We'll be playing in Tyr, since that's the place I have the most info on from my OoP 2nd stuff I had tucked away in my closet.
Question is, with no Sorcerer-King to grant them spells, is there perhaps a core Tyrian Templar class? Or perhaps some "Templar Alternate Abilities" or some such? Or, do our poor Tyrian Templars simply lack any ability to cast any spells?
What if there was a creative write-up on how the Tyrian Templars began to integrate their abilities with that of a Preserver(or Defiler in secret) to create some form of Templar hybrid, something like a Duskblade?
What do the vets say? Big no on this idea? Perhaps a maybe?
Any input is appreciated.
-Von
Oh, and I rule there can't be any new Templars for a Sorcerer-King who no longer exists.
Question is, with no Sorcerer-King to grant them spells, is there perhaps a core Tyrian Templar class? Or perhaps some "Templar Alternate Abilities" or some such? Or, do our poor Tyrian Templars simply lack any ability to cast any spells?
What if there was a creative write-up on how the Tyrian Templars began to integrate their abilities with that of a Preserver(or Defiler in secret) to create some form of Templar hybrid, something like a Duskblade?
What do the vets say? Big no on this idea? Perhaps a maybe?
Any input is appreciated.
-Von
The handling of Templars for post-SK cities has been this:
They don't get spells. They do get Secular Authority, which scales with Diplomacy ranks, not Templar levels. So, those interested in pursuing life as a corrupt administrator can take a single level of the Templar class, then focus on whatever other class gives them the abilities they're after. So long as you keep putting points in Diplomacy, you can keep getting better with the "law enforcement" aspects of the templar class.
A "pure" Templar in a post SK city is at a tremendous disadvantage, and is little better than a Commoner, power-level wise.
There are no plans for a core "tyrian" templar Without an SK, the role of a Templar kind of disappears ... There are PrCs for Templars in post-SK cities.
If so, they've obviously lost their spell-casting ability.
And if I understand correctly, there are no more new Templars in a city-state without a Sorcerer-King. So, that poses a new question: Who are the policing force of Tyr now?
Are we talking run-of-the-mill city guardsmen like in other D&D settings, or are we talking ex-gladiators/templars/soldiers doing the new policing?
Are they simply called "Tyrian Guardsmen" or is it something more exotic?
Anyone know for sure?
Thanks in advance,
-Von
1. Perhaps another Sorceror King is Proving his spells on the sly.
2. For some reason he can channel Kalaks power. Don't know why or how but he is the only one that can do it.
I can write this up with a bit more detail and as an actual alternative class feature if you're interested in going this route.
As an alternative ability you could have it the templars without a SK can still use and create magical items as if they were still able to cast templar spells and throw in a few bonus feats that can be spent on craft magic item feats. I'd also up their skill points per level.
I can write this up with a bit more detail and as an actual alternative class feature if you're interested in going this route.
Well, by the rules, they'd still need to be able to cast the spells to make the magic items/fruit, etc. so, while I actually kinda like the idea, it goes against the item creation rules. I'm kind of a fluff-monger, so my brain would say "But how?" and then I'd not allow it. However, I'm certainly not opposed to a Tyrian Templar PrC that somehow taps into the energy that Kalak or maybe even Tithian left in their wake. Not sure. I'm still getting back into the DS setting, having not picked up or read anything on it in over 12 or so years.
I would -love- to co-create something with someone here for a new Tyrian Templar class(that being those who were Templars in the wake of Kalak's destruction) or a PrC Tyrian Guard. Maybe they hold the same powers as Templars, but to make up for their lack of spell-casting, they'll have better combat abilities, or more/better investigative skills, etc.
What do you think, Sysane, or others for that matter? Ideas, input?
-Von
I like creating things for the settings which I DM. Makes them feel more my own.
Let me know,
-Von
Varient Templar
Lose: Spellcasting
Gain Fighter BAB, Fighter bonus feats.
Keep it simple and fits with the flavour of them being trained as a fighter.
So what you're getting at is that they should just be fighters? Thats sort of bland IMO.
Yeah but it fits and isn't exactly broken. Better than a Templar with no spells. With their skill points it would make them a decent enough police type force as well.
It then goes on to detail the Council of Advisers that currently rule in his stead, and details further the OverCouncil who handle the more important matters. But, after that, it speaks on the templars, so here goes..
It says: "The templars continue in their administrative roles despite the loss of their spellcasting abilities. They no longer define the legal system as they once did as Kalak's enforcers, but some templars have found imaginative ways to subvert the laws passed down by the Council to further their own ends. They excel as bureaucrats and have refined collusion and graft into high art forms. Templars are as much a commodity as the iron and grain they regulate. They practice the mechanics of oversight, and those who wish to see the wheels of progress turn must regularly grease the palms of those who turn the wheels. For example, traders wanting city contracts pay kickbacks to the city's negotiating agents. Both merchants in a dispute may bribe a templar arbitrator for a favorable judgment. A politician or petitioner may hire a templar to arrest or detain an opponent on the day of an important vote, while a black marketeer or thief might offer a percentage of his cut to a templar to look the other way. An ambitious templar may even assassinate another of his ilk to gain the favor of a third. There is no end to the scheming that a templar is capable of.
What makes these corrupt templars even more dangerous is that, except in cases of extreme importance to Tyr, the templars sit in judgment of crimes within the city. They investigate, accuse, pass judgment, imprison or pardon Tyrian citizens and visitors just as they did under Kalak. A well-placed templar can be a valuable ally or a terrible foe. Anyone conducting business of pursuing politics in Tyr would be wise to cultivate a good relations with this powerful faction.
The organization of the templars follows hierarchical lines of authority. (The OverCouncil oversees the bureaucracy and punishes or rewards its work.) The bureaucracy is currently headed by Timor, Senior Templar and Minister of Tyr. Beneath him are the ministers, each responsible for one aspect of Tyr's interest. Each department maintains its own security forces and operates independently of others, save that all department heads report directly to Timor, who, himself, reports to the Council. The ministers supervise various minor officials and functionaries, creating an immense tangle of red tape where corruption, bribery, and backstabbing are commonplace. The departments of Tyr's government are listed below. The names of the Senior Templar in charge of each department is noted in parentheses.
Administration --(Astini) supervises templar scribes who maintain records and communication between other departments.
The Arena --(Banther) administers stadium functions.
Fields --(Arbistor) responsible for agricultural and farming concerns.
Finance --(Gennet) tax collecting and treasury.
Gardens --(Linder) maintains and patrols the king's gardens.
Mines --(Borger) supervises the operations of Tyr's iron mines.
Public Works --(Caldon) in charge of construction of public and private structures within the city.
Security --(Dark) in charge of intelligence operations.
State --(Hirik) in charge of ambassadorial relations with other city-states and external powers.
Trade --(Finneal) regulates business within the city.
Water --(Girias) oversees Tyr's wells and supplies.
Each templar duties vary by bureau and standing. A templar in the lowest echelon of the Bureau of Fields, for example, may be in charge of handing out the daily bread ration or driving a dung wagon around town to retrieve the contents of chamberpots from the previous night(to be used as fertilizer in the fields). An intermediate templar in the same bureau may be charged with the collection of grain tithes or the approval of land leases, while a high-ranking templar may oversee Tyr's grain stores and arrange purchases of additional supplies of grain for the city either locally of through import from outside Tyr as needed. Differences in rank in the security bureau, by comparison, might mean night patrols for a low-ranking templar, or being an arbitrator of minor disputes for a medium-level official, and justiciar (judge) of the courts for a highly placed templar."
Whew... finally done typing that. So, anyway, from this we see that it appears that templars do not indeed get their spells (which was already confirmed by previous posts), but it -does- appear that templars can still be recruited fresh and new into the ranks.
Next post is for The City Guard.
-Von
Faux Caster
Having lost your monarch or their divine favor, you have retained enough knowledge and insight to still use magical items.
Level: 1st
Replaces: If you select this alternative class feature, you may not regain the ability to cast divine spells granted from a sorcerer-monarch.
Benefit: While you are no longer able to cast spells, you are still treated as being a templar with the ability to cast spells for the purpose of utilizing magic items. Additionally, you gain a competence bonus equal to half your class level on Use Magic Device checks.
Special: You must have lost the ability to cast spells from the templar spell list.
One would assume knowing how to cast a scroll would be part of the templars training not reliant on he kings patronage or whatever.
If the templar is no longer able to cast spells he no longer has a spell list if I'm not mistaken (which I could be).
This ability would allow a templar that could no longer cast spells to use scroll and similar items that require a character to cast spells without a Use Magic Device check.
Sure, its not exactly game breaking, but at least its something for a spelless templar to fall back on.
I know Clerics on other worlds who have lost spellcasting ability due to a gods death can still use scrolls and other magical items. Don't see how it would be different for a templar. I wouldn't describe the ability as a varient class feature but a class feature they never lost. They've had the training (ranks in spellcraft), the power is in the magic item and they still have a spell list and are still a Templar.
As a guide line for the templar we should look to the SRD under the mechanics for Ex-Clerics:
Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).
A death of a god, or in our case a SK, could (and IMO should) fall under this. Having a spell list is a class feature and therefore would be lost to a templar without a SK.
Different world same situation (loss of patron).
Clerics of dead gods in the Forgotten Realms could still activate magic items in 2nd editiuon after the time of troubles and Clerics of Lolth could when Lolth was silent. This was in both novels and game rules. The Clerics didn't lose their faith ot violate it.
Different world same situation (loss of patron).
More like different edition not the same mechanics. 2e logic does not necessarily hold true in 3.5.
More like different edition not the same mechanics. 2e logic does not necessarily hold true in 3.5.
The rules were essentially the same. in the 3.0 adventure City of the Spider Queen Cleric of Lolth could still use magical items even though Lolth wasn't granting spells. Clerics of dead gods can still activate magic items and it is the last source of magic available to the Church.
There's a fire giant cleric from another world in City by the Silt Sea that Dregoth brought through the planar gate who is still able to get up to 2nd level spells from his god, even though he's cut off from him.
Also, according to some source I can't find (but have heard of) priests get up to 2nd level spells through thier inner faith alone and not a deity or any other source, so they could still get up to 2nd level spells.
There's a fire giant cleric from another world in City by the Silt Sea that Dregoth brought through the planar gate who is still able to get up to 2nd level spells from his god, even though he's cut off from him.
That was an old leftover rule form 1st ed I think. Demigods could grant up to 4th level spells, lesser gods 5th level, intermediate gods 6th level, and Greater gods could grant level 7 spells IIRC.
The rules were essentially the same. in the 3.0 adventure City of the Spider Queen Cleric of Lolth could still use magical items even though Lolth wasn't granting spells. Clerics of dead gods can still activate magic items and it is the last source of magic available to the Church.
Again, you’re talking about a different edition of the game.
Furthermore, we're also comparing apples to oranges. ABs are far from being actual deities. Sure, we can turn to gods to garner some logic for beings that have living vortices, but they are not the same animal in any way shape of form.
If someone can find an official 3.5 ruling on what happens to a divine caster’s ability to use magic items (specifically a cleric) when their deity dies and its contrary to my belief, great. I’ll reverse my decision and come up with a different replacement ability. For now, I still stand that templars are unable to use items as they did when they had the ability to cast divine spells.
Well, since there are no gods on Athas it seems Elementals or Elemental Planes would technically grant spells. I highly doubt anything on an Elemental plane would grant spells to a follower of of super high level defiler/dragon. Although maybe the para-elemental planes would considering that they may benefit from defiling and the destruction of the natural order of things?
Well, technically, can't we say Athas has gods at least indirectly. The elemental lords on the elemental planes are gods after all.
Again, you’re talking about a different edition of the game.
Furthermore, we're also comparing apples to oranges. ABs are far from being actual deities. Sure, we can turn to gods to garner some logic for beings that have living vortices, but they are not the same animal in any way shape of form.
If someone can find an official 3.5 ruling on what happens to a divine caster’s ability to use magic items (specifically a cleric) when their deity dies and its contrary to my belief, great. I’ll reverse my decision and come up with a different replacement ability. For now, I still stand that templars are unable to use items as they did when they had the ability to cast divine spells.
Not to come down on either side of this argument, but wouldn't their ability to use items come from spell craft of from a use magical device skill check? Isn't it the case that if it's on your spell list, you can use a wand with the spell, regardless of whether or not you can replenish your spells?
Not to come down on either side of this argument, but wouldn't their ability to use items come from spell craft of from a use magical device skill check? Isn't it the case that if it's on your spell list, you can use a wand with the spell, regardless of whether or not you can replenish your spells?
My stance is that if you are no longer able cast spells you don't have access to a spell list. Per the ex-cleric rules from the SRD, an ex-cleric loses all class features. Now, the big question is "is having a spell list a class feature?". I would imagine that it is.
You can always rely on UMD, but thats not the same as being able to automaticlly use an item without a chance of something bad happening or needing maxed out ranks in that skill.
We're really splitting hairs and either/both of us could be right or wrong.
Well, technically, can't we say Athas has gods at least indirectly. The elemental lords on the elemental planes are gods after all.
I'm not arguing "gods" or beings that can bestow powers. I'm saying why would any elemental being want to take an uber-defilers former lackey under their wing? I can see maybe an ex-Templar here or there who saw the "error" in their former ways, but I don't think we are going to see hordes of them running around casting spells granted by entities whose power has been greatly diminished by the Sorcerer Kings themselves.
We're really splitting hairs and either/both of us could be right or wrong.
Agreed.
If anyone knows of an offical source that defines what happens to a cleric's item using capability please feel free to chime in.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12250404#post12250404
As I remember from the Prism Pentad and Beyond the Prism Pentad, there are five classes of citizens in the new Tyr:
Presevers
Nobles
Templars
Craftsmen
Freemen (ex-slaves and unskilled poor people)
Each class gets the same number of representatives in the Senate and the Overcouncil, which makes templars one of the elite groups within Tyr's very disproportionate democracy.
Presevers
Nobles
Templars
Craftsmen
Freemen (ex-slaves and unskilled poor people)
Each class gets the same number of representatives in the Senate and the Overcouncil, which makes templars one of the elite groups within Tyr's very disproportionate democracy.
The first three are all pretty disporoprtionate. There's very few Preservers, in the grand scheme. Likewise with Nobles.
Really, it's the Craftsmen and Freemen who got screwed by the arrangement, less so than the Templars getting a leg up on everyone else ...
It all depends on your context. If you're a former 2E Dark Sun guy who wants to have 3.5 play exactly the same, then the Athas.org rules should work fine. If you're into 3E, but don't want to spend a lot of time or effort figuring it out, Paizo's rules work fine.
If you want something that fits the novels better, and also doesn't leave unexplainable gaps, then a lot more work is needed...
First off, what are templars used for in the campaign? Namely, they're the spellcasting enforcers of the sorcerer-kings. They act as bureaucrats, administrators, and police. So this, to me, brings in some basic facts:
- Templars should not be designed with PC's in mind. They're meant to be the enemy in a heroic campaign, not an option. An ex-templar is possible, but I'll get to that below.
- Templars should have spontaneous spell-casting, as the Athas.org write-up gives them. Preparing spells ahead of time, in this case, is a redundant mechanic. Since templars are not likely to survive past one battle, it's easier on the DM to just have x number of spell slots than specific spells for every templar encountered.
- Templar spell lists are NOT anything like a standard D&D cleric. Their magic is used for peacekeeping (or what passes for it in Athas), and based on the Prism Pentad, their spells tend to be very violent and damage-oriented, much more arcane in nature. That and Orwellian spells used to track enemies and keep an unruly populace in check.
So with that in mind, I'd propose myself that templars be a prestige class instead. The idea here is that the prestige class is added to an existing class to reflect the present rank and spellcasting power of the templar in his city-state. If his SK is slain, or he defects, he loses all his prestige class levels, but still has his base class, which is more or less what he is.
The prestige class does NOT increase hit points, or grant skill points per level. It does give some magic-based skills as class skills, which the templar can use his base class points on. The reason for this is that if/when the templar loses his status, you don't have a big gaping hole to try and patch in game, trying to explain how a level 18 templar, for example, all of a sudden has dropped to a zero-level character. This also explains why a real spellcaster can always drop templars in one-to-one fights... templars are cheating, getting power with no return investment in training and talent. However, templars also outnumber real spellcasters ten to one...
So what base classes to use? Most templars are commoners, thugs from the street who have been recruited into the ranks because it gives them a chance to lord it over nobles and merchants. Many are also experts, to reflect their burearcratic nature. Some few, such as Tithian was, are aristocrats who joined the ranks voluntarily, seeing it as a quick and easy path to power, which it is. The SK's grant spellcasting power that would normally take years of training and practice to master (the normal PC clases), and all they ask is return is obedience. A few templars may be psions or psychic warriors, paths to power that they perhaps abandoned prior to signing on with the King's ranks.
I've off and on wanted to start back up my Dark Sun game again, but I've been pretty busy with work, and the fact that neither Paizo's or Athas.org's systems are satisfactory to me is a bit of a deterrent. But if I did start one up again, retooling templars is definitely on the list of things to do.