KOS - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

KOS

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
May 05, 2007 13:50:49 I have a question concerning the Knights of Solamnia and their rank structure, I cannot find it in KOA for the life of me. Are knights of the Sword and the Rose higher ranking than Crown knights? For example could a 1st level knight of the Sword or the Rose order a 9th level knight of the crown to do something or visa versa?
#2
zombiegleemax
May 05, 2007 18:55:22 Thats correct. It's just like in the military. A Lt. with only a year under his belt can order a Sgt. Major with 18 years under his belt to do almost anything. But there is still a certain amount of respect that needs to be there.
#3
darthsylver
May 06, 2007 6:46:11 Well this was true during 2e publications, but it appears that the rank structure has changed. Pg. 44 shows that knight's (regardless of order) ranking is derived from his status in his knighthood as well as the number of tropps under his command. For instance a marshall of the crown is the same rank as a marshall of the rose and both command a shield (approx 2,000 men) sized unit. Now according to pg. 45 this rank structure is the same as that placed by Vinas Solamnus. So where knights were outranked by knights of other orders (DL 2E) apparently was not how Vinas envisioned it, and was probably a sign of the corruption or degradation of the knighthood after the cataclysm. The only time a knight is outranked by another knight due to his order is the rank of postulant knight fro the crown, and this is only because the other orders do not have this rank as it is the first rank a knight holds when he joins the knighthood.
#4
cam_banks
May 06, 2007 7:59:32 For the most part, your assignment in the field determines whether you outrank somebody else. An experienced, highly-decorated Crown Knight commander can outrank most Rose Knights. Socially, however, there are many occasions where the title of Rose Knight will place you on a higher level than Sword or Crown Knights. Lord Knights of any order will always outrank the lower-ranking knights, too, since they are nobility (and not just knights, who are technically part of the aristocracy, but not nobles.)

Cheers,
Cam
#5
zombiegleemax
May 06, 2007 8:06:57 Thanks for clearing that up.
#6
zombiegleemax
May 06, 2007 8:10:44 How do the Kingfishers tie in then? Any knight can order tehm around?
#7
darthsylver
May 06, 2007 8:16:10 Well they are the auxiliary and not really full-fledged knights of Solamnia, so I would say yes.
#8
zombiegleemax
May 06, 2007 8:31:30 Poor Kingfishers.
#9
darthsylver
May 06, 2007 9:16:00 Yes but as we said in the navy, "You choose the rate (job), you live the fate." Basically they chose it. Actually this is one of the things that I am considering in the future campaign, I mean after years of service (if they still serve in the auxiliary) it would be kinda unfair to them wouldn't it. I mean after all, the empire finally brings in force-users and requires the emperors guards to be force-users, so who knows.
#10
zombiegleemax
May 06, 2007 9:34:34 I dont think that they would ever be grandmaster or anything like that though.
#11
darthsylver
May 06, 2007 9:50:04 You could be right there, but who knows.
#12
zombiegleemax
May 06, 2007 10:13:04 If Coryn could gain like 15 levels in her Test than anything is possible.
#13
zombiegleemax
May 06, 2007 15:40:00
For the most part, your assignment in the field determines whether you outrank somebody else. An experienced, highly-decorated Crown Knight commander can outrank most Rose Knights. Socially, however, there are many occasions where the title of Rose Knight will place you on a higher level than Sword or Crown Knights. Lord Knights of any order will always outrank the lower-ranking knights, too, since they are nobility (and not just knights, who are technically part of the aristocracy, but not nobles.)

Cheers,
Cam

Man, That new Emperor of Solamnia should fix up the ranks. It must be a mess of who salutes who around there. I feel really sorry for the band new Knight of the Crown Privates.. they must be saluting everything that moves in a castle.
#14
zombiegleemax
May 06, 2007 17:41:13 Except for the poor Kingfishers.
#15
cam_banks
May 06, 2007 17:54:36 A Kingfisher assigned to a command duty would outrank other knights stationed there. As I said, it's all a matter of your assignment. The Kingfishers are addressed as "Sir" and given all of the same rights and privileges as a Solamnic Knight, but they are not part of the three Orders, so they're lumped in with the Auxiliary.

In Price of Courage, I have a Kingfisher named Sir Haley Copperclasp stationed at Castle Eastwatch. He commands a small group of Auxiliary forces as well as a few green Knights, but among the castle's other lords and officers, he's kind of low on the totem pole.

Cheers,
Cam
#16
zombiegleemax
May 06, 2007 20:37:01
Except for the poor Kingfishers.

Yeah I guess they would be like the ROTC of the military world. >.<
#17
zombiegleemax
May 06, 2007 21:14:59 So what about knights, like PCS who might not have "official orders" but who are kind of knight errants, going around doing good things, keeping in touch with what circles they can, how do they fall into the schema of things?
#18
darthsylver
May 06, 2007 22:57:13 I would say that they are around the rank of sergeant, as those knights who have the of steward (or subcaptain) are assigned to a unit and therefore on offical orders to be with that unit. So basically if you do not have a command then you would only be able to hold the rank of sergeant. At least this is my understanding, of course the book does not exactly say this, so it is all speculation.
#19
zombiegleemax
May 07, 2007 0:58:07 What sayeth Mr. Banks on this question?
#20
cam_banks
May 07, 2007 8:34:23
What sayeth Mr. Banks on this question?

All Solamnic Knights are part of some unit or another. There shouldn't be any real "free agents." If there are some who don't seem to be attached to a circle, then in all likelihood they're going to have to deal with being outranked in every Solamnic circle they get to unless they've earned the title of Lord Knight at some point. Crown Knights, especially, will have this problem. A Sword Knight will be given more status, and a Rose Knight even more, but if the unit commander at a Solamnic circle says for a PC knight to jump, the PC knight better ask what the DC is.

Cheers,
Cam
#21
zombiegleemax
May 07, 2007 18:24:13 Could they take command of a post if necessary? Say they were the ranking knight left after a fight or something?
#22
darthsylver
May 07, 2007 19:52:59 I don't know. I would think that they are like warrant officers in the military. They can command enlisted ranks (non-knights) but not other knights. That would be my decision.
#23
zombiegleemax
May 07, 2007 20:32:46 I wonder if it depended on the PRC they were in?
#24
darthsylver
May 07, 2007 21:21:04 Why would that matter? Whatever PRC they took, would probably be an arcane spellcaster one and they would still be in the auxiliary.
#25
cam_banks
May 08, 2007 1:19:24
Could they take command of a post if necessary? Say they were the ranking knight left after a fight or something?

Sure. They'd probably want a new commander to get there as soon as possible, of course.

Remember, they're still knights, even if they're also officially members of the Orders of High Sorcery. They outrank men-at-arms and enlisted soldiers. If they're also the most experienced knight left at the post, they'd be able to assume command.

Cheers,
Cam
#26
zombiegleemax
May 08, 2007 7:28:27 I really like the Kingfishers and am working on one in one in the AOM campaign I am in.
#27
true_atlantean
May 10, 2007 6:13:08 What about age as a factor to rank? I recall that Tanis used that one in the defence of Palanthas during the Legends trilogy to take control of the defence effort. I also remember laughing out loud when I read it - one of the few times a gaming novel has elicited that response.

Does this (the issue of age) still apply in later years?
#28
zombiegleemax
May 10, 2007 9:22:25 That is an interesting concept to ponder.
#29
cam_banks
May 10, 2007 15:27:35
What about age as a factor to rank? I recall that Tanis used that one in the defence of Palanthas during the Legends trilogy to take control of the defence effort. I also remember laughing out loud when I read it - one of the few times a gaming novel has elicited that response.

Does this (the issue of age) still apply in later years?

That's what we call "experience."

Cheers,
Cam
#30
zombiegleemax
May 10, 2007 15:30:28 Or perhaps, in the situation, it was desperation?
#31
darthsylver
May 10, 2007 18:22:40 This is probably a minterpretation of the written rule. For instance if the written rules says something like this "If two Knights are of equal rank in title then the age of the knight is the deciding factor of seniority."

This can be read in a couple of different ways

1. It is possible to read the literal interpretation and refer to the amount of years that the knights has lived his life. This is how Tanis is reading it.

2. This might refer to the age in the years that the knight has held the title or how long the knight has been a knight. Sort of like "Time in grade" the way the military decides rank.

Now I am sure that in the time that Vinas wrote the code and the measure he could not forsee any non-humans becoming a knight of solamnia, so he was probably referring to both the age of the knight as well as how the person had been a knight because in the time of Vinas these two were most likely the same, or at least very cose.

This is probably one of the revisions that Gunthar would have instituted, so that these rule was clarified in that it would refer to the number of years the prson was a knight. I mean think about it, you could have a half-elf become a knight and he could conceivably outrank even the highest ranking knight the very day of his induction into the knighthood. Wait, this has already happened.

I think in this instance Tanis was simply trying to get Gunthar to realise that only Tanis had the necesary protection to confront Lord Soth, he didn't really mean to take command of the knights away from Lord Gunthar, he was actualy trying to protect him.
#32
zombiegleemax
May 10, 2007 19:52:48 I think so as well.
#33
true_atlantean
May 13, 2007 19:33:58
I think in this instance Tanis was simply trying to get Gunthar to realise that only Tanis had the necesary protection to confront Lord Soth, he didn't really mean to take command of the knights away from Lord Gunthar, he was actualy trying to protect him.

I certainly couldn't agree more. It was one of those neat situations where Tanis was able figuratively turn the tables on those who kept insisting he take up responsibility he didn't want, and at the same time do something good. It's what heroes do :D

I'd interprete the age rule as the number of years served within the ranks of the knighthood, rather than straight chronological age. Incidently, one point you raised was that Vinas probably didn't imagine the day when non-humns would be knighted. Whilst humans obviously make up the majority of knights, are there figures anywhere as to the demi-human representation? Are there any of the 'core' races that are forbidden to join (apart from kender)? I'd prefer to see the KOS as a human-half-elven organisation only.
#34
darthsylver
May 13, 2007 23:50:35 Originally posted by True_Atlantean
I'd prefer to see the KOS as a human-half-elven organisation only.

This is precisely what it is. While in DLCS the race requirement was either eliminated or simply left off due to printing error, this has been corrected with Knightly Orders of Ansalon. Now the race requirement is either human, or having a human parent. So while technically this leaves the door open to half-elves, half-ogres, and half-kender, the only one I see even standing a chance of being "accepted" as a knight (and even then maybe not as an equal) would be the half-elf.
#35
zombiegleemax
May 14, 2007 7:36:08 Darth, please define what you mean by "accepted". I know what the word means but am wondering what you are meaning by it.
#36
darthsylver
May 14, 2007 20:42:28 accepted = allowed, in this instance
#37
zombiegleemax
May 15, 2007 6:17:02 Okay.

I dont see many half kender in general, much less in the Knights.
#38
sylian
May 16, 2007 14:45:11 Half-dwarves would also qualify, eh? ;)
#39
zombiegleemax
May 16, 2007 18:11:48 As far as Half-Dwarves go I am sure the Knights would accept one pretty easily. They would just be exceptinaly stout and hairy humans...

As far as Half-Kender go, depending on if they took more after their human side then kender I am sure they could pass as a half-elf and qualify.

I doubt they would ever ever allow a Half-Ogre in.
#40
cam_banks
May 16, 2007 19:51:48 Races of Ansalon features rules for half-dwarves,half-gnomes, half-goblins, half-kender, half-elves, and half-ogres. All would be potential Solamnic Knights.

Cheers,
Cam
#41
zombiegleemax
May 16, 2007 22:19:03 What about half-Cams?:D
#42
zombiegleemax
May 18, 2007 15:00:10
Races of Ansalon features rules for half-dwarves,half-gnomes, half-goblins, half-kender, half-elves, and half-ogres. All would be potential Solamnic Knights.

Cheers,
Cam

I always thought Half-Dwarves where scottish humans...
#43
zombiegleemax
May 18, 2007 19:59:23 Have their ever been half-dwarves in the books?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 05, 2007 13:50:49	I have a question concerning the Knights of Solamnia and their rank structure, I cannot find it in KOA for the life of me. Are knights of the Sword and the Rose higher ranking than Crown knights? For example could a 1st level knight of the Sword or the Rose order a 9th level knight of the crown to do something or visa versa?
#2 zombiegleemax May 05, 2007 18:55:22	Thats correct. It's just like in the military. A Lt. with only a year under his belt can order a Sgt. Major with 18 years under his belt to do almost anything. But there is still a certain amount of respect that needs to be there.
#3 darthsylver May 06, 2007 6:46:11	Well this was true during 2e publications, but it appears that the rank structure has changed. Pg. 44 shows that knight's (regardless of order) ranking is derived from his status in his knighthood as well as the number of tropps under his command. For instance a marshall of the crown is the same rank as a marshall of the rose and both command a shield (approx 2,000 men) sized unit. Now according to pg. 45 this rank structure is the same as that placed by Vinas Solamnus. So where knights were outranked by knights of other orders (DL 2E) apparently was not how Vinas envisioned it, and was probably a sign of the corruption or degradation of the knighthood after the cataclysm. The only time a knight is outranked by another knight due to his order is the rank of postulant knight fro the crown, and this is only because the other orders do not have this rank as it is the first rank a knight holds when he joins the knighthood.
#4 cam_banks May 06, 2007 7:59:32	For the most part, your assignment in the field determines whether you outrank somebody else. An experienced, highly-decorated Crown Knight commander can outrank most Rose Knights. Socially, however, there are many occasions where the title of Rose Knight will place you on a higher level than Sword or Crown Knights. Lord Knights of any order will always outrank the lower-ranking knights, too, since they are nobility (and not just knights, who are technically part of the aristocracy, but not nobles.) Cheers, Cam
#5 zombiegleemax May 06, 2007 8:06:57	Thanks for clearing that up.
#6 zombiegleemax May 06, 2007 8:10:44	How do the Kingfishers tie in then? Any knight can order tehm around?
#7 darthsylver May 06, 2007 8:16:10	Well they are the auxiliary and not really full-fledged knights of Solamnia, so I would say yes.
#8 zombiegleemax May 06, 2007 8:31:30	Poor Kingfishers.
#9 darthsylver May 06, 2007 9:16:00	Yes but as we said in the navy, "You choose the rate (job), you live the fate." Basically they chose it. Actually this is one of the things that I am considering in the future campaign, I mean after years of service (if they still serve in the auxiliary) it would be kinda unfair to them wouldn't it. I mean after all, the empire finally brings in force-users and requires the emperors guards to be force-users, so who knows.
#10 zombiegleemax May 06, 2007 9:34:34	I dont think that they would ever be grandmaster or anything like that though.
#11 darthsylver May 06, 2007 9:50:04	You could be right there, but who knows.
#12 zombiegleemax May 06, 2007 10:13:04	If Coryn could gain like 15 levels in her Test than anything is possible.
#13 zombiegleemax May 06, 2007 15:40:00	For the most part, your assignment in the field determines whether you outrank somebody else. An experienced, highly-decorated Crown Knight commander can outrank most Rose Knights. Socially, however, there are many occasions where the title of Rose Knight will place you on a higher level than Sword or Crown Knights. Lord Knights of any order will always outrank the lower-ranking knights, too, since they are nobility (and not just knights, who are technically part of the aristocracy, but not nobles.) Cheers, Cam Man, That new Emperor of Solamnia should fix up the ranks. It must be a mess of who salutes who around there. I feel really sorry for the band new Knight of the Crown Privates.. they must be saluting everything that moves in a castle.
#14 zombiegleemax May 06, 2007 17:41:13	Except for the poor Kingfishers.
#15 cam_banks May 06, 2007 17:54:36	A Kingfisher assigned to a command duty would outrank other knights stationed there. As I said, it's all a matter of your assignment. The Kingfishers are addressed as "Sir" and given all of the same rights and privileges as a Solamnic Knight, but they are not part of the three Orders, so they're lumped in with the Auxiliary. In Price of Courage, I have a Kingfisher named Sir Haley Copperclasp stationed at Castle Eastwatch. He commands a small group of Auxiliary forces as well as a few green Knights, but among the castle's other lords and officers, he's kind of low on the totem pole. Cheers, Cam
#16 zombiegleemax May 06, 2007 20:37:01	Except for the poor Kingfishers. Yeah I guess they would be like the ROTC of the military world. >.<
#17 zombiegleemax May 06, 2007 21:14:59	So what about knights, like PCS who might not have "official orders" but who are kind of knight errants, going around doing good things, keeping in touch with what circles they can, how do they fall into the schema of things?
#18 darthsylver May 06, 2007 22:57:13	I would say that they are around the rank of sergeant, as those knights who have the of steward (or subcaptain) are assigned to a unit and therefore on offical orders to be with that unit. So basically if you do not have a command then you would only be able to hold the rank of sergeant. At least this is my understanding, of course the book does not exactly say this, so it is all speculation.
#19 zombiegleemax May 07, 2007 0:58:07	What sayeth Mr. Banks on this question?
#20 cam_banks May 07, 2007 8:34:23	What sayeth Mr. Banks on this question? All Solamnic Knights are part of some unit or another. There shouldn't be any real "free agents." If there are some who don't seem to be attached to a circle, then in all likelihood they're going to have to deal with being outranked in every Solamnic circle they get to unless they've earned the title of Lord Knight at some point. Crown Knights, especially, will have this problem. A Sword Knight will be given more status, and a Rose Knight even more, but if the unit commander at a Solamnic circle says for a PC knight to jump, the PC knight better ask what the DC is. Cheers, Cam
#21 zombiegleemax May 07, 2007 18:24:13	Could they take command of a post if necessary? Say they were the ranking knight left after a fight or something?
#22 darthsylver May 07, 2007 19:52:59	I don't know. I would think that they are like warrant officers in the military. They can command enlisted ranks (non-knights) but not other knights. That would be my decision.
#23 zombiegleemax May 07, 2007 20:32:46	I wonder if it depended on the PRC they were in?
#24 darthsylver May 07, 2007 21:21:04	Why would that matter? Whatever PRC they took, would probably be an arcane spellcaster one and they would still be in the auxiliary.
#25 cam_banks May 08, 2007 1:19:24	Could they take command of a post if necessary? Say they were the ranking knight left after a fight or something? Sure. They'd probably want a new commander to get there as soon as possible, of course. Remember, they're still knights, even if they're also officially members of the Orders of High Sorcery. They outrank men-at-arms and enlisted soldiers. If they're also the most experienced knight left at the post, they'd be able to assume command. Cheers, Cam
#26 zombiegleemax May 08, 2007 7:28:27	I really like the Kingfishers and am working on one in one in the AOM campaign I am in.
#27 true_atlantean May 10, 2007 6:13:08	What about age as a factor to rank? I recall that Tanis used that one in the defence of Palanthas during the Legends trilogy to take control of the defence effort. I also remember laughing out loud when I read it - one of the few times a gaming novel has elicited that response. Does this (the issue of age) still apply in later years?
#28 zombiegleemax May 10, 2007 9:22:25	That is an interesting concept to ponder.
#29 cam_banks May 10, 2007 15:27:35	What about age as a factor to rank? I recall that Tanis used that one in the defence of Palanthas during the Legends trilogy to take control of the defence effort. I also remember laughing out loud when I read it - one of the few times a gaming novel has elicited that response. Does this (the issue of age) still apply in later years? That's what we call "experience." Cheers, Cam
#30 zombiegleemax May 10, 2007 15:30:28	Or perhaps, in the situation, it was desperation?
#31 darthsylver May 10, 2007 18:22:40	This is probably a minterpretation of the written rule. For instance if the written rules says something like this "If two Knights are of equal rank in title then the age of the knight is the deciding factor of seniority." This can be read in a couple of different ways 1. It is possible to read the literal interpretation and refer to the amount of years that the knights has lived his life. This is how Tanis is reading it. 2. This might refer to the age in the years that the knight has held the title or how long the knight has been a knight. Sort of like "Time in grade" the way the military decides rank. Now I am sure that in the time that Vinas wrote the code and the measure he could not forsee any non-humans becoming a knight of solamnia, so he was probably referring to both the age of the knight as well as how the person had been a knight because in the time of Vinas these two were most likely the same, or at least very cose. This is probably one of the revisions that Gunthar would have instituted, so that these rule was clarified in that it would refer to the number of years the prson was a knight. I mean think about it, you could have a half-elf become a knight and he could conceivably outrank even the highest ranking knight the very day of his induction into the knighthood. Wait, this has already happened. I think in this instance Tanis was simply trying to get Gunthar to realise that only Tanis had the necesary protection to confront Lord Soth, he didn't really mean to take command of the knights away from Lord Gunthar, he was actualy trying to protect him.
#32 zombiegleemax May 10, 2007 19:52:48	I think so as well.
#33 true_atlantean May 13, 2007 19:33:58	I think in this instance Tanis was simply trying to get Gunthar to realise that only Tanis had the necesary protection to confront Lord Soth, he didn't really mean to take command of the knights away from Lord Gunthar, he was actualy trying to protect him. I certainly couldn't agree more. It was one of those neat situations where Tanis was able figuratively turn the tables on those who kept insisting he take up responsibility he didn't want, and at the same time do something good. It's what heroes do :D I'd interprete the age rule as the number of years served within the ranks of the knighthood, rather than straight chronological age. Incidently, one point you raised was that Vinas probably didn't imagine the day when non-humns would be knighted. Whilst humans obviously make up the majority of knights, are there figures anywhere as to the demi-human representation? Are there any of the 'core' races that are forbidden to join (apart from kender)? I'd prefer to see the KOS as a human-half-elven organisation only.
#34 darthsylver May 13, 2007 23:50:35	Originally posted by True_Atlantean I'd prefer to see the KOS as a human-half-elven organisation only. This is precisely what it is. While in DLCS the race requirement was either eliminated or simply left off due to printing error, this has been corrected with Knightly Orders of Ansalon. Now the race requirement is either human, or having a human parent. So while technically this leaves the door open to half-elves, half-ogres, and half-kender, the only one I see even standing a chance of being "accepted" as a knight (and even then maybe not as an equal) would be the half-elf.
#35 zombiegleemax May 14, 2007 7:36:08	Darth, please define what you mean by "accepted". I know what the word means but am wondering what you are meaning by it.
#36 darthsylver May 14, 2007 20:42:28	accepted = allowed, in this instance
#37 zombiegleemax May 15, 2007 6:17:02	Okay. I dont see many half kender in general, much less in the Knights.
#38 sylian May 16, 2007 14:45:11	Half-dwarves would also qualify, eh? ;)
#39 zombiegleemax May 16, 2007 18:11:48	As far as Half-Dwarves go I am sure the Knights would accept one pretty easily. They would just be exceptinaly stout and hairy humans... As far as Half-Kender go, depending on if they took more after their human side then kender I am sure they could pass as a half-elf and qualify. I doubt they would ever ever allow a Half-Ogre in.
#40 cam_banks May 16, 2007 19:51:48	Races of Ansalon features rules for half-dwarves,half-gnomes, half-goblins, half-kender, half-elves, and half-ogres. All would be potential Solamnic Knights. Cheers, Cam
#41 zombiegleemax May 16, 2007 22:19:03	What about half-Cams?:D
#42 zombiegleemax May 18, 2007 15:00:10	Races of Ansalon features rules for half-dwarves,half-gnomes, half-goblins, half-kender, half-elves, and half-ogres. All would be potential Solamnic Knights. Cheers, Cam I always thought Half-Dwarves where scottish humans...
#43 zombiegleemax May 18, 2007 19:59:23	Have their ever been half-dwarves in the books?