; rip pointed out that what it actually says is that the currents are stationary while the spheres sometimes drift relative to one another, so obviously I was misremembering.If you're asking what causes the currents in the phlogiston, I would assume they're a natural phenomenon, analagous to ocean currents (but obviously not exactly the same). As far as I can see, nobody has suggested that the currents are caused by the presence of travelers, except you.
Wyvern
THen what causes the flow?
Warm fluid flowing toward cooler regions, I assume.
Imagine that, in the heart of the galaxy, the phlogiston is eternally on fire, burning with the heat of a thousand suns, new phlogiston continually forming in its core. From there it flows toward the galactic rim, disappearing at the void beyond the edge.
Perhaps new galactic cores can form if the phlogiston burns hot enough, part of the galaxy separating and drifting away.
Warm fluid flowing toward cooler regions, I assume.
Actually, I wouldn't go with heat, although I'd use it as a model. The Flow doesn't really have a lot of variation regarding temperature (yes, I know there are references to rare colder areas), but the flow is highly magical in nature. I'd rather go with motion from a highly magical region to a low magic region.
Then the question becomes, what causes this heterogeneity? Does the Flow itself cause it, and what happens to those regions when the amount of magical energy (cf. my own Grand Unified Theory on the "Variables" of the D&D multiverse) drops below (or rises above) a certain threshold? Or is the Flow caused by the heterogeneity, and what is in those regions that is causing the level of magic to be exceptionally high or low? Inquiring minds want to know!
Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Actually, I wouldn't go with heat, although I'd use it as a model. The Flow doesn't really have a lot of variation regarding temperature (yes, I know there are references to rare colder areas), but the flow is highly magical in nature. I'd rather go with motion from a highly magical region to a low magic region.
Then the question becomes, what causes this heterogeneity? Does the Flow itself cause it, and what happens to those regions when the amount of magical energy (cf. my own Grand Unified Theory on the "Variables" of the D&D multiverse) drops below (or rises above) a certain threshold? Or is the Flow caused by the heterogeneity, and what is in those regions that is causing the level of magic to be exceptionally high or low? Inquiring minds want to know!
Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Um, Crystal sphere formation? Actually now i think of it, yes. Formation of the greyspace crystal sphere causes a flow to it, then the formation of crystal sphere x further along causes further extension of the same flow further down the line...
Crystal Sphere Formation Theory
Yes, stars can be many things. Holes in the sphere itself are one of the things that they can be (and often are).
Ok, I just thought that stars are many things actual stars, balls of hot gas, and other stuff. but that the phlogiston was transparent as well and stars were stars in other crystal spheres, which are also transparent.
Ok, I just thought that stars are many things actual stars, balls of hot gas, and other stuff. but that the phlogiston was transparent as well and stars were stars in other crystal spheres, which are also transparent.
That's my favourite interpretation for the way Mystara's crystal sphere would work. Most crystal spheres are not transparent, and more poetic/magical explanations exist for their "stars".
In "Under The Dark Fist", Vulkaran has a senile spider tending to a map of the Spheres.
Another way to interpret Mystara's crystal sphere is that it makes both crystal spheres (itself and that of other solar systems) and the phlogiston itself, invisible. Stars in the Mystaran night sky are, quite literally, the suns of other capaign worlds. Under this interpretation, Mystara would be about the only system that would have a decent view of the entire galaxy.
(Coming late to this discussion...)
I am sure that I read something very much like this in a late Spelljammer product (iirc). It was a bit of a retcon, but I very much liked it. The idea was that, from the surface of a planet, all Crystal Spheres were transparent and filtered out the phlogiston, making it invisible. Some stars in the heavens were indeed the suns of other Spheres. The closer you got to the Sphere wall, the more opaque it became.
Can't remember for the life of me where I read this (and I have looked several times over the years). Anyone else recall where this comes from???
Show
It also featured the sphere of Truespace, an enormous crystal sphere with different physical laws housing multiple stellar systems, including the possible homeworld of the illithids.
Sounds like Dawn of the Overmind the last of a trilogy of modules publeshed in accoisiation with Monstrous Arcarna: The Illithiad. It appeared to be a feature of the PC's home sphere (which was unnamed).ShowIt also featured the sphere of Truespace, an enormous crystal sphere with different physical laws housing multiple stellar systems, including the possible homeworld of the illithids.
Athas' crystal sphere is described here.
I don't much like the idea of "closed spheres," personally - they seem an arbitrary way of limiting the amount of fun you're permitted to have out of some misguided loyalty for a setting's "purity." To hell with purity, I say - the game is about exploring, so let the players explore wherever they want.
Oh that site is cool except "Preservers and Defilers" (2445,TSR 1996) Page 10 far left Bracket says that Spell Jamming is not Possible cause the Sphere wall is on the other side of the infinite Grey that will even kill immortals/gods trying to enter the Realm that are lost in it for too long (probably a "lock" via an Overgod type) and the Black (Page 11, far right Bracket, and Page 9) is swimmingly endless as well so Standard Spell Jamming is impossible cause the Grey cuts off the connection to the Astral and Ethereal Planes (and ever reaching the Crystal Sphere for Spell Jamming) and likewise Plane Hopping Spells meet resistance and are more likely to land you in the Grey, then fail, or actually get you in or out (96-100 is success on a 100 die according to the table on page 10, far left bracket...that's 4% chance?)
Oh and the Champions making the Black is cool also,except that on page 9 it is basically Athas' personal demiplane of Shadow that replaces where connections to the Astral and outer planes should been and is filled with the Dead Halflings that supported Rajaat among other "Horrors" and where the "Hallow" prison resides.
Disconnecting a Realm from other Realms and/or the outer planes, astral plane, and blocking even the ethereal plane seems more like a Overgod action trying to keep all the life suckers that could suck the life out of a planet and the Sun IN then a bunch of powerful Wizards trying to keep the Beholders, Gith, and Illithid out (There are Giths and Illithid wondering around in Athas Realm by the way)
Can a crystal sphere be cracked, shattered or broken? And can spelljamming ships get into a closed crystal sphere (like Athas's) in some way?
To answer the Main Question is first to try to clear up what a Crystal Sphere is.....It's a "point of view" when using a Magical Means of travel so it technically does not exist except to Spelljammers using their form of Traveling Magic across a Magical "Side space" known as the Phlogiston so it isn't anything that is actually touchable or destroyable though disconnecting the Realmspace from the Phlogiston thus it losing it's "shpere" in the Phlogiston is certainly possible.
For Athas Realm the "Crystal Sphere" is behind the Grey which itself is infinate and even if you found the ability to somehow magically teleport the Spelljammer to the "Crystal Shpere" horizon which is the Magic boundry that connects the Realm to the "Phlogiston" which is a magical side space like the Astral plane that connects Realms by a "Sphere system"...you would find it Disconnected with no way upstream or down stream to another Realm. Basically Spell Jamming is Impossible in or out at you have about a 70% chance of landing in the Grey if trying to teleport in or out Athas Realm via Plane hopping magic (4% of getting In or out)
In cases like Dragonstar Galaxy the "Crystal Sphere" is a few days away from the Edge of the Galaxy in the blackness of space (it is not a infinate Universe) and for Infinate Realms like our Universe using a Spell or technology is the only way to ever reach the "Realmsphere Wall" to enter the "Side space" known as the "Phlogiston"
In fact, since Spelljamming does seem a lot like a form of glorified Astral Travel you really have to wonder why the "Crystal Wall" is at a certain point in any given Realm and if anyone on anything other then a Spelljammer would even see the humongous gate into the "Phlogiston"
To answer the Main Question is first to try to clear up what a Crystal Sphere is.....It's a "point of view" when using a Magical Means of travel so it technically does not exist except to Spelljammers using their form of Traveling Magic across a Magical "Side space" known as the Phlogiston so it isn't anything that is actually touchable or destroyable
Untrue. In the SJ materials, crystal spheres are never described as anything other than real and tangible objects, and the phlogiston is just as much part of the material plane as wildspace is. If you want to make it into some kind of transitive plane accessible through magic, and turn the crystal spheres into planar boundaries, that's fine (both approaches have their pros and cons in terms of flavor). But I presume the OP was looking for a canon answer, not your personal reinterpretation. (After all, if he didn't care about canon, he could've just made up his own answer.)
Wyvern
Oh that site is cool except "Preservers and Defilers" (2445,TSR 1996) Page 10 far left Bracket says that Spell Jamming is not Possible cause the Sphere wall is on the other side of the infinite Grey
Well, as I said earlier in this thread, it seems like all that does is make things less entertaining.
I can see the benefit in a pure Dark Sun campaign to sealing the crystal sphere in order to keep neogi and giff out of their world.
In a Spelljammer campaign, however, which is all about exploring new crystal spheres and allowing characters and factions to interact in multiple spheres, sealing off a certain sphere seems to do nothing but make Athas's space less usable and less fun.
I'm against that.
I'd also add that A Guide to the Ethereal Plane makes the Gray out to be a variant version of the Border Ethereal, and gives a percentage chance to get through it at any time. So while it's hazardous and difficult to penetrate, it's not by any means impossible to get through it.
I'm not against the Gray acting as a hazard that spelljammer ships have to penetrate, like the Grinder asteroid belt in Greyspace, but flat-out making it impossible to visit and adventure in Athas's wildspace seems like a terrible idea.
Then the "shell size" is the minimum distance one has to be from the center of a solar system in order to make the transition from realspace to "flowspace" and the "rivers" that spelljammer vessals must follow become akin to "jumplines". Travel time becomes a function of the strength and direction of the flow in relation to the strength of the spelljamming helm powering the ship.
The downside of this approach is that you lose the ability to easily justify wildly different universe rules (ala Krynn vs. Toril with level limits, different gods, etc.) unless you start playing with god-concepts by saying they are tied to specific worlds or systems and it is their influence that alters whatever the base rules of reality are to fit their "vision".
In my own SJ game when I ran it I included the above ideas and also added in the concept that a spelljamming vessal couldn't just land anywhere it wanted in a large planetary body. Instead planets would have several or no points where the flow of ether that a SJ helm tapped into for movement was strong enough to allow a ship to land and take off again. Conceptually the idea was similar to islands surrounded by reefs with varying "safe paths" that would allow a ship to reach a beach head. Some of these paths would only be large enough to allow a 5 or 10 ton "lander" while others might be large enough to allow a 100 ton dreadnought.
I incorporated that as a means of explaining why SJ "technology" wasn't being used to revolutionize terrestrial warfare or otherwise ultra-modernize-via-magic a particular setting. It also explained the assumption of limited contact, such as spelljammers landing disproportionately in places like Waterdeep or Greyhawk vs. some other city. Those places had larger "inlets" that allowed for bigger ships to land, and so were a lot less "expensive" or troublesome.
The upshot of all of this is that it is a rework of some of the basic premises of spelljammer, but done in a way that allows for it to interconnect to more settings. Worlds like Arthas could have no real "inlets" and so while there would be spelljammer traffic it would have a much harder time interacting with that sort of world than on like Toril. There very well could be "gods" or god-entities associated with Arthas but ones that aren't interested in mortals and don't care about having mortal clergy or followers.
Untrue. In the SJ materials, crystal spheres are never described as anything other than real and tangible objects, and the phlogiston is just as much part of the material plane as wildspace is. If you want to make it into some kind of transitive plane accessible through magic, and turn the crystal spheres into planar boundaries, that's fine (both approaches have their pros and cons in terms of flavor). But I presume the OP was looking for a canon answer, not your personal reinterpretation. (After all, if he didn't care about canon, he could've just made up his own answer.)
Wyvern
Point was that Spell jamming is like the Traveling Spell on the Bed in "Bedknobs and Broomsticks" v.s. a "World Walk" Spell...with the real advantage being you can go to places you never visited before. And I did note it looks real enough to a Spelljammer crew's point of view but pondered if it would still be "real" outside of the Magic involved in Spell Jamming.
No, I haven't found any Spelljammer Books to collect...yet, But just found
2nd eddition Tour of the Forgotten Realms for 99 cents and 2nd addition Ad&D guide for 99 cents while rummaging through a used book store yesterday....lol
Well, as I said earlier in this thread, it seems like all that does is make things less entertaining.
I can see the benefit in a pure Dark Sun campaign to sealing the crystal sphere in order to keep neogi and giff out of their world.
In a Spelljammer campaign, however, which is all about exploring new crystal spheres and allowing characters and factions to interact in multiple spheres, sealing off a certain sphere seems to do nothing but make Athas's space less usable and less fun.
I'm against that.
I'd also add that A Guide to the Ethereal Plane makes the Gray out to be a variant version of the Border Ethereal, and gives a percentage chance to get through it at any time. So while it's hazardous and difficult to penetrate, it's not by any means impossible to get through it.
I'm not against the Gray acting as a hazard that spelljammer ships have to penetrate, like the Grinder asteroid belt in Greyspace, but flat-out making it impossible to visit and adventure in Athas's wildspace seems like a terrible idea.
So the GREY is a layer of GREYWATER on the inside of the crystal sphere...Breakout PURIFY WATER (or PUTRIFY WATER if you are that way inclined-grey sounds like balance so make a choice of purity or putrid) to pass through.
has also moved another "tick". Stay tuned! Bwaahahahaah!!!Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Spelljammer ship models!!!
Well, as I said earlier in this thread, it seems like all that does is make things less entertaining.
I can see the benefit in a pure Dark Sun campaign to sealing the crystal sphere in order to keep neogi and giff out of their world.
In a Spelljammer campaign, however, which is all about exploring new crystal spheres and allowing characters and factions to interact in multiple spheres, sealing off a certain sphere seems to do nothing but make Athas's space less usable and less fun.
I'm against that.
I'd also add that A Guide to the Ethereal Plane makes the Gray out to be a variant version of the Border Ethereal, and gives a percentage chance to get through it at any time. So while it's hazardous and difficult to penetrate, it's not by any means impossible to get through it.
I'm not against the Gray acting as a hazard that spelljammer ships have to penetrate, like the Grinder asteroid belt in Greyspace, but flat-out making it impossible to visit and adventure in Athas's wildspace seems like a terrible idea.
Heh. Actually, with all the information of the power of the "Lifemasters" (Ancient Halfling Empire on Athas) and how they could suck the life out of their Blue Sun and turning it Yellow, then Rajaat creating life sucking magic to suck the life out of the very planet and using the "Lifemasters" pristine tower to suck the life out of the Yellow sun and turning it Red to empower his Champions......I think someone or something disconnected Athas Realm from the rest of the Crystal Spheres and created the Black and Grey to keep the "Lifemasters' secrets and the CHampions in Athas Realm...not to keep neogi or giffs or anything else "out"
"Cannon Wise" (And I really hate saying that as it is used to often against me when I am trying to think creativly) the Grey makes even immortals (gods) lose all sense of direction, and sucks he life out of immortals(gods), and will eventually irreversably kill them if they wander in the Grey to long, and it not only cuts off the Crytal Sphere but cuts of the Astral Plane (most common interconnected plane) so it is likely the "Overgod of Athas" that problably created the "Grey".
The Dead of Athas eventually end up in the Grey as well and if they aren't reincarnated of Athas they eventually disintegrate to nothing so they Grey acts as kind of a "river of the dead" and holding tank for the life cycles on Athas.
The Black is also strange that the remennce of the "Lifemasters", the Shadow Giants" are in there, the place has the properties of the demi-plane of Shadows and the negative energy of the negative material plane all rolled into one and if you seek "dark secrets" (Like turning into a Dragon) you consult the "Demons" here
Is there a way to connect a stream in the to and from Athas wildspace? Cause there is simpply no Stream to or from Athas which is why "Spelljamming is impossible" even if you reach the Crystal Shpere on the other end of the "Grey".
If we treat the phlogiston as a Destination point in the use of a teleporting Spell so that the Spelljammer will land in the nearest open "stream" near Athas' Crystal Sphere and we use the same Spell to Teleport the Entire ship to the area just beyond the "Grey" inside Athas' Crystal Shpere....it Still is a 4% chance of it going smoothly and not ending up in the "Grey"
Hmmm. Maybe a "wornhole"/gate between some point in Athas' Heavens and near a active stream in the phlogiston?
Temporarily changing my answer to the original question....Lets say that Crystal Spheres are physical things that can be cracked, manipulated and harvested for Spell components
Now lets harvest 2 sheets of the Athas Crystal Sphere both 1000 feet by 1000 feet.
Lets next guild both of them with gate frames and markers then cast the neccesary magic on them to make them a 2 way Gate system attuned to the particular Realms Crytal Sphere...but you Jump from Gate to Gate instead of having to cross the Sphere and Wildspace
Crystal Jump Gate
Alteration
Level 9
v,s,m
Set one near a active 2 way stream in the phlogiston, and the other one in the Heavens above Athas
As the Spell Jammer approaches the Crystal Gate they would do whatever they normally so when reaching the Crystal Sphere wall of a realm....next second they are through the Crystal gate on the opposite side in the set destination.
For Dramatic Appeal the Sensation and Visualization of a Crystal Gate Jump could mimic Buck ROgers (Gate activating and getting at bright, a "wooot" sound as the ship quickly rolls as if "fast forwarded" then the opposite gate brightens up as the ship comes out) or probably more like "Star Gate" (The Surface of the Gate gets "watery" and all the action is inside where you see all the area you would have passed by just barely pass a tube like surrounding...smoothly exiting the "water" as you entered it)
similarly i would assume that getting to and from the crystal sphere is not impossible, just really really difficult.
and on a side note, planar magic does not work in the phlogiston, so teleporting to the nearest flow river is definitely not going to work. if teleportation worked through phlogiston, you'd pretty much be making spelljamming completely pointless, in fact.