Old Gods?? Verdand Passage reference - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Old Gods?? Verdand Passage reference

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
aggilus
Apr 18, 2007 11:18:07 Hello list members

I´m re-reading the prism pentad book to get ideas for my new campaing. Since english is not my mother language the first time I read it I didn't get all of the meanings.

In chapter eleven of Verdant passage Ktandeo leads Sadira and Agis to under Tyr's Crimson Shrine and explains to them that the faith of the wraith in its god is what keeps the candles light. The supposed god is a eagle-headed figure. Ktandeo said 2000 year ago Tyr was a city built around the temple in a forest.

I searched quicky the earth, air, fire and water supplement and the reference to old gods is that no one knows for sure if old god existed.

Does any of the templars of athas.org has any information? Or any other member list had worked on this? Or is this one of those inconsistencies in the product line?

Thanks to all for the feedback

Rolando
#2
brun01
Apr 18, 2007 12:47:17 Actually, that dude is a raaig. Check page 67 of Terrors of the Deadlands for more information.
#3
Kamelion
Apr 18, 2007 13:32:32 Faith in a god does not mean that the god is real. The Crimson Shrine is a good example of this. Although the issue was blurred for a few years, it was eventually explicitly stated in City by the Silt Sea that Athas has no gods and has never had any gods. That doesn't mean, of course, that it has never had faiths and worshippers...
#4
aggilus
Apr 18, 2007 13:37:33
Actually, that dude is a raaig. Check page 67 of Terrors of the Deadlands for more information.

Thanks for pointing me to ToDL accessory but the Raaig is not the creature I was reffering to. Indeed the raaig was protecting the crimson shrine but who was the God it was servant/believer before turning to undead? a god to recreate? the eagle-headed figure (depicted flying in the colored glass windows of the Crimson Shrine?

Thanks again

Rolando
#5
Pennarin
Apr 18, 2007 14:18:44
Thanks for pointing me to ToDL accessory but the Raaig is not the creature I was reffering to. Indeed the raaig was protecting the crimson shrine but who was the God it was servant/believer before turning to undead? a god to recreate? the eagle-headed figure (depicted flying in the colored glass windows of the Crimson Shrine?

I never met Thor personnaly, or Shiva...and I don't expect the shrine believer - before or after he turned to undeath - ever met that eagle-headed god of his either.

Anyone met God? Anyone?? Bueller?

/mischievous :P
#6
kalthandrix
Apr 18, 2007 14:20:04
Thanks for pointing me to ToDL accessory but the Raaig is not the creature I was reffering to. Indeed the raaig was protecting the crimson shrine but who was the God it was servant/believer before turning to undead? a god to recreate? the eagle-headed figure (depicted flying in the colored glass windows of the Crimson Shrine?

Thanks again

Rolando

No one knows - it has been thought that maybe he was an advanced being or powerful psion from the Green Age.

Aside from that, well we got nothing to go off of.
#7
cnahumck
Apr 18, 2007 14:35:56
Anyone met God? Anyone?? Bueller?

I have. It was... interesting.

Pertaining to the thread, I am reminded of City by the Silt Sea, There is a Fire Giant that is a cleric. He worships another god from outside of Athas, and still gets 1st and 2nd level spells. It was the case in 2ed that 1st and 2nd level spells were given based on your faith. The interesting thing to me is that it doesn't really matter, clerics on Athas can worship the elements and have no clue that they are.
#8
aggilus
Apr 18, 2007 14:51:03
No one knows - it has been thought that maybe he was an advanced being or powerful psion from the Green Age.

Aside from that, well we got nothing to go off of.

Thanks. That means I can create it from scratch.

Rolando
#9
ruhl-than_sage
Apr 18, 2007 18:49:27
I have. It was... interesting.

Pertaining to the thread, I am reminded of City by the Silt Sea, There is a Fire Giant that is a cleric. He worships another god from outside of Athas, and still gets 1st and 2nd level spells. It was the case in 2ed that 1st and 2nd level spells were given based on your faith. The interesting thing to me is that it doesn't really matter, clerics on Athas can worship the elements and have no clue that they are.

That might be the case with this eagleheaded god as well, it could easily be a representation of the Air and/or Sun Spirits.
#10
dirk00001
Apr 19, 2007 10:02:39
That might be the case with this eagleheaded god as well, it could easily be a representation of the Air and/or Sun Spirits.

That idea, as well as the concept that some "divine powers" were really just aspects of psionic potential manifested due to one's belief in a Higher Being, are the two I prescribe to when talking about the "old gods." When the Rhulisti repopulated the world during the Rebirth they basically had to "start fresh," without any real background to build their beliefs and societies off of, so unlike earth societies they didn't have any real starting point from which to develop ideas such as divinity, psionics, and the like. IIRC the only form of magic present before the Rebirth was elemental magic, and even psionics didn't come until post-Rebirth, and if that's the case I can easily imagine how spontaneous psionic manifestations could have been interpreted by certain individuals as "the will of (a) god". In time most figured out what it really was, but belief is a powerful thing and so there'd always be those who would hold onto this idea even after it was "discovered" that these powers came from a totally separate source. Hell, look at people today - not to get into a religious debate or anything, but there are still a large number of people who believe in certain religious teachings despite the fact that modern-day science (...or even just common sense, in some cases) has come up with much more realistic explainations and such that overrule their ideas.
#11
ruhl-than_sage
Apr 19, 2007 12:37:54 Yah, that makes sense too and who's to say that it isn't the will of some god.;)
#12
Sysane
Apr 19, 2007 13:25:21 Personally, I feel most of the Green Age religions were more like elemental cults. Charismatic and influential elemental clerics could easily have persuaded commoners that their powers were derived from a omnipotent being and built a basis for a religion around that.

A prime example of this is the Square of Gundak (sp?) found in within the city of Yathazor. They're basically an Athasian version of Branch Davidians.
#13
zombiegleemax
Apr 19, 2007 23:36:18
Personally, I feel most of the Green Age religions were more like elemental cults. Charismatic and influential elemental clerics could easily have persuaded commoners that their powers were derived from a omnipotent being and built a basis for a religion around that.

They probably started out like that. I'm sure the fire elemental cleric was sincere in his belief that his powers came from a god of fire.

There probably are gods or were. The SK probably destroyed all temples and references to them. Having a god, be it real or fake, weakens the SK's rule over the city. It was probably done to consolidate power thousands of years ago.
#14
Mulhull
Apr 20, 2007 0:37:48 Also, what if those candles are centered around a conduit to the elemental plane of fire, that keeps them lit.

Remember that in 3rd edition clerics can worship a philosophy, etc, and in 2nd they can get up to 2nd level spells through thier own inner faith alone, though I didn't read this in the 2E player's handbook in the cleric description, is it in the 2E DMG?
#15
aggilus
Apr 20, 2007 9:21:34 Thanks to all for your insights. I have more background ideas to complete my story. Maybe Denning was just opening doors to DM to create Athas as they see fit.

Cheers

Rolando
#16
Sysane
Apr 20, 2007 10:35:27 Perhaps the rhulisti nature-masters, along with elemental clerics, created a sort of uber life-shaped device in order to channel elemental energy. This device would have boarded between Athas' prime material and the elemental planes. The existence of these devices would be lost after the events of the Rebirth and long forgotten.

Sometime in the early years of Green Age, the new races discovered that individuals of extraordinary faith could preform "miracles". With no better explanation of how this was possible, the Rebirth races attributed these supernatural acts to unseen gods. In reality, these miracles were actually the life-shaped devices responding to the subconscious desires of individuals of great conviction which simulated divine spell casting.

If you haven't guess it by now, these "life-shaped devices" would have been the Living Vortices. Once the Champions/SKs were bonded to them (by either Rajaat or Borys), these individual lay priests were no longer able to tap into them in order to cast spells.
#17
ruhl-than_sage
Apr 21, 2007 22:42:42 Very Clever. Perhaps there were many more Living Vortexs in the past which were used by powerful beings possing as gods to grant their faithful spells in exactly the same manor as Sorcerer Kings grant spells to their Templars today.
#18
Mulhull
Apr 22, 2007 0:13:02
Very Clever. Perhaps there were many more Living Vortexs in the past which were used by powerful beings possing as gods to grant their faithful spells in exactly the same manor as Sorcerer Kings grant spells to their Templars today.

Also, if you dominated a former champion could you make him give you elemental spells via the vortex?

And, are there any rules as to how many spells an SK can grant a templar. Why couldn't he keep passing him earthquake spells until whatever the SK wanted to was leveled?
#19
Sysane
Apr 22, 2007 8:42:17
Very Clever. Perhaps there were many more Living Vortexs in the past which were used by powerful beings possing as gods to grant their faithful spells in exactly the same manor as Sorcerer Kings grant spells to their Templars today.

Thats an interesting take on it. The only individuals that would have been able to achieve such an act in the early Green Age would have been high-level users of the Way or elemental clerics.

I'd lean more towards it being manifesters however. A cleric would have just converted a follower over to his patron element.

Personally, I'd subscribe that anyone with enough belief and conviction (both a high Wis & Chr) would have been able to call upon the power of their god (aka the Living Vortices) to produce a 0-2 level spell effect. It wasn't till the SKs were bonded to them that the energies from the LV would be focused to grant a being access to higher level spells.
#20
gilliard_derosan
Apr 22, 2007 10:29:57 There is also nothing to stop you from simply sayng that the shrine was to Thor or Tiamat, or some Standard D&D God. It is your world, and no one is stopping you from determining that several thousand years ago, some worshipper somehow found himself stranded on Athas with no way home, and so set up a shrine to his God hoping for some divine intervention..

If you read the Prism Pentad, I even thing the Dwarves mention that they used to worship some other Gods as well. Just because there are no actual, or physical manifestations of Gods on Athas, doesn't mean people can't worship them.

It just means that there is no actual in-game benefit to the worshipping of Gods, except that warm fuzzy feeling deep down.
#21
Sysane
Apr 22, 2007 19:06:07 I've given this a bit more thought.

What if the nature-masters crafted a Living Vortices for each of the Rebirth Races in order to safeguard them and act as a sort of warden? It would only make sense for the rhulisti to have taken some type of precautions to ensure that the new races survived during their early years.

What better way than creating the said new races “gods”?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 aggilus Apr 18, 2007 11:18:07	Hello list members I´m re-reading the prism pentad book to get ideas for my new campaing. Since english is not my mother language the first time I read it I didn't get all of the meanings. In chapter eleven of Verdant passage Ktandeo leads Sadira and Agis to under Tyr's Crimson Shrine and explains to them that the faith of the wraith in its god is what keeps the candles light. The supposed god is a eagle-headed figure. Ktandeo said 2000 year ago Tyr was a city built around the temple in a forest. I searched quicky the earth, air, fire and water supplement and the reference to old gods is that no one knows for sure if old god existed. Does any of the templars of athas.org has any information? Or any other member list had worked on this? Or is this one of those inconsistencies in the product line? Thanks to all for the feedback Rolando
#2 brun01 Apr 18, 2007 12:47:17	Actually, that dude is a raaig. Check page 67 of Terrors of the Deadlands for more information.
#3 Kamelion Apr 18, 2007 13:32:32	Faith in a god does not mean that the god is real. The Crimson Shrine is a good example of this. Although the issue was blurred for a few years, it was eventually explicitly stated in City by the Silt Sea that Athas has no gods and has never had any gods. That doesn't mean, of course, that it has never had faiths and worshippers...
#4 aggilus Apr 18, 2007 13:37:33	Actually, that dude is a raaig. Check page 67 of Terrors of the Deadlands for more information. Thanks for pointing me to ToDL accessory but the Raaig is not the creature I was reffering to. Indeed the raaig was protecting the crimson shrine but who was the God it was servant/believer before turning to undead? a god to recreate? the eagle-headed figure (depicted flying in the colored glass windows of the Crimson Shrine? Thanks again Rolando
#5 Pennarin Apr 18, 2007 14:18:44	Thanks for pointing me to ToDL accessory but the Raaig is not the creature I was reffering to. Indeed the raaig was protecting the crimson shrine but who was the God it was servant/believer before turning to undead? a god to recreate? the eagle-headed figure (depicted flying in the colored glass windows of the Crimson Shrine? I never met Thor personnaly, or Shiva...and I don't expect the shrine believer - before or after he turned to undeath - ever met that eagle-headed god of his either. Anyone met God? Anyone?? Bueller? /mischievous :P
#6 kalthandrix Apr 18, 2007 14:20:04	Thanks for pointing me to ToDL accessory but the Raaig is not the creature I was reffering to. Indeed the raaig was protecting the crimson shrine but who was the God it was servant/believer before turning to undead? a god to recreate? the eagle-headed figure (depicted flying in the colored glass windows of the Crimson Shrine? Thanks again Rolando No one knows - it has been thought that maybe he was an advanced being or powerful psion from the Green Age. Aside from that, well we got nothing to go off of.
#7 cnahumck Apr 18, 2007 14:35:56	Anyone met God? Anyone?? Bueller? I have. It was... interesting. Pertaining to the thread, I am reminded of City by the Silt Sea, There is a Fire Giant that is a cleric. He worships another god from outside of Athas, and still gets 1st and 2nd level spells. It was the case in 2ed that 1st and 2nd level spells were given based on your faith. The interesting thing to me is that it doesn't really matter, clerics on Athas can worship the elements and have no clue that they are.
#8 aggilus Apr 18, 2007 14:51:03	No one knows - it has been thought that maybe he was an advanced being or powerful psion from the Green Age. Aside from that, well we got nothing to go off of. Thanks. That means I can create it from scratch. Rolando
#9 ruhl-than_sage Apr 18, 2007 18:49:27	I have. It was... interesting. Pertaining to the thread, I am reminded of City by the Silt Sea, There is a Fire Giant that is a cleric. He worships another god from outside of Athas, and still gets 1st and 2nd level spells. It was the case in 2ed that 1st and 2nd level spells were given based on your faith. The interesting thing to me is that it doesn't really matter, clerics on Athas can worship the elements and have no clue that they are. That might be the case with this eagleheaded god as well, it could easily be a representation of the Air and/or Sun Spirits.
#10 dirk00001 Apr 19, 2007 10:02:39	That might be the case with this eagleheaded god as well, it could easily be a representation of the Air and/or Sun Spirits. That idea, as well as the concept that some "divine powers" were really just aspects of psionic potential manifested due to one's belief in a Higher Being, are the two I prescribe to when talking about the "old gods." When the Rhulisti repopulated the world during the Rebirth they basically had to "start fresh," without any real background to build their beliefs and societies off of, so unlike earth societies they didn't have any real starting point from which to develop ideas such as divinity, psionics, and the like. IIRC the only form of magic present before the Rebirth was elemental magic, and even psionics didn't come until post-Rebirth, and if that's the case I can easily imagine how spontaneous psionic manifestations could have been interpreted by certain individuals as "the will of (a) god". In time most figured out what it really was, but belief is a powerful thing and so there'd always be those who would hold onto this idea even after it was "discovered" that these powers came from a totally separate source. Hell, look at people today - not to get into a religious debate or anything, but there are still a large number of people who believe in certain religious teachings despite the fact that modern-day science (...or even just common sense, in some cases) has come up with much more realistic explainations and such that overrule their ideas.
#11 ruhl-than_sage Apr 19, 2007 12:37:54	Yah, that makes sense too and who's to say that it isn't the will of some god.;)
#12 Sysane Apr 19, 2007 13:25:21	Personally, I feel most of the Green Age religions were more like elemental cults. Charismatic and influential elemental clerics could easily have persuaded commoners that their powers were derived from a omnipotent being and built a basis for a religion around that. A prime example of this is the Square of Gundak (sp?) found in within the city of Yathazor. They're basically an Athasian version of Branch Davidians.
#13 zombiegleemax Apr 19, 2007 23:36:18	Personally, I feel most of the Green Age religions were more like elemental cults. Charismatic and influential elemental clerics could easily have persuaded commoners that their powers were derived from a omnipotent being and built a basis for a religion around that. They probably started out like that. I'm sure the fire elemental cleric was sincere in his belief that his powers came from a god of fire. There probably are gods or were. The SK probably destroyed all temples and references to them. Having a god, be it real or fake, weakens the SK's rule over the city. It was probably done to consolidate power thousands of years ago.
#14 Mulhull Apr 20, 2007 0:37:48	Also, what if those candles are centered around a conduit to the elemental plane of fire, that keeps them lit. Remember that in 3rd edition clerics can worship a philosophy, etc, and in 2nd they can get up to 2nd level spells through thier own inner faith alone, though I didn't read this in the 2E player's handbook in the cleric description, is it in the 2E DMG?
#15 aggilus Apr 20, 2007 9:21:34	Thanks to all for your insights. I have more background ideas to complete my story. Maybe Denning was just opening doors to DM to create Athas as they see fit. Cheers Rolando
#16 Sysane Apr 20, 2007 10:35:27	Perhaps the rhulisti nature-masters, along with elemental clerics, created a sort of uber life-shaped device in order to channel elemental energy. This device would have boarded between Athas' prime material and the elemental planes. The existence of these devices would be lost after the events of the Rebirth and long forgotten. Sometime in the early years of Green Age, the new races discovered that individuals of extraordinary faith could preform "miracles". With no better explanation of how this was possible, the Rebirth races attributed these supernatural acts to unseen gods. In reality, these miracles were actually the life-shaped devices responding to the subconscious desires of individuals of great conviction which simulated divine spell casting. If you haven't guess it by now, these "life-shaped devices" would have been the Living Vortices. Once the Champions/SKs were bonded to them (by either Rajaat or Borys), these individual lay priests were no longer able to tap into them in order to cast spells.
#17 ruhl-than_sage Apr 21, 2007 22:42:42	Very Clever. Perhaps there were many more Living Vortexs in the past which were used by powerful beings possing as gods to grant their faithful spells in exactly the same manor as Sorcerer Kings grant spells to their Templars today.
#18 Mulhull Apr 22, 2007 0:13:02	Very Clever. Perhaps there were many more Living Vortexs in the past which were used by powerful beings possing as gods to grant their faithful spells in exactly the same manor as Sorcerer Kings grant spells to their Templars today. Also, if you dominated a former champion could you make him give you elemental spells via the vortex? And, are there any rules as to how many spells an SK can grant a templar. Why couldn't he keep passing him earthquake spells until whatever the SK wanted to was leveled?
#19 Sysane Apr 22, 2007 8:42:17	Very Clever. Perhaps there were many more Living Vortexs in the past which were used by powerful beings possing as gods to grant their faithful spells in exactly the same manor as Sorcerer Kings grant spells to their Templars today. Thats an interesting take on it. The only individuals that would have been able to achieve such an act in the early Green Age would have been high-level users of the Way or elemental clerics. I'd lean more towards it being manifesters however. A cleric would have just converted a follower over to his patron element. Personally, I'd subscribe that anyone with enough belief and conviction (both a high Wis & Chr) would have been able to call upon the power of their god (aka the Living Vortices) to produce a 0-2 level spell effect. It wasn't till the SKs were bonded to them that the energies from the LV would be focused to grant a being access to higher level spells.
#20 gilliard_derosan Apr 22, 2007 10:29:57	There is also nothing to stop you from simply sayng that the shrine was to Thor or Tiamat, or some Standard D&D God. It is your world, and no one is stopping you from determining that several thousand years ago, some worshipper somehow found himself stranded on Athas with no way home, and so set up a shrine to his God hoping for some divine intervention.. If you read the Prism Pentad, I even thing the Dwarves mention that they used to worship some other Gods as well. Just because there are no actual, or physical manifestations of Gods on Athas, doesn't mean people can't worship them. It just means that there is no actual in-game benefit to the worshipping of Gods, except that warm fuzzy feeling deep down.
#21 Sysane Apr 22, 2007 19:06:07	I've given this a bit more thought. What if the nature-masters crafted a Living Vortices for each of the Rebirth Races in order to safeguard them and act as a sort of warden? It would only make sense for the rhulisti to have taken some type of precautions to ensure that the new races survived during their early years. What better way than creating the said new races “gods”?