First of all, here is a list of the Immortals available in the Blackmoor era:
Mystaran Immortals of the Blackmoor Era
Arachne Prime
Bastet*
Demogorgon*
Elemasters* (Each elemaster has a Blackmoor counterpart)
Faunus*
Fugit *
Garal Glitterlode *
Razud *
Gorrziok
Great One *
Hel*
Ixion*
Ka*
Kagyar)*
Khoronus *
Korotiku*
Land*
Luca*
N’grath*
Ninfangle**
Ninsun **
Nyx*
Odin*
Ordana*
Ouranos* (Probably disappeared at this time, but I still managed to find some use for him)
Pax*
Protius
Qywattz*
Simurgh*
Sinbad*
Skuld*
Ssu-Ma*
Stodos*
Terra*
Thalia*
Thanatos*
Tyche*
Urd*
Valerias
Verthandi*
Zalaj
Zugzul*
Arik*
*indicates that I have found a possible counterpart for the Immortal
**I have found two possible counterparts for Garal Glittergold.
The following Immortals have no known Blackmoor counterparts:Arachne Prime
Gorrziok
Protius
Zalaj
Havard
Below I have listed the ZGG deities followed by their suggested Mystaran Immortal identities. Note that for many of these Immortals there is so little information provided that I had to make alot of guesses. This should probably still be considered work in progress:
Thonian Pantheon
Baldin - Razud
Fornaus - Pax
Hersh - Korotiku
Henrin - Ka
Kadis - Ninfangle
Khoronus* -Khoronus
Mwajin - Sinbad
Odir* - Odin
Pacuun -Ninsun
Phellia - Tyche
Sacwyhne - Bastet
Sollus – Ixion
Peshwa Pantheon
Calelrin (evil) – Qywattz
Hadeen (dead) -Ouranos
Hak - Luca
Raelralataen - Zalaj
Yoosef –Ssu-Ma
Evil Pantheon
Elgath (Connected to the Egg of Coot?) - Demogorgon
Tyrhm (Skandahar Patron) - Stodos
Thanatos* - Thanatos
Hella* (Skandahar/Beastman Patron) - Hel
Volketh - Arik
Zugzul* (Afridhi Pantheon)- Zugzul
Dwarves/Gnomes
Charis - Garal
Koorzun - Ninsun
Dhummon – Kagyar
Gorrim (evil) – N’Grath
Hemgrid - Land
Kela -Verthandi
Mieroc - Garal
Pathmeer - Fugit
Shau - Urd
Elven Pantheon
Aeros –Elemaster of Air
Dealth -Skuld
Faunus* - Faunus
Ferros – Ninfangle
Fiumarra – Elemaster of Fire
Hydros –Elemaster of Water
Ordana* - Ordana
Sylvian - Simurgh
Terra* - Terra
Halfling/Docrae Pantheon
Tilla -Thalia
Dragon Pantheon
Chamber (NE) – Pearl (First Pearl Dragon)
Insellageth (NG) – The Great Dragon
Tsartha (N) – Opal (First Opal Dragon)
Havard
Can anyone provide a little info on Immortals like Ninfangle, Ninsun and Luca? I have their basic info from Gary's work, but there really wasn't much to work from there, so I basically just had to guess when assigning them to Blackmoor deities...
Ninsun is from the Masters Artifacts section, I believe, and don't think there is anything else given on him. He might have also been mentioned among the Immortals of the Gold Box set (DM's guide). AFAIK, he is just assumed (like all the Immortals of the Masters set) to be identical to RW mythological figures.
Ninfangle was from IM2- I forget if he's one of the pregens or something else.
Never heard of Luca before the threads of the last couple days.
Interesting- I don't recognize a lot of those ZGG names- are they all from the Blackmoor d20 book, or are some from other sources?
They all appear in the "D20 Dave Arneson's Blackmoor" sourcebook.
Some appear in the DA modules: Zugzul
Some are easily identified as stolen from Mystara: Thanatos, Terra, Ordana, Faunus etc.
Some are taken from the pantheons of Mystara and Greyhawk, but have had their names altered slightly: Odir (Odin), Henrin (Henarin)...
Havard
Never heard of Luca before the threads of the last couple days.
I just discovered Luca recently myself while forming the origins of man theory. Marco has stated that he included every Immortal mentioned in every OD&D product (and thus Mystara) regardless of how little info there was about them. Luca is one of them I guess; maybe from one of the IM# series that I don't have.
The only other thing I can add about gleaning info about Immortals is to look at Marco's Codex Immortalis. Mind you, it isn't easy reading Italian. ;)
I just discovered Luca recently myself while forming the origins of man theory. Marco has stated that he included every Immortal mentioned in every OD&D product (and thus Mystara) regardless of how little info there was about them. Luca is one of them I guess; maybe from one of the IM# series that I don't have.
The only other thing I can add about gleaning info about Immortals is to look at Marco's Codex Immortalis. Mind you, it isn't easy reading Italian. ;)
Happy to be of help!
Yeah, my Italian isn't all that great...
Though I did manage to have a conversation with an old bartender in some small town near San Marion who only spoke Italian. Obviously beer helped.... :P
Havard
Havard
Even though some of these Immortals faded after the Great Rain of Fire or even later, we still have them as part of the Mystaran mythology.
One bit I thought might be a bit controversial was the Dragon Pantheon:
Dragon Pantheon
Chamber (NE) – Pearl (First Pearl Dragon)
Insellageth (NG) – The Great Dragon
Tsartha (N) – Opal (First Opal Dragon)
The main problem here is that the alignments dont fit. Still, I figured we'll have to tweak some things when we are adapting a D20 supplement to Mystara that wasn't specifically written with Mystara in mind (though I'd love to take some responsibility for slipping Dustin (ZGG) a few names like Thanatos, Ordana, Terra etc when they were writing the book....)
Back to the Dragons. Actually with the description, Tsartha would be even better as the Great One, but I have consistantly avoided changing the sex of immortals/Deities in this writeup. Insellageth would have been the previous Diamond Dragon if that were the case. Now, we don't know who that would be. Perhaps he has already been killed at the time of the D20 book. Or we could make Tsartha Lawful. She has always been a protector of Blackmoor so it might fit...
Speaking of Pantheons: I should note that most of the deities are worshipped across pantheons among the people of the North. Almost everyone seems to be honoring Odir (Odin) for instance. The Dragons also have a large following among humans. I like the more categorical presenation I made above though.
Havard
In those cases where there isn't an obvious modern-day counterpart for a Blackmoor-era deity, it might be better to assume the god is an Immortal who isn't presently involved with Mystara anymore, perhaps dead, imprisoned, or simply moved on to other worlds and planes. Surely there are many of those.
That works too. OTOH, for many of those old Immortals we dont really know anything more than the name, so I figured we might actually take advantage of the Blackmoor Sourcebook to flesh out those under-developed immortals too...
Havard
(though I'd love to take some responsibility for slipping Dustin (ZGG) a few names like Thanatos, Ordana, Terra etc when they were writing the book....)
You're in the credits, isn't that enough? ;)
Back to the Dragons. Actually with the description, Tsartha would be even better as the Great One, but I have consistantly avoided changing the sex of immortals/Deities in this writeup.
I wouldn't let gender role get in the way of the matches if ideology seems more consistent in swapping them. Immortals aren't necessarily hardwired to their sense of gender the way mortals are. Nyx, for instance, is worshipped as the (male) Zargos by the Milenians, and even has a male identity in IM1: The Immortal Storm, IIRC. I'm not entirely certain, but I think there are some others who swap gender roles, and some who swap racial roles (such as Protius appearing as the Old Man/Elf/etc. of the Sea).
Only in some cases, where gender seems to play a key role in their ideology/identity would I think it mattered (Kalalla, the nixie Immortal, for instance).
The dragon rulers have had various incarnations over the millenia anyway, with the names Pearl/Opal/Diamond etc. seeming to be more akin to titles than given names.
In those cases where there isn't an obvious modern-day counterpart for a Blackmoor-era deity, it might be better to assume the god is an Immortal who isn't presently involved with Mystara anymore, perhaps dead, imprisoned, or simply moved on to other worlds and planes. Surely there are many of those.
I'm very much in agreement here, at least for those in which a match is difficult and seems forced. Same goes for the dragon gender issue - I'd ignore gender in favour of ideology, as Andrew pointed out.
It would be nice to flesh out some of the lesser known Immortals using the Blackmoor book, even the ones that are no longer around.
You're in the credits, isn't that enough? ;)
I wouldn't let gender role get in the way of the matches if ideology seems more consistent in swapping them. Immortals aren't necessarily hardwired to their sense of gender the way mortals are. Nyx, for instance, is worshipped as the (male) Zargos by the Milenians, and even has a male identity in IM1: The Immortal Storm, IIRC. I'm not entirely certain, but I think there are some others who swap gender roles, and some who swap racial roles (such as Protius appearing as the Old Man/Elf/etc. of the Sea).
Only in some cases, where gender seems to play a key role in their ideology/identity would I think it mattered (Kalalla, the nixie Immortal, for instance).
On the theoretical level I agree. There is no reason why Immortals wouldnt switch genders all the time. OTOH, to me it seems like changing the image of the Immortal too much. Obviously, if everything else were a perfect match I might see it differently...
The dragon rulers have had various incarnations over the millenia anyway, with the names Pearl/Opal/Diamond etc. seeming to be more akin to titles than given names.
Yeah, thats how I see it as well. The Blackmoor Book has three Dragon Deities, so I found it natural to give them some of these roles. Both Tsartha an Innsellageth would work as the Great One if we dont take into account the gender issue. What would count in favor of Tsartha is that she appears as a grey Dragon, which IIRC was also true for the original form of the Great One. Innsellageth is vaguely Gold...
Havard
Hak - Luca
LOL! What leads you to think Hak was a unicellular being? Really, connecting Hak with Luca is IMO worse than not having an equivalent -- I suppose whatever ZGG came up with as a background for Hak can't be as bad ;)
Charis - Garal
This and a few others might not have been around long enough to be worshipped in early Blackmoor.
Fiumarra – Elemaster of Fire
Hydros –Elemaster of Water
I'd rather connect Fiumarra with the Queen of Fire mentioned in the Ierendi GAZ, and therefore Hydros with the Old Man of the Sea (i.e., Protius).
Chamber (NE) – Pearl (First Pearl Dragon)
Insellageth (NG) – The Great Dragon
Tsartha (N) – Opal (First Opal Dragon)
Though Pearl should be Chaotic, since the three Immortals are supposed to be aligned on the L-C axis rather than the G-E axis -- AD&D Mystara MCA even goes as far as allowing Good (but not Lawful) Red Dragons and Evil (but not Chaotic) Gold Dragons.
LOL! What leads you to think Hak was a unicellular being? Really, connecting Hak with Luca is IMO worse than not having an equivalent -- I suppose whatever ZGG came up with as a background for Hak can't be as bad ;)
I seriously doubt Luca is a single celled being, even if that is how he choses to portray himself ;) . He seems to be very interested in the details and formation of life as well as variability; the trait of continually changing in nature, appearance, or behavior. So Luca could adapt his role as necessary.
But that all said, I have no idea what so ever of Hak's ideology.
[Garal] and a few others might not have been around long enough to be worshipped in early Blackmoor.
Good point. OTOH though, it might be nice to include him as a 'new' belief.
I'd rather connect Fiumarra with the Queen of Fire mentioned in the Ierendi GAZ, and therefore Hydros with the Old Man of the Sea (i.e., Protius).
Again I'm with this. It made me realize that Protius isn't represented at all and I think that is very odd. Now I have to check out this Queen of Fire reference. Can you tell me whereabouts to save a little time? Thanks.
LOL! What leads you to think Hak was a unicellular being? Really, connecting Hak with Luca is IMO worse than not having an equivalent -- I suppose whatever ZGG came up with as a background for Hak can't be as bad ;)
Ah. Not only did I overlook that fact, but I seem to have gotten mixed up on their portfolios as well. Hak is the lord of Horses and Travel and often appears as a Centaur. Chiron would have been a good candidate, had he been around at the time...
Garal:
This and a few others might not have been around long enough to be worshipped in early Blackmoor.
True. Especially if we follow Marco's ascencion dates 100%. For Garal, I would propose abandoning his connection with Charis (The Gnome Father), but keeping him as Mieroc, described as a very young Immortal and a patron of gnomes and invention.
I'd rather connect Fiumarra with the Queen of Fire mentioned in the Ierendi GAZ, and therefore Hydros with the Old Man of the Sea (i.e., Protius).
Queen of Fire? Did Marco leave her out? Is she already around at this point?
Using Protius for Hydros is possible and something I have considered, but since lords of all four elements are present in the Elven pantheon, I decided to go with all the Elemasters i this initial writeup.
Though Pearl should be Chaotic, since the three Immortals are supposed to be aligned on the L-C axis rather than the G-E axis -- AD&D Mystara MCA even goes as far as allowing Good (but not Lawful) Red Dragons and Evil (but not Chaotic) Gold Dragons.
Yeah, I dont think shifting Chamber's alignment from NE to CE would be such a big change. I didnt know NG Gold Dragons were allowed, but Insellageth should probably also be shifted to LG if we want to have him as the Ruler of all Lawful Dragons....
Havard
Again I'm with this. It made me realize that Protius isn't represented at all and I think that is very odd.
I agree. I suspect he is worshipped by the Sea people living in the seas near Blackmoor, but he is not represented in any of the land-based pantheons, unless we give him the role of Hydros istead of the Water Elemaster.
Havard
Charis could just as easily just be the Gnome name for Kagyar.
BTW: I noticed that due to error in formating, it looked like the Dwarf/Gnome pantheon had been lumped together with the "evil" pantheon. I fixed that now.
Havard
Queen of Fire? Did Marco leave her out? Is she already around at this point?
Using Protius for Hydros is possible and something I have considered, but since lords of all four elements are present in the Elven pantheon, I decided to go with all the Elemasters i this initial writeup.
I don't know if Marco included the Queen of Fire or not. In the end, it's just a line in the Ierendi GAZ. However, the Elemasters aren't really detailed, and Protius OTOH was around in Blackmoor times, so it's a likely guess for Hydros.
BTW, my current idea for Ferros is that he was the patron of the ancestors of the Belcadiz elves, and died in the GRoF, thus leaving the Belcadiz without a patron (which explains why many of them went to Glantri later and supported the Light of Rad).
Yeah, I dont think shifting Chamber's alignment from NE to CE would be such a big change. I didnt know NG Gold Dragons were allowed, but Insellageth should probably also be shifted to LG if we want to have him as the Ruler of all Lawful Dragons....
Gold Dragons, at least in the Mystara MCA are allowed to be LG, LN and LE.
The same goes for all others (they have a fixed L/N/C alignment, and can take any of the G/N/E alignment), though Reds and Golds are only rarely CG or (respectively) LE.
GP
I don't know if Marco included the Queen of Fire or not. In the end, it's just a line in the Ierendi GAZ. However, the Elemasters aren't really detailed, and Protius OTOH was around in Blackmoor times, so it's a likely guess for Hydros.
And we know he has had followers among elves since forever, so that is another reason to use Protius. I cant find the Queen of Fire anywhere in Marco's work or Gary's translations. I guess he has missed one! Maybe the Queen of Fire is just another name for the Elemaster of Fire (who turned out to be a woman?)
I sorta like having the elves worship the Elemasters in this age though...
hmmm....
I decided to get rid of Sinbad and Ninsun since they reach Immortality in this era, but probably not right away.
I thus made Mwajin (Patron of Sailors) an identity of Protius.
I'm also leaning towards making Pacuun (The Sun Sword) another identity of Ixion.
BTW, my current idea for Ferros is that he was the patron of the ancestors of the Belcadiz elves, and died in the GRoF, thus leaving the Belcadiz without a patron (which explains why many of them went to Glantri later and supported the Light of Rad).
In that case, how would you feel about making Ferros an identity of "Land". Ferros is the patron of the "Element of Metal"...
These are the Immortals whose Blackmoor identities that I am 100% convinced about:
Khoronus -Khoronus
Odir - Odin
Sollus – Ixion
Thanatos - Thanatos
Hella (Skandahar/Beastman Patron) - Hel
Zugzul (Afridhi Pantheon)- Zugzul
Faunus - Faunus
Ordana - Ordana
Terra - Terra
Havard
I cant find the Queen of Fire anywhere in Marco's work or Gary's translations. I guess he has missed one! Maybe the Queen of Fire is just another name for the Elemaster of Fire (who turned out to be a woman?
She's actually referred to as the Mother of Fire in Gaz4 (in a couple of brief paragraphs in the geography section, IIRC). I know it was brought up here on the boards at one point, and I believe Marco even commented on it at the time, but I can't quite recall where it was brought up.
She's actually referred to as the Mother of Fire in Gaz4 (in a couple of brief paragraphs in the geography section, IIRC). I know it was brought up here on the boards at one point, and I believe Marco even commented on it at the time, but I can't quite recall where it was brought up.
Hmmm...no reference to a Mother of Fire either. I'm assuming she is an other identity of the Fire Elemaster.
Is there a particular reason we should not use the Elemasters as having followers on Mystara? Even if they don't seem to have many followers today, this could have been different in the Blackmoor era...
Havard
(Of course, I think it was implied that there were only four- one for each element- and there were several different Elemasters and/or Elemental Immortals in the various IM modules)
In that case, how would you feel about making Ferros an identity of "Land". Ferros is the patron of the "Element of Metal"...
Hey, I'm not Marco ;) -- so I don't really care for Land -- it's an Immortal that doesn't appear anywhere beyond, IIRC, the Gold Box, and has no history or personality. So, to me, making Ferros an identity of Land doesn't add anything to him.
These are the Immortals whose Blackmoor identities that I am 100% convinced about:
Khoronus -Khoronus
Odir - Odin
Sollus – Ixion
Thanatos - Thanatos
Hella (Skandahar/Beastman Patron) - Hel
Zugzul (Afridhi Pantheon)- Zugzul
Faunus - Faunus
Ordana - Ordana
Terra - Terra
Yes, those are quite clear.
BTW, I also prefer to have many Blackmoor Immortals die/fade in GRoF -- thus explaining the large number of young Immortals around, and the relative lack of pre-Blackmoorian ones.
GP
Hey, I'm not Marco ;)
I think I can manage to tell two Italians apart :D
-- so I don't really care for Land -- it's an Immortal that doesn't appear anywhere beyond, IIRC, the Gold Box, and has no history or personality. So, to me, making Ferros an identity of Land doesn't add anything to him.
The good thing about that is that we can do whatever we want with Land! The original alternative was Ninfangle. However, Ferros is a sort of Metal Elemaster and my impression of Ninfangle is that he is more of a Nature/Beasts/Hunting sort of fellow. In the revision I am working on now I have set him up as an identity of Sylvain who represents the wild part of nature...
Yes, those are quite clear.
BTW, I also prefer to have many Blackmoor Immortals die/fade in GRoF -- thus explaining the large number of young Immortals around, and the relative lack of pre-Blackmoorian ones.
Well, many of the ones on my list are no longer around in modern times. At the same time, it makes sense to me that the major players who have always been around would have had some presence in Blackmoor...
Havard
BTW, I also prefer to have many Blackmoor Immortals die/fade in GRoF
Or, perhaps, one or two might be reincarnated as mortals (and may even have attained immortality again) in an attempt to become an Old One.
Regards
Gary
Or, perhaps, one or two might be reincarnated as mortals (and may even have attained immortality again) in an attempt to become an Old One.
Certainly possible!
Note that of the ones I used as Mystaran identities the following are no longer active on Mystara of various reasons:
Fugit
Land
Luca
N’grath
Ninfangle
Ouranos
Pax
Qywattz
Simurgh
Sinbad
Skuld
Ssu-Ma
Thalia
Urd
Verthandi
Zalaj
Havard
(Underlined Immortals are changed entries)
Thonian Pantheon
Baldin - Razud
Fornaus - Pax
Hersh - Korotiku
Henrin - Ka
Kadis - Land
Khoronus* -Khoronus
Mwajin –Protius
Odir* - Odin
Pacuun - Ixion
Phellia - Tyche
Sacwyhne - Bastet
Sollus – Ixion
Peshwa Pantheon
Calelrin (evil) – Aracne Prime
Hadeen (dead) -Ouranos
Hak - Simurgh
Raelralataen - Zalaj
Yoosef –Ssu-Ma
Evil Pantheon
Elgath (Connected to the Egg of Coot?) - Demogorgon
Tyrhm (Skandahar Patron) - Stodos
Thanatos* - Thanatos
Hella* (Skandahar/Beastman Patron) - Hel
Volketh - Arik
Zugzul* (Afridhi Pantheon)- Zugzul
Dwarves/Gnomes
Charis - Kagyar
Koorzun - Ssu-Ma
Dhummon – Kagyar
Gorrim (evil) – N’Grath
Hemgrid - Land
Kela -Verthandi
Mieroc - Garal
Pathmeer - Fugit
Shau - Urd
Elven Pantheon
Aeros –Elemaster of Air
Dealth -Nyx
Faunus* - Faunus
Ferros – Land
Fiumarra – Elemaster of Fire, Queen of Fire?
Hydros –Elemaster of Water, Protius?
Ordana* - Ordana
Sylvian – Ninfangle
Terra* - Terra
Halfling/Docrae Pantheon
Tilla -Thalia
Dragon Pantheon
Chamber (NE) – Pearl (First Pearl Dragon) CE
Insellageth (NG) – The Great Dragon -NG
Tsartha (N) – Opal (First Opal Dragon) - N
Havard
Can anyone provide a little info on Immortals like Ninfangle, Ninsun and Luca? I have their basic info from Gary's work, but there really wasn't much to work from there, so I basically just had to guess when assigning them to Blackmoor deities...
Hi pals, sorry for the long hiatus, but my job literally sucked all my spare time during the last months.. and the trend is not going to improve...
Anyway, since I've got some free minutes before going home, I'm replying to some questions Haavard had about these immortals.
Ninfangle: this comes from IM1, where it is mentioned a certain "Net of Ninfangle", a powerful artifact. I've speculated him to be the first rakasta immortal after Bastet's ascension, a patron of Hunting, Adventure and Bravery among rakastas. He's better known among them than Bastet (due to her later moving away in another dimension before coming back to Mystara) and he's prolly the immortal worshipped by the "wilder" oriental rakastas of Bellayne. He's also known as Nin fang-le :D
The background was entirely made up by me, so you're free to do with it whatever you want.
Ninsun: mentioned only in old Gold Box as creator of one of the artifacts. She's from Sumerian mythology, the mother of Gilgamesh IIRC. In my background, she's the first true Oltec Mage, creator of the Rainbow Path (the magical means used by Oltecs to settle all around the world) and patroness of Oltec scholars and wizards as well as associated with fertility and harvests. She's especially worshipped in Bellissaria and Minaea (where the descendants of the Oltecs are supposed to live) and in some places around the Arm of the Immortals..
Luca: Luca is a common enough name in Italy, it's our version of Luke. One of my players' name is Luca, so using this as the name of an Immortal didn't sound right to me :P For this reason I followed the advice of another fellow gamer (I think it was Lo Zompatore) and took the name as an acronym for Last Universal Common Ancestor (or LUCA). LUCA is therefore the patron of all proteans, the first and simplest lifeform on the Multiverse to have achieved intelligence and earned immortality. Problem is, it didn't develop any further and stood true to its original form and interests. LUCA is not really worshipped anywhere, and its sole goal is to engulf the whole multiverse in protean-materia... pretty weird uh?
In my background, she's the first true Oltec Mage, creator of the Rainbow Path (the magical means used by Oltecs to settle all around the world) and patroness of Oltec scholars and wizards as well as associated with fertility and harvests.
I have been noticing that the Oltecs spread out far faster than the other two human groups and this is a great way of explaining that. This makes for some interesting possibilities in Oltec history, not to mention some long lost artifacts?
Hi pals, sorry for the long hiatus, but my job literally sucked all my spare time during the last months.. and the trend is not going to improve...
Good to see you back Marco! Hope you manage to drop by every once in a while.
Anyway, since I've got some free minutes before going home, I'm replying to some questions Haavard had about these immortals.
Ninfangle: this comes from IM1, where it is mentioned a certain "Net of Ninfangle", a powerful artifact. I've speculated him to be the first rakasta immortal after Bastet's ascension, a patron of Hunting, Adventure and Bravery among rakastas. He's better known among them than Bastet (due to her later moving away in another dimension before coming back to Mystara) and he's prolly the immortal worshipped by the "wilder" oriental rakastas of Bellayne. He's also known as Nin fang-le :D
The background was entirely made up by me, so you're free to do with it whatever you want.
In the latest version, I have dropped Ninsun and Luca from this list. Ninsun is listed as achieving Immortality at a later point. Luca just sounds too weird. Is there any way we could make him less weird? Could a possible alternative name for Luca be "The Ancestor" based on the acronym you mentioned?
Your description of Ninfangle sounds just about perfect for what I have in mind for him as Sylvain. Sylvain represents the wilder parts of nature, beasts and hunting.
Another one I am wondering about is Simurgh. I've placed him as Hak, the lord of Horses. If he doesn't fit, maybe I can use Ninfangle there as well?
Havard
"Long ago, a great roc-like bird appeared to a wandering cleric. The bird said it was Immortal, and had already seen three cycles of life on earth - each ending in destruction by water, ice, and fire. It gave one of its smallest claws (a mere 2 feet long) to the cleric. Explaining its powers, the Mighty Simurgh asked that it be used for the betterment of mankind..."
Patron of horses seems completely wrong for this Immortal. Patron of birds would work.
However, there's a more obvious identity for Hak. Recall the geneology of the centaurs from Tall Tales of the Wee Folk:
"The genesis of the centaurs lies eons in the past. Ixion, the Immortal sun-prince, is said to have impregnated Nephele, a being of the element of air. The child she bore, named Centaurus, was the father of our race. As his father represented the sun and his mother the clouds, Centaurus corresponded to the mists..."
So, most likely Hak is Centaurus. If Centaurus isn't already listed as an Immortal, he should be, as PC1 seems to make him a religious figure with powers beyond his status as an ancestor. Alternatively, Hak could be Ixion. Nephele might be the Elemaster of Air.
Roger
Still another alternative would be that Centaurus isn't any kind of Immortal, just a revered ancestor (and possibly now a servant of Ixion in his outer planar home, or a servant of Nephele in her domain), and Hak is another name for Ixion.
I like the idea of using Centaurus as Hak. Unless I get any protests, I will include him as Hak in my next update.
I agree that having Nephele as an Air Elemaster could work well...
Havard
One idea that could be used here for Centaurus and the centaurs is something like the Great Shedu and the Enduks (and, actually, we do have some racial similiarities here...)
If both races do have something in common, this could not only help to underestand the centaurs, but the enduks as well (what Ixion was planning when created Nimmur, for example)
Anyway, what I made up for Luca was justified by the fact that I wanted it to be as weird as possible, in order not to show up anywhere. That's why it's one of the Immortals not worshipped on Mystara. Mind you, it would have been like having some Immortal guy named George worshipped anywhere on Mystara ("Lo and behold, Children of George!"): not my cup of tea :P
By the way, it seems obvious to me that Centaurus may be the forefather of the centaurs, but not necessarily immortal. In fact, the only immortal centaur is Chiron. If you want, you could make Centaurus an Exalted Being, but not beyond that (else he would have been mentioned as an immortal worshipped by centaurs in PC1).
Immortals can beget children, but they're mortal with NO higher lifespan and NO cool extra-powers: they simply belong to the race of the mortal parent, and MAY or MAY NOT manifest weird physical traits that set them apart because of their divine lineage. But that's all.
Talking about two other immortals mentioned in the thread, I'd like to spend a few more words on Simurgh and Qywattz.
Simurgh: this comes from Master set, as Ripvanwormer already explained. In real world Persian mythology, Simurgh is a gigantic, winged monster in the shape of a bird; a kind of peacock with the head of a dog and the claws of a lion. Its natural habitat is a place with plenty of water. According to legend, the creature is so old that it has seen the world destroyed three times over. In all that time, Simurgh has learned so much that it is thought to possess the knowledge of all ages. In my version of the legend, Simurgh is indeed an ancient being, not even the Immortals know if he has ever been mortal before attaining immortality. Even if he has a homeplane, he is rarely seen there and he vanishes for centuries before reappearing, usually heralding some major catastrophe. Khoronus is his staunchest ally and they cooperate to help mortals and civilizations that survive the catastrophes that befall them without altering the timeflow. Khoronus suspects he is native of Temporal Prime (the dimension of time itself), while other immortals think he may be a messenger of the Old Ones, sent in the Multiverse to correct mistakes when they appear. What is certain is that, despite all his interventions in history and his quests, its power level as an immortal never changed ever since he appeared in the Multiverse millennia ago, and that tells him apart from the rest of the Immortals.
Qywattz: he's the patron of the Neh-Thalggu, the Brain Collectors' god mentioned in that episode of the Voyages of the Princes Ark where Haldemar meets one of these creepy creatures under the swamps of Ator. Now, given the brain collectors' nature and habits, I've made him a different kind of Immortal, totally alien to human and demi-human standards, originally born in the Nightmare Dimension. His sole pourpose was collecting all knowledge in the universe, that's why he began kidnapping the wisest creatures of all kinds and storing their brains in his "library". To help him in his quest, he created a new breed of creatures with powers apt to this kind of job: thus were the neh-thalggu born. THat's why he isn't worshipped on Mystara, solely by his neh-thalggu's followers. As for how he attained immortality, he's the Mystaran version of Vampire: The Masquerade's Tremere, in that he simply diablerized another immortal. :D He imprisoned Ouranos and literally sucked all his immortal essence until he became immortal. Ouranos prolly still exists somewhere inside of him, although trapped and powerless to free himself.
Indeed, I did include a reference to Old Man of the Sea (Protius) in Ierendi, but I left our the other name by which he's referred to, Tethys, and that's my mistake.
As for the Mother of Fire (not Queen!), I don't think it's a new immortal, but I missed to cross-reference her. We've got here two possible solutions: she's either the Elemaster of Fire or another identity of Zugzul.
I do not think she's worshipped by anybody in Ierendi, merely feared and indicated as the opposite of Old Man of the Sea (a sort of manicheistic view of Fire vs Water, Heat vs Cold, but not necessarily Evil vs Good, since the makai know the sea may be treacherous). For this reason she is the embodiment of the wild power of magma and fire, associated with volcanoes and their destructive power. And that's why it would be better to link her to the Elemaster of Fire, rather than another known immortal. Indeed, I speculated that the only people who worship a god of fire are the inhabitants of Honor Island, composed of clerics of Rathanos and Alphatian expatriates followers of Fire, who are split between followers of Rathanos and "atheists" who do not worship the Elemaster of Fire but consider "it" the higher power in the Fire dept.
Another last possibility could be linking the Mother of Fire to Slizzark the Lurker, patroness of the Kopru. This indeed would mimic the rivalry between the koprus, once slave masters of the Sea of Tanegioth, and all the followers of the Old Man of the Sea, true master of the sea and its inhabitants. Give it a thought, coz it's a nice possibility indeed. ;)
Last thought, regarding the list of immortals worshipped in Blackmoor. I do not know what the portfolio of these deities is, since I do not own the sourcebook by ZGG, but I would reconsider using these immortals, since they are really not worshipped on Mystara before a certain moment (if ever) and certainly not outside a certain race: Razud, Land, Bastet, Arachne Prime, N'grath, Fugit, the Norns (Urd, Verthandi and Skuld should always be worshipped as a whole, not separately, IMHO at least
) and the Elemasters (who usually care only for their Elemental plane, which is enough).If you explain better what the portfolio of these deities are, maybe I can give you a hand, Haavard ;)
Razud, Land, Bastet, Arachne Prime, N'grath, Fugit, the Norns (Urd, Verthandi and Skuld should always be worshipped as a whole, not separately, IMHO at least
I agree on this -- except perhaps on the Norns, since Verthandi seems to have a more prominent role than the other two.
As to the Mother of Fire, Zugzul doesn't fit, as he has a typically male aspect -- to the point that, IIRC, the high priestess is considered the god's spouse, and (for the abovementioned reason) neither the Elemental Ruler fits too well.
Slizzark could be an interesting idea, OTOH.
GP
As to the Mother of Fire, Zugzul doesn't fit, as he has a typically male aspect -- to the point that, IIRC, the high priestess is considered the god's spouse, and (for the abovementioned reason) neither the Elemental Ruler fits too well.
Slizzark could be an interesting idea, OTOH.
I don't get this: there's a High Priestess of the MOTHER of Fire who's the SPOUSE of the Mother?? The first explicit mention of a lesbian Goddess in Mystara???
Ah wait, maybe you're talking about the High Priestess of Zugzul mentioned in the DA series, right? *sigh of relief*
Anyway, Elemental Ruler has no real weight on Mystara and no real sex, so it could be used as much as Slizzark (although I tend to prefer the latter)
Linky:
http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/godimmortals.htm
Note that I do not thing an absolute match should be required for Immortals since I am trying to reconcile two sources that are not written to match in the first place, but it is a good place to start. Overall concept should IMO some times take presedence over portfolios, alignments etc.
I'd love to hear your suggestions though
Havard
Ah wait, maybe you're talking about the High Priestess of Zugzul mentioned in the DA series, right? *sigh of relief*
Indeed.
Anyway, what I made up for Luca was justified by the fact that I wanted it to be as weird as possible, in order not to show up anywhere. That's why it's one of the Immortals not worshipped on Mystara. Mind you, it would have been like having some Immortal guy named George worshipped anywhere on Mystara ("Lo and behold, Children of George!"): not my cup of tea :P
Or some Immortal guy named Gareth.... ;)
I know what you mean about weird sounding names.
Like this one for a Scandinavian:
Usually, I find it best to just change the name though. For Immortals that's easy since they like having different identities anyway.
By the way, it seems obvious to me that Centaurus may be the forefather of the centaurs, but not necessarily immortal. In fact, the only immortal centaur is Chiron. If you want, you could make Centaurus an Exalted Being, but not beyond that (else he would have been mentioned as an immortal worshipped by centaurs in PC1).
Too bad. He seemed like a nice choice. Couldn't he have been an Immortal who faded with the Great Rain of Fire?
Immortals can beget children, but they're mortal with NO higher lifespan and NO cool extra-powers: they simply belong to the race of the mortal parent, and MAY or MAY NOT manifest weird physical traits that set them apart because of their divine lineage. But that's all.
IIRC the WotI optional rules do include information about how "demi-gods" could have some powers like wings at an XP penalty.
Talking about two other immortals mentioned in the thread, I'd like to spend a few more words on Simurgh and Qywattz.
Simurgh doesnt seem to have any apparent Blackmoor equivalent then. Ofcourse he could still have many followers on Mystara in this era, just not being among the ones with a big following in the North.
Qywwatz is interesting though. Seems like he could fit just as well as Demogorgon for Elgath, who is possibly the deity behind the Egg of Coot. OTOH, I like keeping Demgorgon around...
I would reconsider using these immortals, since they are really not worshipped on Mystara before a certain moment (if ever) and certainly not outside a certain race: Razud, Land, Bastet, Arachne Prime, N'grath, Fugit, the Norns (Urd, Verthandi and Skuld should always be worshipped as a whole, not separately, IMHO at least ) and the Elemasters (who usually care only for their Elemental plane, which is enough).
I could see this argument against Razud since he may have come to Mystara with the Alphatians.
What specifically rules Land, Basted, Aracne, N'grath and Fugit out?
The Norns should fit very well in the North. Could they be posing together under the identity of Kela?
As for the Elemasters, could it be that they used to have a following on Mystara, but abandoned that project after the Blackmoor disaster? They fit very well with the concept of the elves worshipping the lords of the elements which is a central feature in the D20 Blackmoor sourcebook.
PS: Don't forget about this one:
http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/godimmortals.htm
Havard
I'd love to hear your suggestions though
Well, it's quite clear that some Immortals -- those you highlighted as clearly identified -- existed and were widely worshipped in Blackmoor: Khoronus, Odin, Terra, Ordana, Faunus, Ixion, Hel and Thanatos (Zugzul does not necessarily exist anymore). We could add Valerias as well, she seems to match Phellia's portfolio fairly well.
However, while Odin and Ordana are said to be Greater powers (i.e., Hierarchs), Hel and Thanatos, Hel, Thanatos, Terra and Ixion appear as Intermediate or even Lesser powers (at most Eternals), which is odd, given that they are primordial Immortals who have led their spheres for aeons.
OTOH, Faunus, who is only a Temporal in modern times, is a Hierarch at this time.
The first issue can be solved, assuming that Ixion and the others did not manifest in their full power to the Blackmoorians (but may have been worshipped in their full form elsewhere, e.g. in the Oltec lands).
The second, however, requires that something happened to drastically reduce the station of some Immortals, including Faunus, who must have lost 20 levels or so in the process!
Another issue is that of the Blackmoor Dwarf/Gnome pantheon: it is remarkably large, with as many as 4 Hierarchs -- yet none of them is clearly identifiable, and none of them survives: Kagyar cannot be one of the members, IMO, since he isn't the patron of HW dwarves and wasn't interested in dwarves before GRoF, IIRC (though IMO he could be Kadis).
This, and the fact that Kagyar had a free hand in taking and altering the dwarves to create his new race, leads me to think that the dwarven Immortals of the Blackmoorian age were not active post-GRoF.
Similar considerations can be done on the Halfling pantheon.
The Elven pantheon is a mixed lot -- some of these Immortals are not present after WotI, others survive (Ordana, Faunus, and Terra), and some who could have been there (Calitha) are not mentioned.
We have Dealth, who is later replaced by Eyrindul, Sylvian, whose portfolio is likely absorbed by Ordana herself, and the four elemental Immortals.
Note that, post-GRoF, Faunus and Terra are not anymore especially linked to the Elves.
As to the four elementals, I don't think they are the Elemental Rulers -- those should be Hierarch-level, and the four are only Intermediates. Moreover, they disappear from the Elven pantheon without leaving a trace, yet we know that the Elves remember something of the Blackmoorian age -- they are able to trace genealogies to Menander Ithamis, at least. Finally, their elemental portfolios don't seem to be present in modern elven religions, nor does the metal - creation - strength portfolio of Ferros (who BTW may not be one of the four elementals, since Terra is the patroness of earth).
My way of solving these problem is to assume that the dwarven pantheon was destroyed in the GRoF, as were parts of the Elven, Halfling, and human pantheons.
However, while the dwarven Immortals died almost all (except Garal, if he was already around), some of the Elven Immortals survived (possibly because they had some following in the southern continent). Aeros, Ferros, Dealth and Sylvain did not survive (Fiumarra and Hydros might have survived, if they are the Mother of Fire and Protius), though Aeros and Fiumarra might have simply retreated to the Elemental Planes.
IMO, Ferros was the original patron of the Belcadiz (see their unusual interest in metallurgy), thus explaining their lack of Immortal patrons in modern times.
The only Halfling power mentioned is Tilla, and since the Docrae seem to have been unique of the Blackmoor region, her worship might have been confined there, leading her to death from worship starvation (or leaving her out of power and incapacitated).
Note that some powers might have died before the GRoF, due to lack of worshippers/competition with other powers at the time when technology widely replaced magic in Blackmoor -- left with a much smaller number of worshippers, some powers may have been weakened, and others might have simply fed on the weaker, or taken advantage to kill rivals, etc.
This conflict could also explain why the Immortals let the GRoF happen -- they were distracted by bigger problems.
By the way, it seems obvious to me that Centaurus may be the forefather of the centaurs, but not necessarily immortal.
Oh, yes, that's certainly a possibility, and in fact I suggested it above, saying perhaps Ixion could be used instead. Reading Havard's list, though, shows that Hak was patron of sky, stars, and the wind, which sounds more like Nephele than Ixion (in fact, Centaurus works perfectly here, inheriting rule over the wind from Nephele and rule over the stars from Ixion).
Centaurus is described in PC1 in a way that makes him seem like an Immortal with the portfolio of centaurs and mist. I'm thinking if he was simply a legendary ancestor, he wouldn't be described as personifying a natural force (mist) in that way (unless myths have made much more of him than there actually was).
He might well be an Immortal who is now dead, faded, imprisoned, or simply elsewhere at the present time, but still remembered by his descendants in myth. That would explain why he's not actively worshiped by centaurs in the present age.
It's true that Centaurus isn't explicitly an immortal, and for that reason there's no reason he has to be in the Codex Immortalis; however, he's an interesting, if obscure, name, and I think he works well for Havard's purposes.
In fact, the only immortal centaur is Chiron.
Chiron was immortal in the sense that he was immune to death, but I'm dubious about him being an Immortal in the sense of a 4-dimensional being with power points and a home Outer Plane under his control. Tall Tales of the Wee Folk says:
"Chiron was immortal (but did not have status in the Immortal hierarchy)."
This seems like a clear distinction to me; note the use of capital letters, especially. The text goes on to describe how he was wounded in a simple tavern brawl and left unable to heal himself. I don't think a true Immortal could have had that kind of problem, since they're able to create new bodies for themselves and exist as bodiless incorporeal beings. It seems obvious to me that Chiron was only a mortal gifted and cursed with immunity to death: a 3-dimensional, Powerless mortal.
Terra, Sinbad, Ordana, Crakkak, Ka, Demogorgon, Fugit, Protius, Faunus, Nyx, Kaygar, Gorrziok, Brom, Hymir, Aracne Prima, Surt, Bastet, Ninfangle and Razud.
Of these, I'd say Razud, Fugit and Bastet are irrelevant -- they are or were not active in Mystara at the time. Moreover, I've some doubts on Sinbad's -- he might be much younger.
DM, OTOH, proposes this version:
Hel, Ixion, Korotiku, Odin, Ouranos, Pax, Protius, Skuld, the Elemasters, Thalia, Thanatos, Tyche, Urd, Valerias, Verthandi, Zugzul, Arik, Terra, N’grath, The Great One, Simurgh, Ordana, Grammaton, Ka, Faunus, Demogorgon, Fugit, Gorrziok, Brom, Kagyar, Aracne Prima, Bastet, Razud, Ninfangle, Khoronus, Nyx, Guidarezzo, Ninsun. (stopping at 3400 BC, since the Blackmoor pantheon cannot include younger Immortals.
Of this, I'd ignore Pax, the Elemasters, Fugit and N'grath because they are too remote or not so useful, and Guidarezzo and Ninsun because they would be at most Initiate (Demigods) so they don't match easily.
Ssu-Ma, on the other hand, could well be added to the list.
Note that DM's timeline features circa 3 new Immortals per century in modern times, with a much larger number after the big crises (GRoF, fall of Taymor, Gnoll invasion and related events.
Now, unless the number of Immortal is always growing, leading to Immortal overpopulation in the near future, there must be Immortals who die (in battle with the various Immortal-level monsters, in conflicts with other Immortals, or for other reasons). The GRoF is an excellent reason -- also, the fact that many new Immortals arise after these disasters may also depend on the fact that old patrons are not anymore available, and the new Initiate find it easier to become well known and powerful.
These considerations seem to support my idea that most Blackmoorian Immortals have died/disappeared beyond the vortex/reduced to husks in the Astral or whatever else may happen to make them unavailable on a more or less permanent way, and therefore do not correspond to current Mystaran Immortals -- though others certainly do, and some Blackmoorian Immortals may well have survived for a time, or may still survived, worshipped only in remote locations (e.g., Fiumarra/Mother of Fire).
Another issue is that of the Blackmoor Dwarf/Gnome pantheon: it is remarkably large, with as many as 4 Hierarchs -- yet none of them is clearly identifiable, and none of them survives: Kagyar cannot be one of the members, IMO, since he isn't the patron of HW dwarves and wasn't interested in dwarves before GRoF, IIRC (though IMO he could be Kadis).
If we accept the ZGG material as mostly accurate, then I think we have to conclude that the entire Blackmoor-era dwarf pantheon is worshipped by the Kogolor dwarves in the Hollow World even in the present day. After all, the whole point of them being there is to preserve their culture, and that would include their religion. The Spell of Preservation would ensure that every one of those Immortals continues to receive the appropriate rites and observances, even if they're dead and can no longer respond to prayers or grant spells to clerics. I think the idea of Hollow World inhabitants dutifully dedicating prayers and sacrifices to gods who died thousands of years ago is a very appropriate one, anyway, fitting the themes of that campaign setting.
I think it makes sense to assume that Kagyar had some relationship with the dwarves before the Great Rain of Fire - it would explain why he adopted them as his chosen race afterwards. He just wasn't their sole patron. I don't see a problem with adding him to the small list of gods worshipped by the Kogolor - Fredar, Fredara, and Garal Glitterlode don't seem enough by themselves. Perhaps Kagyar is only a minor patron to the Kogolor, but they should know of him and pray to him on occasion. The Hollow World boxed set says, "Kagyar is not the patron of the Kogolor dwarves; he has nothing to do with them," but says "he appreciates their artisans as much as he does any other race's." That seems to fit pretty well - he's not their major god, but artisans among them will worship him, just as artisans of any other race will worship him. The fact that the mortal dwarf Garal Glittergold worshipped Kagyar is more evidence that he did have at least something of a dwarven cult.
For these reasons, I would like it if one of the gods worshipped by dwarves in the Blackmoor era was an aspect of Kagyar. He wouldn't have been the chief of the gods or the father of the gods, but he should have been known to that people. It's kind of a problem that none of the dwarven gods in Havard's list have arts or crafts in their portfolios, since those are really Kagyar's only concerns. The closest matches would be:
Gorrim (god of death, the underworld, and wealth). Under this interpretation, Kagyar in the time before the Great Rain of Fire was seen as a grim, even hostile god by the dwarves, certainly not their friend, but the inspiration behind the treasures they mined and forged. After the Rain, the god of death became the god of life, because he brought the greatest artisan clans of their race to the underworld to protect them and taught them greater secrets of delving for treasure and improving on its value. This interpretation actually works remarkably well; it explains why they did not formally regard him as their patron, and saw him as an aloof figure who had nothing to do with them until they died. They were not originally a people who delved deeply into the underworld, after all, seeing it as a place of death and the dead. When most of their people went to the underworld during the devastation of the Great Rain of Fire, they saw Gorrim as a much more welcoming, even protective figure.
Hemgrid (god of earth and mountains). Under this interpretation, they knew even less of Kagyar, knowing only that he had an affinity for the things of the earth. Kagyar, in those times, knew of the dangers to come and presented himself to the dwarves as a god of mountains in order to encourage them to settle there, where they would be protected from the future cataclysm. The mountain dwarves began more and more to gain a separate culture, and this culture became that of the dwarves of Rockhome in the present day. He was never the patron of the Kogolor dwarves, who rejected the ways of Hemgrid to live on the surface and in shallow caves.
Kagyar could be either of those gods, or conceivably he could be both of them, although I think Land works very well as both Hemgrid and Kadis.
I think the key to making these two different lists of Immortals fit together is to interpret them not necessarily how they "really" were, but how they were seen by mortals. Thus, Hella may have actually been a Hierarch, but was viewed as an intermediate goddess by the people of Blackmoor because she was not as important to their culture as Odir or Phellia. Likewise, Gorrim might have been viewed as evil by the Kogolor dwarves because they saw the underworld as a place of death, but he might actually have secretly had their best interests in mind. Similarly, human dragon cultists could have viewed Insellageth as good and Chamber as evil when neither were anything of the sort; in this way, the cultures presented in the ZGG materials would remain the same, while the "truth" of the Immortals could be very different. It's like how the sections in the Gazetteers labeled separately, "history as the players know it" and "history as the Immortals (and the DM) know it," or how the shadowelves were presented as evil until we finally learned their side of the story.
Reading Havard's list, though, shows that Hak was patron of sky, stars, and the wind, which sounds more like Nephele than Ixion (in fact, Centaurus works perfectly here, inheriting rule over the wind from Nephele and rule over the stars from Ixion).
Sky, stars, wind.. uhm... sounds like Odin to me. Throw in wisdome and justice, and that's his twin! ;)
Centaurus might well be an Immortal who is now dead, faded, imprisoned, or simply elsewhere at the present time, but still remembered by his descendants in myth. That would explain why he's not actively worshiped by centaurs in the present age.
That's likely, sure. But it's still weird that in PC1 he isn't worshipped actively as a deity if he was such in the beginning of times, especially given the history of a so close-knitted race as the centaurs.
Chiron was immortal in the sense that he was immune to death, but I'm dubious about him being an Immortal in the sense of a 4-dimensional being with power points and a home Outer Plane under his control. Tall Tales of the Wee Folk says:
"Chiron was immortal (but did not have status in the Immortal hierarchy)."
This seems like a clear distinction to me; note the use of capital letters, especially. The text goes on to describe how he was wounded in a simple tavern brawl and left unable to heal himself. I don't think a true Immortal could have had that kind of problem, since they're able to create new bodies for themselves and exist as bodiless incorporeal beings. It seems obvious to me that Chiron was only a mortal gifted and cursed with immunity to death: a 3-dimensional, Powerless mortal.
You do not remember the whole thing: in WotI Chiron IS listed as an Immortal deity and he's given an immortal rank inside a sphere of power. IIRC he bestowed his immortality to a dying god to save him, and that deed caused him to attain true immortality (or better, to acquire the saved immortal as patron in his quest for true immortality, which according to WotI he later acquired). I reasoned this wounded immortal was Faunus because of the close link between centaurs and the woodland beings that Faunus patronize. ;)
http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/godimmortals.htm
here is a revised list of Immortals for Blackmoor based on what we know:
Thonian Pantheon
Baldin - Pax or Thalia (but Baldin is listed as Male) or Baldin (vanished or unknown immortal)
Fornaus - Odin, Ixion or Pax
Hersh - Tyche (but he's listed as Male) or Hersh (vanished or unknown)
Henrin - none (must be Henrin, vanished or unknown)
Kadis - Ouranos
Khoronus* - Khoronus (this prompts a question: what's the tentative date of this pantheon? cause I thought Khoronus's ascension was around 4050 BC, way too early to be acknowledged among the deities worshipped in the Kingdom of Blackmoor...)
Mwajin – Mwajin (Protius is definitely NOT interested in air nor commerce, so this Mwajin must be unknown or vanished)
Odir* - Odin or Ixion (being NG stands more in favour of Ixion)
Pacuun - Ixion or Pax (Sinbad would have been another nice choice if you think he is around BEFORE the GRoF)
Phellia - definitely Valerias
Sacwyhne - Sacwyhne (there's really NO other immortal with these interests around at that time, so she must be a new one, prolly unknown or vanished)
Sollus – Terra or Ka (but Sollus is Male) or Sollus (now dead?)
Peshwa Pantheon
Calelrin (evil) – Arachne Prime is a nice choice, but Calelrin is Male, so maybe Demogorgon (who's got both a male and a female personality) or Arik are better
Hadeen (dead) - Hadeen (they tell us it's dead, so let's just make him an hitherto unknown DEAD immortal, which solves the problem perfectly :D )
Hak - Odin (apart from horses, but he can fit)
Raelralataen - this one must be a new immortal (vanished or unknown)
Yoosef – Ka
Evil Pantheon
Elgath - he's patron of archers and the hunt, how can he be connected to the Egg?? Listed as CN, I'd say maybe Ninfangle is a good choice
Tyrhm (Skandahar Patron) - Stodos
Thanatos* - Thanatos
Hella* (Skandahar/Beastman Patron) - Hel
Volketh - Volketh (unknown or now dead)
Zugzul* (Afridhi Pantheon)- Zugzul
Dwarves/Gnomes
Charis - Ka (I tend to see his portfolio as part of the natural cycle, besides he is Lawful Good!)
Koorzun - Kagyar or Koorzun (now dead)
Dhummon – Dhummon (prolly one of the original dwarven immortals, now extinct)
Gorrim (evil) – Demogorgon or Thanatos (D is prolly more fitting given the "wealth" portfolio of Gorrim, which should mean greed) or Gorrim (some evil dwarven immortal, maybe he and Dhummon killed each other!)
Hemgrid - Ouranos
Kela - now this is a good choice for Kagyar!
Mieroc - Kagyar (except for that "war" part) or Mieroc himself. Can't be Garal, since he ascended after Blackmoor became an Empire (he was originally a dwarf and later created the gnomish race).. unless you're telling me gnomes were around at the times of King Uther, and this means Garal ascended earlier than 4100 BC... even though our Mystaran sources (HW namely) clearly fix gnomish creation around 3000 BC IIRC
Pathmeer - Ssu-Ma
Shau - a FEMALE goddess of tactis and war was not present at those times in the official sources, so Shau must be an hitherto unknown immortal (maybe vanished)
Elven Pantheon
Aeros – Elemaster of Air or another unknown deity (maybe these elves turned to worship the elemental forces, and thus the Elemasters??)
Dealth - Eiryndul would be perfect.. were it not for the fact he became immortal only 2000 years after! Dealth must be another of those unknown immortals
Faunus* - Faunus
Ferros – Kagyar, why not (after all he became FIXED on dwarves after GRoF, but couldn't he have been interested by other cultures before)? Otherwise Ferros (unknown or vanished)
Fiumarra – Elemaster of Fire or Fiumarra (unknown or vanished)
Hydros – Elemaster of Water or Protius
Ordana* - Ordana
Sylvian – Ninfangle
Terra* - Terra
Halfling/Docrae Pantheon
Tilla - Thalia or Tilla properly (maybe the first halfling deity, later abandoned or vanished)
Dragon Pantheon
Chamber (NE) – Pearl (First Pearl Dragon) CE
Insellageth (NG) – The Great Dragon -NG
Tsartha (N) – Opal (First Opal Dragon) - N
FWIW, I do think there were other unknown immortals before the GRoF and there are still some unknown immortals in the present, so some of these may belong to this cathegory. I wouldn't try to find unlikely resemblances between ZGG deities and Mystaran deities just to fit in with what there's in canon, coz Dave Arneson clearly did not want to do that. Better to introduce new immortals if you really have to.
The problem is however, to justify their existence AFTER the GRoF, since there's no trace of them in the known cultures of the outer and inner world. So where are they now? They cannot be ALL vanished, and most certainly NOT because of the GRoF. They were IMMORTALS, not mortals living in Mystara at that time, so it's pretty unlikely they got vaporized in the explosions. Did they die of "faith starvation" (that is, because of lack of followers)? Did they leave Mystara for the Dimension of Myth? Did they enter the Vortex? Did they get lost in other planes? Were they killed by fellow immortals or mortal opponents? Maybe some of this and some of that apply... choose your own cup of tea ;) :P
Considering this list of immortals made by Haavard :
http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/godimmortals.htm
here is a revised list of Immortals for Blackmoor based on what we know:
Thonian Pantheon
Baldin - Pax or Thalia (but Baldin is listed as Male) or Baldin (vanished or unknown immortal)
What about Ixion? Baldin is a Sun God, and also a patron of poetry. My original writeup has him as Razud.
Fornaus - Odin, Ixion or Pax
All fit. My vote is for Pax since Odin and Ixion have plenty of other possible roles.
Hersh - Tyche (but he's listed as Male) or Hersh (vanished or unknown)
I still prefer Korotiku. Hersh is a typical trickster.
Henrin - none (must be Henrin, vanished or unknown)
I had him as Ka since he is a protector of the weak. He is also a typical Knight's patron, an unusual role for Ka, but surely not impossible?
Kadis - Ouranos
I have him as Land, but Ouranos probably works too.
Khoronus* - Khoronus (this prompts a question: what's the tentative date of this pantheon? cause I thought Khoronus's ascension was around 4050 BC, way too early to be acknowledged among the deities worshipped in the Kingdom of Blackmoor...)
Uhm..still working on exact numbers, but I think a fair assumption is that the D20 book is set around BC 3970. Khoronus is interesting since his description notes that he was once a mortal man of Blackmoor....
Mwajin – Mwajin (Protius is definitely NOT interested in air nor commerce, so this Mwajin must be unknown or vanished)
Sinbad would be ideal for him. I see you have him listed as achieving Immortality in the Blackmoor era (BC4000-3000). Is it possible that he could have already been immortal for a few decades by then?
Odir* - Odin or Ixion (being NG stands more in favour of Ixion)
His description and name clearly suggests that he is Odin. Odin is also decribed by Zimriel as the main patron of Blackmoor (this is pre D20).
Pacuun - Ixion or Pax (Sinbad would have been another nice choice if you
think he is around BEFORE the GRoF)
See above for thoughts on Sinbad. Pacuun is sometimes known as the Sunsword which lead me to suggest Ixion. He is also a slayer of undead.
Phellia - definitely Valerias
Yes, I agree. I also note that Phellia is Pacuun's mate which strengthens the theory that he is Ixion.
Sacwyhne - Sacwyhne (there's really NO other immortal with these interests around at that time, so she must be a new one, prolly unknown or vanished)
I suggested Bastet because she is a patron of fencers and duelists. I figured fencing is a cat-like activity... ;)
Sollus – Terra or Ka (but Sollus is Male) or Sollus (now dead?)
He is a patron of agriculture, but he is a sun god and an enemy of Thanatos. This lead me to suggest Ixion. He is a lesser God though, which counts against this. Sollus is described as the brother of Temrin a God of Time who was slain by Thanatos...
Peshwa Pantheon
Calelrin (evil) – Arachne Prime is a nice choice, but Calelrin is Male, so maybe Demogorgon (who's got both a male and a female personality) or Arik are better
Works for me. Calelrin is known as the Deceiver or the Lord of Lies. Loki would have been perfect had he been around. Loki probably took over these aspects from Calelrin.
Hadeen (dead) - Hadeen (they tell us it's dead, so let's just make him an hitherto unknown DEAD immortal, which solves the problem perfectly :D )
Yes, I suppose so. His death is possibly linked to the arrival of the Beagle...
Hak - Odin (apart from horses, but he can fit)
Agreed. I like Odin as Hak.
Raelralataen - this one must be a new immortal (vanished or unknown)
No patrons of Law avaiable?
Yoosef – Ka
He is much more a patron of knowledge and magic than of protection. I'd say Ssu-Ma works better than Ka here.
Evil Pantheon
Elgath - he's patron of archers and the hunt, how can he be connected to the Egg?? Listed as CN, I'd say maybe Ninfangle is a good choice
Tyrhm (Skandahar Patron) - Stodos
Thanatos* - Thanatos
Hella* (Skandahar/Beastman Patron) - Hel
Volketh - Volketh (unknown or now dead)
Zugzul* (Afridhi Pantheon)- Zugzul
These all work for me!
Dwarves/Gnomes
Charis - Ka (I tend to see his portfolio as part of the natural cycle, besides he is Lawful Good!)
Okay.
Koorzun - Kagyar or Koorzun (now dead)
I prefer Kagyar then.
Dhummon – Dhummon (prolly one of the original dwarven immortals, now extinct)
That would work.
Gorrim (evil) – Demogorgon or Thanatos (D is prolly more fitting given the "wealth" portfolio of Gorrim, which should mean greed) or Gorrim (some evil dwarven immortal, maybe he and Dhummon killed each other!)
I like using Thanatos here since he is the traditional enemy of Dwarves.
Hemgrid - Ouranos
Okay.
Kela - now this is a good choice for Kagyar!
But...female! Kela is a map maker and an explorer as much as a patron of crafts....
Mieroc - Kagyar (except for that "war" part) or Mieroc himself. Can't be Garal, since he ascended after Blackmoor became an Empire (he was originally a dwarf and later created the gnomish race).. unless you're telling me gnomes were around at the times of King Uther, and this means Garal ascended earlier than 4100 BC... even though our Mystaran sources (HW namely) clearly fix gnomish creation around 3000 BC IIRC
The D20 supplement assumes Gnomes are around in 3970. My suggestion to this is to leave the individual DM with the choice. Either Gnomes are around at this time, or if not, both the creation of Gnomes and the ascension of Garal/Mieroc is postponed....
Pathmeer - Ssu-Ma
Yes, that works!
Shau - a FEMALE goddess of tactis and war was not present at those times in the official sources, so Shau must be an hitherto unknown immortal (maybe vanished)
Right. She is noted to be Dhummon's wife... How about Terra?
Elven Pantheon
Aeros – Elemaster of Air or another unknown deity (maybe these elves turned to worship the elemental forces, and thus the Elemasters??)
Yep. I am pretty much convinced about this.
Dealth - Eiryndul would be perfect.. were it not for the fact he became immortal only 2000 years after! Dealth must be another of those unknown immortals
How about Nyx?
Faunus* - Faunus
Yep
Ferros – Kagyar, why not (after all he became FIXED on dwarves after GRoF, but couldn't he have been interested by other cultures before)? Otherwise Ferros (unknown or vanished)
I like it! If going on with Agathokles theory about how he was once the patron of the Belcadiz, what if the elves did something that caused him to abandon them for the dwarves? This could even be an explaination for dwarf/elf animosities...
Fiumarra – Elemaster of Fire or Fiumarra (unknown or vanished)
Hydros – Elemaster of Water or Protius
I'm pretty much set on keeping these the Elemasters.
Ordana* - Ordana
Sylvian – Ninfangle
Terra* - Terra
These are all good!
Halfling/Docrae Pantheon
Tilla - Thalia or Tilla properly (maybe the first halfling deity, later abandoned or vanished)
Both are possible. I like how similar their names are
Dragon Pantheon
Chamber (NE) – Pearl (First Pearl Dragon) CE
Insellageth (NG) – The Great Dragon -NG
Tsartha (N) – Opal (First Opal Dragon) - N
Yep, these are pretty much set.
FWIW, I do think there were other unknown immortals before the GRoF and there are still some unknown immortals in the present, so some of these may belong to this cathegory. I wouldn't try to find unlikely resemblances between ZGG deities and Mystaran deities just to fit in with what there's in canon, coz Dave Arneson clearly did not want to do that. Better to introduce new immortals if you really have to.
This is an interesting topic. Keep in mind that there are probably hundreds of Immortals aroun that are not mentioned in WotI. Most of these are only initiates and have only a small following. Some could be old in spite of low level, probably due to inacitivity.
Introducing new ones is certainly an option though as you say.
The problem is however, to justify their existence AFTER the GRoF, since there's no trace of them in the known cultures of the outer and inner world. So where are they now? They cannot be ALL vanished, and most certainly NOT because of the GRoF. They were IMMORTALS, not mortals living in Mystara at that time, so it's pretty unlikely they got vaporized in the explosions. Did they die of "faith starvation" (that is, because of lack of followers)? Did they leave Mystara for the Dimension of Myth? Did they enter the Vortex? Did they get lost in other planes? Were they killed by fellow immortals or mortal opponents? Maybe some of this and some of that apply... choose your own cup of tea ;) :P
All of these options are possible. When I think the GRoF is cause of the death of many Immortals, I don't mean that they died from the blast itself, but simply from massive lack of followers. The deities listed in the D20 ZGG book all have large followings in the Blackmoor region. All of these followers were destroyed in the initial blast. Unless they had followers elsewhere, they would instantly have been destroyed. Many groups of followers also succumbed to disease, famine and natural disasters in the centuries that followed the GRoF. Dwarven Immortals could easily have disappeared since only the dwarves who turned to Kagyar were able to survive.
Havard
What about Ixion? Baldin is a Sun God, and also a patron of poetry. My original writeup has him as Razud.
Because I do not think Ixion has anything to do with poetry at all, and it's not that likely he has 3 different aspects in the Blackmoorian patheon.
Also for Hersh, if you think he's the Trickster god (which did not seem so obvious from his portfolio), then let's go with Korotiku.
Land is too detached from Mystara to be interested, let's give this to Ouranos.
As for Henrin, Ka is definitely not a knights' god, more oriented towards knowledge, magic, nature and protection, so this doesn't make him the best choice. Why don't we simply assume Henrin was a common immortal first immortal identity? After Blackmoor, he gave up his power and was reborn a human, and later became immortal as (fill in the blanks).. likely candidates: Paarkum, Frey, Maat, Tarastia, etc...
Sollus is a patron of agriculture, but he is a sun god and an enemy of Thanatos. This lead me to suggest Ixion. He is a lesser God though, which counts against this. Sollus is described as the brother of Temrin a God of Time who was slain by Thanatos...
Better to leave him a new immortal, as well as Sachwywhatever..
This means these would be the Thonian deities:
Thonian Pantheon
Baldin - Baldin (vanished immortal, or u can anticipate Guidarezzo's rise and use him)
Fornaus - Pax
Hersh - Korotiku
Henrin - Henrin
Kadis - Ouranos
Khoronus* - Khoronus
Mwajin – Sinbad (Sinbad's appearance in the Multiverse is not specified, so you can have him appear even earlier than GRoF)
Odir* - Odin
Pacuun - Ixion
Phellia - Valerias
Sacwyhne - Sacwyhne (vanished immortal)
Sollus – Sollus
Now on with the Peshwa.
Peshwa Pantheon
Calelrin (evil) – Demogorgon or Arik
Hadeen (dead) - Hadeen (dead)
Hak - Odin
Raelralataen - Raelralataen (vanished)
Yoosef – Ka
Given the fact Ka is a patron of magic and knowledge as much as of protection, he's the best choice for Yoosef.
Here's the Dwarven and Gnomish pantheon.
Dwarves/Gnomes
Charis - Ka
Koorzun - Kagyar
Dhummon – Dhummon (one of the original dwarven immortals, now extinct)
Gorrim (evil) – Thanatos
Hemgrid - Ouranos
Kela - Kela (later vanished trying to map the Vortex :P )
Mieroc - Garal or Mieroc (if you suppose Garal wasn't around at that time)
Pathmeer - Ssu-Ma
Shau - Shau (vanished)
About the elves, if we think that they started out worshipping "elemental forces" than maybe some of the choices can be explainable.
However, Dealth is definitely NOT Nyx, since Nyx is interested only in undead and undeath, not the afterlife (undead life is LIFE for Nyx, not the underworld), not even tricks and stealth. Dealth is a different immortal.
Elven Pantheon
Aeros – Elemaster of Air
Dealth - Dealth (perished in the GRoF)
Faunus* - Faunus
Ferros – Kagyar
Fiumarra – Elemaster of Fire
Hydros – Elemaster of Water
Ordana* - Ordana
Sylvian – Ninfangle
Terra* - Terra
When I think the GRoF is cause of the death of many Immortals, I don't mean that they died from the blast itself, but simply from massive lack of followers. The deities listed in the D20 ZGG book all have large followings in the Blackmoor region. All of these followers were destroyed in the initial blast. Unless they had followers elsewhere, they would instantly have been destroyed.
Now now, that is a bit far-fetched, don't you think? ;) Slews of Immortals wiped away when their followers die? It's not likely.. especially since they FADE AWAY (ref. WotI) after they lose worshippers, they don't die on the spot. This means they'd have plenty of time to create a new base of followers if need arises. One needs a real MASTER stroke to provoke the fading of an immortal because of worshippers' absence (and said deity should at least be imprisoned to prevent him from acting to avoid his fate)..
Now now, that is a bit far-fetched, don't you think? ;) Slews of Immortals wiped away when their followers die? It's not likely.. especially since they FADE AWAY (ref. WotI) after they lose worshippers, they don't die on the spot. This means they'd have plenty of time to create a new base of followers if need arises. One needs a real MASTER stroke to provoke the fading of an immortal because of worshippers' absence (and said deity should at least be imprisoned to prevent him from acting to avoid his fate)..
Marco
On the subject of FADE AWAY have you checked out this thread?
Regards
Gary
This means these would be the Thonian deities:
Okay, looking good!
Immortals fading as a result of the GRoF:
Now now, that is a bit far-fetched, don't you think? ;) Slews of Immortals wiped away when their followers die? It's not likely.. especially since they FADE AWAY (ref. WotI) after they lose worshippers, they don't die on the spot. This means they'd have plenty of time to create a new base of followers if need arises. One needs a real MASTER stroke to provoke the fading of an immortal because of worshippers' absence (and said deity should at least be imprisoned to prevent him from acting to avoid his fate)..
Okay, let me explain my reasoning a little better. I agree that it doesn't make sense that the whole bunch die on the spot (Though it could be the case for one of two of them). But the GRoF lead to many Immortals being in serious danger. Add to this that the Cataclysm may have had effects on other planes as well (See the Ethengar Gaz and the Mystaros timeline).
Now as I picture it, the centuries that followed thet Great Rain of Fire were chaotic times plagued with natural distasters, famine, disease, wars etc. Think Mad Max or something. Weakened Immortals would feverishly try to reestablish their followings. This was made harder by two things: 1) the Blackmoorians at the peak of their power had begun to loose interest in Immortals (Secularization) and others blamed the Immortals (or at least some of them) for the GRoF. So the GRoF was a big factor in a series of events that caused many Immortals to fade or abandon Mystara for other worlds. I would also postulate that these incidents left many Immortals seriously weakened if not completely faded. (Still lurking around with no more than Initiate status).
How does that work?
Also, keep in mind that the Deities presented in the ZGG book represents the Immortals followed around AC 3970. In the 970 years that followed, Blackmoor society changed dramatically. Allegiances to Immortals could also easily have changed in this time. Some may even have faded before the GRoF itself.
Havard
How does that work?
I find this to be a good solution -- a combination of lack of faith in high-tech Blackmoor, sudden loss of followers in GRoF, perhaps even some heroic death (spending lots of PP to save the worshippers), and finally conflict between Immortals in the early post-GRoF times (with "starving" Immortals competing hard to reform their worship base in a drastically reduced population) should be enough to explain the sudden loss of old Immortals and ascension of new ones.