1. Druid (maybe 2nd)
2. Cleric (maybe 1st)
3. Wizard
4. Psion
5. Favoured Soul
6. Templar
7. Sorceror.
non spellcasters/all the rest 8th and below although the Psychic Warrio is amybe better than 5,6, and 7. Favoured Souls and Sorceros don't exist on Atahs but I included them so I could compare the Templars to other spellcasters/psions.
Anyway several questions.
1. How pure do you think the Templar ahould be to the 2nd ed mechanics? Should secular authority even be a class feature?
2. Why Charisma instead of Wisdom as a spellcasting attribute? Templars tend to be less than popular and I don't really see why Charisma was used.
3. Should Templars even be spontaneous casters? If so the're similar to a sorceror/favoured soul. How about making them similar to a Warmage or Beguiler- smaller spell list but they know every spell on that list.
Some ideas of mine.
Lose secular authority as a class feature.
Templars are proficent with all martial weapons (better training, militia/police duties)
Templars use Wisdom instead of Charisma for spellcasting
Scribe Scroll bonus feat at level 1
Bonus metamagic or item creation feat at level 5,10,15,20
I don't likethe bonus feat ideas but its just an idea for a nice and simple varient power. fFinally I got bored once and went through the spell compendium and heres a list of spells I think could be added to the Templars list. NoteFlameblade and Lightning Bolt as a2nd and 3rd level spells as they seem to get used in a bit of DS fiction in the novels and short stories in the game products.
1st Level: Blessed Aim,Conviction, Delay Disease,Dispel Ward,Heathful,Incite, Inhibit, Rest, Resurgence, Sign,Resurgence, Summon Undead I, Vigor, Lesser,Vision of Glory,
2nd Level: Aura Against Flames,Body Blades, Close Wounds, Curse of Ill Fortune,Dark Way, Deific (Kings/Queens) Vengeance, Divine Insight,Divine Interdiction,Divine Protection, Energized Shield Lesser, ,Flameblade, Ghost Touch Armor, Hand of Divinity, Healing Lorecall, Infernal Wound, Living Undeath, Mark of the Outcast, Protection From Negative Energy, Protection From Positive Energy, Quick March, Shroud of Undeath,Spawn Screen, Spell Immunity Lesser, Stabilise, Stone Bones, Summon Undead II, Veil of Shadow, Wave of Grief
3rd Level: Aid Mass, Air Breathing, Align Weapon Mass, Anarchic Storm, Axiomatic Storm, Blade of Pain and Fear, Blindsight, Chain of Eyes, Checkmates Light, Circle Dance, Cloak of Bravery, Conviction Mass, Corona of Cold, Darkfire, Downdraft, Energized Shield, Energy Vortex,Fell the Greatest Foe, Ghost Touch Weapon, Grace, Knights Move, Know Opponent, Know Vulnerabilities, Lightning Bolt, Mantle of Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nauseating breath, Rejuvenate Corpse, Resist Energy Mass, Resurgence Mass, Ring of Blades, Safety, Shield of Warding, Skull Watch, Slashing Darkness, Sonorous Hum,Spark of Life, Summon Undead III, Suppress Glyph, Tremor, Unholy Storm, Vigor, Vigor Mass Lesser, Visage of the Deity (King/Queen), Wall of Light, Weapon of Impact, Weapon of the Deity (King/Queen)
4th Level: Assay Spell Resistence, Blindsight Greater, Castigate, Consumptive Field, Contingent Energy Resistence, Delay Death, Glowing Orb, Make Manifest, Negative Energy Aura, Panacea,Positive Energy Aura, Recitation, Resistance Greater, Revanance, Shadowblast, Sheltered Vitality, Shield of Faith Mass, Sound Lance, Spell Vulnerability, Summon Undead IV, Undead Bane Weapon, Wall of Chaoe/Evil/Good/Law, Wall of Sand, Wrack.
5th Level: Aura of Evasion, Blistering Radience, Contagion Mass, Crawling Darkness, Curse of Ill Fortune, Death Throes, Divine Agility, Doomtide, Incorporal Nova, Lifes Grace, Revivify, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Sanctuary Mass, Stalwart Pact, Summon Undead V, Symbol of Spell Loss, Triad Spell, Vigor Greater, Vulnerability, Wall of Dispel Magic, Zone of Respite, Zone of Revelation
6th Level Bolt of Glory, Cold Snap, Cometfall, Energy Immunity, Ghost Trap, Hide the Path, Lucent Lance, Make Manifest Mass, Opalescent Glare, Planar Exchange, Rejection, Revive Outsider, Spider Plague, Resistance Superior, Vigorous Circle, Visage of the Deity, Zealot Pact.
7th Level:Bestow Curse Greater, Blood to Water, Brain Spider, Brilliant Blade, Consumptive Field Greater, Energy Ebb, Evil Glare,Fortunate Fate, Radient Assault, Renewal Pact, Restoration Mass, Spell Resistence Mass, Symphonic Nightmare, Withering Palm
8th Level: Brilliant Aura, Death Pact, Death Ward Mass, General of Undeath, Heat Drain,Veil of Undeath, Wall of Greater Dispel Magic.
9th Level: Plague of Undead, Undeaths Eternal Foe, Visage of the Deity (King/Queen) Greater
Anyway several questions.
1. How pure do you think the Templar ahould be to the 2nd ed mechanics? Should secular authority even be a class feature?
Secular Authority should be a feat which the templar gets for free at 1st level and receives a bonus equal their class level to use. Think along the lines of how a monk uses Stunning Fist more efficiently than non-monks with the same feat.
2. Why Charisma instead of Wisdom as a spellcasting attribute? Templars tend to be less than popular and I don't really see why Charisma was used.
I feel making them Charisma based makes sense. Being a templar is about political influence and using it to climb the city-states hierarchal ladder to gain ever increasing positions of power and prestige.
3. Should Templars even be spontaneous casters? If so the're similar to a sorceror/favoured soul. How about making them similar to a Warmage or Beguiler- smaller spell list but they know every spell on that list.
This may have some merrit.
Templars are really not a great PC class, unless you kinda base the entire campaign around one city, or have a group of characters related to the templarhood.
In my old campaign, I had a templar PC, but I had to bend a lot of the 'rules' to make her endeavors and adventures make sense in the big picture of serving her SK.
I like the Secular Authority ability - cool roleplaying fodder, but as mentioned, not so helpful in the desert sands.
Final verdict - can be a great roleplaying class in a city-state based campaign.
For the class structure, I think the warmage/artificer type spell-list idea is valid... perhaps with specific lists (or domains) based on the different sorcerer kings. For example, a templar of Hamanu would have a somewhat different set of spells available than a templar of Lalali-Puy. This allows you to customize the spell-lists to the 'flavor' of the SK.
With a limited spell list, and semi-useful core ability (sec auth), the class needs either bonus feats (perhaps a select list like fighters/wizards) to beef it up, or some city-state/SK specific abilities at given levels.
For example, all templars gain 'Sorcerer-Kings Gift I' at 2nd level... For Tyrian templars, that equals X; for Urikites, Y; Gulgans, Z and so on. Templars gain 'Gift II' at 5th, 'Gift III' at 8th, and so on or whatever. Point is, they all get an upgrade at the same level, but the specifics of that upgrade vary based on their home city.
I think the templar PrCs are way confusing to the need for a templar base class. I say axe 'em. Instead, have PCs rely on taking levels in the templar class for those abilities. If you want to design a PrC that goes beyond the core templar, cool... but having a "Wife of Nibenay" PrC or the like for my templar wannabes seems extraneous.
The 'elemental vortex' is contrived, and smacks of a lame story some bard made up one night to fend off a bar full of angry patrons.
For templars without SKs (Tyr, Raam, Balic, etc), it basically becomes an NPC class. Thats okay with me, but it should be addressed.
1. Spell memorisation a'la the Cleric
2. Spontaneous caster with spells known similar to Athas.org/sorceror/favoured soul
3. Spontaneous caster similar to warmage/beguiler. Very small spell list but knows every spell on it and can spontaneously cast any of them.
I'm not a fan of 2 unless they get some bonus feats or something as the Templar as written isn't that good as a PC class or even as an NPC class compared to other primary spellcasters.
As suggested earlier in the thread, what if templars had access to domains based on their SK? You could make them casters like a warmage/beguiler per Zandaar's suggestion, but only give them access to every spell under their SKs domain instead along with the domain power.
Gave this some thought.
As suggested earlier in the thread, what if templars had access to domains based on their SK?
Oh yeah! :D
Gave this some thought.
As suggested earlier in the thread, what if templars had access to domains based on their SK? You could make them casters like a warmage/beguiler per Zandaar's suggestion, but only give them access to every spell under their SKs domain instead along with the domain power.
This had been discussed before and if people want domains - which I am actually using but call "influences" IMC - you can see my sig for some of the ones I have posted.
I have more, but they are still in the development and tweeking stage to get them right. I have 2 influences for each SK and then I have bureau spell lists for specific jobs within a city state that are the same. So using this, it gives templars from different city-states and in different jobs a unique spell selection.
If there is enough interest, I could be persuaded to finish and post all of the "templar domains" that I have.
If there is enough interest, I could be persuaded to finish and post all of the "templar domains" that I have.
Slacker
I was thinking more along the lines of aligning the SKs with existing domains instead of creating brand new ones (Granted, a single Sorcerer-King domain would be pretty cool).
I was thinking these were fair domain pairings for each of the SK:
Daskinor-The Insane Monarch (Madness, Chaos)
Dregoth-The Dread King (Death, Destruction)
Hamanu-The Lion of Urik (War, Strength)
Oronis-The Redeemed Patron (Magic, Protection)
Andropinis-The Lord of Shades (Travel, Darkness)
Lalali-Puy-The Oba of Gulg (Plant, Animal)
Nibenay-The Shadow King (Knowledge, Trickery)
I remember those.
I thinking more along the lines of aligning the SKs with existing domains instead of creating brand new ones (Granted, a single Sorcerer-King domain would be pretty cool).
I was thinking these were fair domain pairings for each of the SK:
Well - as you had pointed out before, the things that I have done are simular to some of the existing domains, but with some slight changes where I thought it was needed. Now I did make some of them, but that is only to keep the DS stuff more original.
I the influences and bureaus are handy IMO - it makes each templar a bit more unique and interesting. I also have a different spell progression though to allow for these two "domains" - as well as my High Tmeplar that is in the works, who gets both influence spell lists and powers - showing how more "connected" they are to the SK of their choice.
I guess I will have to finish this stuff off an dpost it soon so I can get some additional input on it.
Renaming the domains to influences is fine, and correct me if I'm wrong, but they appear to be essentially the same thing.
Maybe in the Classes section of the Players Guide to Faerun thread I might add Cleric as Templar option or Templar as Favoured Soul if you would prefer using one of those classes to represent a Templar.
While I agree originality is nice, sometimes the simplest solutions are the best. That could just be me though ;)
Renaming the domains to influences is fine, and correct me if I'm wrong, but they appear to be essentially the same thing.
I think I already said this - but yes, the influences are mostly the same as the cleric domains in the PHB - though some are different and others new IIRC.
IMC influences do work in a kind of simular manner to cleric domains, but seeing as how templars are spontanious spellcasters, these are spells that get added to their known spells (to replace the assigned spells) - and like I said, I have a different spell progression for templars in my game.
The bureau spells can get changed if a templar moved to a different job, say like from Security to the King's Game or the Magristry, where as a cleric is stuck with their chosen domains - kind of like how a sorcerer can change their spells at certian levels.
I think Domains should be left out of it if Templars are spontaneous caster. However you could create a feat that add the spells on a domain to the Templars spells known. 1 Feat 9 extra spells known once you reach the right levels to cast it. A War Bureau feat for example adds the War domain spells to the Templars known spells.
I don't know, a spontaneous caster with a spell list made up domain spells seems rather intriguing to me.
Secular Authority should be a feat which the templar gets for free at 1st level and receives a bonus equal their class level to use. Think along the lines of how a monk uses Stunning Fist more efficiently than non-monks with the same feat.
Over a year ago, I tried to take another approach for using Secular Authority, but back then, the reply was scarce. So if anyone else has some opinions about my approach, feel free to take a look and post here!
As for spells and domains/bureaus, I think, it will be really hard to make one Spell Known List useable by every Templer and add Domain/Bureau Spells. None of the bureau spell should be Templer Known Spell (unless it would be a lower spell level) then. Creating those lists will probably a lot of work. But the idea sounds pretty good, IMHO.
I don't know, a spontaneous caster with a spell list made up domain spells seems rather intriguing to me.
Wpould that be something similat to the Athas.org templar+domain type spells or only domain spells known? I'm thinking something like a divine beguiler/warmage. Very small spell list. Knows every spell on it and have bureau/domain type feats which let you know mor spells. Means we would have to rebuild the class a bit.
Wpould that be something similat to the Athas.org templar+domain type spells or only domain spells known? I'm thinking something like a divine beguiler/warmage. Very small spell list. Knows every spell on it and have bureau/domain type feats which let you know mor spells.
Only domain spells as spells known in the vein of a devine beguiler/warmage.
Means we would have to rebuild the class a bit.
I have no problem with that
Only domain spells as spells known in the vein of a devine beguiler/warmage.
I'm a little bit confused on what your idea is. Could you give an example, how many (or which) spells a templar would get (for example a 3rd level templar of Haman)?
How about.
Hit dice: d8
Skil Points per level 4 (use Athas.orgs skil list?)
Saves: As monk/favoured soul
Spells: Use Favoured Soul/Sorcerors spells per day.
Charisma a primary spellcasting stat.
Class Features?
Turn undead at level 3
Spells known. Every spell on the Templar spell list. Now we need to design a Templar spell list. We would need about 8-20 spells on it at each level with more spells at the lower end of the spell list (level 1-3 spells) nd only a few at level 9. We dont need as tightly focused spell list as a Beguiler/Warmage but a few things Templars shouldn't probably have.
1. A huge amount of elemental spells. The odd one relating to battle would be fine (flameblade, lightning bolt, flamestirike etc) but this should be the clerics forte.
2. To many Necromantic spells. Maybe there was a reason the Sorceror Kings needed necromancers. Templers probably weren't very good at it.
3. Conjuration spells involving outsiders/elementals.
IMHO such a spell list should focus on battle and divination spells to carry out the kings duties with an few other spells sprinkled in or ones that make sense (healing spells and inflict spells for example). Hold Person and Hold Monster would also make sense IMHO. Wouldn't hurt the class to have the odd Druid or Wizard spell in there as well. I have to go to work soon and I'll have a think about it and most up a tentative list tonight. The list could also be expanded through Bureau feats or domains and other feats like my initiate feats.
1 Enlarge Person (Strength)
1 Magic Weapon (War)
2 Bull’s Strength (Strength)
2 Spiritual Weapon (War)
Additionally, the templar would have the domain powers of both the Strength and War domains.
A specialty "Sorcerer-King" domain could be made to encompass the templar only spells from athas.org’s 3.5 DS core rules.
A 3rd-level templar of Hamanu spell list would be comprised of the following:
1 Enlarge Person (Strength)
1 Magic Weapon (War)
2 Bull’s Strength (Strength)
2 Spiritual Weapon (War)
Additionally, the templar would have the domain powers of both the Strength and War domains.
So basically a templar would know 2 spells per spell level? Wouldn't that be too few spells? Or was your plan, that a templar would get additional spell by other sources as well?
Kalthandrix if you made Bureau feats would you allow retraining rules from the Players Handbook 2 if a Templar changed bureaus?
I did not make any feats - so I do not know what you mean with this.
So basically a templar would know 2 spells per spell level? Wouldn't that be too few spells? Or was your plan, that a templar would get additional spell by other sources as well?
Well, there is the SK domain idea. I can't recall how large of a spell list a beguiler/warmage has (don't have my books with me right now).
There's the option of Bureau Feats (as pointed out) which may add a few more spells to the templar's list.
Well, there is the SK domain idea. I can't recall how large of a spell list a beguiler/warmage has (don't have my books with me right now).
The Beguiler/Warmage knows:
The Beguiler/Warmage knows:
So, a 3rd-level beguiler's spell list would consist of 7 0-lvl, 14 1st-lvl, & 18 2nd-level spells?
A beguiler must be 4th level to cast 2nd level spells. Btw. he knows one additional spell at 3rd level and every 4 thereafter. Personally, I'm not realy a fan of the beguiler, in fact, I don't like most of the PHB2, but the warmage (CArc) seems like a decent class.
There is one thing to consider though. As the warmage's spell list consists heavily of evocation spells the beguiler's spell list consists of illuision and enchantment spells. (I haven't checked each spell, but this was the impression I got.)
If the templar is going to get a fixed spell known list, it has to be considered that it shouldn't have too many spells in that, if the spells are from different schools.
If the templar is going to get a fixed spell known list, it has to be considered that it shouldn't have too many spells in that, if the spells are from different schools.
In keeping with a spell list soley comprised of domain spells the templar wouldn't have too many spells.