“Where do I come from?”. It is a question asked by nearly every sentient creature. Let us explore realms of history that even the vast majority of Immortals did not experience.
Immortals are magical beings of great power. Once they were mortal beings, they ascended to a higher level of existence. Each must undertake quests worthy of Immortality and please an Immortal sponsor. Immortals exist because of the mysterious powers connected with the Spheres. The struggle to increase the influence of an Immortal’s Sphere of Power is paramount to all other goals they may have. One of the ways to achieve this is to have new and worthy Immortals join the ranks of their Sphere.
And here we find the grand calling of humankind…
Long ages ago a group of Immortals allied with a megalith called Urt (Mystara). They begin to create and develop life forms upon it. Many events occur after this, even some which threatened all that they had created. A truce was declared, and many rules and protocols that govern the Immortals interaction with life on Urt were laid down on a site to become the City of the Immortals. An era of prosperity was ushered in on the planet, and many Immortals create and nurture their own life forms.
There is but one element lacking on Urt; prospective candidates for Immortality. Oh, there were some, perhaps one or two every millennia, but this was far too few. Granted, Immortality is not easy. The Immortals were proud of the races they had crafted, but they were just not up to the challenge, and it takes a lot out of an Immortal to create a race of beings; let alone a race that could quest after Immortality themselves.
Then the notion was entertained; perhaps many could achieve what one could not. What if a group of Immortals came together to create a race with truly gifted potential? A race that no Immortal could claim as their own; where they could chose which Immortal to serve and which to counter. And who had this notion? Ironically, it was one who later left the multiverse – Luca, a neutral Immortal of the Sphere of Time.
He spoke to a few of the leaders among the Immortals and convinced them to enter into this great project. Each Immortal would impart some of themselves into this creation, leaving their own fingerprint as it were. The only caveat was that every Sphere had to be involved and neither Law nor Chaos could have an advantage. However, although Entropy was represented, it was agreed that Evil could not participate and that Good and Neutral must be equally present. And so the group called the ???? was formed. It consisted of:
Luca, a neutral in Time, brought his deep understanding of life to the group. It was also he that ensured humankind possessed their great versatility and added to them a sense of honour.
Ixion, neutral good in Energy, he gave to humankind the potential to be heroic, to shine in an hour of darkness. It was Ixion who enforced the fairness policy in selecting Immortals into the group.
Korotiku, chaotic good in Thought, endowed humankind with wisdom and cleverness, and just a little hint of trickery.
Odin, lawful good in Thought, built into them the ability of leadership and the understanding of rulership. He also placed the desire to live together in groups and to live fully.
Pax, neutral good in Thought, did his best (in conjunction with his love, Thalia) to place a desire to live in peace into them.
Thalia, lawful good in Energy, gave humankind the gift of art and harmony.
Tyche, chaotic neutral in Thought, wanting them to be diverse, placed on them the mark of chance, destiny, and luck; both good and bad.
Verthandi, neutral in Time, showed them how to learn from the past – from what they experience. She did not begin the idea of creating this race but knew, it was a part of the new struggle that Odin and Hel would have to go through. As one of the Norn, she also knew that this would consume her in some way. (see Marco’s description of Odin.)
Urd, neutral in Matter, and the second of the three Norn, she also had an idea of her fate but offered Humankind the appreciation of the present.
Valerias, chaotic good in Matter, is responsible for Humankind’s passion and love. Ironically, she fell in love with the humans love customs and affairs.
Simurgh, neutral good in Time, gave them health and a desire to protect each other.
Fugit, lawful neutral in Time, bestowed Humankind with good memories, as well as the tradition of oracles and awareness of powers greater then themselves.
Skuld, neutral in Entropy, last of the Norns and selected to represent entropy due to her otherwise neutrality, it is to her that Humankind may attribute their often short lifespan.
Zugzul, the betrayer. It was in this group that his true nature was revealed to Ixion – for he believed Zugzul to be a neutral in Energy. It was Zugzul that tipped the good-neutral balance by introducing evil, giving Humankind a hidden thirst for power and conquest. Ixion has never forgiven him to this very day.
For variety and diversity, three distinct versions of Humankind were created, and then placed on Urt. A dark-skinned group was placed on a large island near the equator. They became known as the Tanagoro and their island was named Zyxl. A copper-skinned group was placed around a large bay amidst the eastern continent called Skothar and they were known as the Oltecs. The last group, the tanned-skinned Neathar, was placed on the western continent called Brun. And the rest, they say, is history.
I've also been looking into Mystara's history (as I'm sure some of you know I love) to figure things out. I believe I have a workable theory for the human's early migrations from the beginning points I gave above. Hopefully I'll post more about it in a couple of days.
I'd really like to be able to have a solid history progression through discussions here on the boards. Anyhow, I need to sleep now... badly ;)
Havard
, and was not created. As opposed to dwarves, elves, ect. ect. who are specifically described in the canon material as divinely created.Or am I totally wrong?????
Er, I always thought that the humans on Mystara evolved
Or am I totally wrong?????
Actually, dwarves, elves and halflings were not created -- they were modified from existing races, at most: specifically, modern dwarves were "created" by Kagyar by modifying existing Blackmoorian Kogolor Dwarves. The elves might have been born from the Eldar, an earlier species that split into the Gold Dragons and the Elves (this is according to the Dragonlord trilogy, IIRC, and not confirmed elsewhere).
Luca, a neutral in Time, brought his deep understanding of life to the group. It was also he that ensured humankind possessed their great versatility and added to them a sense of honour.
Ehm... is it possible to change the Immortal involved with this role? "Luca" is the Italian word for the name "Luke", and it seems quite silly to me: the same as if the humans were created by "John".
For variety and diversity, three distinct versions of Humankind were created, and then placed on Urt. A dark-skinned group was placed on a large island near the equator. They became known as the Tanagoro and their island was named Zyxl. A copper-skinned group was placed around a large bay amidst the eastern continent called Skothar and they were known as the Oltecs. The last group, the tanned-skinned Neathar, was placed on the western continent called Brun. And the rest, they say, is history.
To be honest, it seems form the canon that the Tanagoros come from Skothar, the Oltecs from southern Brun and the Neathars from northern Davania (or central Brun, who knows). I know that these are not the most logical places for their placement, but most of the offcial material suggest this original disposition of the three races.
Actually, dwarves, elves and halflings were not created -- they were modified from existing races, at most: specifically, modern dwarves were "created" by Kagyar by modifying existing Blackmoorian Kogolor Dwarves. The elves might have been born from the Eldar, an earlier species that split into the Gold Dragons and the Elves (this is according to the Dragonlord trilogy, IIRC, and not confirmed elsewhere).
I also like the Mystaros theory that the original dwarves were evolved from Brute Men as Kagyar himself was originally a Brute Man.
I don't like Mystaros' theory about the elves that much (created from Yuan-Ti by Ordana), and I consider the theory about elves and Dragons from the DL trilogy to be a false, just a myth followed by Dragon cults among the elves.
In fact I like the idea that Demi-humans are in fact called that because they were all evolved (magically ofcourse) from humans.
I also like to think that humans evolved, but likely there was Immortal interference along the way which works well with what Hugin suggested.
Havard
Considering Mystara is in a Universe where other habited systems exist (the Alphatians for starters...) I would suggest that GATE TRAVEL and other happy accidents is the reason, while places like Toril, Greyhawk ect are in little Pocket universes. All with humans, there would be a common point from which they all come.
Your options are increasingly down to A CLONEBANK or SPELLJAMMER SPACE.
OPTION #3: IMMORTALS who dissapated their existance into the universe so they might rise to immortality for a second time.
Frankly this is all too Stargate...how did humans or every other race spread beyond one planet to so many. GATE MAGIC.
Considering Mystara is in a Universe where other habited systems exist (the Alphatians for starters...) I would suggest that GATE TRAVEL and other happy accidents is the reason, while places like Toril, Greyhawk ect are in little Pocket universes. All with humans, there would be a common point from which they all come.
Your options are increasingly down to A CLONEBANK or SPELLJAMMER SPACE.
OPTION #3: IMMORTALS who dissapated their existance into the universe so they might rise to immortality for a second time.
Note that Toril, Greyhawk and Spelljammer are not considered Canon Mystara.
The only example we have of humans existing outside Mystara itself is Alphatia as you mention. I have a theory about the Alphatians originally hailing from Blackmoor (Stargate style, yeah).
But one theory I like about explaing why the rest of the Mystaran Universe, may also be revealed to contain similar races and creatures as Mystara is because all the worlds were popuated by the creations of the Immortals and they tend to like certain "models" that they stick with wherever they go...
Havard
.... The only example we have of humans existing outside Mystara itself is Alphatia as you mention....
Havard
Well, of course, you also have the humans from the F.S.S. Beagle (is that linked to Star Frontiers -- not sure, on that one...), and the New Averoigne humans from the alternate earth of Laterre.
Maybe your reference is more specific than I'm catching, here, Havard. There are probably also references in the M-modules series and probably the Immortals box rules and the IM modules. I wonder if anyone has ever tried to make an all-encompassing list of all references to "off"-Mystara lifeforms (not native or initially having an origin somewhere other than Mystara). One could also make cases for oards and other creatures from other planetary (outer space) sources. Anyway, I'm just commenting and am probably getting off-topic.
I like the idea of the Immortals creating a race to assume their places. Rather forward-thinking of them, since I don't think they procreate the same as humans, right? interesting thought that may have not been elaborated upon before, though it probably doesn't matter.... If Immortals want "offspring," they just create creatures or races, right? But then, their offspring are not full-fledged immortals. But, as in much science fiction, it's rather humano-centric (egotistical), and I don't like canon answers for "where everything came from," though many DMs would need to use (or create their own) such information for the larger mysteries of their universes. (For example, the Dragonlord trilogy idea of the gold dragon/elf offshoots doesn't sit well with me, as it is.)
Just my two cents.
Er, I always thought that the humans on Mystara evolved, and was not created.
Canon suggests that humans have a rather sudden appearance on Mystara around 6000 BC. It is true that brute-men existed before this. I'd say they were created by an Immortal who tried to copy another human species from another world. That's one possibility.
Actually, dwarves, elves and halflings were not created -- they were modified from existing races, at most: specifically, modern dwarves were "created" by Kagyar by modifying existing Blackmoorian Kogolor Dwarves. The elves might have been born from the Eldar, an earlier species that split into the Gold Dragons and the Elves (this is according to the Dragonlord trilogy, IIRC, and not confirmed elsewhere).
More examples of how Mystara seems to have creatures that were either created or altered.
Ehm... is it possible to change the Immortal involved with this role? "Luca" is the Italian word for the name "Luke", and it seems quite silly to me: the same as if the humans were created by "John".
I understand. He seemed to be such a great fit though, having in his portfolio origins of life.To be honest, it seems form the canon that the Tanagoros come from Skothar, the Oltecs from southern Brun and the Neathars from northern Davania (or central Brun, who knows). I know that these are not the most logical places for their placement, but most of the offcial material suggest this original disposition of the three races.
This is what I've been examining for the past few weeks in pretty good depth, and what got me thinking about the origin of humans on Mystara. Canon has the populations as you state, but at a much later time than their apparent arrival of 6000 BC. I have figured that the Tanagoro had migrations to the old Tangor bay (where they may have gained their name?) by 4000 BC using the north equatorial currents. They also landed on north-western Davania via the equatorial counter-current. (More details on migrations to come that will hopefully show how this all works out well).
In fact I like the idea that Demi-humans are in fact called that because they were all evolved (magically ofcourse) from humans.
This is how I view evolution for Mystara as well, creatures are altered (by whatever means). It may be possible that Urt was resposible for very early species.
Frankly this is all too Stargate...how did humans or every other race spread beyond one planet to so many. GATE MAGIC.
But one theory I like about explaing why the rest of the Mystaran Universe, may also be revealed to contain similar races and creatures as Mystara is because all the worlds were popuated by the creations of the Immortals and they tend to like certain "models" that they stick with wherever they go...
Gates are definately not needed. As Havard points out, Immortals have seen humans elsewhere in the universe and used that model. Odin had contact with a human race in the Dimension of Myth and I'm sure others had similar encounters. Trees appear all over the universe and even in other multiverses but they didn't gate around.
I thought the story integrated several points that I liked:
- why humans are so diverse and versatile.
- why humans seem to be more likely to be Immortal candidates.
- why humans have so many and so varied Immortal patrons; the 'free-for-all' attitude Immortals have in regards to gaining human followers.
- why they suddenly appear around 6000 BC after many other races and yet manage to be fairly dominant.
- integrates Marco's description of Odin, the previous Ragnarok, and the renewed struggle between Hel and himself.
- why humans began as three distinct groups in three seperate regions and then blended, as opposed to appearing in one region and growing distinct.
- why the Immortals give Mystara so much attention
Personally, I've always felt that the Immortals emerged from the sentient races, not the other way around.
Very true. Humans, however, are a relatively new race on Mystara. I don't mean it to sound as if the Immortals only look to humankind for Immortal candidates now because that is certainly not the case. They just have a greater aptitude to become candidates - not Immortals necessarily, but candidates, and that is what the Immortals were looking for.
BTW, I have not come up with a good name for the group (ala WotI) that was formed to craft Mystara's humans. Any thoughts?
P.S. I almost forgot to mention that I also want to use this to track the religious and philosophical developments of humans through their history. I think that it will be very intriguing.
Well, of course, you also have the humans from the F.S.S. Beagle (is that linked to Star Frontiers -- not sure, on that one...),
Not connected to Star Frontiers, at least not explicitly. Also, its debatable whether the Beagle crew is human- their skin is noted to appear green under the light of Mystara's sun (which is why they were able to subvert the Froggies), but it isn't whether that's because they aren't human or what have you. It seems to point at some difference between them and the humans of Mystara, though.
As for extraterrestrial humans, these are the ones I know of offhand:
- Alphatians (who may or may not be from the same plane, depending on which source you prefer)
- Laterrans (from a different dimension)
- Eloysians (module M4, a different plane)
- Egyptians that the Immortal Bast spent a lot of time with (who may or may not be the RW Egyptians or Laterrans)
- Aelosian humans and demihumans (IIRC, Aelos is supposed to be another planet in the Prime, but it could possibly be a different dimension or plane- I'd have to double check)
- "Planet Earth" humans from module IM1: The Immortal Storm (modern day Earth in an outer plane)
- Norse humans (Gaz7's Outer Planar Midgard)
I'm sure there are plenty I'm missing.
Just a couple of comments:
1) Yeah, you are right, there are plenty of humans elsewhere in the cosmology. I deliberately didn't include races that were from other dimensions, as I see those as different realities and thus should in some way reflect eachother. Even so, there were a few I forgot about that probably don't originate from Mystara. So, I think the idea that Immortals steal ideas from eachother and use models that work elsewhere. Maybe because they are trying to copy what they remember from the place where they themselves once were mortal? Who knows. Still, I like the conclusion that this would mean it would be likely to encounter the same kind of races on many worlds in the Mystaran Galaxy and the Multiverse. It saves us as DM's from alot of work too!
2) Did humans appear out of nowhere? The X-Men movies had some quote about "some times evolution makes a leap...". I'd say these leaps are called Immortal intervention on Mystara. Humans may have evolved from Brute Men, and have been created by Immortals. Same thing happened to dwarves, elves and halflings, probably. I'm guessing evolving a race is much easier than creating thousands of individuals from scratch, hoping that they will survive as a race.
3) I'd say Bastet's Egyptians, Gaz7 Midgard and IM2 Earth are all LaTerre, just to make things simpler.
4) IIRC the idea of the Beagle may have come from the fact that Dave Arneson was playing a Star Frontier game and for some reason they placed his setting in one of the sectors, but I'd say the connection ends at the idea level. Ofcourse, if we wanted to develop the Federation further, we could steal stuff from that game...
Havard
4) IIRC the idea of the Beagle may have come from the fact that Dave Arneson was playing a Star Frontier game and for some reason they placed his setting in one of the sectors, but I'd say the connection ends at the idea level. Ofcourse, if we wanted to develop the Federation further, we could steal stuff from that game...
Hmm.
Scamilles and/or Polymars? = Dralasites
Phanatons = mutant pygmy Yazirians
It is true that brute-men existed before this. I'd say they were created by an Immortal who tried to copy another human species from another world. That's one possibility.
Brute-Men may have been an initial attempt to recreate a human race on Mystara by a single Immortal. It is suggested as a possibility in the HW DM's sourcebook, "perhaps they were some Immortal's first attempt at creating his ideal race, and, once the Immortal had settled on the races he wanted, he let the Brute-Men languish.". The wording suggests those races were "the Neathar, Tanagoro, and Oltec men".
The result can be a reflection on how difficult it is to create a high-capability species and why in most cases a base creature is used and then altered. This theory could be used to explain the numerous anthropomorphic species that are another Mystara theme. Its another argument to support a multi-Immortal co-operative in crafting the Mystaran humans.
Just had another thought that perhaps the Brute-Men (Neanderthal-like) were placed in the Hollow World around 6000 BC to preserve their culture and existence from the humans that began to dominate them. Maybe.
As it turns out the HW DM's sourcebook supports this too.
The X-Men movies had some quote about "some times evolution makes a leap...". I'd say these leaps are called Immortal intervention on Mystara.
This got me to thinking that maybe Urt could be responsible for 'leaps' in a species' development. This provides an 'evolution' feel while still technically adhering to the created or altered ideology. I think this could allow for however anybody wishes their Mystara's history to be.
This theory could be used to explain the numerous animal-like (I forget the proper word ) species that are another Mystara theme.
The word is anthropomorphic, or anthro for short.
Roger
The word is anthropomorphic, or anthro for short.
Roger
Thanks Roger.
This got me to thinking that maybe Urt could be responsible for 'leaps' in a species' development. This provides an 'evolution' feel while still technically adhering to the created or altered ideology. I think this could allow for however anybody wishes their Mystara's history to be.
Does it neccesarily need to be limited to one entity? I could see Urt taking a special interest in this, and perhaps in particular with regards to humans(?) but others could be allowed to do the same?
Entropy OTOH, prefers a more direct approach as shown when Hel created the Beastmen...
Havard
Does it neccesarily need to be limited to one entity? I could see Urt taking a special interest in this, and perhaps in particular with regards to humans(?) but others could be allowed to do the same?
Entropy OTOH, prefers a more direct approach as shown when Hel created the Beastmen...
Havard
Absolutely. I didn't mean to suggest that only Urt was active like this. I was just saying that there are forces outside the Immortals that could be responsible for species, and their variations. Who knows, maybe there are even more beyond these?
I'd like to think that Hel's Beastmen were an attempt to ridicule the creation of humankind by crafting a creature that was crude in comparison and using the reincarnated souls of evil humans. These evil humans were likely those that Hel was able to gather as followers in the ages long struggle with Odin.
It makes sense that reincarnation would be an easier process for an Immortal to do to a creature than to create the soul/spirit aspect of a creature.
Absolutely. I didn't mean to suggest that only Urt was active like this. I was just saying that there are forces outside the Immortals that could be responsible for species, and their variations. Who knows, maybe there are even more beyond these?
Sounds interesting!
I'd like to think that Hel's Beastmen were an attempt to ridicule the creation of humankind by crafting a creature that was crude in comparison and using the reincarnated souls of evil humans. These evil humans were likely those that Hel was able to gather as followers in the ages long struggle with Odin.
This is how I see it as well. I'd add that at least IMC Hel used the souls of both humans and demihumans and the flesh of beasts to forge this race...
Havard
This is how I see it as well. I'd add that at least IMC Hel used the souls of both humans and demihumans and the flesh of beasts to forge this race...
Havard
For sure, eh! This does make me wonder though, does an Immortal have any kind of 'claim' on the souls of those beings that devote themselves to the Immortal. The article Bruce wrote on Limbo seems to indicate some kind of relationship there. Yet another great mystery in the Mystaran Universe.