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Avangions vs Dragons

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Mulhull
May 08, 2007 17:52:41 So, based on thier abilities and powers (and disregarding the myriad scenarios which can come out of what spells they can memorize and use against each other) which advanced being fully metamorphed has more advantages?

Someone once on another board said that dragons would own Avangions because they add insult to injury with thier spells, that the dragon would take the life energy out of the avangion to power a fireball thrown at him. I'm not sure what preservers and defilers says, but according to Dragon Kings, 10th level defiler spells and only 10th level defiler spells do life draining damage to living creatures, and even then it's only 1d6 per Dragon Level over 20th. This does have a high maximum, but it's rare to roll all 6's and get a solid 60 hitpoints of damage. There's also the defiling stasis spell in Dragon Kings, which pushes defiler damage away from the Avangion

As for the fireball itself, the Avangion has a permanent globe of invulnerability as an innate ability, the fireball goes poof when it hits it. Even if it was a delayed blast fireball instead, the Avangion gets it's good magic resistance (spell resistance in 3E) and is entitled to a saving throw for half.

Also, would avangions and dragons not need spellbooks anymore? A dragon's spellbook would be too small for it to hold and read, and an Avangion can't hold any physical objects or make any physical attacks. I kind of thought they'd now get thier spells intuitively like an archlich does.

Also, with an avangion, I thought of giving it a magical/psionic attack similiar to a pyromancer psion's whip of flame or the protoss archon's attack, that it can use if it's psp's are not too low since it can't make any physical attacks. anymore.

A dragon can make physical attacks, and you if you use that rule in the DMG about monsters of certain hit dice being able to hit creatures immune to +1 to +4 weapons it can hit the avangion at lower levels, but not when it is 30th level and requires a +5 weapon to hit
#2
Zardnaar
May 09, 2007 5:29:46 One concern in 3.5 rules I have is a Dragon could quicken a dimension door and make a grapple role on the Avangion. Dragons are stronger and would usually win an opposed dice role. Once grappled its kinda hard to cast spells and manifest powers. Cheesy wayto kill an Avangion?
#3
brun01
May 09, 2007 7:09:50 Well, the avangion add its Int modifier to grapple checks, and if the avangion has its avangion aura ability already, then it would be hard to do it, with the magic circle against evil and ray of enfeeblement effect it gives.
#4
Mulhull
May 09, 2007 20:06:33
One concern in 3.5 rules I have is a Dragon could quicken a dimension door and make a grapple role on the Avangion. Dragons are stronger and would usually win an opposed dice role. Once grappled its kinda hard to cast spells and manifest powers. Cheesy wayto kill an Avangion?

Can the avangion be grappled though? I thought it's made of energy now, it requires magical weapons to hit, I'd think the dragon would go right through it.
#5
Zardnaar
May 10, 2007 0:49:05
Can the avangion be grappled though? I thought it's made of energy now, it requires magical weapons to hit, I'd think the dragon would go right through it.

its an Aberration and IIRC isn't incorporal so yes it can be grappled. I think IMC I'll just give them a permanent freedom of movement effect. Brains vs Brawn so to speak.
#6
Mulhull
May 10, 2007 17:14:22
its an Aberration and IIRC isn't incorporal so yes it can be grappled. I think IMC I'll just give them a permanent freedom of movement effect. Brains vs Brawn so to speak.

Not sure what aberation means in the context you're using, and it never does specifically say in Dragon Kings whether it is incorporeal or not. I'm leaning towards the former, as it seems like it's made of light/energy or something (it radiates it after all) but it does say fully metamorphed it requires a +5 weapon to hit.

I suppose you twist a creature's arm that requires a +1 (or +anything) weapon to hit behind it's back, but not break it with a maneuver or cause it any pain or discomfort whatsoever.
#7
Zardnaar
May 10, 2007 17:43:53 Athas.orgs versionis the Aberration subtype IIRC and inorporal creatures can't be grappled if memory serves me right.

If its and Aberration and incorporal it can't be grappled if memory serves me right.
#8
kdyal
May 10, 2007 17:50:29 Athas.org's take on the Avangion is not incorporeal, but that's what makes the most sense to me...
#9
cnahumck
May 10, 2007 22:21:36 If you want to be incorporeal, just make it a part of your epic spells. When you want it, do it. Just make sure that you also make temporary corporeality as part of your progression too.
#10
Zardnaar
May 12, 2007 7:31:26 Big glowing butterfly screams celestial to me rather than incorporal. Just because it glows and is delicate looking doesn't make it incorporal.

At the level of magic we're talking about here I'm 90% sure whatever one wins initiative will win the fight via some sort of timestop/temporal aceleration and/or shapechange cheese thrown in as well.
#11
kalthandrix
May 12, 2007 9:00:32
Athas.org's take on the Avangion is not incorporeal, but that's what makes the most sense to me...

The 2e version of the avangion was never incorpooreal either - so why would the athas.org version do this?
#12
zombiegleemax
May 12, 2007 13:51:25
Cheesy wayto kill an Avangion?

Not at all. If the avangion does not take proper precautions, then it deserves to die. They are all smart enough to realise their limitations and the strengths of their foes.
#13
Zardnaar
May 12, 2007 17:20:26
Not at all. If the avangion does not take proper precautions, then it deserves to die. They are all smart enough to realise their limitations and the strengths of their foes.

Its rather difficult to survive if you get hit with Mordenkainens Disjunction followed through with timestop cheese. Rod of Quicken spells , disjunction, timestop,forcecage, acid cloud, another timestop if needed and various other spells are usually more or less an auto kill unless you have spells yourself and even then it can be difficult,.

Mordenkainens Disjunction, Gate, Timestop and Shapechange are generally regarded as the most powerful lvl 9 spells. Wish and Meteor Swarm are average at best just for a comparison. Disjunction gets rid of all your spells on you and if you have a low save will destroy a good chunk of your magic items as well.
Try telling that to a lvl 20 fighter who blows a few will saves and loses most of his equipment.
#14
kdyal
May 12, 2007 17:57:31 It was not in the crunch, but it was all over the fluff, combined with its +5 weapon invulnerability. "A being of pure light..." IIRC.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mulhull May 08, 2007 17:52:41	So, based on thier abilities and powers (and disregarding the myriad scenarios which can come out of what spells they can memorize and use against each other) which advanced being fully metamorphed has more advantages? Someone once on another board said that dragons would own Avangions because they add insult to injury with thier spells, that the dragon would take the life energy out of the avangion to power a fireball thrown at him. I'm not sure what preservers and defilers says, but according to Dragon Kings, 10th level defiler spells and only 10th level defiler spells do life draining damage to living creatures, and even then it's only 1d6 per Dragon Level over 20th. This does have a high maximum, but it's rare to roll all 6's and get a solid 60 hitpoints of damage. There's also the defiling stasis spell in Dragon Kings, which pushes defiler damage away from the Avangion As for the fireball itself, the Avangion has a permanent globe of invulnerability as an innate ability, the fireball goes poof when it hits it. Even if it was a delayed blast fireball instead, the Avangion gets it's good magic resistance (spell resistance in 3E) and is entitled to a saving throw for half. Also, would avangions and dragons not need spellbooks anymore? A dragon's spellbook would be too small for it to hold and read, and an Avangion can't hold any physical objects or make any physical attacks. I kind of thought they'd now get thier spells intuitively like an archlich does. Also, with an avangion, I thought of giving it a magical/psionic attack similiar to a pyromancer psion's whip of flame or the protoss archon's attack, that it can use if it's psp's are not too low since it can't make any physical attacks. anymore. A dragon can make physical attacks, and you if you use that rule in the DMG about monsters of certain hit dice being able to hit creatures immune to +1 to +4 weapons it can hit the avangion at lower levels, but not when it is 30th level and requires a +5 weapon to hit
#2 Zardnaar May 09, 2007 5:29:46	One concern in 3.5 rules I have is a Dragon could quicken a dimension door and make a grapple role on the Avangion. Dragons are stronger and would usually win an opposed dice role. Once grappled its kinda hard to cast spells and manifest powers. Cheesy wayto kill an Avangion?
#3 brun01 May 09, 2007 7:09:50	Well, the avangion add its Int modifier to grapple checks, and if the avangion has its avangion aura ability already, then it would be hard to do it, with the magic circle against evil and ray of enfeeblement effect it gives.
#4 Mulhull May 09, 2007 20:06:33	One concern in 3.5 rules I have is a Dragon could quicken a dimension door and make a grapple role on the Avangion. Dragons are stronger and would usually win an opposed dice role. Once grappled its kinda hard to cast spells and manifest powers. Cheesy wayto kill an Avangion? Can the avangion be grappled though? I thought it's made of energy now, it requires magical weapons to hit, I'd think the dragon would go right through it.
#5 Zardnaar May 10, 2007 0:49:05	Can the avangion be grappled though? I thought it's made of energy now, it requires magical weapons to hit, I'd think the dragon would go right through it. its an Aberration and IIRC isn't incorporal so yes it can be grappled. I think IMC I'll just give them a permanent freedom of movement effect. Brains vs Brawn so to speak.
#6 Mulhull May 10, 2007 17:14:22	its an Aberration and IIRC isn't incorporal so yes it can be grappled. I think IMC I'll just give them a permanent freedom of movement effect. Brains vs Brawn so to speak. Not sure what aberation means in the context you're using, and it never does specifically say in Dragon Kings whether it is incorporeal or not. I'm leaning towards the former, as it seems like it's made of light/energy or something (it radiates it after all) but it does say fully metamorphed it requires a +5 weapon to hit. I suppose you twist a creature's arm that requires a +1 (or +anything) weapon to hit behind it's back, but not break it with a maneuver or cause it any pain or discomfort whatsoever.
#7 Zardnaar May 10, 2007 17:43:53	Athas.orgs versionis the Aberration subtype IIRC and inorporal creatures can't be grappled if memory serves me right. If its and Aberration and incorporal it can't be grappled if memory serves me right.
#8 kdyal May 10, 2007 17:50:29	Athas.org's take on the Avangion is not incorporeal, but that's what makes the most sense to me...
#9 cnahumck May 10, 2007 22:21:36	If you want to be incorporeal, just make it a part of your epic spells. When you want it, do it. Just make sure that you also make temporary corporeality as part of your progression too.
#10 Zardnaar May 12, 2007 7:31:26	Big glowing butterfly screams celestial to me rather than incorporal. Just because it glows and is delicate looking doesn't make it incorporal. At the level of magic we're talking about here I'm 90% sure whatever one wins initiative will win the fight via some sort of timestop/temporal aceleration and/or shapechange cheese thrown in as well.
#11 kalthandrix May 12, 2007 9:00:32	Athas.org's take on the Avangion is not incorporeal, but that's what makes the most sense to me... The 2e version of the avangion was never incorpooreal either - so why would the athas.org version do this?
#12 zombiegleemax May 12, 2007 13:51:25	Cheesy wayto kill an Avangion? Not at all. If the avangion does not take proper precautions, then it deserves to die. They are all smart enough to realise their limitations and the strengths of their foes.
#13 Zardnaar May 12, 2007 17:20:26	Not at all. If the avangion does not take proper precautions, then it deserves to die. They are all smart enough to realise their limitations and the strengths of their foes. Its rather difficult to survive if you get hit with Mordenkainens Disjunction followed through with timestop cheese. Rod of Quicken spells , disjunction, timestop,forcecage, acid cloud, another timestop if needed and various other spells are usually more or less an auto kill unless you have spells yourself and even then it can be difficult,. Mordenkainens Disjunction, Gate, Timestop and Shapechange are generally regarded as the most powerful lvl 9 spells. Wish and Meteor Swarm are average at best just for a comparison. Disjunction gets rid of all your spells on you and if you have a low save will destroy a good chunk of your magic items as well. Try telling that to a lvl 20 fighter who blows a few will saves and loses most of his equipment.
#14 kdyal May 12, 2007 17:57:31	It was not in the crunch, but it was all over the fluff, combined with its +5 weapon invulnerability. "A being of pure light..." IIRC.