Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mulhull Apr 06, 2007 1:29:38	Posted this here as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mechanus Does anyone have the AD&D 2E Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium? It lists three beings known as Mediators, which physically are clusters of geometric shapes, which in game terms have unlimited wishes to keep the plane in balance and have a built in defense mechanism to protect them from any attack, without any conscious effort (thus, they can't be killed) It also says they were created to do this when the outer planes were first forming by the Powers of creation. I'd think these things would even have more power/authority than Primus. They were created (by TSR writers, in this case) before Sigil and the Planescape boxed set, and it mentions something else is at the center of the Outlands/Concordant Opposition instead, 3 light of balance, one for each Mediator, also the 1E manual of planes mentions that the center of CO is an ever changing shape, which can't be entered or damaged in any way, no mention of lights of balance.
#2 gray_richardson Apr 06, 2007 3:05:50	Weird. I had never noticed those before. They look like a handful of D&D dice. Their concern for balance seems out of place for Mechanus. They sound more like lawful offshoots of the rilmani. They function as giant thermostats, keeping all the physical elements of Mechanus in "balance". Their role would seem to be that of janitor, or maintenance men of the gears. Or more like living HVAC equipment, they operate almost as if they were an essential part of the infrastructure. They are said to be very rare. Only 3 in fact. Obviously they are so rare that few have ever heard of them. Perhaps they were made by the aphanacts or by whomever created the gears of Mechanus in the first place. Its always fun to stumble over forgotten chunks of lore like these guys.
#3 Mulhull Apr 06, 2007 5:09:26	Weird. I had never noticed those before. They look like a handful of D&D dice. I guess you have that compendium, I did a google for them, didn't find any pics. They are said to be very rare. Only 3 in fact. Obviously they are so rare that few have ever heard of them. Perhaps they were made by the aphanacts or by whomever created the gears of Mechanus in the first place. They were created by the powers of creation, unless aphanacts is another name for them.
#4 ripvanwormer Apr 06, 2007 11:22:09	Does anyone have the AD&D 2E Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium? Yes. They're also in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix One, and there's an illustration for them there, too. I'm not sure what you're asking, here. The Powers of Creation strike me (and I've said this many times before) as another way of conceptualizing the beings described in the Guide to Hell as the "Twin Serpents," and in the Fiendish Codex II as the Gods of Law - they're beings who brought shape and coherency to the planes, creating the Unity of Rings concept. They created the Outlands by moving out from the primal plane of Law and pressing against the untamed plane of Chaos beyond, imposing form upon it. The myth given for the origin of the mediators is another way - metaphorical, if you like, or just another way of looking at a greater truth - of explaining the origin of the Spire. The Spire banishes all the deities from the center of the Outlands, forcing them to go elsewhere if they wish to retain their powers. The myth says it a little badly, making it sound like they left the whole of the Outlands; that's not true - it's only the center that they're barred from. The Lights of Balance seem to have circled the Spire at some point. Whether they exist in the modern era is doubtful, since it says elsewhere that the Land has no heavenly bodies. But I've occasionally referred to them anyway. Yes, the 1st edition Manual of the Planes portrayed the Spire in a somewhat different way than Planescape did. In many ways, I prefer the 1st edition version. I think the mediators could be better conceptualized as the greatest of the inevitables than as anything connected to the modrons. Dungeon #144 inspired me to connect the mediators to the modrons in one important way, though. As I posted early on the Planewalker forums: Okay, I read the adventure. It was an interesting scenario, based more on diplomacy than combat. I liked it. The NPCs were varied and interesting. After some consideration, I didn't find the idea that diamonds are an integral part of modron creation objectionable. I imagine that Primus, in the Time Before Time, decided to create its servants using, in part, the hardest substance known. Sounds sensible. With its divine powers Primus was able to create as much diamond as it needed, so availability wasn't a problem. Then the Powers of Creation (possibly the same as what other myths call the Twin Serpents) created the Mechanus mediators, beings of nearly omnipotent abilities tasked with ensuring that every aspect of the Clockwork Universe was in perfect balance with every other. They dramatically reduced the amount of diamonds available to Primus, determining that diamond couldn't exceed any other mineral in quantity. As a result, Primus was only able to create enough modrons to staff one enormous realm - a vast number only the One and Prime, and possibly the moignos, was capable of calculating, but still not the infinity that Primus had originally intended. There was a contest of wills between the three mediators and the One and Prime, the latter creating and the former destroying, but ultimately the mediators won. Because Primus is a being of Law incarnate, it cannot change the composition of modrons at this late date. It is not that Primus is unable to change its mind, only that it is unable to go back on its promises, and it had (in retrospect, foolishly) promised the modrons would have diamonds. The vast diamond mine in the Elemental Plane of Earth offers an opportunity to rectify this ancient mistake. While it cannot create more diamonds on Mechanus, it can use diamonds gained elsewhere to make modrons on other planes - even filling the planes with modrons, allowing Law to flourish across the multiverse.
#5 factol_rhys_dup Apr 07, 2007 13:05:11	Hmm... a set of geometric shapes who have the limitless capacity to shape the destiny of the plane? They mediate such contests of wills? Dice. Back in the day, D&D was full of little hidden jokes, and this could be one of those situations where an aspect of the game that received minor mention but is based on an "Easter egg" has persisted and now has to get more serious.