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Kargat

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
emjaysmash
Apr 08, 2007 12:19:44 I wanted to know if the Kargat (Azalin's secret police) had anything in the way of ID. Of course it would be silly for them to carry around something like a badge, but maybe there is something (a symbol maybe) that shows rank?
Apoligies if this has been asked before and/or is a stupid question.
-Emjaysmash
#2
humanbing
Apr 08, 2007 13:30:01 In terms of canon, I believe there is no identification system, at least officially. The Kargat seems to be more like a pyramidal structure, with a few overlords commanding lower ranks and the lowest ranks known to their commanders by sight. So the need for actual identification is not that high - and the most powerful Kargat officers would likely be able to deduce an agent's identity through supernatural or magical means anyway.

Note that there is a fair number of humans who make up the lowest ranks of the Kargat... but that there also is a fully-human organization called the Kargatane.
#3
gonzoron
Apr 09, 2007 12:58:57 The Kargat does have sort of an anti-uniform. Gazetteer, Vol 2, describes that chains have a significance in Darkonian culture, signifying commitments and responsibilities. (For example, people wear wedding bracelet chains instead of wedding rings, and important nobles wear chains of office.) In contrast to that, Kargat don't wear any chains at all, signifying that they are "unchained," owing nothing to anyone, other than allegiance to Azalin.
#4
john_w._mangrum
Apr 10, 2007 17:38:53 It's not that they wear no chains at all, it's just that -- unlike public officials and authority figures -- the Kargat have no chains of insignia marking their rank.
#5
gonzoron
Apr 10, 2007 17:43:29 Gotcha. Didn't catch that from the text. Well, regardless of intent, I went a step further in my campaign and had them shun wearing chains at all, as a matter of pride in their position.
#6
ravenloftlover347
Apr 10, 2007 21:14:38 Ummm, I can't be reading this right. So if they have no way of telling members other than appearence, what keeps someone from impersonating a Kargat member?
#7
kwdblade
Apr 10, 2007 22:52:16 The Kargat is supported by the Kargatane, which is a much larger body of people. Sure, you might be able to get away with it for awhile, but you'd end up zombie food in no time.
A fake Kargat officer is more trouble than a real one.

Not to mention, what the hell would be the point? Its not like your flashin' a shiny badge around getting free drinks at the local tavern.
#8
zombiegleemax
Apr 11, 2007 7:55:06
Ummm, I can't be reading this right. So if they have no way of telling members other than appearence, what keeps someone from impersonating a Kargat member?

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some supernatural detection/identification means used, given that the upper echelons are usually no longer human (dwarven/elven/etc.) in the usual sense.
#9
gonzoron
Apr 11, 2007 10:33:17 I think a fake Kargat agent would get the smackdown from Azalin and the real Kargat fairly quickly. Besides, like kwdblade said, even when on official business, I don't think the Kargat flashes a badge and says, "Halt! this is the Kargat! Hands up!" They are more likely to just make you disappear in the night.
#10
humanbing
Apr 11, 2007 12:05:00 Most Kargat higher ups are vampires, and it would presumably be reasonably easy for them to employ supernatural means (hypnotism one of them) to determine the truth.

In the current 3rd edition campaign, rooting out an interloper might simply be as straightforward as telling Azalin that "Agent 43 has been acting a little funny" and having Azalin peer momentarily into his mind and memories. That done, the lich lord could give a metacarpal up or metacarpal down decision and loose the real Kargat against them.
#11
john_w._mangrum
Apr 12, 2007 1:40:58
Ummm, I can't be reading this right. So if they have no way of telling members other than appearence, what keeps someone from impersonating a Kargat member?

Personal recognition is a fairly watertight system, actually.

Seriously, guys, you can't be that unfamiliar with the concept of cell-based organizations.
#12
humanbing
Apr 12, 2007 7:47:18 This runs into problems when you introduce magic into the mix. To take a mundane example, locks and keys and other security systems work fine in a realworld setting, but they start to fall apart in a land where Knock, Invisibility, and Levitate are all available to 3rd-level wizards.

There's a whole slew of magic out there that can alter appearances and other identifiers. Libris Mortis and other sources even have an array of spells that mimick undead qualities.

So although I agree with Mangrum that it's hardly a walk in the park infiltrating a given fantasy organization, I do think applying simply realworld logic to a fantasy setting will only get you so far.

If you take what I've said above as feasible, then it may very well boil down to whichever side has more basic detect magic type spells at their disposal. Of course, you'd still have to study your target's behavior, since there's no magic that will specifically help you replicate that.
#13
zombiegleemax
Apr 12, 2007 7:58:50
Seriously, guys, you can't be that unfamiliar with the concept of cell-based organizations.

We may be badly overestimating the size of the Kargat. (I wonder if the Pinkertons might be a good model for the organizational structure here?)
#14
john_w._mangrum
Apr 12, 2007 17:50:46
(I wonder if the Pinkertons might be a good model for the organizational structure here?)

More like al-Qaeda.
#15
zombiegleemax
Apr 12, 2007 20:58:51 Interesting, mostly because I don't think of them in terms of an internal security organization.
#16
john_w._mangrum
Apr 12, 2007 22:29:21 They aren't, obviously. But what they are is a classic example of a cell-based organization.
#17
zombiegleemax
Apr 13, 2007 9:17:46 Exactly.

Subordinates obey the individual(s) whom they personally know to be their master(s).

If an unknown person comes up and claims to outrank them, that individual had better provide some convincing proof, or risk being seen as an inflitrator/spy. If they were really supposed to heed the commands of this newcomer their current leader would have setup an introduction, or left instructions on how to recognize this individual.

There is zero need for insignia or other identification. The Kargat is a secret police force, they aren't going to congregate in huge numbers or military formations.
#18
humanbing
Apr 13, 2007 12:43:48 That's interesting. In some pre-GC incarnations, I got the distinct feeling of a KGB-like pyramidal organization. Then with the 3.0 and 3.5 versions, the Kargat is much more free form and cell-based. (I can't put my finger on any sourcebooks that say this outright. It may have been a homebrew invention of mine.)

This fits in very nicely with the story, too. Azalin's already been bitten once by a having an over-powerful Kargat leader trying to usurp his throne. It would stand to reason that he prefers to keep the organization divided and flexible rather than structured and monolithic.

This does call into question what Kazandra's nominal title as head of Kargat actually means. Probably not very much at all, if each Kargat cell leader has roughly comparable powers to the next.

In my campaign, a human pyramidal "information acquisition" (read as spying) organization is being slowly subverted by the Kargatane. I had originally thought of this is just a twig on the Kargat branch. But then now that I think about Mangrum's point, it would make a lot of sense. The Kargat can't function as a large, confluent organization, because of the need for secrecy among its leaders. The Kargatane would not suffer so much from this, but their need to keep in contact with the Kargat still requires them to be cell based.

So even a load of physically-puny humans has benefits that the "official" information gatherers don't. In addition to the obvious activity cycle benefits, they also are infinitely more at ease in collaborating and sharing information than the inherently-distrustful Kargat ever would be.
#19
gonzoron
Apr 13, 2007 13:14:50
This does call into question what Kazandra's nominal title as head of Kargat actually means. Probably not very much at all, if each Kargat cell leader has roughly comparable powers to the next.

There's no reason a cell-based organization can't have hierarchy, or even a leader. The low-level cells have leaders, those leaders can each form a cell of 1st level leaders, who know each other, but not each other's cell-mates. Then the 1st level cell has a leader who is part of a 2nd level cell with other 2nd level leaders, etc. This way orders can be passed up and down the chain of command, without any one member knowing anyone other than their cell-mates from two cells. Having too many levels would get unwieldy, but there's no reason why Kazandra can't be the leader of the highest level cell, which would include Beryl Silvertress, the werewolf-ghost guy whose name escapes me, etc. It's also possible that she might be exempt from the cell rules, and is known by all members, or all members above a certain level.

After all, regardless of the hierarchy, it's clear that all Kargat know who Azalin is and (aside for some really low-level cannon fodder like the Kargatane) that they serve him.
#20
ravenloftlover347
Apr 13, 2007 19:14:17 Yes, but if there are splinter cells, couldn't someone infiltrate them? That was all I was asking. Maybe it just comes from seeing too many movies and TV shows where the government or some secret agency has someone join one of these groups to help taken them out from the inside. (What a great plot hook!) Of course, any individuals would be killed if discovered, but they don't call them suicide missions for nothing, do they? Besides, if you're already undead, final death wouldn't scare you much, would it?
#21
kwdblade
Apr 13, 2007 21:35:46 Kazandra is recognized as the de-facto leader, but doesn't hold much power outside of Martira Bay. Most cells currently grudgingly follow her orders, but they do things their own way. Rogue cells are being hunted down ever since Azalin's return, so its benificial to heed her requests. In Azalin's mind, she is the General of the Kargat, but I doubt that means much outside of his head.

Besides, if you're already undead, final death wouldn't scare you much, would it?

And to that, yes, actually, intelligent undead are terrified of 'Final Death' (atleast in Ravenloft).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 emjaysmash Apr 08, 2007 12:19:44	I wanted to know if the Kargat (Azalin's secret police) had anything in the way of ID. Of course it would be silly for them to carry around something like a badge, but maybe there is something (a symbol maybe) that shows rank? Apoligies if this has been asked before and/or is a stupid question. -Emjaysmash
#2 humanbing Apr 08, 2007 13:30:01	In terms of canon, I believe there is no identification system, at least officially. The Kargat seems to be more like a pyramidal structure, with a few overlords commanding lower ranks and the lowest ranks known to their commanders by sight. So the need for actual identification is not that high - and the most powerful Kargat officers would likely be able to deduce an agent's identity through supernatural or magical means anyway. Note that there is a fair number of humans who make up the lowest ranks of the Kargat... but that there also is a fully-human organization called the Kargatane.
#3 gonzoron Apr 09, 2007 12:58:57	The Kargat does have sort of an anti-uniform. Gazetteer, Vol 2, describes that chains have a significance in Darkonian culture, signifying commitments and responsibilities. (For example, people wear wedding bracelet chains instead of wedding rings, and important nobles wear chains of office.) In contrast to that, Kargat don't wear any chains at all, signifying that they are "unchained," owing nothing to anyone, other than allegiance to Azalin.
#4 john_w._mangrum Apr 10, 2007 17:38:53	It's not that they wear no chains at all, it's just that -- unlike public officials and authority figures -- the Kargat have no chains of insignia marking their rank.
#5 gonzoron Apr 10, 2007 17:43:29	Gotcha. Didn't catch that from the text. Well, regardless of intent, I went a step further in my campaign and had them shun wearing chains at all, as a matter of pride in their position.
#6 ravenloftlover347 Apr 10, 2007 21:14:38	Ummm, I can't be reading this right. So if they have no way of telling members other than appearence, what keeps someone from impersonating a Kargat member?
#7 kwdblade Apr 10, 2007 22:52:16	The Kargat is supported by the Kargatane, which is a much larger body of people. Sure, you might be able to get away with it for awhile, but you'd end up zombie food in no time. A fake Kargat officer is more trouble than a real one. Not to mention, what the hell would be the point? Its not like your flashin' a shiny badge around getting free drinks at the local tavern.
#8 zombiegleemax Apr 11, 2007 7:55:06	Ummm, I can't be reading this right. So if they have no way of telling members other than appearence, what keeps someone from impersonating a Kargat member? I wouldn't be surprised if there's some supernatural detection/identification means used, given that the upper echelons are usually no longer human (dwarven/elven/etc.) in the usual sense.
#9 gonzoron Apr 11, 2007 10:33:17	I think a fake Kargat agent would get the smackdown from Azalin and the real Kargat fairly quickly. Besides, like kwdblade said, even when on official business, I don't think the Kargat flashes a badge and says, "Halt! this is the Kargat! Hands up!" They are more likely to just make you disappear in the night.
#10 humanbing Apr 11, 2007 12:05:00	Most Kargat higher ups are vampires, and it would presumably be reasonably easy for them to employ supernatural means (hypnotism one of them) to determine the truth. In the current 3rd edition campaign, rooting out an interloper might simply be as straightforward as telling Azalin that "Agent 43 has been acting a little funny" and having Azalin peer momentarily into his mind and memories. That done, the lich lord could give a metacarpal up or metacarpal down decision and loose the real Kargat against them.
#11 john_w._mangrum Apr 12, 2007 1:40:58	Ummm, I can't be reading this right. So if they have no way of telling members other than appearence, what keeps someone from impersonating a Kargat member? Personal recognition is a fairly watertight system, actually. Seriously, guys, you can't be that unfamiliar with the concept of cell-based organizations.
#12 humanbing Apr 12, 2007 7:47:18	This runs into problems when you introduce magic into the mix. To take a mundane example, locks and keys and other security systems work fine in a realworld setting, but they start to fall apart in a land where Knock, Invisibility, and Levitate are all available to 3rd-level wizards. There's a whole slew of magic out there that can alter appearances and other identifiers. Libris Mortis and other sources even have an array of spells that mimick undead qualities. So although I agree with Mangrum that it's hardly a walk in the park infiltrating a given fantasy organization, I do think applying simply realworld logic to a fantasy setting will only get you so far. If you take what I've said above as feasible, then it may very well boil down to whichever side has more basic detect magic type spells at their disposal. Of course, you'd still have to study your target's behavior, since there's no magic that will specifically help you replicate that.
#13 zombiegleemax Apr 12, 2007 7:58:50	Seriously, guys, you can't be that unfamiliar with the concept of cell-based organizations. We may be badly overestimating the size of the Kargat. (I wonder if the Pinkertons might be a good model for the organizational structure here?)
#14 john_w._mangrum Apr 12, 2007 17:50:46	(I wonder if the Pinkertons might be a good model for the organizational structure here?) More like al-Qaeda.
#15 zombiegleemax Apr 12, 2007 20:58:51	Interesting, mostly because I don't think of them in terms of an internal security organization.
#16 john_w._mangrum Apr 12, 2007 22:29:21	They aren't, obviously. But what they are is a classic example of a cell-based organization.
#17 zombiegleemax Apr 13, 2007 9:17:46	Exactly. Subordinates obey the individual(s) whom they personally know to be their master(s). If an unknown person comes up and claims to outrank them, that individual had better provide some convincing proof, or risk being seen as an inflitrator/spy. If they were really supposed to heed the commands of this newcomer their current leader would have setup an introduction, or left instructions on how to recognize this individual. There is zero need for insignia or other identification. The Kargat is a secret police force, they aren't going to congregate in huge numbers or military formations.
#18 humanbing Apr 13, 2007 12:43:48	That's interesting. In some pre-GC incarnations, I got the distinct feeling of a KGB-like pyramidal organization. Then with the 3.0 and 3.5 versions, the Kargat is much more free form and cell-based. (I can't put my finger on any sourcebooks that say this outright. It may have been a homebrew invention of mine.) This fits in very nicely with the story, too. Azalin's already been bitten once by a having an over-powerful Kargat leader trying to usurp his throne. It would stand to reason that he prefers to keep the organization divided and flexible rather than structured and monolithic. This does call into question what Kazandra's nominal title as head of Kargat actually means. Probably not very much at all, if each Kargat cell leader has roughly comparable powers to the next. In my campaign, a human pyramidal "information acquisition" (read as spying) organization is being slowly subverted by the Kargatane. I had originally thought of this is just a twig on the Kargat branch. But then now that I think about Mangrum's point, it would make a lot of sense. The Kargat can't function as a large, confluent organization, because of the need for secrecy among its leaders. The Kargatane would not suffer so much from this, but their need to keep in contact with the Kargat still requires them to be cell based. So even a load of physically-puny humans has benefits that the "official" information gatherers don't. In addition to the obvious activity cycle benefits, they also are infinitely more at ease in collaborating and sharing information than the inherently-distrustful Kargat ever would be.
#19 gonzoron Apr 13, 2007 13:14:50	This does call into question what Kazandra's nominal title as head of Kargat actually means. Probably not very much at all, if each Kargat cell leader has roughly comparable powers to the next. There's no reason a cell-based organization can't have hierarchy, or even a leader. The low-level cells have leaders, those leaders can each form a cell of 1st level leaders, who know each other, but not each other's cell-mates. Then the 1st level cell has a leader who is part of a 2nd level cell with other 2nd level leaders, etc. This way orders can be passed up and down the chain of command, without any one member knowing anyone other than their cell-mates from two cells. Having too many levels would get unwieldy, but there's no reason why Kazandra can't be the leader of the highest level cell, which would include Beryl Silvertress, the werewolf-ghost guy whose name escapes me, etc. It's also possible that she might be exempt from the cell rules, and is known by all members, or all members above a certain level. After all, regardless of the hierarchy, it's clear that all Kargat know who Azalin is and (aside for some really low-level cannon fodder like the Kargatane) that they serve him.
#20 ravenloftlover347 Apr 13, 2007 19:14:17	Yes, but if there are splinter cells, couldn't someone infiltrate them? That was all I was asking. Maybe it just comes from seeing too many movies and TV shows where the government or some secret agency has someone join one of these groups to help taken them out from the inside. (What a great plot hook!) Of course, any individuals would be killed if discovered, but they don't call them suicide missions for nothing, do they? Besides, if you're already undead, final death wouldn't scare you much, would it?
#21 kwdblade Apr 13, 2007 21:35:46	Kazandra is recognized as the de-facto leader, but doesn't hold much power outside of Martira Bay. Most cells currently grudgingly follow her orders, but they do things their own way. Rogue cells are being hunted down ever since Azalin's return, so its benificial to heed her requests. In Azalin's mind, she is the General of the Kargat, but I doubt that means much outside of his head. Besides, if you're already undead, final death wouldn't scare you much, would it? And to that, yes, actually, intelligent undead are terrified of 'Final Death' (atleast in Ravenloft).