I remember from Beyond the Prism Pentad that the surviving SMs were around 23rd/24th level and in Dragon King they ranged from 21st-23rd level (which corresponded with descriptions in the Prism Pentad). Are this still the official line?
It always struck me as strange because, after 3,500 years of epic activity and successful conquests, there is no way they wouldn't all have enough experience and material componenets to become 30th-level dragons themselves. So why aren't they?
Is there an official line on what level the Sorcerer Monarchs are/were before they go slaughtered?
I remember from Beyond the Prism Pentad that the surviving SMs were around 23rd/24th level and in Dragon King they ranged from 21st-23rd level (which corresponded with descriptions in the Prism Pentad). Are this still the official line?
It always struck me as strange because, after 3,500 years of epic activity and successful conquests, there is no way they wouldn't all have enough experience and material componenets to become 30th-level dragons themselves. So why aren't they?
They were level 21-24. Technically the Dragon was one as well at level 30 while Dregoth is level 29. The reason they didn't go any higher was because they didn't want to. Hit level 25 and Dragons go insane and thats a virtual death sentence as the other ones and/or the Dragon will gak you.
That was in 2nd ed terms. Athas.org has released PrCs which would more or less double their level putting them into the level 50-60 maybe even higher range. In my personal campaign they're basically epic monsters in the CR 23ish through to about CR 35-38 for The Dragon himself although their hit dice is higher as Dragons are all NPCs IMC.
Myself, I've got The Dragon statted out at CR 73 or something like that, with the other S-K's running a little over 40 character levels plus the athas.org Champion of Rajaat template.
They were level 21-24. Technically the Dragon was one as well at level 30 while Dregoth is level 29. The reason they didn't go any higher was because they didn't want to. Hit level 25 and Dragons go insane and thats a virtual death sentence as the other ones and/or the Dragon will gak you.
Exactly. Look at what happened to Dregoth and Kalid-Ma. Knowing that the only thing that your peers would ever work together on would be your complete and utter annihilation should you become too powerful would be a great deterrent. I'm sure the aftermath of Borys's accelerated transformation (a century of rampaging and defilement) is more than enough to keep the rest of the SMs at bay.
One thing that always did bother me, on that note, is what happened to Dregoth's bestial rages? He is a stage nine dragon, and he's supposed to have had uncontrollable animalistic periods. Did he find some way to suppress them? Did he go slowly enough that he really didn't have to worry about it? I have always just kind of said that the rages can be controlled (though not 100% of the time) if the process is done in ten steps. Borys, Kalid-Ma, etc. could not control their rage because the process was heavily accelerated. Ideas?
If one was to argue that they become Draogons after the rebellion against Rajaat it doesn't make much sense and also leaves a very small timeframe (80 odd years) for Dregoth to go from level 21 to 29 and go through his rage period and rule Giustanel. If he was raging at level 25-28 odds are he would have destroyed Giustanel.
My arguement would be they became Dragons when the sun changed colour when Rajaat made tem his champions. Dregoth figured out the process faster than the others and went through his rage period during the Cleansing Wars. The other champions didn't really understand what was happening to him and deliberatly stunted their own draconic growth. Cleansing War ends when they rebel. Create Dragon Dragon goes nuts.
At this point they've probably figured out they don't really want to be Dragons that much except when they can cheat at it and gan enough power to survive a'la Kalak and Kalid-Ma.
Well the original source material never stated when the Sorceror Kings became Dragons. With City by the Silt Sea and Rise and Fall of a Dragon King it would seem when Rajaat created his champions he also turned them into Dragons. Lateron they used the Dark Lens to accelerate Borys into a 30th level Dragons and connected elemental vortices to themselves.
Agreed. I always believed that they became 1st-stage dragons when they became Champions. Also, as I have stated in other posts on this board, I think that the original rules in many cases did not have Dregoth in mind since he was a later creation. The revised setting dragon rules were changed so that there was only a small chance of animalistic rage per month in the 5th through 9th stages of dragon metamorphosis, and I feel that Dregoth just got "lucky" in that regard. Surely Dregoth's inclusion in the setting had something to do with this change. (As a side note, I've always found the elemental vortex thing to be REALLY contrived.)
At this point they've probably figured out they don't really want to be Dragons that much except when they can cheat at it and gan enough power to survive a'la Kalak and Kalid-Ma.
Here I would disagree slightly for two reasons. First, they don't ever really cheat and succeed, as both Kalid-Ma and Kalak were slain either during or immediately after their metamorphosis. Second, several of the sorcerer-kings are still advancing through the stages of metamorphosis, just at a very slow rate. Nibenay, for example, is still going, though he is trying to use Siemhouk to assuage his bestial rages.
I definitely buy your argument that the SKs simply don't understand the process fully, though. Perhaps they are afraid of both their animalistic rage and the threat of their peers surely destroying them as they did Kalid-Ma and Dregoth. In my view, though, they definitely want to be dragons, and are willing to go to great lengths to do so. Of course, they are really in no hurry, as they cannot die from natural causes, so they can play at being god-kings until they find a way to one-up their peers. Kalak thought he had done so, but in an extreme bit of arrogance, thought that he could succeed where Kalid-Ma had failed (they were essentially attempting the exact same thing).
Regardless, I know that recent material being developed at athas.org make it so that the official nature of the Champions is that they were not created as Dragons (though Hamanu may be different). Further, this is why the Champion template does not make them Dragons.
Also, while RaFoaDK is very cool, some elements just don't match preexisting materials and so it is deemed partially canon. I believe Brax would say that we take the good parts and leave the rest. Offical releases from athas.org have not reached the dates in that book, so who knows what it will look like when we reach that hurdle.
If the other SMs didn't want Kalak to turn into a full dragon, why didn't they stop in the decades during which he was building the ziggurat. Surely they figured out what was going on? If they had forgotten about Kalidnay, they could have at least noticed the helpful pictures of various stages of the dragon transformation helpfully drawn on the walls of the ziggurat (as described in the Verdant Passage).
And I thought Kalid-Ma got sucked into Ravenloft rather than being killed by the other SMs?
(As a side note, I've always found the elemental vortex thing to be REALLY contrived.)
I totally agree. I prefer to ignore canon and say that Rajaat gave them the power to grant spells as part of their Champion abilities. Being able to grant spells to hundreds of followers on a daily would, as I see it, require an altered and enhanced brain beyond what the human mind is capable of. I just can't imagine it as simply being a result of some cosmic magic energy animal being attracted to a big spell and sticking its mystical tentacles in the champions' minds, and then staying there for all eternity. The SMs' god-like ability to grant spells should be something that involve the transformation of their whole being, not just a random happy accident.
On a related point, I think I prefer the idea that the Rajaat's were all turned into first-stage dragons when he made them into champions. To my mind, they needed the seeds of the draconic nature in order to be able to cast the 10th level psionic enchantments.
Here's my own version of the history of the champions' transformation into dragons which, as far as I know, isn't actually inconsistent with canon, just fills in the gaps:
Dregoth, always the most idiosyncratic of the champions, independently discovered that Rajaat had planted within them only the seeds of another kind of being, and took it upon himself to fully become this other kind of creature. This leater led to him developing his theory of the draconic form as being the next step in the evolution of Athas' one pure race (from halfling, to human, to draconian). He used Giustenal as a base to fund and defend the massive palaces required for this transformation and managed to ensure that he simply left the city during his animalistic rages.
The distraction of the dragon transformation and the administration of Giustenal meant that Dregoth's quest against the giants was postponed for a long periods of time. Because of this, and Dregoth's refusal to share his secrets, the other champions resented Dregoth and complained to Rajaat. Rajaat, intruiged by Dregoth's doings, turned them away.
When the champions imprisoned Rajaat, Dregoth was instrumental in devising the spells needed to keep the First Sorcerer imprisoned and, as a full dragon, nominated himself as the only one powerful enough to be the prison-keeper. Dregoth's wayward behaviour during the Cleansing Wars made the others deeply reluctant to allow him such power. They knew something of his belief in dragons as a race higher than humans and of his deep faith in the Cleansing Wars, with or without Rajaat, and feared he would use power to upset the balance of power between the champions and impose his own vision on Athas. They were also eager to acquire the secrets of the dragon transformation for themselves, as well as the wealth of Giustenal. Therefore they joined forces to destroy Dregoth, and then used his research to transform Borys into the Dragon and begin their own transformations.
Level 30 Dragons don't go insane. Borys however skipped at least 5 stages or went through them all at once and didn't do it the proper way. Ergo one angry dragon for 100 years.
Which creates another question: what made Kalid-Ma and Kalak think they would escape Borys' madness? Perhaps the ziggurat transformation prevents the madness in a way that the champions' use of the Dark Lens as a means of dragon transformation does not?
Which creates another question: what made Kalid-Ma and Kalak think they would escape Borys' madness? Perhaps the ziggurat transformation prevents the madness in a way that the champions' use of the Dark Lens as a means of dragon transformation does not?
Either they hoped to bypass it or hoped they would gain enough power to make themselves secure vs the Dragon.
Which creates another question: what made Kalid-Ma and Kalak think they would escape Borys' madness? Perhaps the ziggurat transformation prevents the madness in a way that the champions' use of the Dark Lens as a means of dragon transformation does not?
I always attributed that to some sort of egomania, which I'm certain that any evil, thousands-of-years-old semi-godlike being would possess to a degree. Kalid-Ma and Kalak probably just thought that they would succeed because they were smarter or somehow better, or that the others had done something incorrectly and that they would succeed where those others had failed. I'm not so convinced that the ziggurat transformation process would prevent the madness, as Kalid-Ma went on a destructive rampage after his transformation.
If the other SMs didn't want Kalak to turn into a full dragon, why didn't they stop in the decades during which he was building the ziggurat. Surely they figured out what was going on? If they had forgotten about Kalidnay, they could have at least noticed the helpful pictures of various stages of the dragon transformation helpfully drawn on the walls of the ziggurat (as described in the Verdant Passage).
I attribute this to two things: one, the official line was that he was building his ziggurat to "protect against the Dragon," so it wasn't expressly clear what Kalak was doing. Two (and perhaps most importantly), we have to remember that a lot of this stuff was made up as the setting went along. The nature of the disaster at Kalidnay was not thought of in its entirety (beyond from the ruined city and cracked ziggurat) when Kalak's gamble was written. To the other SKs, it was literally something that had never been attempted before. That's the problem with revisionist history in a campaign setting: it makes it harder and harder to make the pieces all fit together sometimes.
And I thought Kalid-Ma got sucked into Ravenloft rather than being killed by the other SMs?
Another lovely inconsistency that I believe was handled very well by Nytcrawlr, so be sure to look for his take. In pure Dark Sun canon, Kalid-Ma jumped several levels of dragon metamorphosis in one step, much as Kalak attempted to do, and became a mindless beast that destroyed his city and started carving a swath of destruction in the southern Tablelands. He was slain by Borys, Kalak, and Hamanu. His intellect was trapped within the orbs that he used to complete the metamorphosis. Of course, the Ravenloft people (who were part of the same product group as Dark Sun), claimed that Kalid-Ma had been transported to Ravenloft. They first claimed Kalid-Ma was a female and that Thakok-An (the high templar who actually ruled the domain in Ravenloft) was a male; their genders were reversed in the 1997 revision of Ravenloft. I personally feel that the Ravenloft angle is completely silly, so I ignore it, but technically Kalid-Ma doesn't even really exist in Ravenloft in my view. Only Thakok-An is there, and the tomb of Kalid-Ma is empty (though she believes that it is not).
One of the great things about DK was that those levels and abilities were difficult to reach, but realistically attainable (not counting the dragon and avangion). Characters at that level should be extraordinarily rare and players in the Dark Sun balance of power.
Just an opinion here, but having dragons in the CR40+ range puts them on a munchkin level of power way beyond the thematic scope of the setting. Who could ever challenge such creations? Love it or hate it, the PP (and DK for that matter) demonstrated that the SKs were not all-powerful and could be taken down by a strong group of heroes...
With the athas.org rules, a 1st-level dragon requires 35 combined levels of magic user and psionicist... seems pretty high, and certainly out of reach for any standard campaign. For an NPC, it works well tho - the 35 levels do not (IMO) equal CR35, so the challenge of a low-level SK would be fair to a low-level epic group (low-mid 20s).
In my own campaign, the bbeg is a reanimated Kalak, which will be about a CR25-ish encounter... haven't statted him yet.
If you run a 3.5e game relatively normally, giving players equipment and such proportionate to their level, then a low-Epic level group (early 20's) can take on and potentially defeat an enemy many, many levels/CRs higher than they are. Although the system is supposed to be balanced, once you achieve higher levels that balance pretty much goes right out the window. So, although a CR 35+ SK might seem indestructible, with some planning (and especially some of the feats, spells, powers and equipment found in the various Complete-series books) a group of level 20ish PCs could definitely take them out.
To me, that constitutes a "powerful group of PCs," and from a "real time" perspective is on par with 2e rules. In approximately 2 years of playing a 2e DS game every week or every-other week, and even though I was giving my players XP in the neighborhood of 5x what the 2e rules stated (I never divided monster XP by the number of players, I gave them all the full amount), the highest single-class character was level 15 and the highest multi-classed was 12/11 (or thereabouts). IIRC, those are about the same levels that the PP characters are statted out as being in 2e. Now, if you compare that to a 3.5e game, 2 years of consistent gameplay can easily put characters into the Epic levels. And, just as the 2e characters that defeated the S-K's were (by 2e standards) about 1/2 the SK's level, I propose that the same applies to 3.5e.
One of the things that I liked about VoDaF was that it specifically said the following: Killing the Dragon is less a matter of fire power than campaign direction.
This applies to the SK's too. Kill em if you want to, though they should all have contingency plans for survival.
I have seen level 20 builds that could kill the Athas.org Dregoth in 1 round or even 1 hit but such builds tend to be heavily optimised and not really practical in a real game. A Half Giant Hulking Hurler might be able to do it though. The basic idea was to throw an 8 foot wide lead ball for 14000d6 damage or something like that.
We played a monty haul speljammer game in 2nd ed and made it to level 14-19 depending on the class and that was all day every day during school holidays for about 6 weeks. Out of all the DS players IRL I never heard of one of them making it to level 20 let alone 20/20 Psion/Wizard to qualify for an advanced being.
One thing I really liked aboout the ELH was the infinate level progression thing. I think they should have concentrated on level 21-30 with rules maybe up to level 40. Anyone of level 20+is really powerfu and well epic but theres this well XYZ creature is more powerful expectation. The Archfiends are very powerful/scary but since creatures lke prismatic dragons and abominations exist people exect them to be CR 60+.
The epic rules also don't work that well and the ELH is a bit of a dog realy even by 3.0 standards. How can beings 3500+ years old only be level 20-30 or something similar in CR? Well they're NPCs so unlike PCs they don't go out every say and kill and loot things. Also at level 20+ theres just not that many epic critters to kill so theywon't be getting that much xp anyway. Finally they rule cities and I assume that they would spend xp creating magic items or crafting epic spells or just plain old wish spells.
Heck in 3rd edition its not to hard for an 18 year old PC to hit level 20 before his 19th birthday. Just kill lotsa stuff or do a level 1-20 adventure path or something like that. In the City of the Spider Queen adventure you can go from level 10-15 in about 40-60 odd days of game time. What PCs do shouldn't really be applied to NPCs who often have better things to do than kill stuf all day every day which is what D&D is really about in regards to its xp/advancement system.
Nomadicc I more or less agree with everything in your post.
You're right on the mark... the system easily allows for well-equipped and prepared 20-ish level characters to house a much higher-level foe. At the same time, a level 20 wizard or psion, with time and prep, can easily TPK a similar leveled party.
SKs and the like should never be taken unprepared... :P
I ran a 2e DS campaign for 4.5 years and the highest level character was 18-ish. Advancement in 3e is much more rapid (system con, IMO), but the relative power levels should be equivalent across the systems. A 5th-level 2e wizard has about the same spells, etc as a 3e one; a 25th-level psion is a powerful, epic character who is a major mover-and-shaker in the world - in both 2e and 3e.
Following the lead concept from 2e, a 21st+-level party should be able to threaten the SKs and their peers. Figuring in the power-inflation with 3.5, I'd say the CRs of the lesser SKs roll in around mid to high 20s, Dregoth mid-30s, with perhaps Borys nearing 40.
* SIDEBAR WARNING *
The root problem, though, is the wishy-washiness of the CR system above 15 or so. For example, a psion 10/wizard 10 is a 20th level character, and considered CR20, but there's no way they compare in power to a fighter 20 or a wizard 20. Same goes for the SK builds, which are mostly around 10 here, 10 there levels of caster. Yeah, Kal's Dregoth build is CR64, but WTF does that even mean at that level?
And certainly the epic rules are also suspect.
Totally rambling now...
The problem with the Epic rules is that after a point, it is ridiculous as far as power level. Casting an epic spell that grants you a +X bonus to whatever makes any task possible. Spellcasters just become unstoppable. Poor fighters have little options. Unless you use ToB, but even then, there is no Epic Blade Magic, or at least none that can compare with Epic Spells.
You're right on the mark... the system easily allows for well-equipped and prepared 20-ish level characters to house a much higher-level foe. At the same time, a level 20 wizard or psion, with time and prep, can easily TPK a similar leveled party.
SKs and the like should never be taken unprepared... :P
True - it works both ways, but the point still stands that it's quite possible. And, as cnahumck pointed out, ultimately it's a matter of campaign direction.
Following the lead concept from 2e, a 21st+-level party should be able to threaten the SKs and their peers. Figuring in the power-inflation with 3.5, I'd say the CRs of the lesser SKs roll in around mid to high 20s, Dregoth mid-30s, with perhaps Borys nearing 40.
It's just this "power inflation" that I have a problem with - as Zardnaar pointed out, a character can easily get to 20th level before 1 in-game year has passed. In the case of the S-K's, they've had *millennia* to level...with hundreds upon hundreds of those years actually spent in war. One of my biggest problems with leaving them at those lower levels is that, due to the CR/power level spread, it makes it that much easier for a lower-level group of PCs to take them on...and every piece of fluff we have regarding the S-K's shows that, artifacts or crazy-powerful magical transformations aside, they're close enough to godlike in their abilities that there's no point in even attempting to take them on. In the PP, every S-K was destroyed by Rajaat or one of Rajaat's artifacts, and out of all those who faced them directly, the only reason any survived was because they had an artifact or similar uber-buff, were considered too trivial to be bothered with when compared to the other characters present, or because the S-K's were pompous a-hole's who decided to "play with their prey" rather than outright crushing them. In the case of the death's, each was a matter of "DM plot-hammering" - not a single S-K death in the PP made any sense when compared to the abilities they were shown to possess elsewhere, except when taken in the context of "...but it made for a good story."
The root problem, though, is the wishy-washiness of the CR system above 15 or so. For example, a psion 10/wizard 10 is a 20th level character, and considered CR20, but there's no way they compare in power to a fighter 20 or a wizard 20. Same goes for the SK builds, which are mostly around 10 here, 10 there levels of caster. Yeah, Kal's Dregoth build is CR64, but WTF does that even mean at that level?
Absolutely! ...and yet another reason why "CR 40ish" S-K's work for me; my S-K builds involve multiple classes, many of which really don't add a whole lot to the character as a whole. Sure, I could rebuild them using the PHB2 rules, but that's such a game-mechanic-specific rule that I can't justify any of the S-K's having done it; they rose to power through their abilities, they're a bunch of pompous, vain jerks, so why would they ever think that they were anything less than perfect and therefore somehow in need of "a revision"?
The problem with the Epic rules is that after a point, it is ridiculous as far as power level. Casting an epic spell that grants you a +X bonus to whatever makes any task possible. Spellcasters just become unstoppable. Poor fighters have little options. Unless you use ToB, but even then, there is no Epic Blade Magic, or at least none that can compare with Epic Spells.
Correction: Devastating Critical (plus prereq's, of course), a nice magical weapon with a base threat range of 18-20 and a range of other magical items to compliment these and your fighter is basically auto-killing an enemy once per round. Start combining this with buff magic (or the equivalent in magical items, as I noted above) - and especially those nifty feats/powers/spells/class abilities that let you crit things normally not affected by critical hits and it gets even worse.
...but I digress. ;)
It's just this "power inflation" that I have a problem with - as Zardnaar pointed out, a character can easily get to 20th level before 1 in-game year has passed. In the case of the S-K's, they've had *millennia* to level...with hundreds upon hundreds of those years actually spent in war. One of my biggest problems with leaving them at those lower levels is that, due to the CR/power level spread, it makes it that much easier for a lower-level group of PCs to take them on..."
This makes more sense than anything else I've heard on the subject for a long time. In easy terms, the lower levels of 3e about equal those of 1e/2e, but at the higher levels (11+ or so), they diverge in the experience point area... Whereas 2e xp tables jumped into the hundreds of thousands per level, 3e only requires another thousand on top of last level's requirement.
Makes for a retardedly rapid advancement at high levels. Granted, the xp reward system is somewhat different, but in the old days, it took way more than 13.3 encounters to level up from 12th to 13th! (unless you were giving out serious 'story' xp)
That being said, in terms of time-spent-adventuring, PCs would probably be around 30-40 in an equivalent length campaign. I have no fundamental problem with that, but the epic ruleset ain't great, and doesn't really provide for any interesting advancement options.
I vote for a rework of the xp progression! (some already do this as a houserule)
...but I digress. ;)
Don't we all?
This makes more sense than anything else I've heard on the subject for a long time. In easy terms, the lower levels of 3e about equal those of 1e/2e, but at the higher levels (11+ or so), they diverge in the experience point area... Whereas 2e xp tables jumped into the hundreds of thousands per level, 3e only requires another thousand on top of last level's requirement.
Exactly - although WotC put out rules for converting a 2e character to 3e, when you look at the relative XP levels it's not even close. For a 2e character to get to 20th level, then dual-class and get back to 20th level again would require an extreme amount of time; in fact, even with monstrous story rewards, I can't even imagine how a DM could possibly get a group of PCs to that level without them killing off every last creature from the face of the game world.
...which reminds me of the antics of a group of NPCs. I just can't put my finger on who I'm thinking of... ;)
Don't we all?
We were discussing monkeys on rollerblades, right?
1. Focus on level 21-30
2. Provide xp tables for up to level 40 advancement.
3.Mention that while advancement beyond level 40 is in theory possable in reality its almost inconcievable.
4. Ditch epic magic. Replace with level 10+ spells.
Maybe in 4th edition eh? Hopefully by then they've toned down some of the more abusive spells and classes (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Psion).
The Archfiends in a standard D&D game a millenia old and generally hover in the CR 21-30 range. To me The Dragon should be CR 35 or so while a 2nd ed level 21 Dragon would be CR 22 -23 something like that.
I've read alot of D&D source material from alot of worldsand I have come across a grand total of 2 NPCs whose level was over 40 (41 and 42 IIRC) and both were in the ancient history of the Forgotten Realms- Netherese to be precise. I've read DS, Draonlance, Spelljammer, alot of FR,Birthright, Eberrron, Mystara, Planescape.
I've taken the old sorceror king levels and turned them into NPCs with their old level roughly indicating what CR they are +2. Eg Borys is a level 30 Dragon/Psion. I made hom CR 30, then bumped it up to 32 as 1 level 30 Psion+1 level 30 wizard=EL 32 and then designed him as a Dragon who should be tough enough for a CR 32 odd creature. I then played it safe by bumping up his CR by 1 or 2 and that also gives you room fora template if you want. Not I'm not a big fan of templates that adjust a creatures CR by more than +2 or so as the extra powers gained form the template don't usually add up to the CR the creature really is. A level 11 vampire fighter is CR 13 for example but in practice is probably about 11. The level 11 fighter is more like CR 10 despite what the rules say and by the rules a level 20 Warrior Commoner or Expert is CR 19 (more like 10)
While incomplete heres a rough conversion I'm working on for The Dragon as presented in the original boxed set so Borys isn't a level 30/30 Psion/Defiler.
The Dragon of Tyr
Colossal Dragon (Unique)
Hit Dice: 40d12+480hp (960 hit points)
Initiative:+4
Speed: 60ft, fly 250 ft (clumsy)
Armor Class: 56 (-8 size,+54 natural, touch 2, flat footed 54)
Base Attack/Grapple: +40/+74
Attack: +38* melee (4d8+38 bite)
Full Attack: +38* melee (4d8+38, bite) +36* melee (4d6+29, 2 claws) +36* melee (2d8+29, 2 wings), +36* melee (4d6 +47, tail slap)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/20ft (30ft with bite)
Special Attacks: breath weapon,frightful presence,psionics, Rajaats Champion, spells,
Special Qualities: dragon traits,fast healing 10, SR 38, DR 20/magic and metal
Saves: (help please)
Abilities: Str 47, Dex 10, Con 34, Int 34, Wis 36, Cha 34
Skills: Concentration +55, Diplomacy +55, Escape Artist +43 ,Intimidate +55, Gather Information +55, Knowledge Arcana +55, Knowledge Geography +55,Knowledge:History 55, Knowledge: Local +55,Knowledge :Nobility and Royalty +55,Listen +56,Sense Motive +56,Search +55,Spot+56, Spellcraft+55, Use Magic Device +55
Feats: Dragon Magic(B), Improved Initiative, Multi Attack,Power Attack,
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating:27
Treasure:special
Alignment: LE
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment:-
*includes 20 point power attack
Breath Weapon: Cone of superheated sand, only half the damage is fire damage the rest is from the sheer force of sand particles.25d12 damage (DC 42 reflex save for half).
Frightful Presence (Ex)360 foot radius, 40 HD or less, Will DC42 negates.
Rajaats Champion. When making a full attack The Dragon may cast a quickened defiler spell or a quickened psionic power.
Spells: As 20th level Defiler DC 22+spell level
Psionics: As 20th level Psion (Telepath?) DC 22+power level
Epic Spells Known 4/?
The epic-level rules are not solid. Many elements are just plain broken, particularly with spells. Consider that overcoming spells is based on level-checks. Also, Mordenkainan's Disjunction in epic level campaigns is thrown around indiscriminately with meta-magic feats applied to make it even more obnoxious.
The recent Codex of the Abyss books re-tooled the Demon Princes and Nine Lords to be closer to CR 20 than 30, with optional rules to beef them up as needed. I think a similar principle should be considered for the Sorcerer Kings of Athas.
CR is not solely reflected in the level of the creature. It's also a reflection of their natural abilities and equipment. A Sorcerer-King of Athas is going to have some serious equipment to boost their power. And catch one alone? I don't think so. Any group of PC's is going to have to go through some serious encounters with high-level templars, psions, defilers, and whatnot before they even reach a Sorcerer-King. (And given the level of intellect a sorcerer-king has, I highly doubt they can be tricked or fooled into walking into an ambush, unless your players are extremely clever.)
Consider that the amount of money and equipment that an Athasian PC has in comparison to a PC from another campaign setting is likely to be very low. For example, having a metal weapon in Athas is like having a magical one in other settings. So you can't automatically apply equivalent CR's; in many cases the Athasian creatures are going to be much stronger and harder to defeat.
Sorcerer-Monarch? Has the big bad evil known as political-correctness now entered Athas?
Should we call them "Arcane-Enabled Sovereigns"? As if the place wasn't already bad enough...1. Most people don't play epic games. Apparently its something like 99% or all D&D gamers don't play epic PCs.
2. At lower CRs they are actually usable. At CR 30 + very few ppl will use them in game.
3. Previous stats like the Book Of Vile Darkness were a little off in CR. Compare a 3.0 Balor to a Balor in 3.5. Even then Balors are supposedly easy for their CR at those levels in 3.5.
Our play group is having a small break form d20 ATM and we're playing d6 Star Wars. One of the payers joked the other day "wow fights last longer than 3 rounds" which seems to happen alot of the time in D&D baring unusal circumstances. You also tend to be rather cautious as well as opposed to the D&D kick in the door style of gaming.
Critters and NPC's tend to stalk my players, more often than the other way around. a CR 4 bog wader can put some serious hurt on a 8th level party if handled correctly. It's funny to watch them cry too.
Exactly. Look at what happened to Dregoth and Kalid-Ma. Knowing that the only thing that your peers would ever work together on would be your complete and utter annihilation should you become too powerful would be a great deterrent. I'm sure the aftermath of Borys's accelerated transformation (a century of rampaging and defilement) is more than enough to keep the rest of the SMs at bay.
One thing that always did bother me, on that note, is what happened to Dregoth's bestial rages? He is a stage nine dragon, and he's supposed to have had uncontrollable animalistic periods. Did he find some way to suppress them? Did he go slowly enough that he really didn't have to worry about it? I have always just kind of said that the rages can be controlled (though not 100% of the time) if the process is done in ten steps. Borys, Kalid-Ma, etc. could not control their rage because the process was heavily accelerated. Ideas?
In Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, Nibenay gives Hamanu a spell that will preserve his sanity and not go animalistic.
In Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, Nibenay gives Hamanu a spell that will preserve his sanity and not go animalistic.
Eh, Rise and Fall is iffy at best. Great story for the most part, but not so great in terms of the dreaded "canon." It has been a while since I have read RaF (my copy is not in the best shape), so I can't remember off the top of my head if Nibenay gave that spell to Hamanu early or late. If he gave it early, I would throw it out right off the bat because if Nibenay had access to such a spell, he would not have any need of Siemhouk as his senior templar (Ivory Triangle, City-State of Nibenay 28), as her ability to calm bestial rages would be unnecessary. If he gave it later, well, that still doesn't explain Dregoth.
I did notice, however, that after Dregoth was created, future references to the dragon process were altered to state that the animalistic period ended after 28th level instead of after 29th (Defilers and Preservers 36), and that the rage was not a given, only a possibility (with a check each month to see if sanity prevailed). Obviously, Dregoth was created with a couple of instances of forgetting about previous rules, so like many other things in the revised setting, they were simply changed to fit the new scheme of things.
In short, the process is "safe" so to speak if done in ten steps. There is still a chance of bestial rage, but it can be suppressed with great effort. Skipping multiple levels, like Kalid-Ma and Borys, assures a period of insanity, as not even the strongest of wills can resist the pain and suffering of such a rapid transformation.
Eh, Rise and Fall is iffy at best. Great story for the most part, but not so great in terms of the dreaded "canon." It has been a while since I have read RaF (my copy is not in the best shape), so I can't remember off the top of my head if Nibenay gave that spell to Hamanu early or late. If he gave it early, I would throw it out right off the bat because if Nibenay had access to such a spell, he would not have any need of Siemhouk as his senior templar (Ivory Triangle, City-State of Nibenay 28), as her ability to calm bestial rages would be unnecessary. If he gave it later, well, that still doesn't explain Dregoth.
I did notice, however, that after Dregoth was created, future references to the dragon process were altered to state that the animalistic period ended after 28th level instead of after 29th (Defilers and Preservers 36), and that the rage was not a given, only a possibility (with a check each month to see if sanity prevailed). Obviously, Dregoth was created with a couple of instances of forgetting about previous rules, so like many other things in the revised setting, they were simply changed to fit the new scheme of things.
In short, the process is "safe" so to speak if done in ten steps. There is still a chance of bestial rage, but it can be suppressed with great effort. Skipping multiple levels, like Kalid-Ma and Borys, assures a period of insanity, as not even the strongest of wills can resist the pain and suffering of such a rapid transformation.
Lynn Abbey did make a lot of mistakes in that book, yes. I'm going if I can try to dig up it somewhere, Kevin Melka said that most of her stuff was, yes in fact non-canon back in 96 on the AOL Dark Sun board. One of them is Hamanu knowing of Dregoth still existing and ruling New Guistenal. None of the Sorceror Monarchs know he's still alive, the last time they saw him is when they ganged up on him and killed him.
Lynn Abbey did make a lot of mistakes in that book, yes. I'm going if I can try to dig up it somewhere, Kevin Melka said that most of her stuff was, yes in fact non-canon back in 96 on the AOL Dark Sun board. One of them is Hamanu knowing of Dregoth still existing and ruling New Guistenal. None of the Sorceror Monarchs know he's still alive, the last time they saw him is when they ganged up on him and killed him.
It's definitely not considered "canon," but I did enjoy the story (except for the ending). I was just saying that I really don't buy into the "Nibenay giving Hamanu a spell to calm the rages" theory. There are too many other "canonical" references that refute such a claim. I just feel like Dregoth was another example of later designers forgetting about parts of previously-published material. He never had an animalistic rampage, so in revisionist fashion they changed the rules later on to make it mesh with their mistake.
More important is the intent of the story - entertainment or education.
SO, in the telling of RaFoaDK, Abbey may have fudged the lines some - but the main vector of the tale is true. Same goes for the rules designers - many were delving into unknown territory (20+ levels, 10th level spells, etc). Certainly the tales of Denning and Abbey are not going to absolutely match up with the ruleset of AD&D 2e Dark Sun.
Rikus has tons of trouble with the Gaj, but takes down Kalak like a pro. The Gaj in the game stats just ain't that great...
Anyway, suppose Nibenay's "spell", as Abbey tells it, is something along the lines of his high templar... the gray areas there leave a lot for you to develop yourself.
All the epic rules problems aside, old school D&D (I mean, like the Known World stuff) back in tha day had levels and abilities running up to level 50!! And they weren't half bad, if I remember right. The progression was quicker than AD&D, much like 3e... All of the stuff in the Master box (40-50) was good, and the Immortals box, while dreadfully complex and incomlete, was a gold mine of ideas.
How does this relate to sorcerer-king levels? I donno...
At the core of the issue, we're going to disagree as a community of individuals, because we play different campaign styles. If you want SKs to be near omnipotent, godlike beings that are unassailable by PCs, then why stat them out, or why bother stating out a CR69 being if your players will never come close? Just don't and let the campaign ride on the knowledge that their power is set. I well remember an infamous line from Dragon's Crown along the lines of "as a sorcerer-king, Hamanu can unlease -Wishes- and -Meteor Swarms- all day long!"
Now, if you want to run a campaign where SK's are valid, if high-power, enemies to confront, then so be it...
I guess we'll go round-and-round until somewith the DS rights publishes an "official" version... and even then... :P
For much of the canon inconsitencies, I liken it to the developers are storytellers - trying to convey a parable or meaning in their words but not necessarily sticking entirely to the truth.
More important is the intent of the story - entertainment or education [...] Certainly the tales of Denning and Abbey are not going to absolutely match up with the ruleset of AD&D 2e Dark Sun.
I give you great appreciation for stating this, as I brought this very same thing up in a thread last summer and got jumped on
. It had something to do with the mechanics behind the final battle of the Prism Pentad or something like that, and I maintained that there isn't going to be an easy transition because the primary intent with any of the novels is to tell a good story, with any rules or game considerations a distant second at best. SO, in the telling of RaFoaDK, Abbey may have fudged the lines some - but the main vector of the tale is true. Same goes for the rules designers - many were delving into unknown territory (20+ levels, 10th level spells, etc).
Define what you mean by "true." If by "true" you mean "generally accepted as what really officially happened on Athas," then RaF is definitely not true. If by "true" you mean "internally consistent (though not externally consistent) and composed well enough to make a logically coherent, appealing tale," then I absolutely agree with you--except for the ending ;).
As for the rules designers, however, I think your statement is only partially true. Yes, at times they were delving into new territory, but in other instances--such as the Dregoth lacking an animalistic stage despite being permanently at 29th-level--they didn't make a pioneering mistake, they made a consistency mistake. Rulesets should be compatible with previously-published material or, if the old material is found to be unfit, the revision should be published alongside the change. This did not happen in instances such as with Dregoth. Granted, it's a pretty minor flub, but it definitely cannot be solely attributed to being "rule pioneers."
This did not happen in instances such as with Dregoth. Granted, it's a pretty minor flub, but it definitely cannot be solely attributed to being "rule pioneers."
You're right on. I'm not trying to justify the mistakes made by TSRs designers if they were too lazy, overworked or underedited to catch the small details. Unfortunately in material like this, given its imaginary roots, there are going to be inconcistencies along the way. Before they re-birthed it in the mid-90s, the Greyhawk community debated this stuff endlessly.
It remains for us to decided whether intended something special (like in Dregoth's animalistic stage) and failed to properly explain it, or just porked it away.
You're right on. I'm not trying to justify the mistakes made by TSRs designers if they were too lazy, overworked or underedited to catch the small details. Unfortunately in material like this, given its imaginary roots, there are going to be inconcistencies along the way. Before they re-birthed it in the mid-90s, the Greyhawk community debated this stuff endlessly..
I can imagine. There was a lot more to work with in Greyhawk too. I feel like Dark Sun's original concept--the original boxed set, Dragon Kings, and the first few products--was pretty cohesive. Then again, it's pretty easy to be cohesive when a lot of things are left open-ended.
Personally, I don't stray too far from the original idea of Dark Sun. Granted, I like some things that came later (Dregoth, Oronis, etc), and there are obviously some things that I don't like (windsurfing druids, many dead SKs, para-elemental priests), but in general I try to stick with the basics.Sorcerer-Monarch? Has the big bad evil known as political-correctness now entered Athas?
Wiccan Administrators is the preferred term actually :P
In any case the Dread Beast of Poltical Correctness has been stalking the burnt wastes for some time already. I picked up the term Sorcerer-Monarch from someone else when I was a member of the Dark Sun mailing list, which must be about ten years ago now. I also note that most of the rulebooks, including player-made rules, say "he or she" and the like when pre-PC grammer rules would say "he" suffices, or else periodically switch between using "he" and "she".
On a side note I think it's interesting that most of the templarates appear to have an equal opportunities policy regarding race and gender, which is quite surprising for unpleasant regimes run by ex-genocidal-mass-murderers!
I also note that most of the rulebooks, including player-made rules, say "he or she" and the like when pre-PC grammer rules would say "he" suffices, or else periodically switch between using "he" and "she".
Yeah, even English teachers really don't know yet what to say on the matter, there's been no consensus on how to deal with gender pronoun issues.
"Sorcerer-King" just has a sense of power and majesty that, in my opinion, "Sorcerer-Monarch" lacks. Maybe it's the one-verses-two syllables, I don't know.
On a side note I think it's interesting that most of the templarates appear to have an equal opportunities policy regarding race and gender, which is quite surprising for unpleasant regimes run by ex-genocidal-mass-murderers!
Well, except for Nibenese templars... I don't think we ever see anything but female humans, but maybe in some of the adventures there are. One wonders if Gallard set the dress code himself, or if it was indicative of Nibenay's culture prior to his arrival.
Regardless, the source materials are pretty clear that Athasians don't see Nibenese templars as objects of sexual attraction. The same mistake is made with Valkyries; historical vikings viewed them as spirits of death with NO erotic connotations whatsoever.
Yes, at times they were delving into new territory, but in other instances--such as the Dregoth lacking an animalistic stage despite being permanently at 29th-level--they didn't make a pioneering mistake, they made a consistency mistake. Rulesets should be compatible with previously-published material or, if the old material is found to be unfit, the revision should be published alongside the change. This did not happen in instances such as with Dregoth. Granted, it's a pretty minor flub, but it definitely cannot be solely attributed to being "rule pioneers."
Did he go through the period of rage on another plane, or did he only find the planar gate after he became undead?If he had the gate when he was alive, he could have gone on his rampage anywhere on the inner, outer or prime material planes, and none of the SKs would have had any way to know about it.