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Do Gods need worshippers

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Mulhull
Apr 06, 2007 2:15:21 Some DM's think they should require them, some don't. Not sure what I'd choose, but what do you think?

AD&D was the first taste of this concept of requiring them I read. I never read a Greek/Egyptian/real world mythology book that said gods required worshippers.

Gods in AD&D requiring worshippers makes them look like chairperson of some huge corporation, rather than not having any needs- with thier customers being thier worshippers, and they just like a mega company can die if they consistently lose "money" There's that faction in Sigil that says for this reason they aren't really deities, just super powerful mortals.

Aren't there also deities in the inner planes called elemental lords, which don't require worshippers at all? I think I read that there are four of them, one for each "pure" element, but on Athas spells are not granted by them directly, but rather the elemental planes. I don't think it would be appropriate for there to be only four and them to have names. I think they should be faceless and nameless, and apathetic like the elements themselves.

Here's a pic of what I think an elemental lord of fire would look like.

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=2728
#2
gray_richardson
Apr 06, 2007 2:44:17 According to the gods rules in 3e, gods do need worshipers and their divine rank is directly tied to the number of worshipers they have.

In most cases, gods die if their worship falls off to zero. At the very least they lose all of their divine power. It is unclear though if they would ever fall below DVR zero. DVR zero quasi-gods or hero gods would not seem to need worshipers, but they have little actual power. It is possible that a forgotten god could persist indefinitely as a DVR zero quasipower.

Some forgotten gods become vestiges. But in most cases, gods that are no longer worshiped wither and die. Their titanic corpse appears in the Astral plane where they may float for all eternity. The god-body calcifies, becomes hard like rock over the ages. Githyanki or other Astral inhabitants build houses and structures on the god island. Sometimes, the island quakes if someone remembers the god's name on the material plane, stirrings of vestigial power within.

As for their divine realms, a god's realm will diminish and evaporate with time until nothing is left. This can be quite traumatic for a god's petitioners who live within the divine realm of a dying or dead god. Effects can range from a gradual fading as every thing becomes slowly insubstantial and ghost-like, to violent storms and quakes and rampaging spirits and monsters as the realm collapses violently.
#3
dwarfpcfan
Apr 06, 2007 8:17:16 that's not true in every case. God's that embody principles independent of worshipers don't need them. These gods usually appear disinterested of mortal affairs and rarely interfere

Good examples would be Boccob who cares little for worship. as the God of Magic, as long as magic exist he just fine, worshipers or not. Another would be Brahma, as the embodiment of existence even if worshipers vanished, the world would still exist thus he would'nt be affected

Other good examples are racial gods like Moradin or Corellon. They existed before their worshipers (In fact, they created theri worshipers) thus nothing precludes that they could'nt have decided otherwise and moved on with their lives ( a hilarious notion when you think about it)

I think it really depends...
#4
Mulhull
Apr 07, 2007 12:31:42
Other good examples are racial gods like Moradin or Corellon. They existed before their worshipers (In fact, they created theri worshipers) thus nothing precludes that they could'nt have decided otherwise and moved on with their lives ( a hilarious notion when you think about it)

I thought they are race creator gods, but they embody other things as well, like Correlon music, and thus you don't need to be an elf to worship him.
#5
zombiegleemax
Apr 07, 2007 12:39:30 Are there any examples of deific beings that we know don't require worship? I think Boccob does; I think overpowers don't, but then, I think they're said never to interfere with mortal affairs. What about the previously-ascended factols of the Fraternity of Order or the Transcendent Order? Did they have worshipers at the time of their ascension, and do they need them now? I know the Transcendent Order has shrines to each of its ascended factols.

Being an American, of course, I'm most familiar with the Abrahamic God. He's supposedly worshiped because it is a moral act to worship him; his personal traits make him synonymous with good. A Buddhist undertakes his devotions because it is moral to do so; understanding the dharma frees oneself from samsara and reduces the amount of struggle and pain in the world. Yet gods of this type don't seem to be represented in Planescape.

I'm less familiar with Hinduism, but it's my understanding that the gods are all what we might be calling incarnations of forces: Trimurti is creation, preservation, and destruction, Lakshmi is beauty, and so forth. One can interact with beauty by creating art, or by praying to its intelligent incarnation to request a favor; either is efficacious, and creating art might be a prayer. A devout Hindu is unlikely to believe that the Preserver, or the goddess of fortune and beauty, might ever fall into decay... but Planescape canon suggests that this is so. My impression of the prayers offered to the Greek and Roman pantheons were simply that these gods were regarded as tutelary and demanding; they offered protection and blessings in exchange for prayers and sacrifice. But would such a covenant be enough to sustain faith of the kind needed to keep a Planescape god alive? Personally, I'd be far more inclined to worship a being that didn't need it, you know?

Out on the planes, where people can visit the realms of the powers and interact more closely with their servants, it seems like this could be a real problem; and if it's necessary for Poseidon to convince people that he is the power of the ocean incarnated, anywhere, when that is not in fact true, that seems to militate for the beliefs of the Athar.

Don't get me wrong, I'm playing a cleric of a dwarven god right now -- in fact, his theology is roughly along Hindu lines (these gods created my race and thus fully encompass everything we can hope to become; insofar as we are capable of understanding morality or the universe, their worship is a moral act). But it's a really good question, and frankly I'd like to know of some beings that can intervene in deific manners (and thus make for an efficacious cleric) but don't require belief to survive. If there are any.
#6
dwarfpcfan
Apr 08, 2007 10:32:29 Jem see my reply of those questions in the other thread of the same name...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mulhull Apr 06, 2007 2:15:21	Some DM's think they should require them, some don't. Not sure what I'd choose, but what do you think? AD&D was the first taste of this concept of requiring them I read. I never read a Greek/Egyptian/real world mythology book that said gods required worshippers. Gods in AD&D requiring worshippers makes them look like chairperson of some huge corporation, rather than not having any needs- with thier customers being thier worshippers, and they just like a mega company can die if they consistently lose "money" There's that faction in Sigil that says for this reason they aren't really deities, just super powerful mortals. Aren't there also deities in the inner planes called elemental lords, which don't require worshippers at all? I think I read that there are four of them, one for each "pure" element, but on Athas spells are not granted by them directly, but rather the elemental planes. I don't think it would be appropriate for there to be only four and them to have names. I think they should be faceless and nameless, and apathetic like the elements themselves. Here's a pic of what I think an elemental lord of fire would look like. http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=2728
#2 gray_richardson Apr 06, 2007 2:44:17	According to the gods rules in 3e, gods do need worshipers and their divine rank is directly tied to the number of worshipers they have. In most cases, gods die if their worship falls off to zero. At the very least they lose all of their divine power. It is unclear though if they would ever fall below DVR zero. DVR zero quasi-gods or hero gods would not seem to need worshipers, but they have little actual power. It is possible that a forgotten god could persist indefinitely as a DVR zero quasipower. Some forgotten gods become vestiges. But in most cases, gods that are no longer worshiped wither and die. Their titanic corpse appears in the Astral plane where they may float for all eternity. The god-body calcifies, becomes hard like rock over the ages. Githyanki or other Astral inhabitants build houses and structures on the god island. Sometimes, the island quakes if someone remembers the god's name on the material plane, stirrings of vestigial power within. As for their divine realms, a god's realm will diminish and evaporate with time until nothing is left. This can be quite traumatic for a god's petitioners who live within the divine realm of a dying or dead god. Effects can range from a gradual fading as every thing becomes slowly insubstantial and ghost-like, to violent storms and quakes and rampaging spirits and monsters as the realm collapses violently.
#3 dwarfpcfan Apr 06, 2007 8:17:16	that's not true in every case. God's that embody principles independent of worshipers don't need them. These gods usually appear disinterested of mortal affairs and rarely interfere Good examples would be Boccob who cares little for worship. as the God of Magic, as long as magic exist he just fine, worshipers or not. Another would be Brahma, as the embodiment of existence even if worshipers vanished, the world would still exist thus he would'nt be affected Other good examples are racial gods like Moradin or Corellon. They existed before their worshipers (In fact, they created theri worshipers) thus nothing precludes that they could'nt have decided otherwise and moved on with their lives ( a hilarious notion when you think about it) I think it really depends...
#4 Mulhull Apr 07, 2007 12:31:42	Other good examples are racial gods like Moradin or Corellon. They existed before their worshipers (In fact, they created theri worshipers) thus nothing precludes that they could'nt have decided otherwise and moved on with their lives ( a hilarious notion when you think about it) I thought they are race creator gods, but they embody other things as well, like Correlon music, and thus you don't need to be an elf to worship him.
#5 zombiegleemax Apr 07, 2007 12:39:30	Are there any examples of deific beings that we know don't require worship? I think Boccob does; I think overpowers don't, but then, I think they're said never to interfere with mortal affairs. What about the previously-ascended factols of the Fraternity of Order or the Transcendent Order? Did they have worshipers at the time of their ascension, and do they need them now? I know the Transcendent Order has shrines to each of its ascended factols. Being an American, of course, I'm most familiar with the Abrahamic God. He's supposedly worshiped because it is a moral act to worship him; his personal traits make him synonymous with good. A Buddhist undertakes his devotions because it is moral to do so; understanding the dharma frees oneself from samsara and reduces the amount of struggle and pain in the world. Yet gods of this type don't seem to be represented in Planescape. I'm less familiar with Hinduism, but it's my understanding that the gods are all what we might be calling incarnations of forces: Trimurti is creation, preservation, and destruction, Lakshmi is beauty, and so forth. One can interact with beauty by creating art, or by praying to its intelligent incarnation to request a favor; either is efficacious, and creating art might be a prayer. A devout Hindu is unlikely to believe that the Preserver, or the goddess of fortune and beauty, might ever fall into decay... but Planescape canon suggests that this is so. My impression of the prayers offered to the Greek and Roman pantheons were simply that these gods were regarded as tutelary and demanding; they offered protection and blessings in exchange for prayers and sacrifice. But would such a covenant be enough to sustain faith of the kind needed to keep a Planescape god alive? Personally, I'd be far more inclined to worship a being that didn't need it, you know? Out on the planes, where people can visit the realms of the powers and interact more closely with their servants, it seems like this could be a real problem; and if it's necessary for Poseidon to convince people that he is the power of the ocean incarnated, anywhere, when that is not in fact true, that seems to militate for the beliefs of the Athar. Don't get me wrong, I'm playing a cleric of a dwarven god right now -- in fact, his theology is roughly along Hindu lines (these gods created my race and thus fully encompass everything we can hope to become; insofar as we are capable of understanding morality or the universe, their worship is a moral act). But it's a really good question, and frankly I'd like to know of some beings that can intervene in deific manners (and thus make for an efficacious cleric) but don't require belief to survive. If there are any.
#6 dwarfpcfan Apr 08, 2007 10:32:29	Jem see my reply of those questions in the other thread of the same name...