A little backround of the character (We took alot of liberties with official RL story lines) Octavian Weathermay-foxgrove (Currently with the stats Paragon 6/Blessed Palidan 5, BP is out of the Heroes of the Light book.) is that he is the son of Daniel and Alice Foxgrove, born before the twins and the death of Alice. With the reluctance of George Weathermay and the same path of the hunter the twins will eventually take (They are still 10years old.), Jules and Daniel have begun preparing Octavian for his future role as Lord.
As for Ezra, there is alot of different beliefs on her story with the sects, but the common tie is that she allowed her-self to be bound to RL as a protector of the weak and innocent against the children of the night. This act sparked the story idea.
If Octavian becomes the Lord of Mordent a challenge of power with Lord Willfred Godefroy (The current Dread Lord of Mordent and more than likely have to get in line behind Jules.) will undoubtingly happen. If he manages to live then the posed question comes into effect. Can a mortal ask his goddess to back him in making a deal with the dark powersto be bound to a domain as a dread lord to fill the loss of a defeated one. Also having to willingly pass on the mantle to the next paragon would be a factor.The domains themselves generally are formed around the Dread Lords personality, so would a LG blessed character's domain be free from taint? He would have to play by the same rules and be unable to leave Mordent, but be able to close the borders and have a general feel for the land. Would the soil be free from corrupting creatures like treents or elementals? I would assume it would be taxing on any mortal to keep pure with the surrounding domain's darkness pounding at the borders and it would please the Dark Powers more than anything to see another bastion of light again fall to corruption.
My gm for the most part likes this idea, but mostly for an end of game wrap of the character with the possiblity of this concept using the Soviern King prestige class. If anyone has any suggestions feel free to add your comments.
Making a deal with the Dark Powers is an evil act. That alone should cost someone their paladin-hood. It's like willingly asking to work for a drug lord or a terrorist cell. Even if you have good intentions its going to cost you your soul.
I could offer some ideas to your DM about this but generally it violates the 'rules' of the world.
Most likely the paladin would simply be cursed, rewarded with great power and denied with his desire. His desire being to become lord and protect people. Meanwhile, somewhere else, someone is the 'true' lord.
I'd make the true lord the paladin's repressed urges, his dark reflection. Keeping with the theme of Mordent I'd have it so only one soul could be flesh at a time, so the paladin would become a ghost every night while his darker urges take form and have free reign for twelve hours.
I have the basis of the idea laid out, but the true intentions go beyond making a pact. It is more about sticking it to RL itself, more specificly exploiting a possible loop hole. By making such a sacrifice it would be impress a lasting statement to the world that not everything is set in stone. I find it amusing that all the vile creature of the world who are trapped by their own short comings can pull off near impossible feats by side stepping the ever oppressive rules of the domain or just screwing it up even more, but I have yet to hear of a true champion of the light performing even a minor victory that compares to these smoes achievements. I understand fully that the game world is designed around this concept that the deck is stacked and that is why I like it. Allowing your heroes to a glimpse of such a grand victory makes pulling off the impossible more epic or the crushing defeat equally tragic.
Lord Soth (One of my personal favorites. Pride is always a good shortcoming.) didnt even have to try and beat their game. The Dark Powers kicked him out because they were bored with him or over game designer disputes, which ever you want to run with.
My GM had metioned that by doing this it could very well rip Mordent out of the deep etherial and onto the prime plane. The more thought I put into that theory, the more I wonder what true palidan would abandon such a land to save only afew. Lots of possiblities present them selves good both good and bad. Technicly with the Blessed Palidan class feature moral compass, bells and whistles would be going off that the pact would lead to his ultimate downfall.
It is my theory that Ezra herself did not fully comprehend the double edge sword she was walking on when she made her pact. The Dark Powers fractionalized her essesnce which resulted in her very different sects of followers.By doing this they crippled her potential to shake up the demiplane beyond afew passing ripples. Leaving it up to her flock to put the pieces back together, if that is even possible.
Perhaps going above the Dark Powers and avoiding such a pact would be the best goal. As a rule, foolish mortals that take on over deity like figures usually get smashed, but you have to bet on the long shots.
Soth got kicked out because the people who created him didn't like him being in Ravenloft ;)
Yeah, what a pain in the butt. I think he fit into Ravenloft just as well (if not more so) than in Krynn.
delusion he still has the sheer willpower to go head first into his goal.
The first post is really hard to read with all those empty lines...
By the book, he scenario you propose is, in theory, completely impossible.
'By the book'. And 'in theory'.
However, its hard to deny that sort of event would make for a great campaign ending. If your DM agrees, I wish you the best of luck - I just hope he makes you work really hard to achieve this.
Also, I find your theories on Ezra to be very interesting.
Paladins by default already get ripped to shreds all the time in Ravenloft. I think if someone who was really and completely good got control of a domain, and the Dark Powers didn't do anything about it, then the other dreadlords would.
Think about it, why would they want to be reminded of their failings like that?
Another upheaval is the scale of what this might amount to. Dread Lords across the board would feel a change (I'd image "What the @#$% was that?!" would be the first thing to cross their lips.). For the most part I agree, things would start crawling out of their holes toward Mordent or sending their monkeys to do the dirty work. Some of the Dread Lords could very well care less, "The idiot trapped himself and I am trying to get out. Let him rot like the rest of us." might be their train of thought.
make scry checks on the palidan's location with a reduction of (DC=15-palidan's combined level and blessed palidan class) which was a a 7 at the moment in Falkavnia. In addition the palidan can make a scry on the Dread Lord (DC=25-palidan's combined level of palidan and blessed palidan class) which was a 13. Both Drakov and I scryed on eachother at the same moment, least to say it was an uncomfortable moment, and were shocked to see the person we just dined with the day before. Needless to say we made it out of Falkavnia without to much trouble and quite a long story that is beside the point.
The second Dread Lord I have discovered was in Dementlieu while attending a book reading event by an author who wrote about the plights of poverty in Falkavnia. In which he studied while he lived there for about a year in disguise. Dominie d'Honaire was in
attendance and scryed on me, which resulted in me scrying on him. We were introduced and 1 of 5 members of my party became charmed by him.
The fun never stops!
I also remember reading somewhere that if a Darklord is destoyed, and no suitable canidates are available for Darklordship, then the domain starts acting funky. Landscapes change overnight, it rains in winter and snows in summer (sometimes at the same time) etc etc... which might also hamper the goals of this particular paladin.
Or you might just give the Dark Powers a big ol' "WTF mate?".:D
With all the posts, I'm surprised that no one has brought up the reality wrinkles of celestial beings in RL.
I'm missing the connection, how would they play into this?
One other problem with the "paladin usurps lordship" scenario is that the Dark Powers could always opt to boot a darklord-slaying hero out of their playground,
Why would they choose to do such a thing?
Normally, that's true. However, the real basis for the players' interest in doing this (i.e. having a paladin usurp darklordship) is apparently a desire to intentionally mess with the Dark Powers' agenda for Ravenloft. If the players are deliberately TRYING to get on the DPs' nerves, then saying the DPs don't object to what they're doing is robbing them of the opportunity to do so.
That's quite a good point. Haven't thought of it from that angle.
Normally, that's true. However, the real basis for the players' interest in doing this (i.e. having a paladin usurp darklordship) is apparently a desire to intentionally mess with the Dark Powers' agenda for Ravenloft. If the players are deliberately TRYING to get on the DPs' nerves, then saying the DPs don't object to what they're doing is robbing them of the opportunity to do what they want and accept the consequences.
That could actually get rather ugly. First off, let's assume that the PC is even aware of the true nature of Ravenloft in the first place. In order for him to mess with the DPs' agenda, he'd have to know what it is in the first place. Even then, he'd have no way of knowing if he's simply doing what they want him to and slowly corrupting himself. Since he's a paladin of Ezra, he obviously believes that Ezra is real (whether she is or not is a can of worms for another fishing trip), so he may receive "visions" that are nothing more than the product of his own desire to rock the boat, er demiplane.
For example: "The people of Mordent are all minions of Godefroy who seek to spread his evil throughout the land. They must all die."
Or "George Weathermay/the Weathermay-Foxgrove twins/Van Richten are all servants of the dark powers who travel through the land, murdering innocents and spreading corruption."
Or "Malocchio Aderre can remove darklords from their domains, freeing the people of said domains from their suffering. He must be freed from Invidia."
Or "The key to the destruction of the dark powers lies beyond the Obsidian Gate. Opening the gate will grant you the power to destroy them."
Finally, I fail to understand how a paladin usurping darklordship would in any way upset the DPs. Sure, there may be no sentence that explicitly states that darklords must be evil, but it's implied in almost every Ravenloft book.
Exactly! The intent is to step on toes. To say the DP object or not is clearly out of my hands and really how they react is not the concern. The action itself is a matter of defiance and a statement of willing sacrifice.
Oh, I see. However, they're still more likely to **** off the local darklord than the dark powers, I would think.
1) You'd be able to do it, but don't expect it to be what you want.
2) The dark lords could be a bunch of old men playing yatzee at the local tavern for all you know, so how would you know how to stick it to them?
3) Your dm probably has some dark and sinister plan anyway.
4) The possiblity of a good darklord is possible, but an untainted one isn't. Once again, you only half-win, willing sacrifice or not.
Just keep in mind that even those few that do know about the dark powers (or think they do) and try to defy them, they really never succeed. Sucess is just an alien concept in raveloft.
I'm missing the connection, how would they play into this?
As I understand reality wrinkless (good or evil), they are the radiating spiritual essence of the outsider in question, superimposing their own belief on the spiritual/modifiable fabric of Ravenloft (in short, creating their own pocket domain). This is why celestials and fiends can move about so freely. Not to mention the fact they seem to be able to manipulate the reality of their wrinkle (sometimes to great effect).
Thank you all for your considerations. I'll let you all know how this ends probally some time next year.
As I understand reality wrinkless (good or evil), they are the radiating spiritual essence of the outsider in question, superimposing their own belief on the spiritual/modifiable fabric of Ravenloft (in short, creating their own pocket domain). This is why celestials and fiends can move about so freely. Not to mention the fact they seem to be able to manipulate the reality of their wrinkle (sometimes to great effect).
Erm... noone said anything about outsiders.
Erm... noone said anything about outsiders.
The question was about a GOOD domain lord. Just because there was no mention of creature type doesn't mean it couldn't be addressed. To me, celestial reality wrinkles qualify as a domain type.:D
Outsiders with reality wrinkles are NOT true darklords. They can approach and interact with genuine darklords (*cough* Gentleman Caller & Gabby *cough cough*), they are not afflicted with omnipotent curses by the Dark Powers, and -- most tellingly --they are capable of leaving the demiplane if they can find an exit, same as any other outlander.
I was under the impression, IIRC, that a certain Carnival leader couldn't leave RL (I can't remember her name). Besides, look at the constraints she has to operate. Most of them, I believe, are inflicted by the DPs, such as the flyers that announce Carnival's arrival. Those flyers appear whenever she nears GC--alerting him to her arrival and therefore letting him escape at his option. The fact that she cannot catch up to him to stop his evil once and for all seems to be a very powerful curse. (If that isn't a curse, then I don't know).
On the flipside, fiends are tempted by the land-powers and potentially bind themselves to the demiplane. The fact that most of fiends seem to chafe being on the demiplane seems to be a potent curse (albeit a mental one as it appears most DLs' curses are). This chafing actually pushes some of them to get these new powers in the mistaken belief that it will help them escape
On a similar note, do you think that any celestial would actually leave after seeing the suffering that the mortals of demiplane experience. The aforementioned celestial doesn't see the Twisting as her curse but a form of deserved justice. It is the suffering of these celestials that seems to delight the DPs as much as the mortal suffering does.
Sorry for the ramble. In my campaign, I've always viewed reality wrinkles as a domain format (is that a proper term?:D ) and, hence, I believed qualified for an answer to the question.
What confuses me poses the next two questions.
Can 2 fiends pocket domains ever over lap or do they have to have semi-causal conversations from a distance?
Are celestials and non-fiend outsiders such as a native from Mechinus subject to the same fiend pocket domain RL rules or is a the role of DR always waiting to be filled?
Can 2 fiends pocket domains ever over lap or do they have to have semi-causal conversations from a distance?
The answer is yes, since an actual darklord can enter a reality wrinkle (albeit they'll lose their connection to their domain).
Are celestials and non-fiend outsiders such as a native from Mechinus subject to the same fiend pocket domain RL rules or is a the role of DR always waiting to be filled?
Outsiders with a moral alignment descriptor (e.g., Good or Evil subtypes) gain reality wrinkles unless they either a) also possess the Mists subtype or the native subtype or b) bind themselves to a mortal (such as in the case of familiars).
So yes, celestials gain reality wrinkles but a Modron wouldn't. Also, in one of the Ravenloft books (PHB and 3.0 setting book, I believe), there's a sidebar describing reality wrinkles.
I was under the impression, IIRC, that a certain Carnival leader couldn't leave RL (I can't remember her name).
Isolde can't leave Ravenloft because her celestial superiors forbade her to do so, not because the Dark Powers are keeping her there. Agreeing to stay permanently in the Land of Mists was part of the terms of their permitting Isolde to pursue the Gentleman Caller (and her own single-minded quest to vanquish him) into a realm where Good has so little influence.
If you look at the older products, they repeatedly state that if an outsider (or an elemental for that matter) is summoned to Ravenloft, it can leave if it can find an exit. So does p. 106 of the RLPHB, for that matter! And the same table that says fiends become more and more bound to the land, as they acquire land-based abilities, also establishes that they do have at least some chance to leave -- something a darklord NEVER has, barring deliberate ejection by the DPs -- right up until their Corruption Point total tops out.
Isolde's staying has nothing to do with being a darklord, and everything to do with Upper-planar politics.
Besides, look at the constraints she has to operate. Most of them, I believe, are inflicted by the DPs, such as the flyers that announce Carnival's arrival. Those flyers appear whenever she nears GC--alerting him to her arrival and therefore letting him escape at his option.
The constraint that she remain in human form was also imposed by Isolde's superiors. The flyers are the Dark Powers' doing ... but so what? It's just as plausible that they send the flyers because they have plans of their own for the GC (like, say, setting Azalin off on another wild-goose-chase of an escape attempt), and don't want him getting killed before he's served their purposes.
If the DPs has created the Gentleman Caller in the first place, it might be another story. But Isolde had hunted him in vain -- always just a little too slow to catch him, always just a little too close on his heels for him to stop running -- long before either one of them had ever heard of Ravenloft ... indeed, long before the demiplane (which is only ~400 years old) came into being. If it's a "curse" that she's unable to catch him, it's one that predated Ravenloft itself.
The fact that most of fiends seem to chafe being on the demiplane seems to be a potent curse (albeit a mental one as it appears most DLs' curses are).
Chafing at being in Ravenloft isn't a "curse", it's just business as usual. ALL outlanders, mortal or fiend, dislike being trapped there; there's nothing personal about that, and personal is what a true darklord's curse is all about.