http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20070419a
And with that, Greyhawk faded into obscurity...
/me looks up at the traffic on the LG forums
What obscurity?
/me looks up at the traffic on the LG forums
What obscurity?
The majority of fans (obviously not all) of Paizo Greyhawk material aren't interested in the LG. I can tell you are completely dedicated to LG Sam by the amount of trash emails I am getting from Greytalk and I don't have a problem with you loving it (would prefer you did it a bit more privately) so much. Having said that, I completely feel Mort's pain. Dragon and Dungeon magazines were so exciting to use everytime they came out. I couldn't wait to get them in my mail to see Erik's masterful way of sustaining our love for Greyhawk. LG is an alternative outlet, but it isn't for me and many other fans of Paizo's great quality of work. I will miss these magazines greatly and it will definitely effect my future WotC purchases.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/generalDiscussion/stunnedSpeechless
Erik has posted in it several times (as he'd probably tell you when he got the chance), and one of his comments concerned the future of Greyhawk. He said:
I can't speak for my cohorts, but my love affair with Greyhawk predates my professional gaming career by more than a decade, and will continue until they put me in a casket. James, Jason, and I just co-wrote "Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk" for WotC, which will be releasing in August.
I am on record at WotC as being extremely interested in a Greyhawk license or licensing opportunities related to that property. So we'll see what happens.
I thought there might be people viewing over here who'd be interested in seeing that.
The majority of fans (obviously not all) of Paizo Greyhawk material aren't interested in the LG. I can tell you are completely dedicated to LG Sam by the amount of trash emails I am getting from Greytalk and I don't have a problem with you loving it (would prefer you did it a bit more privately) so much. Having said that, I completely feel Mort's pain. Dragon and Dungeon magazines were so exciting to use everytime they came out. I couldn't wait to get them in my mail to see Erik's masterful way of sustaining our love for Greyhawk. LG is an alternative outlet, but it isn't for me and many other fans of Paizo's great quality of work. I will miss these magazines greatly and it will definitely effect my future WotC purchases.
I never said LG would replace the magazines.
I said that it meant Greyhawk was nowhere near fading into obscurity because the magazines were being cancelled.
I'll miss the magazines too, but there cancelling is not the end of Greyhawk by any means. In fact, one might desperately hope that WotC will solicit more of the little articles that appear in the LG section of the RPGA web area for their online product. That could mean even more Greyhawk content being available.
Indeed. Greyhawk thrives on adversity anyways. It will outlive anything else out there.
Agreed!
). This annoys the hell out of me. I'm tired of having my favorite setting pushed to the margins at the behest of corporate bigwigs. When it rears its ugly head 4.0 will gather dust on the book shelves if I have my way. I will raise my ban only after WotC regularly produces Greyhawk material or allows another publisher to do so.See you guys at Canonfire and the Paizo Boards.
The loss of the magazines is a bummer in general, but its not a specific crisis for Greyhawk.
Greyhawk, perhaps, may not survive this.
I fear that you are correct, and that this is the most viable option for WotC....it is sad to see that D&D is not what it once was....it will live on in our hearts though....
There's been a lot of activity on the Paizo boards lately, and I haven't even scratched the surface of what's been posted over there. But if I were going to point you to one thread in particular, it's the one entitled "Stunned Speechless":
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/generalDiscussion/stunnedSpeechless
Erik has posted in it several times (as he'd probably tell you when he got the chance), and one of his comments concerned the future of Greyhawk. He said:
I thought there might be people viewing over here who'd be interested in seeing that.
Unfortunantly I don't see that happening. WotC withdrew the Ravenloft licensing, cancelled Dungeon/Dragon magazine, and I know MWP is currently in negotiations with WotC to renew the Dragonlance license; which I now seriously doubt will be done after seeing these others not. Why would WotC give him a license that they never did before, yet had done with others? It just dosen't make sense to me they would do it.
To me this is all a precursor to 4th ed. coming out. IIRC WotC trimmed the fat and narrowed their focus of products prior to 3.0 coming out. I think the preview of Star Wars Sagais a preview of 4.0 Ed.The writing is on the wall. This is what's happening IMO. GenCon should be interesting this year.
Now if I'm right, it's possible that after 4th Ed. is established we may see WotC push those licensing out again. Of course this is all speculation on my behalf. Who knows?
To me this is all a precursor to 4th ed. coming out. IIRC WotC trimmed the fat and narrowed their focus of products prior to 3.0 coming out. I think the preview of Star Wars Saga is a preview of 4.0 Ed.The writing is on the wall. This is what's happening IMO. GenCon should be interesting this year.
I agree that Dragonlance's licence probably won't be renewed, which is very sad as they have some projects on-the-go and books almost done. But much of that is self-inflicted with continual delays and an inability to get the books on the shelves and keep them there. They've had a four or so books 'published' for the better part of a year and I've still only seen two in my FLGS. I want to see Races of Ansalon and get the reprinted Chronicles adventures as much as the next uber-geek, but if they putz around for months and only release half the products they could before WotC yanks the license its their own fault.
SWS is likely a 'preview' of 4E, much like Saga for Dragonlance lead to some of the rules and changes that became part of 3E. Things like variable DCs that have to be beat and the simple concept of ability# + random# = result used to judge sucess.
Of course, there was a two or three year gap between SAGA and 3E. And I don't see any of the big D&D names anywhere on SWS. I doubt very much they're going to hand the reigns of the future of D&D over to a couple of folks known for only Star Wars and d20 Modern whose biggest work was Dragon Magic.
More likely SWS will just reflect the common views of the problems and strengths of the 3E system (skills = good, dozens of ranks to count = bad. perception = good. spot/listen/search/track = bad) and streamline things a bit, a tightening of the system that will likely be examined when the time comes to actually make a 4E.
There's still a tonne of life left in 3.5, they haven't even done a Revised version yet (that I expect to see in a couple years). 2nd Edition was around for 11-13 years before 3E, which has only been seriously played for 7. And 3.5 has only been around for less than 4 years. No way in hell we hear a 4E announcement before the start of the next decade.
There's still a tonne of life left in 3.5, they haven't even done a Revised version yet (that I expect to see in a couple years).
That's what 3.5 was to 3.0 so it's already happened. You'll never see a 3.5 revised.
2nd Edition was around for 11-13 years before 3E, which has only been seriously played for 7. And 3.5 has only been around for less than 4 years. No way in hell we hear a 4E announcement before the start of the next decade.
I can see what your saying but I have to completely disagree. Second edition was TSR who were in finiacial straights and DL Saga was a failure. They couldn't afford to make the change at the time. It was WotC that changed it to 3rd edition but a mere 2-3 years after they bought TSR. So the argument that 2nd Edition lasted 11 or so years, therefore so will 3.5 dosen't work, since it was 2 different companies that instituted the change and the one (WotC) did it with the shorter time frame is doing it again.
In this world of shorter attention spans, I think your seeing the next edition starting to emerge. Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy about this, but It's what I'm seeing.
Unfortunantly I don't see that happening. WotC withdrew the Ravenloft licensing,
More like White Wolf returned it, along with the Gamma World license.
To me this is all a precursor to 4th ed. coming out. IIRC WotC trimmed the fat and narrowed their focus of products prior to 3.0 coming out. [b]I think the preview of Star Wars Sagais a preview of 4.0 Ed.[b]The writing is on the wall. This is what's happening IMO. GenCon should be interesting this year.
I have the greatest respect for Rodney Thompson (aka WotC_Rodney, Moridin). Having said that, do not use Star Wars Saga Edition (his recent body of work for WotC) as the new benchmark for 4e. Granted, some mechanics have been cleaned up (the consolidation of skills, for example), but I seriously doubt iterative attacks will be gone.
His job (along with Gary M. Sarli, Owen KC Stephens, and others) is to make Star Wars Saga Edition much closer to the six sci-fi films. Not to make 4e.
That's what 3.5 was to 3.0 so it's already happened. You'll never see a 3.5 revised.
3.0 was a "Hey, we decided to bring balance to paper RPGs where everything is equal and runs under the same mechanic."
3.5 was "Hey, we screwed up and the rules, they ain't balanced. Here, let's try again."
What I'm referring to is the swap between the old AD&D2e books and the Black-Bordered ones in the late '90s. A reprint and overhaul. 3E is about due for that.
A reprint, nicknamed revised to distinguish it from 3.5, and really more of a 3.51, where they stick all the errata, new rules and best-of-the-best in the Core books. Like actually adding Swift and Immediate actions so they don't need to add a sidebar with each and every book the publish. And added the rule clarifications from Sage Advice and the FAQ to the main books.
Tweak the layout, perhaps add some new options. Toss in some new art and covers, make it different enough that its' not just another printing but don't change anything.
I can see what your saying but I have to completely disagree. Second edition was TSR who were in finiacial straights and DL Saga was a failure. They couldn't afford to make the change at the time. It was WotC that changed it to 3rd edition but a mere 2-3 years after they bought TSR. So the argument that 2nd Edition lasted 11 or so years, therefore so will 3.5 dosen't work, since it was 2 different companies that instituted the change and the one (WotC) did it with the shorter time frame is doing it again.
In this world of shorter attention spans, I think your seeing the next edition starting to emerge. Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy about this, but It's what I'm seeing.
TSR was always in financial trouble. It was only really solid in the early-mid '80s. And it was when TSR was nearing it's end ('95) that they released the revised AD&D2e, 6 years after the original printing. TSR definitely wasn't thinking 3E at the time.
WotC did start thinking 3E as soon as thy bought the company, but that was a long three-year process. Even if they were thinking about it right now we wouldn't see anything until '09-10. I can see them doing it around 2010 simply because it'll be the 10-year anniversary of 3E and that's time for a change. Big round numbers and all.
3.5 also cratered the market. People were NOT happy about the shift and they made it known with their $$. WotC lost alot of market shares and the resulting drop in the market killed alot of smaller companies. Too many people kept the books they had or left to another game company.
So if they were planning for a late '08 release they'd had to have started thinking and playtesting in '06, and that was only three years after the release of 3.5 when the fans were still steaming. Heck, even now people are ****** and divisive about 3.0/3.5
There is frankly too many people still playing 2nd Edition and unconvinced to swap to 3E and too many people still just getting settled into 3E to even think about a 4E and make it profitable. People have small attention spans and that drives people to be unwilling to just give up on the purchases of 4-5 years and move on.
Look at HD-DVD/Blu-ray. People leapt at DVDs with open arms. It sole huge numbers even when it was expensive and discs were hard to find. People had had enough of VHS and 'got' CDs. The new two are the same only bigger, yet they aren't selling nearly as many numbers as DVDs did in their early years. Why? because people are just finishing re-buying all their VHS as DVDs and don't want to start again.
MWP Announcement
Wear it in health, brother.
Oggie
Wow, did you check out the cost of the Serenity products linked to Weis's sight: $30 for a PDF of the Serenity RPG and $10 for a PDF gamesmaster screen. Ripoff!
Just $5 off of the regular print products.
A reprint, nicknamed revised to distinguish it from 3.5, and really more of a 3.51, where they stick all the errata, new rules and best-of-the-best in the Core books. Like actually adding Swift and Immediate actions so they don't need to add a sidebar with each and every book the publish. And added the rule clarifications from Sage Advice and the FAQ to the main books.
Tweak the layout, perhaps add some new options. Toss in some new art and covers, make it different enough that its' not just another printing but don't change anything.
I agree completely. At this point, I'd actually -like- to see a revised PH, DMG, and MM that brings them up to current standards in the game. Doing that would extend the current edition at least another 5 years. (Plus, release a "rules compendium" just before you release whole new edition? Not likely.)
My money's on Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, personally. :D
I surely miss the mags already, but OTOH, now it is up to Wizards to take care of the Greyhawk fans.
If WotC doesn't make a considerable effort to keep the fans that remained loyal to them through Dragon and Dungeon, they're going to loose a lot of customers over this, I think.
I mean, if a company simply doesn't want my money, I am not going to beg them to produce something I can buy. ;)
First, see how that new Greyhawk book is. If it's bad, that will only mean more negative publictiy for WotC.
http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/10496.html
I just don't see the benefit of dropping printed magazines. Should I assume this is catering to the 14-18 year olds who play consoles all the time and don't take the time to actually read table top books? I have played this game since I was 11 years old when Greyhawk was the only official campaign world. Those were the days! I know many agree otherwise there wouldn't be so many Dungeon Crawl games by Goodman Games. Look at all the hard work Erik put into making sure us hawkers got quality printed material. People still and always will love Greyhawk and what this game is based on. This digital replacement is all about money (greed) plain and simple. Not about taking care of the hard core table top gamers. Ok I have finally vented my anger with WotC. Nuff about that.....
Why are the two channels mutually exclusive--why couldn't you do both?
That's a good question. We really just feel at this point that the Web is a better delivery system than a printed magazine.
Amazing. She acknowledged that it was a good question, and then completely avoided giving a real answer. Really answering the question would have involved telling us why they think that the web is a better delivery system and that using it means ending the magazines. Do they think that we're stupid? That we'd really be pacified by such an evasive answer?
Do they think that we're stupid? That we'd really be pacified by such an evasive answer?
Well, not you nor me, but there are strong evidence of stupidity among Earth's civilized population.
I present to you Exhibit A: Pay-2-Play MMORPGs
And Exhibit B & C : iPod and iTunes that killed Tower Records.
:evillaugh
I agree completely. At this point, I'd actually -like- to see a revised PH, DMG, and MM that brings them up to current standards in the game. Doing that would extend the current edition at least another 5 years. (Plus, release a "rules compendium" just before you release whole new edition? Not likely.)
My money's on Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, personally. :D
Yeah, so they'll probably revise in '09 and let the new books sell for 2-3 years then have a new edition.
Regarding Dragon I think FFN had some good, if uncomfortable, points:
http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/strips/2007-05-02.jpg
Actually, I am not worried. With the Expedition module coming up, WotC does a big step into the right direction.
I surely miss the mags already, but OTOH, now it is up to Wizards to take care of the Greyhawk fans.
If WotC doesn't make a considerable effort to keep the fans that remained loyal to them through Dragon and Dungeon, they're going to loose a lot of customers over this, I think.
I mean, if a company simply doesn't want my money, I am not going to beg them to produce something I can buy. ;)
First, see how that new Greyhawk book is. If it's bad, that will only mean more negative publictiy for WotC.
Actually, its up to Greyhawk fans to take care of Greyhawk fans. Its been that way ever since EGG left TSR back in the day. Campaign settings come and go, Greyhawk always endures.
Getting rid of Dragon and Dungeon is just asinine and stupid. These two magazines are not newspapers or news magazines. Traditional print-media IS going in the tank as people turn to the internet for news and information. However, trade magazines like Dragon and Dungeon are staples of the product(s) WoTC is trying to sell. Dungeons and Dragons WILL ALWAYS BE a PAPER PRODUCT, and as such should have resources in the same medium. As we all know there are wonderful software tools available for DM's and players alike, but those cannot compare to a DM's stat screen, trusty notebook, and issues of Dragon and Dungeon next to them - waiting for reference. I for one will definetley not be buying anything in electronic format. I am not going to Kinko's, or printing the crap out at home/work.
BTW can someone tell me what 'schisim' is between 3E and 3.5 that other posts refer to? I thought 3.5E was merely a revised and clarified 3E update (i.e. no core mechanics changes, etc.), although I still buy D&D books (have the complete 3.5E core rulebooks, MM, etc., etc), adventures, and magazines, I'm currently not in a group and haven't played in a few years.
Thanks...
WoG is still a very successful RPGA campaign, so promoting it with additional RPG material only makes sense to me.
As to that digital stuff, I think there's a major error WotC commits here:
Younger people don't have credit cards, or even accounts one can regularily draw money from.
*Mommy, can I get some cash to buy that mag?* is something different to *Mommy, can I get your Paypal account number to look into that PDF?*... WotC will run the danger to miss the younger audience with the loss of the print mags...
BTW can someone tell me what 'schisim' is between 3E and 3.5 that other posts refer to?
I am not sure what you're referring to, but I guess it might be about WotC's original tendency to actually support WoG with products, while keeping it the default setting (Like RttToEE, The LGJs, or Fright at Tristor) that has grown smaller and smaller in 3.5.