Lunar Women:
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/hb/hcm1.htm
Living Statue War
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/hb/hcm2.htm
Are these modules exclusively published in Hebrew, or did they have english counterparts?
They look distinctively Classic D&D in style. Are they set in Mystara?
Intriguing!
Havard
I wonder if there are any new monsters.... :D
Wow, I've never heard of these- How do you dig this stuff up?
I wonder if there are any new monsters.... :D
The TSR Archive is wonderful for finding out about OOP D&D products:
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/index.htm
I thought I had looked through all of those relevant for Mystara ages ago, but apparently, I missed those Hebrew ones.
Monsters, yeah...would be interesting!
We need Ohad/Morphail I think...
Havard
There's a little more information on them at the Acaeum. I'll see what else I can dig up.
Says they're set in "the Dream World" on the continent of Symslvch. Maybe the Dream World is the Spirit Realm or some other Outer Plane.
I just noticed these:
Lunar Women:
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/hb/hcm1.htm
Living Statue War
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/hb/hcm2.htm
Are these modules exclusively published in Hebrew, or did they have english counterparts?
They look distinctively Classic D&D in style. Are they set in Mystara?
Intriguing!
Havard
I don't know about the living statue war, but I still have the old "lunar women", or "Neshot Hayareach" in hebrew. It's a horribly stupid module, set in some random world that seems to be seriously stupid and lacking in most areas, not in mystara at all.
Lunar women were published originally in hebrew, back when Geva Peri had the rights to do that (his company got the rights from TSR ).
For example : The GOLDSHITTER, yes, the Goldshitter. Oh my god. Its a monster that ***** gold to lure adventurers. Yes, and I payed money for that. Other than that its full of shallow encounters and silly+deadly riddles.
I assume "Living Statue War" is just as bad, if not worse.
A gold...What?!! :D
Havard
Lunar women were published originally in hebrew, back when Geva Peri had the rights to do that (his company got the rights from TSR ).
So it should be considered canon material, after all.
Ok, apart from the gold***tter
, would you mind to summarize for us the plot/encounters of the module you have in possession? Maybe it is possible to save something about it...Thanks in advance!
It also makes me think the Bubble wasn't so bad after all.
Yikes! That monster sounds so awful that it has to be preserved in some manner or another...
It also makes me think the Bubble wasn't so bad after all.
Yes, lets bring the Gold...erm "Producer" into the 3E project.
BTW, I have a few creatures from Arneson's Garbage Pit's of Despair that needs converting. I think I'll have a go at them myself, but if I give up, maybe you could give me a hand?
Havard
Yes, lets bring the Gold...erm "Producer" into the 3E project.
BTW, I have a few creatures from Arneson's Garbage Pit's of Despair that needs converting. I think I'll have a go at them myself, but if I give up, maybe you could give me a hand?
Havard
Sure thing!
The other module is also set in "the Dream Lands" - which seems to be a different setting than Mystara (and definitely not the fairies' Dreamlands!).
I must say I never liked the Hebrew D&D stuff at the time, and found the translated Gazetteers (Karameikos, and perhaps even Ylaruam and Glantri? Cannot recall) to be quite unattractive.
Part of the reason for it, I believe, is that actually Hebrew is not a language that lends itself well to Fantasy. As Jewish/Hebrew mythology (and history, in a way) lacks many of the creatures, weapons, character types etc. which consists fantasy - there is always something which goes
when this genre is translated into Hebrew. There really isn't a word in Hebrew for Elf (the translation of Tolkien called them: "Children of Lilith"!!!), for Gnome, for Mace (just bought my son one in the Ukraine, and couldn't explain to him how it's called) and many many others. The Golem is perhaps the only one thing to fit well...
I just noticed these:
Lunar Women:
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/hb/hcm1.htm
Living Statue War
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/hb/hcm2.htm
Are these modules exclusively published in Hebrew, or did they have english counterparts?
They look distinctively Classic D&D in style. Are they set in Mystara?
Intriguing!
Havard
Other people have already pointed this out...but just to add in, no, these are in the D&D style, but basically the publisher got the license and used their own setting.
Other people have already pointed this out...but just to add in, no, these are in the D&D style, but basically the publisher got the license and used their own setting.
I simply went by the assumption that anything made for Classic D&D (at least Mentzer era and beyond) is considered Mystara, or at least in the Mystara multiverse...
Ofcourse, from the sound of it, there might not be much worth salvaging from these modules. Except the "Goldmaker"...
BTW, there is a fairy tale (Brother's Grim, maybe?) about a donkey which had gold coming out of its behind...maybe this is a take on that?
Havard
BTW, there is a fairy tale (Brother's Grim, maybe?) about a donkey which had gold coming out of its behind...maybe this is a take on that?
Havard
Possible. But I fear that would give the writers too much credit...
Cheers,
Lost Woodrake - still wondering what was the exact Hebrew phrase used for the Goldmaker...
The english expression written phonetically in hebrew letters. Horrible.
Utterly utterly horrible!!!
For a translation, how about taking the Hebrew words and spelling them in an English/Latin manner?
Havard
Mekharben-Zahav.
Or perhaps: Kharban-Zahav?
Both are options, I suppose. Sounds exotic in Latin letters, I must say, but truly lacks grace in Hebrew (but, then again, this is hardly a graceful creature, is it?).
The direct translation, slightly vulgar (as in shitter) would be:
Mekharben-Zahav.
Or perhaps: Kharban-Zahav?
Both are options, I suppose. Sounds exotic in Latin letters, I must say, but truly lacks grace in Hebrew (but, then again, this is hardly a graceful creature, is it?).
Woodrake, there can be no forgiveness here. This thing must fade from memory into oblivion, together with all of Peri's works, for all I care.
No more of this
Havard you dug up something buried in my subconsious memory. and for a good reason!
Not only am I familiar with Lunar Women... I DMed the crappy thing in a convention! It was when I was about 12, so that makes it... hmm 15-17 years ago.
Translation and production of D&D stuff back then was liscensed to the Perry brothers (who I suspect used a photocopier to produce their inferior products). I remember calling one of them (Geva I think) on the phone prior to convention with a question about the adventure, and he said that the other brother is the one that knows wbout D&D specifics...
The adventure is not in Mystara. The entire party is made of female characters, and I remember the players I got didn't like it one bit.
Soon after that, AD&D was translated (with more descent print) and products today are high quality.
I must say I never liked the Hebrew D&D stuff at the time, and found the translated Gazetteers (Karameikos, and perhaps even Ylaruam and Glantri? Cannot recall) to be quite unattractive.
Karameikos was OK (have it) and Ylaruam was not. Glantri was never translated to Hebrew as far as I know, neither were all the other GAZs but I do still have a couple of modules.
Part of the reason for it, I believe, is that actually Hebrew is not a language that lends itself well to Fantasy. As Jewish/Hebrew mythology (and history, in a way) lacks many of the creatures, weapons, character types etc. which consists fantasy - there is always something which goes :ahem: when this genre is translated into Hebrew.I don't quite agree with you here. I think the problem is the people doing the translation and the amount of research they put in. For instance, there is a very good translation of Alice in Wonderland including the song of the Jabarwaq, which is hell to translate...
There really isn't a word in Hebrew for Elf (the translation of Tolkien called them: "Children of Lilith"!!!), for Gnome, for Mace (just bought my son one in the Ukraine, and couldn't explain to him how it's called) and many many others. The Golem is perhaps the only one thing to fit well
Ben-Lilith (son of Lilith, which is simply demon or goblin) is one translation. In another one (of The Hobbit), it is just Elf (with an AIN of ALEF). Gnome is NANAS. Mace is ALAT BARZEL (club of iron), which is the proper name for the weapon- I am sure people in our land were hitting each other on the head with it since before modern English was invented.... The Golem is of course a hebrew creature, but don't forget the Leviathan, Behemoth, Shamir and so on.
I don't think translation sould be word for word. There are no Elves in hebrew folklore, so the name sould remain elf, and refer to the Tolkienesque/German folklore.
As for the Goldshitter... MEGOLELL-PAZ is the nicest word I can think of for it, nice and vague...
Ben-Lilith (son of Lilith, which is simply demon or goblin) is one translation...
I can't say that "son of Lilith" is simply demon or goblin (which by themselves could be preceived as rather different creatures, which Hebrew might fail to differentiate) since this would be ignoring the heavy Kabbalistic meaning that the word "Lilith" (and her sons?) is charged with. While there is a notion of Lilith giving birth to demons, the cultural transference from that to Tolkien's Elves is rather extreme. In a sense, of course, this is what translation could be all about - but I just wished to point that there is such a strong cultural transference.
In another one (of The Hobbit), it is just Elf (with an AIN of ALEF)...
This is also the translation in the DragonLance Chronicles, IIRC. Always found it peculiar, I must say - especially the Ayin, which made it look like a Yiddish word.
Gnome is NANAS...
Again, in lack of such a word in Hebrew - NANAS (which doesn't mean anything really different from Dwarf) was used. This is my point: Dwarf and Gnome are different notions, while NANAS and GAMAD (Dwarf) only differ in height, in their original Hebrew meaning.
Mace is ALAT BARZEL (club of iron), which is the proper name for the weapon- I am sure people in our land were hitting each other on the head with it since before modern English was invented...
Quite true...
The Golem is of course a hebrew creature, but don't forget the Leviathan, Behemoth, Shamir and so on...
Yes, I had Leviathan and Behemoth in mind after I wrote this (I had no idea that the Shamir was used in D&D. Where does it appear?). You're absolutely right here. Perhaps the Magen is also a Hebrew word?
I don't think translation should be word for word. There are no Elves in hebrew folklore, so the name sould remain elf, and refer to the Tolkienesque/German folklore...
Neither do I. I just pointed out on the fact that "there are no Elves in hebrew folklore" and that this poses a problem for the translators (and players, I feel) of fantasy. I did not say that this problem cannot be overcome. Of course it can, and many times has been (some Tolkien translations are very good, including the Sons-of-Lilith one). I do think there is a different cultural mindset here, which needs to be reckoned with. 'Tis all.
As for the Goldshitter... MEGOLELL-PAZ is the nicest word I can think of for it, nice and vague...
Brilliant. Love it.
This is also the translation in the DragonLance Chronicles, IIRC. Always found it peculiar, I must say - especially the Ayin, which made it look like a Yiddish word.
Actually, the official explanation (from the translator) was to reflect Tolkeins use of a V (or was it F?) in the plural form- elV/Fes, dwarV/Fes. The dwarfs (dwarves) in one translation of the hobbit were named GAMADAIM instead of GAMADIM. (I might be getting this backwards, but I am sure that the two versions exist).
Yeah it's kinda silly...
-----
I agree that the modern and Mishanaic hebrew use for Gamad and Nanas is indeed a matter of how high they are (real humans with dwarfism are not called dwarves anymore, it's not PC...:-). But in children songs/tales they are not used interchangely (sp?).
The snow white's seven dwarves are Gamadim. The night gnome is Nanas. So maybe for most people Nanas is a bit more magical...
The Shamir is not found in D&D (yet!) but I remember it was discussed on the MML on Hebrew monsters (I could be dreaming, don't do drugs kids). Hebrew Mystaran content was also discussed for the Shadow Elves (got a bit controversial at the time), and also for Herath and Nimmur. Since Babalonian/Asyrian myths (and the Akkadian language) share a lot with the pre-biblical hebrew myths we can also dig there for Semite material...
Shame Tiamat was taken to Greyhawk and FRealms.
Originally Posted by Morphail_o
As for the Goldshitter... MEGOLELL-PAZ is the nicest word I can think of for it, nice and vague...
Brilliant. Love it.
Thanks
Although I agree with Valentinus about sending Perry's "work" into oblivion...I agree that the modern and Mishanaic hebrew use for Gamad and Nanas is indeed a matter of how high they are (real humans with dwarfism are not called dwarves anymore, it's not PC...:-). But in children songs/tales they are not used interchangely (sp?).
The snow white's seven dwarves are Gamadim. The night gnome is Nanas. So maybe for most people Nanas is a bit more magical...
Interesting. Never thought of it from this direction. I guess I always had in mind that Nanas would work better for Halfling, because of the height thing - but I never took into consideration the possible magical associations of the word (perhaps because I got acquainted with the Night Gnome only as an adult?).
The Harry Potter translations, by the way, translated "Gnome" as "Shedon" (literally: little demon). The range of variations here is indeed vast, and can embody quite different nuances.
The Shamir is not found in D&D (yet!) but I remember it was discussed on the MML on Hebrew monsters (I could be dreaming, don't do drugs kids). Hebrew Mystaran content was also discussed for the Shadow Elves (got a bit controversial at the time), and also for Herath and Nimmur. Since Babalonian/Asyrian myths (and the Akkadian language) share a lot with the pre-biblical hebrew myths we can also dig there for Semite material...
Shame Tiamat was taken to Greyhawk and FRealms...
I recall some of the Shadow Elves discussions here - which were partly very thought-provoking (in the good sense) and partly non-convincing. If there is some Hebrew/Jewish roots to the Shadow Elves (the origin of Rafael's name, the "tablets" of the law, maybe-maybe the notion of a lost homeland and an exilic culture) it is very subtly done.
Herath and Nimmur I know little about. What were the links made?
As for Babylonian/Asyrian myth - there is definitely much to check out there, and I believe that Kabbalah and Folk-mysticism can offer quite a lot as well: how about the Dybbuk (and its variations in other Jewish cultures: "Aslai"; "Zar" - if I am not mistaken) as some sort of Undead? The Samekh-Mem (or Samael) and his companions could be useful as well.
And even the Talmud has a (small) ammount of Fantasy in it - albeit most of it is a variation on Greco-Roman myhtology (sirens, amazons), but I think some of it is "original".
Thanks
I agree. End of discussion on this issue.
Can someone post the stats for this creature?
(And then have Traianus convert it to d20?)
Havard
I recall some of the Shadow Elves discussions here - which were partly very thought-provoking (in the good sense) and partly non-convincing. If there is some Hebrew/Jewish roots to the Shadow Elves (the origin of Rafael's name, the "tablets" of the law, maybe-maybe the notion of a lost homeland and an exilic culture) it is very subtly done.
Herath and Nimmur I know little about. What were the links made?
Well the place names on the Nimmur, Herath and Arms of the Immortals maps are all hebrew sounding, or babbelonian sounding (I have a friend who is an Assyrologist, I can have him take a look...). The names of immortals Idu (ixion alter ego) and Menlil (scorpionmen immortal) also sound semite. Also the Shedu is a bablonian creature (and Endukes were made in honor of Shedus). That's all I can think of right now.
I believe that Kabbalah and Folk-mysticism can offer quite a lot as well: how about the Dybbuk (and its variations in other Jewish cultures: "Aslai"; "Zar" - if I am not mistaken) as some sort of Undead? The Samekh-Mem (or Samael) and his companions could be useful as well.
I don't know much about Kabalah or kabalistic traditions except for what has gotten into popular culture (the Dlbbuk as in the stage play). What are the Aslai and Zar?
Also, I think there are some fantasy sources in Vampire the Dark Ages- Jerusalem by Night. Sadly, no D&Dish monsters IIRC.
What kind of culture do this areas have?
As for Aslai and Zar, to my knowledge they are some version of the Dybbuk (a soul of a dead person possessing a living body) perhaps in Oriental Jewish cultures. But I need to check it out more properly. Read a paper about it long time ago. Be back with more info soon!
Cheers,
LW
Here is what I got about the various possessions in Jewish cultures (the following is mainly a summary of a paper by Yoram Bilu, an Israeli anthropologist):
Dybbuk
Appears mainly in Ashkenazi (East-European) Jewish Culture, although there are several Dybbuk cases reported within Mediterranian communities as well.
The Dybbuk is the spirit of a dead (mainly male) person which possesses the body of a living (mainly female) person (the are some male-male Dybbuks, and hardly any female-male Dybbuks). Many times, this spirit was of an evil person, who finds in the living body a refuge place from punishment over his deeds in the Other World. In the version of the famous play, The Dybbuk, the spirit was of a young man who was in love with the woman he now possesses and was denied marriage with her. After death, he returns to his beloved's body as a Dybbuk.
The symptoms for being possessed by a Dybbuk are convulsions, speech in a strange voice, impulsive behaviour and verbal/physical aggresion.
The Dybbuk is banished in a public ritual by a Rabbi/Kabbalist (sometimes in a synagogue, using ritual objects such as candles, Torah scrolls and ram-horns), who confronts the spirits and demands from it a confession of its prior sins and punishments.
Aslai
The Aslai appears mainly in (South) Morrocan Jewish culture. The Aslai is not a spirit of a dead person - but a demonic entity, or a Djinn. The Djinn world is parallel to our world, and each person also has a Djinn counterpart. They live underground, and are active at nightime.
These Djinn are impulsive, but will attack Humans only if they have been hurt first. They will not care, however, if such an injury was done without purpose. One way of the Djinn to hurt back is to posses the person as an Aslai.
Usually, the immediate reason for an Aslai attack would be stress and anger - caused by fueds with family or neighbors. At first, the possessed person (usually, a woman) loses consciousness - and when she wakes up, she acts in an impulsive, trubulent manner: she might hurt herself or others without noticing. She is very strong and powerful at this moment, for the Aslai is inside her, and many men from the family are needed to restrain her. Verbally, she would scream, shout and curse - including profanities which the woman would not dare to use during her everyday life. She will speak in a voice which is not hers - and perhaps even in a language she does not know. The presence of the Djinn inside her also grants her with prophetic powers, which can be used to unravel mysteries or tell the future.
The possession attacks are usually short-termed, and might end when the woman simply reaches exhaustion. In order to exorcise the demon, the reasons for the possession need to be clarified. Then there is a long process of negotiation, for the cunning Aslai will do everything to stay in the body. At first, there is an attempt to persuade the Aslai to leave - by promising some sort of compensation for the injury the Djinn has sufferred from his victim. Usually, this doesn't work and more forceful means are needed: using mystical Kabbalistic practices. A common method is burning or suffocating the Aslai by putting to flames a blue cloth (with mystical healing formulae written upon it) near the victim's nostrils.
When the demon leaves the body, it will try to cause damage to the limb through which it leaves. Therefore, there will be an attempt to make the Aslai leave through the smallest toe of the left foot.
Zar
The Zar appears in Ethiopian Jewish culture. The Zar are spirits who inhabit a world parallel to the Human one - but different from the Djinn. They may cause a range of diseases, pains, depressions, hysteria and eating disorders. Here, as in the previous cases, it is usually a male Zar who penetrates a female's body. Usually, the motivation of the spirit to enter his victim's body would be presented as a sexual one. The victim would adopt cross-sexual behaviours (according to the gender of the Zar and the victim). Sometimes, a Zar could be transferred in one family from mother to daughter.
The healer would usually be a former Zar-possessed person. The healing process does not involve banishing the Zar (like it is in the case of the Dybbuk and Aslai) - but by pleasing it, and obtaining some sort of relationship with it and living with it.
It is in fact during the healing ritual that the Zar is invited to enter the woman's body - so that communication could be possible, and the Zar could change from foe to friend. The public ritual involves stylized dancing movements. In order to "tame" the Zar, the woman needs to conduct various rituals in her everyday life (making coffee, giving sacrifices, burning incense) as well as join other Zar-possessed people for collective, trance-like rituals. These feminine groups in Ethiopia would become a strong source of social support, especially for women who do not have family members to grant their security (widows, divorcees and single mothers).
This is basically it (probably in a rather simplified manner. I hope I have done no injustice to any of these cultures). Does anyone wish to Mystarize these creatures? While the Dybbuk would be some sort of Undead - the Aslai and the Zar are demonic entities.
And, if we wish to keep some sort of cultural notion - I would place the Dybbuk in Karameikos (and maybe Thyatis and Darokin?); the Aslai in Ylaruam; as for the Zar - which African-based culture could work well with this? And maybe, actually, the non-African Ethengar (because of the spirit world)?
Does anyone wish to Mystarize these creatures? While the Dybbuk would be some sort of Undead - the Aslai and the Zar are demonic entities.
And, if we wish to keep some sort of cultural notion - I would place the Dybbuk in Karameikos (and maybe Thyatis and Darokin?); the Aslai in Ylaruam; as for the Zar - which African-based culture could work well with this? And maybe, actually, the non-African Ethengar (because of the spirit world)?
How about tying the Zar with some Rakasta culture? Maybe one of the older ones.
I like the Dybbuk in the southern Known World. Perhaps there is a connection to ancient Taymora.
The Aslai (curiously similar to Alasiya) may be a legacy of Nithia. Although the Immortals wiped Mystara clean of its memory of that Empire, I doubt they were able to remove all traces of it from other planes.
As for mystarization, we enter a problem. While Od&D Dibbuk is an undead possessing people, D&D3.5 Dibbuk is a Loumera Demon possessing corpses (wierd huh? Fiendish Codex I p36). Which means it does not resemble the mythological Dibbuk but has evily stolen its name (makes sense...).
I think the Zar can be made a creature of the Karimari, while these guys are certainly not Ethiopian (they are some kind of bushmen, very distinct from other human races), the Karimari have a matriarchal society and they also have a unique attitude toward the forces of natire (and Ordana). so the whole, pleasing the demon instead of banishing it works nicely.
Also, a Zar-possessed Karimari riding a triceratops can really shake that part of the peninsula...
Also, I love "Megolel Paz". Makes @#$%ing gold sound romantic, at least in Hebrew.
I'll post some pics of the module and the "Megolel Paz" this weekend, probably. I still have the module, and I read it again. Still crappy. It has another monster in it, a type of powerful female fey (pixie-like) with ties to flowers. I kinda liked that monster, although it was pretty redundant.
Anyway, I remember the "Megolel" was a naga-type monster (with hands), and it had 15HD, and high strength.
Also, I laughed at the "Have Traianus convert it to D20".
Checked out these territories - and, yes, the names do sound rather Semite/Asyrian/Hebrew. Nice.
What kind of culture do this areas have?
Eshu and Nimmur, AFAIK, have a tipical babylonic culture, with Enduks (winged minotaurs) replacing humans at Eshu (and originally Nimmur) and Manscorpions at Nimmur.
For Herath, that's hard to say. It's possible that this have something to do with ancient hebraic people. OTOH, the araneas surely enjoy mimicking other cultures, and this could had come from Nimmur, Taymora or parts of Yezchamenid.
Some aranea pictures show them using ispan-like clothes, however, and some regions (especially litoranean ones) might had started to mimic the espa, verdan, renardois and bellaynish cultures.
Anyway, I remember the "Megolel" was a naga-type monster (with hands), and it had 15HD, and high strength.
Some sort of Yuan-ti, Lamia or Merilith?
AC -1, HD 24**, move 40(12) (meters), atk 3 (2 claws 1 bite), damage
6d6/6d6/4d8+poison (2d10 damage each round until HEAL is cast), no. appearance 1, save ftr 24, morale 10, treasure v+(1d8*1000 gp), AL chaotic, xp 9250.
Looks like a snake with three sets of feet, and a troll-like, humanoid head. It seems to be an ogre-sized creature. Can't speak, although it is pretty cunning.
The second creature is called "Parparit", which means "butterfly woman", and also has some lewd conotations in hebrew. It has 12HD, can wrap itself in a cocoon for the night, has small, deadly daggers (1d12 damage, attacks twice), some druid and magic user spells.
Meh. My scanner isn't working.
Hey, these guys sure have loads of HD. I guess they need that to survive a CM level module, but as silly monsters go, these guys are pretty tough
Havard
I don't really want to lower the tone (the module seems to being a good job of that already) but were there any specific reasons for its nomenclenture, did it have any specific gold producing abilities?
Me not kno wat nomenclature is
Anyway, yes. Gold#$%^#$, גולדשיטר (hebrew), or "poogold" ( I like your name most of all), leaves little pieces of dung that actually look like gold coins. It creates a trail of these to lure victims to its lair. After an hour, the "poogold" becomes actuall poo. I suppose this should count as an extraordinary ability, usable a few times per day (equal to it's con bonus , perhaps ? *vomit*).
Thanks for that. I can just picure it now, Adventurer 1"Look there's a trail of gold coins, I wonder who could have left them",Adventurer 2 "Lets follow the trail", Adventurer 3 "I wonder if its a trap"
Still, no matter how bad those modules are, the Dream Lands and their denizens are best salvaged as having some connection to the World of Mystara.
There are only so many OD&D modules out there...and I say they all deserve a place in Mystara or its Multiverse.
Travis
P.S. I do like how the Hebrew publishers went to the trouble of making a Hebrew version of the "dragon ampersand" in the D&D logo.
1. Its official name in the module is Hebrew: גולדשיטר
2. These Hebrew letters, spelled out phonetically give (something like): /g-o-l-d-sh-i-t-r/. Which, though unmeaning in Hebrew, is obviously a crude phonetic borrowing of the English "goldshitter". (Most Israelis speak English too, so /goldshitr/ sounds crude to them too - which wouldn't be the case if the module's author had chosen to borrow, say, the Chinese word for "goldshitter".)
3. Now, here on the MMB, the Hebrew-speaking fellows are trying to come up with names that have the same meaning as "goldshitter", but are actual Hebrew words, not a phonetic borrowing from English. These include: Mekharben-Zahav, Kharban-Zahav, and Megolel Paz. All three are Hebrew synonyms for "gold-defecator". Based on the list feedback, Megolel Paz sounds the best.
4. And to top it off, our list-members have coined a new English name for the creature which doesn't sound so vulgar: "Poogold"
Is my interpretation of this discussion correct? What a tangle of names!
Travis
Like a moth to a bug zapper, I'll convert these two...creatures. I, however, as a non-hebrew speaker, will need somwone to post the stats and any monster description for the two. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Valentius already did:
"poogold"
AC -1, HD 24**, move 40(12) (meters), atk 3 (2 claws 1 bite), damage
6d6/6d6/4d8+poison (2d10 damage each round until HEAL is cast), no. appearance 1, save ftr 24, morale 10, treasure v+(1d8*1000 gp), AL chaotic, xp 9250.
Looks like a snake with three sets of feet, and a troll-like, humanoid head. It seems to be an ogre-sized creature. Can't speak, although it is pretty cunning.
The second creature is called "Parparit", which means "butterfly woman", and also has some lewd conotations in hebrew. It has 12HD, can wrap itself in a cocoon for the night, has small, deadly daggers (1d12 damage, attacks twice), some druid and magic user spells.
Meh. My scanner isn't working.
Looking forward to seeing what you can make of it Traianus!
Havard
Valentius already did:
Looking forward to seeing what you can make of it Traianus!
Havard
Any physical description (including size) of the Parparit? Also what spells were listed with it? I think I've got enough to go on for "poogold", but I need a little more info for Parparit.
Any physical description (including size) of the Parparit? Also what spells were listed with it? I think I've got enough to go on for "poogold", but I need a little more info for Parparit.
I would have thought tiny or small except for the fact that she has 12HD and her small daggers cause 1d12 points of damage. Not helping much am I? :embarrass
Havard
I don't think there is a reluctance to speak of the silliness, nothing wrong with a bit of that. But I think the creators of these modules did not give them much thought. That is why they turned out silly.
I tried to hebrew-google the Perry bros for you (there are some in the yellowpages, but I guess this is too much of a men-hunt...)
No luck. It appears that the publishing group Mitzuv, is no more. The consulting firm by the same name owned by the same family (Guy is there), doesnt seem to focus on publishing at all these days.
D&D and related fantasy novels are published by another company.
Sorry
Ohad
I am afraid all there is was in the modules you mentioned. Maybe there was more in the home-brewed campaigns of the Perry bros'.
I don't think there is a reluctance to speak of the silliness, nothing wrong with a bit of that. But I think the creators of these modules did not give them much thought. That is why they turned out silly.
I tried to hebrew-google the Perry bros for you (there are some in the yellowpages, but I guess this is too much of a men-hunt...)
No luck. It appears that the publishing group Mitzuv, is no more. The consulting firm by the same name owned by the same family (Guy is there), doesnt seem to focus on publishing at all these days.
D&D and related fantasy novels are published by another company.
Sorry
Ohad
Thanks for all your efforts. I'll use what is already here, and I'll try to fluff it up a bit.
גולדשיטר
The english expression written phonetically in hebrew letters. Horrible.
Valentinus, if you don't mind looking it up, what was the original hebrew word for the parparit?
Valentinus, if you don't mind looking it up, what was the original hebrew word for the parparit?
Parparit is the hebrew word *(IIRC)== פרפרית
Parpar in hebrew (פרפר) means butterfly, so parparit is female butterfly.
It is also slang for someone who sleeps with many people (goes from flower to flower). Which makes the whole thing kinda sad...
Ohad
Parparit is the hebrew word *(IIRC)==
Awesome, thanks.
And then of course, the even more important question: Are there any more new creatures in Living Statues War (HCM2) :D
1) What maps are there in those two modules? Specifically, is there any map of the continent of Symslvch or of the Dream Lands (or is it Dream World?) as a whole?
2) Is "Dream Lands" a translation of the official Hebrew name, or like, "Goldshitr", is it a phonetic rendition of English "dream lands"?
3) If it's a translation, what is the original Hebrew name? If it's a phonetic English borrowing, what would be actual Hebrew for "dream lands"?
In any case, I suggest that the Hebrew name be used as the default, so as to distinguish it from the Dreamlands of the fairies.
Lastly, I wonder if the Dream Lands could be developed as a Hebrew/Jewish-flavored Outer Plane, just as there are Norse-flavored Outer Planes like Asgard, Vanaheim, and Svartalfheim?
Travis
More questions:
1) What maps are there in those two modules? Specifically, is there any map of the continent of Symslvch or of the Dream Lands (or is it Dream World?) as a whole?
2) Is "Dream Lands" a translation of the official Hebrew name, or like, "Goldshitr", is it a phonetic rendition of English "dream lands"?
3) If it's a translation, what is the original Hebrew name? If it's a phonetic English borrowing, what would be actual Hebrew for "dream lands"?
In any case, I suggest that the Hebrew name be used as the default, so as to distinguish it from the Dreamlands of the fairies.
Lastly, I wonder if the Dream Lands could be developed as a Hebrew/Jewish-flavored Outer Plane, just as there are Norse-flavored Outer Planes like Asgard, Vanaheim, and Svartalfheim?
Travis
I can only answer one of these questios. According to this page both modules have maps of Symslvch.
Id be interested in developing the Dream World in some way. I agree that a Hebrew translation would be good as to distinguish it from the Fey home plane. A Hebrew/Jewish flavored plane could be interesting, though I suspect using the Dream World might cause some offense... I am also hesitant in using major current religions too heavily in Mystara, but that all depends on how it is dealt with. I suppose the Testament setting could be used as inspiration for something like this.
I also think some of the elements in the two modules dont sound all that bad. An Empress cursed to have only one child and a thousand year old evil army of living statues awakening to do battle could be interesting...
Havard
A Hebrew/Jewish flavored plane could be interesting, though I suspect using the Dream World might cause some offense... I am also hesitant in using major current religions too heavily in Mystara, but that all depends on how it is dealt with. I suppose the Testament setting could be used as inspiration for something like this.
Despite their crude beginnings, perhaps Symslvch and the Dream Lands can be redeemed. That's a spiffy idea to use Testament*. As far as offending people, the use of the Norse traditions for the Northern Reaches Gazetteer may not be kosher with Asatru folk either. I'm not suggesting that Yahweh be statted up as an Immortal (although that might be interesting...). I'm suggesting that the Outer Plane contain the more fairy-tale like aspects of Hebrew tradition...such as the ones mentioned in previous posts in this thread (golems and such)...and give them a D&D spin and fit them into the Mystaran cosmology. In any case, times have changed, it's no longer the D&D-phobic 1980s. Green Ronin published Testament without being picketed.
Though Hasbro might (or might not) be hesitant to publish a Jewish-flavored product, we as coterie artistes don't have to be concerned if we want to write a Dream Lands Gazetteer.
*http://www.greenronin.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1001&Product_Code=grr1019
Travis
Despite their crude beginnings, perhaps Symslvch and the Dream Lands can be redeemed. That's a spiffy idea to use Testament*. As far as offending people, the use of the Norse traditions for the Northern Reaches Gazetteer may not be kosher with Asatru folk either. I'm not suggesting that Yahweh be statted up as an Immortal (although that might be interesting...). I'm suggesting that the Outer Plane contain the more fairy-tale like aspects of Hebrew tradition...such as the ones mentioned in previous posts in this thread (golems and such)...and give them a D&D spin and fit them into the Mystaran cosmology. In any case, times have changed, it's no longer the D&D-phobic 1980s. Green Ronin published Testament without being picketed.
Though Hasbro might (or might not) be hesitant to publish a Jewish-flavored product, we as coterie artistes don't have to be concerned if we want to write a Dream Lands Gazetteer.
Okay Travis, you got me thinking...
The Dream World - Some ideas:
- I see an M-Israelite Kingdom inspired by the time of King David and King Solomon (The Golden Age). There are plenty of wars, the construction of a big temple, trouble with Giants, people getting beaten to death with Calf-bones, stonings, an eye for an eye, prophets and the like...
- The main patron of the M-Israelites is Khoronus. They are not neccesarily monotheistic since that doesnt make much sense in the Mystara cosmology and the Israelites werent always monotheistic either.
- Two important neighbours of the Israelites were Egypt and Babylon. We already have counterparts for these on Mystara. What if Nithians and Alphatians established colonies on the Dream World that became independent powers there? They should no longer be known as Alphatians or Nithians, but this would tie the setting closer to Mystara and would justify using those cultural elements over again. The Nithian settlers originally conquered the M-Israelites so they have a history of being slaves. The DW-Nithians worship Noumenna. The DW-Alphatians worship Alphatia. They may or may not be building a gargantuan tower...
- A neighbouring realm of hostile giants as a tribute to Goliath.
- The empress from HWCM1: I originally figured she was the leader of the M-Israelites, but I'd like to keep them as Kingdom. The Empress could just as easily be the Empress of the DW-Alphatians?
- The army of Living Statues: I dont know what background HWCM2 offers for this ancient evil army, but I could easily see this as being something the Nithians set up.
- Golems and other mythological creatures mentioned in this thread along with the Melagol Paz and Parapit should be common monsters.
What else?
I agree with you: This should be seen as a rewrite of the Dream World setting. We can imagine ourselves as editors being handed the HW modules going : "Meeh...oh well I suppose there are some things here we could use..."
PS: GRR's D20: Testament is an excellent sourcebook. Well worth checking out for a project like this.
Havard
Okay Travis, you got me thinking...
The Dream World - Some ideas:
- I see an M-Israelite Kingdom inspired by the time of King David and King Solomon (The Golden Age). There are plenty of wars, the construction of a big temple, trouble with Giants, people getting beaten to death with Calf-bones, stonings, an eye for an eye, prophets and the like...
- The main patron of the M-Israelites is Khoronus. They are not neccesarily monotheistic since that doesnt make much sense in the Mystara cosmology and the Israelites werent always monotheistic either.
- Two important neighbours of the Israelites were Egypt and Babylon. We already have counterparts for these on Mystara. What if Nithians and Alphatians established colonies on the Dream World that became independent powers there? They should no longer be known as Alphatians or Nithians, but this would tie the setting closer to Mystara and would justify using those cultural elements over again. The Nithian settlers originally conquered the M-Israelites so they have a history of being slaves. The DW-Nithians worship Noumenna. The DW-Alphatians worship Alphatia. They may or may not be building a gargantuan tower...
- A neighbouring realm of hostile giants as a tribute to Goliath.
- The empress from HWCM1: I originally figured she was the leader of the M-Israelites, but I'd like to keep them as Kingdom. The Empress could just as easily be the Empress of the DW-Alphatians?
- The army of Living Statues: I dont know what background HWCM2 offers for this ancient evil army, but I could easily see this as being something the Nithians set up.
- Golems and other mythological creatures mentioned in this thread along with the Melagol Paz and Parapit should be common monsters.
What else?
I agree with you: This should be seen as a rewrite of the Dream World setting. We can imagine ourselves as editors being handed the HW modules going : "Meeh...oh well I suppose there are some things here we could use..."
PS: GRR's D20: Testament is an excellent sourcebook. Well worth checking out for a project like this.
Havard
Well, since Testament has been brought up as a good resource for this, I'd also recommend looking at Hamanuptra (the Egyptian Mythic Vistas) for the Nithia inspired foes (might be nice if the two weren't identical), and possibly looking at the Hittites for the "Goliath" culture.
Travis
I like those ideas mentioned. I wish I had the skill, means, time, and will to self-publish TSR-quality books...there's a whole lot of new Mystaran titles I'd like to see.
I know.
Not everything needs a book though. A one page writeup and the monsters converted will help lots.
What we really need for this project is names. Names for the Plane and the kingdoms as well as some important political figures (rulers etc).
A map really would be nice too...
Havard
Chalowm Chedel
Chalowm 'Erets
OR
Chalowm 'Adamah
???
Travis
Dear Hebrew-speakers, would the name of the plane be something like:
Chalowm Chedel
Chalowm 'Erets
OR
Chalowm 'Adamah
???
Keep in mind that the Plane is called Dream World, not Dream Lands. A Hebrew English online dictionary told me: עולם הדמיון
Now, how that would be spelled in the latin alphabet I have no idea. The reverse translation, interestingly read:
maya, world of imagination
Here is the dictionary I used:
http://www.milon.co.il/
Havard
More questions:2) Is "Dream Lands" a translation of the official Hebrew name, or like, "Goldshitr", is it a phonetic rendition of English "dream lands"?
3) If it's a translation, what is the original Hebrew name? If it's a phonetic English borrowing, what would be actual Hebrew for "dream lands"?
I am quite sure it was the hebrew words (Artsot HaChalom ארצות החולום)In any case, I suggest that the Hebrew name be used as the default, so as to distinguish it from the Dreamlands of the fairies.
Lastly, I wonder if the Dream Lands could be developed as a Hebrew/Jewish-flavored Outer Plane, just as there are Norse-flavored Outer Planes like Asgard, Vanaheim, and Svartalfheim?
Travis
Well, the original advantures were not hebrew/jewish based or inspired, just generic non-mystaran dnd.
I think Mystara has a few semitic place names and inspirations (I think of Nimmur here like we said before). Also the Shadow Elves as hebrews was suggested.
I don't no what a jewish Asgrad would be like... maybe the place would be where phanatic passive aggresive mothers go when they die...;)
Travis
I just noticed these:
Lunar Women:
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/hb/hcm1.htm
Living Statue War
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/hb/hcm2.htm
Are these modules exclusively published in Hebrew, or did they have english counterparts?
They look distinctively Classic D&D in style. Are they set in Mystara?
Intriguing!
Havard
what does HCM stand for?
what does HCM stand for?
I would guess, "Hebrew Companion Module."
--Ray.
I would guess, "Hebrew Companion Module."
--Ray.
Without any other suggestions I'll go with that then.
Without any other suggestions I'll go with that then.
That's the assumption presented by the Acaeum as well
Havard
That's the assumption presented by the Acaeum as well
Havard
fair enough, it's good enough to be getting along with at least