Examining his original spell collection and assorted published info, he seems to have veered away from Necromancy as a school. To put that into the Character Class Generator Software (3.0) Is it possible that Bargle has Necromancy as a restricted School?
Does the idea that Bargle doesnt dable in the necromantic arts say something about his personality. There are lots of others who dable in the undead, yet he prefers (as exampled in the castle Mistamere encounter) living statues...
Is it possible that he is infact chaotic neutral rather than chaotic evil?
Maybe he doesn't dabble in necromancy because he prefers living bodies to play with.
No doubt he is now actually learning spells (15th level last time I heard lol) but he is concentrating on improving the classes he already has, to branch out to a new skill may take too much effort for him?
Havard
evil. Doubles seem to be an interesting signature piece for Bargle, Living statues, mirror images, that nephew of his in Ierendi. Deceit and misdirection would seem to be his stock in trade. Besides I kind of picture Bargle as being a bit too lame for the really hardcore evils such as necromancy or demonology. He should always be slightly wimpy, preferring to run and save his skin rather than have the guts to pledge his soul to Undying Darkness
Just because you aren't a necromancer doesn't mean you can't be thoroughly
evil. Doubles seem to be an interesting signature piece for Bargle, Living statues, mirror images, that nephew of his in Ierendi. Deceit and misdirection would seem to be his stock in trade. Besides I kind of picture Bargle as being a bit too lame for the really hardcore evils such as necromancy or demonology. He should always be slightly wimpy, preferring to run and save his skin rather than have the guts to pledge his soul to Undying Darkness
You know you've hit the nail on the head there!
I get the impression Bargle is a coniving, cowardly yet dangerous opponent!
He'll gladly send a fire ball into the midst of a skirmish, even if it means killing many of his own minions in the proccess if it means he can get an easy win. I dont believe however he would place himself in any kind of jepordy without having back up AND at least one or two good escape avenues ready. Hence the reason he has survived so long...
You know you've hit the nail on the head there!
I get the impression Bargle is a coniving, cowardly yet dangerous opponent!
He'll gladly send a fire ball into the midst of a skirmish, even if it means killing many of his own minions in the proccess if it means he can get an easy win. I dont believe however he would place himself in any kind of jepordy without having back up AND at least one or two good escape avenues ready. Hence the reason he has survived so long...
For those of you familar with the Baldur's Gate games, I always think of Bargle when Edwin is around- similar type of n'er-do-well evildoer. To lazy, unfocused, incompetent or unambitious to really be any good at being evil.
That said, I don't think that it makes him any less evil in any way, shape, or form. He's a pretty thoroughly and unrepentantly despicable bastich. He murders for profit and personal gain and he willingly serves the whims of a similarly black-hearted character- whom he also sells out as soon as things look grim for him. Not to mention the experimentation on living beings, and the murder of those apprentices who show potential of equalling or surpassing the master.
There is probably something to the fact that he chose to take essentially a "cushy" Court Wizard job rather than go out on his own and build a power base exclusively to himself. He does seem to be on the lazier-than-not side of things (or, to put it more mildly, he prefers to have things handed to him than work for them himself).
That said, I don't think that it makes him any less evil in any way, shape, or form. He's a pretty thoroughly and unrepentantly despicable bastich. He murders for profit and personal gain and he willingly serves the whims of a similarly black-hearted character- whom he also sells out as soon as things look grim for him. Not to mention the experimentation on living beings, and the murder of those apprentices who show potential of equalling or surpassing the master.
Don't get me wrong, I do think he is thoroughly evil. He's just not as dangerously evil on a grand scale like the Master of Hule. Relatively speaking, he's a lightweight.
Traladaran/Karamekian Wizards
Restricted School (Necromancy)
Just because you aren't a necromancer doesn't mean you can't be thoroughly evil.
and just because you're a necromancer wouldn't necessarily mean that you are thoroughly evil.
Doubles seem to be an interesting signature piece for Bargle, Living statues, mirror images, that nephew of his in Ierendi. Deceit and misdirection would seem to be his stock in trade. Besides I kind of picture Bargle as being a bit too lame for the really hardcore evils such as necromancy or demonology. He should always be slightly wimpy, preferring to run and save his skin rather than have the guts to pledge his soul to Undying Darkness
yeah I think he's a bit more into doubles and constructs than zombies and ghouls, and also fireball's and magic missiles and other good things like that.
Now in the original basic book encounter with Bargle, there is a moment when he charms your fighter and suggests that you both leave on account of the undead. This suggests some displeasure toward the Necromantic, so is it possible that the adversion to the school of Necromancy is a Cultural aspect of Wizards from a Traladaran/Karamekian Background?
Traladaran/Karamekian Wizards
Restricted School (Necromancy)
It sounded to me more like an aversion to dying gruesomely by ghouls.
Although the evil (chaotic) cleric in the Expert rulebook using undead as lumberjacks sounds like something bargle would do.
It sounded to me more like an aversion to dying gruesomely by ghouls.
What is Bargle's Stats?
Bargle the Infamous
AC1020: Age 58(Apparent age 32), 6’1” 145lb
Bargle has been travelling since the fall of the Black Eagle Barony in AC1010. He spent time in Alphatia, then the flying city of Serraine where he assisted the grey front takeover.
He is an evil Villain with an indulgent love of the good life. He has no problem with boiling the brains of his best and brightest apprentices just to get a potion of Youth, yet feigns civility.
These days he wears Alphatian Spidersilk (dyed Black and cut in the style of old Traladaran Nobility)
Chaotic Evil Human Wizard Level 20,
STR 9, DEX 17, CON 10, INT 20, WIS 10, CHA 15, AC21,
HP61, REF +9, FORT +6, WILL +12, INIT +7, MELEE +9/+4,
RANGED +13/+8, ATTACK +14, SPEED 30
Languages: ©Thyatian, Traladaran, Goblin, Alphatian
FEATS: Scribe Scroll, Ambidexterity, Combat Casting, Improved Init., Run, Track, Focus (dagger), Finesse (dagger), Improved Critical (dagger), Brew Potion, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring
SKILLS: Appraise (cc) (15/10), Concentration (21/21), Intimidate (cc) (12/10), Knowledge-Arcana (15/10), Ride (cc) (13/10), Spell-craft (28/23), Knowledge-Geography (15/10), Knowledge-History (15/10),
Knowledge-Nobility (15/10), Disguise (cc) (12/10), Wilderness Lore (cc) (10/10)
RESTRICTED SCHOOL (NECROMANCY)
Spellbooks
1-charm person, comprehend languages, hold portal, identify, magic missile, protection from good, shield, sleep, floating disk, ventriloquism
2-invisibility, knock, locate object, minor image
3-dispel magic, fireball, fly, lightning bolt
4-charm monster, ice storm, wall of ice, polymorph other
5-telekinisis, teleport, wall of iron, wall of stone
6-antimagic field, disintegrate, greater dispel, veil
7-mass invisibility, phase door, reverse gravity, statue
8-mass charm, maze, polymorph any object, symbol
9-gate, imprisonment, meteor swarm, power word kill, prismatic sphere, shape change, time-stop, wish
Magic Items
Bracers of Armour (+8),
Dagger+2/WIZARD BANE (+2d6 vs. wizards)
As to the general attitude of Traldarans to necromancy, you could look at their tendency to make vampiric magic users, just look at Sulescu and the Boldavians.
Yet all the known undead (including one hiding in a keep near Luln) were considered to have dabled in forbidden magics. So necromancy is a forbidden magic amongst the Traladarans. The question becomes is Bargle Traladaran? Is his choice of spells limited by his own beliefs or are they defined by the peoples he took his magic from?
Is Bargle Evil? If the use of necromancy is pariah-class evil what lesser evil is Bargle? He is selfish and self serving, which is covered by chaotic and yet if there are some limits to which he wont go, that more likely puts him in the chaotic neutral region of Bad, self-serving, and mercenary.
Is Bargle Evil? If the use of necromancy is pariah-class evil what lesser evil is Bargle? He is selfish and self serving, which is covered by chaotic and yet if there are some limits to which he wont go, that more likely puts him in the chaotic neutral region of Bad, self-serving, and mercenary.
Again, I'd say that being a murderer puts him in the distinctly Evil category. If you want to pin it down more than that, I'd probably put him as Neutral Evil, given his proclivities.
Make no mistake about it, though- the guy's evil.
As to his attitude to necromancy, it could just be a lack of opportunity, he's quite charming and presumably uses that to sidle up to other magic-users before backstabbing them and stealing their books, maybe the necromantic types don't fall for his schmooze.
Alternatively it might be from a bad encounter with the undead in the past, prehaps when he was younger he killed someone only to later see them reanimate and that kind of freaked him,e.g. "I killed him. He should stay dead!".
Or maybe he's a closet necromantic but whilst he works for the Baron he has to hide it to avoid offending his employers Thyatian sensibilities. Anyway for which ever reason he doesn't use necromancy, it could be turned into a plot device, prehaps PC's ally with neutral (or evil) undead to defeat him. Prehaps they discover a secret spell tome belonging to him, when his minions start to chase them they presume Bargle just wants his book back, but in truth he's afraid of being blackmailed.
We don't know whether Bargle's a Traladaran or Thyatian but his knowledge of Traladaran legends does indicate the former. But the Traladaran attitude to necromancy is somewhat suspect. I don't think it's openly stated anywhere, but many Mystaran cultures seem to generally frown on it (excluding the Thothians), whilst the Traladarans have a suspiciously high number of magic using vampires.
They're not just tolerated, they're a chunk of the nobility so I wouldn't say that they're more anti-necromantic than other cultures, quite the opposite in fact.
"...Born in Specularum. Bargle grew up in the streets of that city and becameleader of a gang of toughs.At age 14 he killed a man....He appears to be thirty years of age.."
If he is in his 30s at the time the gazetteer was set (AC1000) then that would tie in with the date that the duke initially came to Traladra. I would guestimate that he was Traladran (hence the poor background in belonging to a street gang?) It is distinctly possibly that his parents were poor Thyatias who came over with the Duke but the fact that he tries to clash (albeit only fashion wise) with the Baron may indicate a distaste/ hatred for Thyatian nobility.
I would definately put him down as a ne'er do well Traladran mugger turned enchanter.
Roger
I've always considered Bargle as the classic stereotype of CE... if not the definition itself...
IIRC he was CE in K:KoA. At least that was the alignment I gave him for my 3.5e conversion.
Regards
Gary
AC976: Street Thug...........picks up wizard by mugging an apprentice.
AC992: Wizard L2-3...........encountered in caves near Threshold? Kills Aleena the Cleric.
AC995: Wizard L5-7...........hold up in castle Mistamere (potion and spell research)
AC997: Wizard L9-11.........becomes Wizard to Baron Black Eagle.
AC1000: Wizard L13..........Currently Wizard to Black Eagle. apparent age 30/real age 38
AC1011: Wizard L15..........deserts the Black Eagle Barony at its fall
AC1013: Wizard L15-17.....shows up in Alphatia
AC1016: Wizard L17..........involved in fall of Serraine, the flying city
Thanks for the catch Hyrieus...
...... learned enough about the principles of magic....perform the necessary research independent of needing a mentor.
Research? doesnt that involve labourious hard work and dogged determination? Something I suspect is lacking in our esteemed friend Mr Bargle.
Edit:
Just what is Bargles surname?? Has any one any ideas on this? (Not that it matters, just curious)
Given his background, Bargle is probably his only name, and not even his given one (which he might not know).
Ive mentioned this before, but IMC his name is actually Bargellus. Bargle is a nickname given to him by his enemies.
This name indicates that he is a Thyatian or at least of mixed origins. Regardless, last names will usually indicate family ties. Bargle I suspect has none. He is likely an orphan raised on the streets. Bargle from Specularum might be what he called himself once, since IIRC that's where he grew up.
BTW is this fall of Serraine thing something from yellowdingo's campaign? I cant recall hearing about that anywhere else.
Havard
Just what is Bargles surname??
Bargleson.
BTW is this fall of Serraine thing something from yellowdingo's campaign? I cant recall hearing about that anywhere else.
It's from the Mystaran Almanacs- it's something I put in, actually, since I wanted to explore where he'd been since the fall of Blackrock.
I'd assume that somewhere in that 16 year period he learned enough about the principles of magic on his own that he could perform the necessary research independent of needing a mentor.
It is certainly a personal history that needs fleshing out.
Any ideas for the Journals of Bargle of Marilenev?
It is certainly a personal history that needs fleshing out.
Any ideas for the Journals of Bargle of Marilenev?
I wrote a short story about Bargle and his apprentice Sverdlov where I introduced the concept of the Order of the Black Eagle, a secret organization formed after the fall of the Black Eagle barony. Bargle and the Baron are still working together and certainly up to no good.
The other idea was having Sverdlov take over the School of Magecraft and turning it into a place of dark learning after the mysterious disappearance of Master Terari (he left to search for Alphatia).
Havard
The other idea was having Sverdlov take over the School of Magecraft and turning it into a place of dark learning after the mysterious disappearance of Master Terari (he left to search for Alphatia).
Excellent idea! A great contrast to the GSoM in Glantri.
Roger
Excellent idea! A great contrast to the GSoM in Glantri.
Exactly!
One of my main objections to the Post WotI setting is that it seemed to make some of the countries more bland. Glantri suddenly has Clerics, but no longer is alone in having a well respected school for magic users. Karameikos which used to be low magic now becomes just like everyone else with the School of MageCraft and Alfheim influx. And the great evil presence in the Black Eagle Barony is also gone.
In the case of Clerics in Glantri, I decided to make that temporary. With Karameikos, I don't want to simply remove the school, but instead make sure it was different. Making it a nest of evil also helps fill the gap left when the Black Eagle and Bargle were ousted. Ofcourse, Halag won't stay a place of harmony for long either...
Havard
Ofcourse, Halag won't stay a place of harmony for long either...
I think Halag never was a place of harmony. Once the baronial void became apparent, noone was put in place to fill it. While, I suppose that the barony reverted back to the crown, but Karameikos certainly had it's resources tied and would have been unable to take control of the inevitable chaos.
10,000 Beaten and downtrodden peasants and slaves suddenly free, without bounds, intermingled by 3,000 monsters without a leader. The barony becomes a den of cut-throats. Law by the blade becomes the norm, and a bitter faction-war between formerly-opressed Traladaran clans, ruled by competing petty warlords.
Roger
I think Halag never was a place of harmony. Once the baronial void became apparent, noone was put in place to fill it. While, I suppose that the barony reverted back to the crown, but Karameikos certainly had it's resources tied and would have been unable to take control of the inevitable chaos.
10,000 Beaten and downtrodden peasants and slaves suddenly free, without bounds, intermingled by 3,000 monsters without a leader. The barony becomes a den of cut-throats. Law by the blade becomes the norm, and a bitter faction-war between formerly-opressed Traladaran clans, ruled by competing petty warlords.
Roger
The Farming Peasants are going to be worse off, the riff-raff will probably boost with all those Hin Pirates and unmonitored slavers...Good luck getting the crop in.
They need a new baron. A great Baron. Any volunteers? Lets see that Character Description.
How about:
Devor Mandrazy (Neutral Thief L 14/Merchant L 8): Gifted financier and money lender, quite wealthy (1.3 million gp in letters of credit), Thinks a complete revamp of Halav is needed. Now three small village ports are established along the coast and the forested region is harvested for ship building. Farmers are no longer taxed. They can operate taxfree for the first five years of his reign.
The town of Fort Doom is handed over to the Monastary on the hill (run by his Brother- a cleric)above it so the monastary will be collecting the rent.
The Mandrazys are from Luln so they are local.
Devor runs his government from Bargle's mansion by the Sea (located on the southern part of Halav's Coast) using an army of Thug Baliffs. He profits from selling magic items to Pirates.
Havard
However, if the players weren't interested, then yes, one of the royal boys would be a great substitute.
Roger
Good suggestions from the both of you. I'm not sure who first came up with the idea, but I always liked Halag eventually becoming the domain of the younger of the Karameikos brothers. At the King's death (or abdication of the War in Flames scenario is somehow used) the three siblings enter a bitter conflict. With the untimely death of Devon Hyraksos, princess Adriana takes over the Halav mansion becoming a new Lady Magda, as bitter as the former one. The younger brother (Valen or Justin, I mix them up) becomes a sort of new Black Eagle and the older brother becomes the King, but as his father before him, his love for his family leaves him unable to deal with the evil under his very nose...
Havard
I'm thinking that would have application at he Kingdom Level...Justin returns from his position as Governor of the Hinterlands with the Thyatian Empire having turned things around in the Hinterland Colonies.
VALEN is the Factor for the Karamekian Secret Police, That makes him "the Other King of Karameikos".
The Emperor of Thyatis notices a power vaccuum in Karameikos (real or imagined) returns Justin to Karameikos and backs him as the New (and shortlived) position of King of Karameikos-eventually becoming the Archduke of Karameikos (once again embraced by the Empire).
Emperor of Thyatis: "I am concerned that you have not ceeded the throne to its entitled..."
Queen Adriana: "If We do not ceed the throne?"
Emperor of Thyatis: "Then must be war."
My idea of baronial strife comes from the idea that the place will be left vaccant for a PC to claim as his own (possibly forcibly, with or without noble/royal support) and/or to deal with and thusly be awarded the Baronial title.
Roger
A Kingdom Divided
The Emperor backs Justin Karameikos for title to the throne and a civil war ensues. The Thyatians push the rival throne east of the kings road.
After Valen personally assassinates the Emperor and his family-and dies for the feat, The Empire collapses becoming a Theocracy (The Holy Thyatian Empire). The Theocracy of Thyatis declares the Kingsroad Treaty to separate the Foreign Duchy of Hyraksos from the Thyatian Archduchy of Karameikos.
The Archduchy of Karameikos (The Thyatian East)
The Archduchy of Karameikos (ruled by Justin Karameikos) -a Thyatian Territory that ends at the river Cruth putting Threshold, Penhaligon, Kelvin and the eastlands in the Archduchy (along with the capital). Along the West of the river a wall of Loyal Thyatian Barons from VERGE to WESTERN MARILENEV. The region is flooded with Thyatians pushing Traladarans off their land (again).
The Duchy of Hyraksos (The Traladaran West)
Despite a Treaty, Everything west of the Shield Barons all the way to the Shires becomes the disputed Traladaran Territories. Functioning from a Castle built on the Ruins near Luln (luln becomes the new regional capital and its current knight is removed and granted the Black Eagle barony) the Queen and King (Now again Duke and Duchess), rule the Duchy of Hyraksos. The Duchy of Hyraksos is crowded with Traladaran Refugees from the East. The region is controlled by assorted Counts and Barons and vast numbers of single 8 mile-hex estates granted to Knights who proved loyal to the rule of Adriana and Devon Hyraksos during the War with justin and the Empire.