Havard
saw that one coming! (Sheesh, I've been using a lot of emoticons today.) I wonder if any of the Mystaran easter eggs that were in line will find themselves in Pathfinder? Hopefully Mike will stop by soon and give us the scoop.:OMG! Not even my
Lets hope so, but lets face it: Paizo will no longer be allowed to publish Campaign Classics type articles. If there are easter eggs, they will have to be properly concealed.
I am wondering if they will finnish the STAP before the lisence is ended.
All in all, this makes me very sad
Havard
I am wondering if they will finnish the STAP before the lisence is ended.
The STAP has always been set to end in #150, which is the last issue of Dungeon that will be published.
Uhm, this means our hopes to see more VotPA stuff, even as celebrative events, are down to nothing...
Not necessarily, as Wizards is going to be publishing Dragon and Dungeon in an online format here on their site. How exactly that will work remains to be seen (as I recall, they originally discontinued and licensed the magazines to Paizo because they weren't able/willing to provide the staff to support such, and I'm not really clear how/why that has suddenly changed, even in the switch from print to digital).
It's possible that, with all the content being here online they might be more open to publishing material that relates to their out of print worlds, or that they will simply retain a "once in a while" attitude towards such that the magazines have been long known for. It's also possible that your fears are right, and that we'll not see the likes of anything Mystara related again.
In any event, the days of the actual print publication seem to be ended for these titles, and I'm really disappointed in that. I will wait and see what WotC has in store for them, but I suspect that I won't be subscribing to their service for the mags- I just don't really like the notion of online magazines.
Lets hope so, but lets face it: Paizo will no longer be allowed to publish Campaign Classics type articles. If there are easter eggs, they will have to be properly concealed.
I am wondering if they will finnish the STAP before the lisence is ended.
All in all, this makes me very sad
Havard
It said they will publish up to Dungeon #150, which was to be the conclusion of Savage Tide. I wonder if they will be able to put the old issues out in pdf form or be able to publish a Savage Tide Compilation.
We can be optimistic about WotC's new online project. I'm guessing it will be of very high quality. However, Paizo has taken much better care of the OOP worlds than WotC ever has. I fear we will be seeing excusively Ebberon/FR/General content...
I dont care much for online mags, but if I knew there was Mystara contents there I would probably be willing to pay for it..
Havard
I wonder if they will be able to put the old issues out in pdf form or be able to publish a Savage Tide Compilation.
Unlikely, seeing as they have thus far been unable to get permission to release an Age of Worms HC.
I dont care much for online mags, but if I knew there was Mystara contents there I would probably be willing to pay for it..
So long as there's an option to buy single issues (like I would at the newsstand), I'll willingly pick up anything with Mystara content.
Then again, I would like the option to preview it first like I do at the newsstand, which an online magazine is unlikely to offer.
Now it looks like the wizard Gargantua adventuer will never see print...thwarted again for the second time in twenty years!
I am really uncertain about them switching to an online model. Online publishing is the way of the future, but is WoTC really going to be producing the equivalent of 24 magazines a year in online articles? Even if they do, I doubt it will be the quality Paizo has done with its freelancers.
Thankfully STAP will finish. Future adventure paths are most likely going to be in new campaign settings rather than classic ones though.
Here's hoping WoTC does publish Dungeon Mag quality adventures online, including Gargantua!
Not necessarily, as Wizards is going to be publishing Dragon and Dungeon in an online format here on their site.
WotC has its own market goals, which do not include Mystara. Paizo also seems (seemed) generally more interested in the discontinued worlds -- maybe due to a slightly different target market.
GP
Lets hope so, but lets face it: Paizo will no longer be allowed to publish Campaign Classics type articles. If there are easter eggs, they will have to be properly concealed.
well there was no joy in the last Campaign Classics issue anyway ...
I am wondering if they will finnish the STAP before the lisence is ended.
All in all, this makes me very sad
Havard
but yes, it is quite a shock and dissappointing too
WotC has its own market goals, which do not include Mystara.
No doubt, but at the same time, one of the major reasons they were discontinuing their support for those other campaign worlds was according to WotC reports due to not wanting to oversaturate their market and dilute the brand.
Now that they're doing online content, available exclusively here (one assumes), where a large portion of their customer base is extant on the message boards of these discontinued worlds, I would think it might not be too great a stretch to see them put out more content designed to appeal to them. The biggest consumers of such magazines, IMO, would be the people here on the boards, and it would make sense to try and reach all of the consumers.
Then again, a) I'm not a marketing/sales type of person so what do I know, and b) WotC originally gave Dragon and Dungeon to Paizo because they were trying to focus on their core elements of design and development- they were going to get rid of the magazines altogether, as I recall, before Lisa Stevens came along with Paizo- so something changed in their heads that they suddenly decided they were capable of expanding their interests again across the brand, and they may very well have no intention or desire of having anything to do with their Other Worlds again.
Maybe they'll put out an Other Worlds online magazine? That would be cool.
Maybe they'll put out an Other Worlds online magazine? That would be cool.
I like how you are keeping a positive attitude about this Andrew. I am still sad that the magazines as we know them are gone and tha Paizo who did a darn good job with them won't be running the show anymore.
But perhaps you have a point that not all is lost here. Maybe there is even a possibility to gain something from this. If we could somehow influence the guys at WotC to give some attention to the OOP worlds on this "online contents" project that would be very nice.
A magazine aimed specifically at Other Worlds, with say a Mystara (or Savage Coast, Hollow World etc) installment every 3rd month wouldn't just be great, it would be amazing!
If I would have to pay a yearly subscription to get an online magazine that featured mostly generic/FR/Ebberon/Greyhawk stuff and a Mystara article once per year (or less), I probably wouldn't go for that.
Though I'd probably try to get my hands on that specific article through some other means...
Though I'd probably try to get my hands on that specific article through some other means...
:P
:P
:evillaugh
Anyway...
Anyone planning on checking out Pathfinder?
The first AP does not sound very Mystara friendly...
Might work for Blackmoor though...
Havard
Anyone planning on checking out Pathfinder?
I'll give it a look (the current dollar/pound exchange rate is quite favourable)
It's a shame their first non Dungeon AP isn't Mystara compatable. After see about their campaign world.
I'm not interested in paying for online content from WotC, so I guess I'll be saving a few quid each month - just enough for a couple of
Regards
Gary
Anyone planning on checking out Pathfinder?
I'm thinking about it. I enjoyed reading Dungeon just for ideas for my game. I have to admit that I never ran a single one of the 30e/35e modules until recently though.
It will really depend on what the new Pazio world is like. I asked on the Pazio board if they would provide a description, ala as of the Known World in X1, of Varisia (the new world's name).
--Ray.
I like how you are keeping a positive attitude about this Andrew. I am still sad that the magazines as we know them are gone and tha Paizo who did a darn good job with them won't be running the show anymore.
Well- my attitude really isn't quite as positive as it may be coming across.
I'm not a big fan of digital magazine content, and especially won't be pleased if its an "all or nothing" sort of subscription, but I'll wait to see before I get too bent out of shape.
I really wish WotC had some more information forthcoming- previews or something of their new digital initiative. Paizo has been in constant communication with their customers, and have been previewing and discussing their change in format, and we've heard next to nothing from WotC, who have known about this at least as long as Paizo. I'm not a marketing person or anything, but that just screams "we dropped the ball!" to me. It doesn't engender a lot of goodwill.
As I said, though- I would think them putting content for "other worlds" in their online magazines would be a great way of appealing directly to the entirety of their online customer base and draw more attention to the magazines. It could also involve the community a lot more (especially as they'd need someone to create that content for them, and who better?). Remains to be seen if they'll do this or not, but it could be a good opportunity for them.
Darn it!
Now it looks like the wizard Gargantua adventuer will never see print...thwarted again for the second time in twenty years!
I am really uncertain about them switching to an online model. Online publishing is the way of the future, but is WoTC really going to be producing the equivalent of 24 magazines a year in online articles? Even if they do, I doubt it will be the quality Paizo has done with its freelancers.
Thankfully STAP will finish. Future adventure paths are most likely going to be in new campaign settings rather than classic ones though.
Here's hoping WoTC does publish Dungeon Mag quality adventures online, including Gargantua!
It is my understanding (so take this with a glacier of salt) that there is some sort of transition going on with the current spate of queries (and finished manuscripts that won't see release before the magazines finish their run) sitting at Paizo. Whether this means that my and my fellow freelancers will see their work published through Wizards (or Paizo) remains to be seen, they were after all just queries (and even accepted manuscripts can be rejected). I am particularly sorry though because I fielded more than a half-dozen Mystara queries to Paizo (mostly because of all the support "Masque of Dreams" got - thanks guys). I must say that I liked some of them mightily and to strip them down to "Generic Game World X" would be tough (and unapealing) for a few of them.
GGG
It is my understanding (so take this with a glacier of salt) that there is some sort of transition going on with the current spate of queries (and finished manuscripts that won't see release before the magazines finish their run) sitting at Paizo. Whether this means that my and my fellow freelancers will see their work published through Wizards (or Paizo) remains to be seen, they were after all just queries (and even accepted manuscripts can be rejected). I am particularly sorry though because I fielded more than a half-dozen Mystara queries to Paizo (mostly because of all the support "Masque of Dreams" got - thanks guys). I must say that I liked some of them mightily and to strip them down to "Generic Game World X" would be tough (and unapealing) for a few of them.
I wouldnt rule it out. Since this is a new thing for Wizard's I suspect they could be more willing to try out such things in the early phase than later on. We'll see though...
Havard
I think they should say forget helping WOTC sell the current settings and get together articles and adventures from classic settings and classic authors for one last hoorah for the rest of the months ahead. I'm sure Bruce has some old ideas lying around or at least some old friends lying around. The only WOTC thing they would have to print out would be the Savage tide adventure. I mean it isn't like WOTC is going to get mad and take the contract away! :P
No matter what I think we can all say THANK YOU Paizo, TSR and all others for making a 30+ years of the worlds most popular magazines for the worlds most popular rpg running.
As childish as this might sound....
I think they should say forget helping WOTC sell the current settings and get together articles and adventures from classic settings and classic authors for one last hoorah for the rest of the months ahead. I'm sure Bruce has some old ideas lying around or at least some old friends lying around. The only WOTC thing they would have to print out would be the Savage tide adventure. I mean it isn't like WOTC is going to get mad and take the contract away! :P
No matter what I think we can all say THANK YOU Paizo, TSR and all others for making a 30+ years of the worlds most popular magazines for the worlds most popular rpg running.
I love that idea!
No doubt, but at the same time, one of the major reasons they were discontinuing their support for those other campaign worlds was according to WotC reports due to not wanting to oversaturate their market and dilute the brand.
Exactly. Which is why, from their point of view, they should not publish anything on those worlds.
Actually, I am under the impression that Paizo was pushing the "other" worlds more than WotC liked.
Roger
Exactly. Which is why, from their point of view, they should not publish anything on those worlds.
I see your point, but to me it doesn't seem like it would be doing any harm, and might be doing more good.
They are already getting back into the matter of diluting their own brand by re-publishing the magazines, in whatever form it takes. It seems to me (from my non-business perspective) that as they've already got the audience here for their other worlds and projects, they would be more successful at marketing these magazines online by appealing to the broader base.
In other words- they've once more split their market by providing Core Products (adventures, campaign settings) in addition to this online magazine, so why not try to get more subscribers to online content by providing those of us who already come here with a reason to buy?
Actually, I am under the impression that Paizo was pushing the "other" worlds more than WotC liked.
I didn't really get that impression myself- if anything, Wizards seems to be hopping on that same bandwagon by putting out things like "Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk", "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft", etc.
Oh No! No more funnies...Burn in the Abyss You heartless Villains!
First Snarf Quest now this...
I didn't really get that impression myself- if anything, Wizards seems to be hopping on that same bandwagon by putting out things like "Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk", "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft", etc.
Greyhawk is still the setting for generic modules (so people will need no background on the powers, for example), and Ravenloft is usable as a detour in an existing non Ravenloft campaign (which is what a re-edition of the original module fits -- you don't build a real Ravenloft campaign on killing Strahd). None of these add anything to the existing world, though -- they are standalones targeted to people who may or, more likely, may not know the originals. Mystara (and Dark Sun and Birthright) don't fit either model.
OTOH, the VotPA article in Dragon requires knowledge of the setting -- otherwise it won't tell much -- and is clearly oriented to a "veteran" audience (i.e., it's something I'm interested in).
http://www.dragonlance.com/features/articles/10040.aspx
What is WotC up to?
Havard
Dragonlance is also not being renewed:
http://www.dragonlance.com/features/articles/10040.aspx
What is WotC up to?
One possibility is that WotC is relying less on the core books sales (by now, even the "3.5" wave of sales should be exhausted, so they should be selling core books mostly to new players). So, the licensed products are more likely to generate competition for WotC products, so that licensing agreements become less interesting for WotC.
P.S.: I've been reading some considerations by Monte Cook (you can reach them from EnWorld's front page) more or less on the same lines as what I wrote hereabove...
One possibility is that WotC is relying less on the core books sales (by now, even the "3.5" wave of sales should be exhausted, so they should be selling core books mostly to new players). So, the licensed products are more likely to generate competition for WotC products, so that licensing agreements become less interesting for WotC.
Seems likely. I wonder though, if they would look to publish material for these settings themselves or try to bring the customers over to FR, Ebberron or possibly new settings...
If there was some way to convince WotC to revive the old settings...
Havard
Seems likely. I wonder though, if they would look to publish material for these settings themselves
According to the strategies laid out by WotC early in the 3e time, it would be an error, as it would lower the return per product, by distributing sales across several product lines.
If there was some way to convince WotC to revive the old settings...
There's really no reason why they should. And I don't even feel the need -- if the old settings were to be adapted to the expectations of the current audience, they would probably not be as interesting for me.
GP
According to the strategies laid out by WotC early in the 3e time, it would be an error, as it would lower the return per product, by distributing sales across several product lines.
True. But is that still their working strategy? Or has the market become saturated with FR/Ebberon stuff and generic rule stuff?
There's really no reason why they should. And I don't even feel the need -- if the old settings were to be adapted to the expectations of the current audience, they would probably not be as interesting for me.
Each to his own. But regardless of how it was handled, any attention to Mystara by WotC could draw more people here and stimulate further discussions on these boards, which would be nice.
But we have already proven that we can keep Mystara alive on our own!
Havard
True. But is that still their working strategy? Or has the market become saturated with FR/Ebberon stuff and generic rule stuff?
Each to his own. But regardless of how it was handled, any attention to Mystara by WotC could draw more people here and stimulate further discussions on these boards, which would be nice.
But we have already proven that we can keep Mystara alive on our own!
Havard
I don't know about FR/Eberron saturation- FR seems to still be real popular here. Eberron has never sold well in my area. There is a ton of generic stuff available,as well as specialty settings.
Dungeon posed competition to WotC published modules (I haven't even looked at the 3.5 modules WotC has published, but I definitely gave Dungeon some ducats for their adventures). Dragon gave advertising space to competitor's products (and it is one of the few print mags that you could get any advertising value in).
My gut tells me WotC wants you to think of WotC products when you have gaming needs, not Green Ronin and the other d20 publishers. Maybe they are thinking of 4th edition and don't want as many products out there competing for the gaming dollars. I don't know.... but something is definitely up with this.
But one thing am fairly positive of is that it will be very unlikely they will give Mystara a second thought. In the end, that may not be a bad thing, as we have done a pretty good job with so it far.
In the end, that may not be a bad thing, as we have done a pretty good job with so far.
I think that's probably the best part of all of this. Regardless of the outcomes of WotC pulling the licenses of the various magazines and settings (Dragonlance lost theirs too), the Mystara fans will continue to create and convert.
--Ray.
I do miss the hey-days of TSR as much as the rest. Many people feel that WOTC has altered the game in a typical capitalistic way. But let us not forget the number one reason why WOTC bought D&D in the first place. TO SAVE IT!WOTC has been loose with D&D licensing. Dragonlance and Ravenloft still survive because their publishing has been shared. Lately the D20 system has shown more diversity in D&D products since the 80s.
I will miss the full page and bullet advertising that came with dragon. (In fact that is some of the reasons I still have old issues of Dragon and Dungeon. RAFM, Ral Partha, The world's largest dungeon!) Yet magazines are being replaced with .com. It often tends to be for the better.
Imagine a world where your adventure gets published without having to worry about not having enough space or the cost of the length in pages. Imagine having a data base larger than the Dragon Archives at your finger tips for a monthly price. Imagine not having to flip through or have an index, just simply type in what you want. Image links to all official and unofficial pages and advertisers that are present every time you want them, not just in some issues. Wouldn't it be great to have some of that Dragon magazine art available for use like it is on the WOTC home page?
The D&D community is not as big of a market as AOL/Time. It takes the entire marketing and player community to make D&D function in the 21st century. Though an internet database doesn't have the flare of a magazine we should all look forward to this change as something that we can help create. I challenge everyone to tell WOTC what you hope to see in the future of role playing games.
Besides I'd rather pay $12 a month for a database than $12 for WOW or some other "RPG" video game experience.
The future of fantasy is reality!
Yet magazines are being replaced with .com. It often tends to be for the better.
Actually, as others have pointed out, we've already replaced the lack of commercial interest for Mystara with our own writings (and maps, etc.).
Though an internet database doesn't have the flare of a magazine we should all look forward to this change as something that we can help create.
Past the DM Archive, I've bought a single DM issue -- you may imagine which one. What I don't like of this move is therefore not the disappearance of a magazine I basically don't read/buy, but the fact that one of the already very few possible sources of further Mystara lore (true to the setting) is basically disappearing -- no matter how good the replacement will be, it won't have one more VotPA article.
Besides I'd rather pay $12 a month for a database than $12 for WOW or some other "RPG" video game experience.
Besides the fact that I don't like subscription-based stuff, I suppose it depends on the content of each -- $12 for "Planescape: Torment" are probably better spent than for one month (or one year) of 3e stuff.
If they decide to do it like all the other $4.00 downloads you can always "preview" the file (issue) from a friend.
No matter what to a certain extent WOTC must give some type of product that will denote ownership of the material. Such as a file like mp3/pdfs are. That means you could save the article on your desktop and transfer it on to your laptop for use during game play.
And no WOTC has not published anything for Mystara, but they also haven't published a lot of other gaming world materials. I don't think WOTC is interested in dropping a long time fan base for risky newer materials it is just that WOTC can't afford to publish it in print. WOTC hasn't dropped this or any of the other world's forums.
The VAULT is doing a great job. Don't forget that the Vault is Mystara's current home and it too is online.
What ever happens, Good things for the future!
And no WOTC has not published anything for Mystara, but they also haven't published a lot of other gaming world materials. I don't think WOTC is interested in dropping a long time fan base for risky newer materials it is just that WOTC can't afford to publish it in print.
Odd, because it's what it has done all these past 6 years ;) with some success.
The VAULT is doing a great job. Don't forget that the Vault is Mystara's current home and it too is online.
Let's also not forget that it's not WotC who's writing the Vaults -- it's us.
I think that's probably the best part of all of this. Regardless of the outcomes of WotC pulling the licenses of the various magazines and settings (Dragonlance lost theirs too), the Mystara fans will continue to create and convert.
--Ray.
my only thought is, is this current spate of not renewing licences going to have any impact on the official Other Worlds sites, like the Vaults? Of course I haven't heard anything in this direction.
my only thought is, is this current spate of not renewing licences going to have any impact on the official Other Worlds sites, like the Vaults? Of course I haven't heard anything in this direction.
Good question. I wouldn't imagine so, just given the connection of those sites with the "official" WotC site, and the fact that we aren't putting out any sort of for profit publications or anything. I hope they will let you know before they make any blanket announcements, though.
Good question. I wouldn't imagine so, just given the connection of those sites with the "official" WotC site, and the fact that we aren't putting out any sort of for profit publications or anything. I hope they will let you know before they make any blanket announcements, though.
same here mate
IIRC, the Ravenloft license was a 5-year deal which, right from the start, never had the intention of being renewed. DL has lasted 3 years. I'm not sure how long Paizo has held their license.
Again, this is wishful thinking, but what if WotC (or Hasbro) has a non-publicly-disclosed policy of X number of licenses at any given time?
Roger
IIRC, the Ravenloft license was a 5-year deal which, right from the start, never had the intention of being renewed. DL has lasted 3 years. I'm not sure how long Paizo has held their license.
Both DL and Paizo have been (and were) 4 year licenses. DL was licensed to Sovereign Press in March 2002 (the game line, not the novel line, which WotC continued to publish), and Dragon/Dungeon were licensed to Paizo in July of 2002.
*Note- on the exact length of the license by contract I couldn't say for certain, though I saw someone post on another board that it was indeed a 4 year contract (pretty sure it was someone "official" though I don't recall nor can I find offhand where I saw it. In any event, it has been 4 years for each.
Also, from what I can tell, Ravenloft was licensed out in 2001 to Arthaus games, and the license returned to WotC in 2005- another four year period. Given the pattern, I'm guessing the 4 years is the standard licensing arrangement on these things.
Being more optimistic than I actually feel, given the apparent timing of the license expirations, I'm wondering if WotC isn't simply allowing them to revert while they trot out their new Digital Initiative just to see how that program goes before allowing any new licenses to be arranged- ie, they want to focus on the DI for now, but aren't going to "hoard" their licenses, just wait to make sure their new program goes off first. We'll see, I guess.
Yet magazines are being replaced with .com. It often tends to be for the better.
Not for me.
Imagine a world where your adventure gets published without having to worry about not having enough space or the cost of the length in pages. Imagine having a data base larger than the Dragon Archives at your finger tips for a monthly price. Imagine not having to flip through or have an index, just simply type in what you want. Image links to all official and unofficial pages and advertisers that are present every time you want them, not just in some issues. Wouldn't it be great to have some of that Dragon magazine art available for use like it is on the WOTC home page?
Imagine a world where you have to be in front of a computer screen in order to read a magazine.
Imagine a world where I no longer have a paper mag that I can carry with me to read anywhere I want.
Imagine a world where I can no longer collect the magazine because it's electronic.
Nope. Not a fan and I won't support it. Pathfinder for me.
I challenge everyone to tell WOTC what you hope to see in the future of role playing games.
What I hope to see is a return to what has been canceled. I've already told them that.
I still play Mystara based on Rules Cyclopedia and anything published before. I don't think that AD&D 2nd edition was very kind to the world of Mystara. I still won't convert it to 3.5. (So change isn't something I look forward to in Mystara.) But this has nothing to do with Dragon or Dungeon.
I really think we should work to tell WOTC what we want for the future of Dragon and Dungeon. I don't believe they should even call their next product the same name because it won't be. Dragon and Dungeon were magazines about role playing games. They weren't just magazines about FR, Greyhawk, and a continuous adventure. They were information about GenCon, Marvel Super Heroes, and fantasy novels. They were witty comics and a place were young game developers could test out the waters of the industries with modules, pull out table top games and ideas. Dragon and Dungeon were magazines about the experience of playing the game and ideas to take it for all it is worth.
I too fear that this will be lost when the magazines fall from the shelves.
I thing now before WOTC has any concrete ideas on a product is to provide feedback on what the gamer wants.
I thing now before WOTC has any concrete ideas on a product is to provide feedback on what the gamer wants.
I think they do have at least some concrete ideas about the e-product they want to roll out, they just haven't given us a hint of that yet. Maybe they haven't hammered out all the details yet, but I have to believe that there is a plan in the process of being rolled out.
Aww screw them anyways...WOTC... I'm going to do more research and maybe make up some modules or ideas you guys might like after I play test a couple of things. Look for more fan based fun in the future! Always on the lookout for something new about Mystara!
That's been my attitude lately. :D I have come to the said realization over the last week or so that I am no longer in WotC's target audience. They seem to be moving away from what I would like them to produce. I guess it's on to fan produced Mystara stuff for me.
They were witty comics and a place were young game developers could test out the waters of the industries with modules, pull out table top games and ideas. Dragon and Dungeon were magazines about the experience of playing the game and ideas to take it for all it is worth.
I too fear that this will be lost when the magazines fall from the shelves.
Here you're right. I might add that a non-WotC Dragon/Dungeon was also (at least for what we can see) more attentive towards the discontinued setting -- if not for anything else, at least because Paizo doesn't have a direct interest in supporting FR/Eberron.
GP
That's been my attitude lately. :D I have come to the said realization over the last week or so that I am no longer in WotC's target audience. They seem to be moving away from what I would like them to produce. I guess it's on to fan produced Mystara stuff for me.
I think that WotC are interested in Mystarophiles as a target audience, and would like to make it work (along with other OOP worlds) as they want to sell products that will make a profit. If their accountants felt that they could make the most amount of money from selling licenses for OOP worlds they would continue doing that, but I'm hoping that they saw an economic viability in those markets that caused them to reconsider their objectives. Remember that they also withdrew the license from Hackmaster to rework Classic D&D modules, and to produce Mystaros' Hackwurld guide to the Known World. I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't all related.
Still rotten in Denmark though!
I'm going to stop talking about this topic now.
I think that WotC are interested in Mystarophiles as a target audience, and would like to make it work (along with other OOP worlds) as they want to sell products that will make a profit. If their accountants felt that they could make the most amount of money from selling licenses for OOP worlds they would continue doing that, but I'm hoping that they saw an economic viability in those markets that caused them to reconsider their objectives. Remember that they also withdrew the license from Hackmaster to rework Classic D&D modules, and to produce Mystaros' Hackwurld guide to the Known World. I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't all related.
I think that while they would like to sell products to us, many of us do not fall into their target audience. Many people here prefer OD&D, with some AD&D and 3.5E people thrown in. OD&D is rules light, leaving the DM to fill in the blanks as needed. Although I use 3.5E, we try to run our games in the spirit of OD&D. 3.5E can quickly devolve into powergaming and rules lawyering due to an almost excessive number of rules. Good DMing can help this, but the game is meant to appeal to an audience that plays MMOs, and has tons of other easily available entertainment options.
I think that while they would like to sell products to us, many of us do not fall into their target audience. Many people here prefer OD&D, with some AD&D and 3.5E people thrown in. OD&D is rules light, leaving the DM to fill in the blanks as needed. Although I use 3.5E, we try to run our games in the spirit of OD&D. 3.5E can quickly devolve into powergaming and rules lawyering due to an almost excessive number of rules. Good DMing can help this, but the game is meant to appeal to an audience that plays MMOs, and has tons of other easily available entertainment options.
Given the multiple worlds that TSR, WotC and now Hasbro have created, I'm not to sure where they think their "fat-tail" market lies. They will always continue with Forgotten Realms (just note how well the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Night's series have sold (and yes I have bought them both and enjoyed playing them)).
As for buying printed products I'm much more likely to buy a Mystara product than a Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or generic 3.5e product. (I quite like FR, but I will not by any products as I have absolutely no interest in DMing FR I will not buy anything in that line, mainly because I've never got on with even 2e rules, although I feel that they have made a sensible move from 2e to 3e/3.5e as they make more sense to me, but OD&D is far more rules light, and hence more fun to play and DM).
I'm sure that WotC/Hasbro have a plan of one sort or another wrt the OOP worlds, and canceling external licenses is part of that, but exactly what that is I don't know. But whatever it is they seem to be playing a long game.
Rob
But, I cannot withold my personal opinion, if you will bear with me (and maybe succor my self-pity)....
1) I am definitely old-school, and so most of these comments can be taken with that in mind, whether you find that to your liking, or not.
2) For a trip down memory lane (waxing nostalgic)... I started playing D&D in 1980 with the Erol Otis red box. I never "graduated" to AD&D, though I certainly perused its books and many ideas/rules, etc. I started acquiring and purchasing Dragon in earnest after high school, mostly in the 90's. I purchased for game material (as a DM), specific D&D articles, and hunted down and collected the entire series of the VotPA articles. Of course, I am a Mystarophile, and OD&D enthusiast, so I bought with those agendas in mind. I also collected most of the D&D adventures in Dungeon Magazine.
With the demise of old D&D, I still occassionally purchased Dragons and Dungeons for the same reasons -- interesting ideas and content, adventures I really liked, and Mystara-related info.
I think the content was getting less meaningful to old-school gamers with the advent of 3.5, and more so with the focus of Dragon being solely for players, recently. There is nothing wrong with that, I just don't see players going out and buying or subscribing to the mag's just to get new prestige classes every month (and having to ask their DM if they could add new rules and new classes to campaigns that are often carefully crafted -- how often to DMs use commercially-supported campaigns "straight out of the box" anyway? Maybe that's just rhetorical, I may be just guessing here). But, I'm sure there was some appeal to the younger generation meta-gamers out there.
I find support in this forum, I know, because I am among mostly old-school D&D players, though I try not to hold anything against the younger-generation players (I just am who I am).
I realize I am among friends here who love Mystara, and that is enough for me, and I am grateful for the several diehards who have continually posted to and contribued to Mystara and this forum over the years -- you have been inspiring and have kept a colorful game world that is very real to me very passionately alive.I also tired of continually seeing another article of "hooks for your campaign" articles that I seemed to keep running into recently (last year or so) whenever I'd flip through these mag's to look for content. I don't know why the older magazines appealed to me more. There always seemed to be more "ideas" in them, instead of another update or new creature/list of magic items for specific game world. And WOTC (mostly) kept changing the formatting of Dragon for some time, too, which definitely did not help keep their fan base (read: mostly old-school).
I did recently buy most of the Dungeon issues for the Savage Tid AP, and enjoyed reading a lot of the installments (hoping to some day run and use most of the material). Just hunting down the issues in my local stores was difficult, though, which speaks to how little it appealed (appeals) to the gamer who spontaneously makes these magazine purchases.
I have still been a pretty viable consumer -- I'm a big miniatures user, and I've hunted for and purchased a lot of the D&D mini's (mostly singles, but my forays into my local game shop help support the industry with my occassional impulse buys, too; I purchase all 3 of the recent large dragon miniatures for the game).
Note that I also make no claim to be schooled in any matters regarding marketing or economics.
But, per this announcement, and looking up some opinions from others (as referenced by RobJN, at EN World, and elsewhere), I agree with Monte Cook. He indicates that he thinks WoTC (and Hasbro) has made a mistake; they're really messing with the base they've established, and what little of the loyal old-school Dragon subscribers there might be left. Gary Gygax made some comments about how he would've changed little, or tried to retain some the introductory D&D box sets through the years (and tried to maintain their continuity); of course Gygax is talking about AD&D, and probably didn't have the vision to bring in new gamers with 3.5, but I digress (on that point).... Sorry, I don't have any references that I've linked to.
3) I think Cook is right. He also mentioned that Dragon was a great marketing vehicle for the new editions. In some other forums, gamers mention how they don't look forward to staring at a computer screen more than the 8 to 12+ hours a day that they already do (I don't, but let's face it, we live in the tech age, and how many gamers out there are computer geeks, too? quite a few, though I don't mean to over-generalize). I'm a bibliophile. I think a lot of intelligent gamers out there are, too.
I myself realize I will have to be bringing the computer to my gaming table, soon, to realize the type of game I want to play (and include a lot of the information about my "Mystara" that I want at my fingertips at the gaming table); but, I don't see the computer ever taking over the whole game, obviously. I'm not an MMO player (gosh, too little of my precious free time is given over to the tabletop game, anyway), and so much is lost from the in-person experience if the whole game went that way, anyway.
How many of you have a PC at your gaming table (as a DM, or even a player)? (Heck, I even have a player who brings his laptop every time, mostly for note-taking, in which he does contribute heavily to the game, though sometimes it is distracting because he does other things....)
I think WotC (or Hasbro, which is such a huge corporation, there are quite a few cons regarding toy-making, that exist despite many pros regarding the things they can market and create in the industry) is trying to find control here, but they aren't doing it wisely. They're making similar mistakes that they've blundered through in the past. Hasbro doesn't care, as some other posters on other forums have pointed out -- they're gonna' make money through one game system or toy or another from most of the markets they're targeting; they're not concerned about retaining the customer. That's what smaller companies do, I guess.
4) WoTC has not really provided very much concrete information on "what is next." Obviously, there getting a lot of inquiries from disconcerted gamers dealing with change. I'm sure if I were an interested, loyal subscriber, I might hunt down more information about the new digital initiative. But, as one message board poster put it (in response to a WoTC's comment), "I will never be looking forward [with baited breath] to a website update" (like I did a new issue of Dragon or Dungeon).
Sorry this is somewhat rambling. I guess I am just too old-school, and am just dealing with change. (And, yes, I know the best way to reverse or deal with such things is to contribute. But, alas, real life is real life, and its demands do so impose on the time we devote to what for many of us is just a "hobby" in our free time, after all.) I hope some of the ideas are coherent. Thanks for letting me get this off of my chest.
I wonder if any of the Mystaran easter eggs that were in line will find themselves in Pathfinder?
No. We can't do that.
Hopefully Mike will stop by soon and give us the scoop.
Yo.
Whatcha like to know (without me violating my NDA)?
It will really depend on what the new Pazio world is like. I asked on the Pazio board if they would provide a description, ala as of the Known World in X1, of Varisia (the new world's name).
Just to clarify: Varisia is the name of the country in which the first Pathfinder Adventure Path takes place. We haven't announced the name of our world yet.
But yes, we plan on releasing some information on our world. I don't know in what form that information will take (aside from the Player's Guide, which I do know just a little about).
We're going to try to make most of our products as generic as possible (but not TOO generic) so they can fit in with other campaign settings. Including Mystara.