Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cthulhudrew May 09, 2007 13:53:04	I know we've discussed the mechanics and such of gun/smokepowder in the SC before, but I'm curious as to what everyone thinks of it in terms of whether it is necessary to maintain the flavor/feel of the Savage Coast or not?
#2 gawain_viii May 09, 2007 14:01:57	Not having played there, and only having breifly read it, I wouldn't be able to answer conclusively... but by gut feeling is 'yes'. Roger
#3 Traianus_Decius_Aureus May 09, 2007 14:06:52	If playing only in the Savage Coast, I'd say yes. If your campaign is more expansive and/or involves Known Worlders coming and going into the region, I'd say no.
#4 rhialto May 09, 2007 16:03:50	In the original notes for the setting, there was no smoke powder, and Cimarron used a rather quirky kind of repeating hand crossbow - basically what a S&W revolver would have been if they worked on crossbows instead of firearms. Personally, I feel either mode would work equally well. Those low-tech Cimarron six-shooters are certainly in-keeping with the flavour of Mystara, although those who hate Ierendi may also hate the six-shooters. Just don't have smoke powder and the six-shooters in teh same campaign.
#5 Cthulhudrew May 09, 2007 16:04:46	I ask for a variety of reasons, but chief among them is that they weren't present in the original (VotPA) incarnation of the Savage Coast, but were included in the Red Steel expansion, obviously. I don't think it really hurt the Savage Coast not having them in the original incarnation (didn't really make it any different, IMO), but have to admit that I do like them in the current version, with some caveats (scale back on the wheellocks, primarily, and have them only using matchlock weaponry, as well as having their version dependent on the steel seed and vermeil powder, as opposed to more historical versions of gunpowder, which are used elsewhere in the world to a limited extent).
#6 agathokles May 09, 2007 16:06:57	I know we've discussed the mechanics and such of gun/smokepowder in the SC before, but I'm curious as to what everyone thinks of it in terms of whether it is necessary to maintain the flavor/feel of the Savage Coast or not? You can use hand crossbows as in the original (VotPA) version. However, the feeling is obviously quite different -- six-shooters are limited to Cimarron in VotPA, while SC depicts the same lands more than a decade later, with smokepowder common in all the baronies as well as in Bellayne and Renardy. So, it is not essential, but is certainly affects the setting's feel.
#7 wilhelm_ May 10, 2007 2:36:45	Note that even where smokepoweder weapons are not common, hand crossbows are really common. So, in a campaign where the smokepowder does not exist, the other baronies would have pistols of a sort, and Cimarron, that modified hand crossbow. It's funny that now that we do have firearms at Cimarron, the six-shooters are now just shooters, since the wheellock pistol is a singleshot weapon. The western characters of Cimarron should carry a lot or pistols in order to shoot more than once... Other firearms, like matchlock pistols, muskets or even bombards and cannons, aren't mentioned at the SC material, but it's possible (and even likely) that they do exist, even if simply not popular yet.
#8 RobJN May 10, 2007 8:09:18	I have to admit, I prefer the wheellock weaponry over the six-shooter hand crossbow. This is mainly due to the plausability of such weaponry. But I also think that the smokepowder weapons could be laid aside and still keep the flavor of the setting. It seems to me like the whole smokepowder thing only acts as a plot device for keeping Inheritors away from the weapons: Fortunately for most people, this affects only cinnabryl worn by Inheritors, due to the odd interaction between the magical substances and the Inheritors' bodies Darned pesky balance issues. For me, though, the "shoot-em-ups" isn't even the start of the flavor of the Savage Coast. Its the rough-edges of the frontier, the hazy redness that seems to stick to everything, the gnolls, snarling at you from the other side of the boulders, insisting that they "don't need no steenking batches." :P
#9 ewancummins May 28, 2007 20:04:27	I prefer the non-smokepowder, earlier version. Six shooter repeating crossbows were cool! Primitive gunpowder weapons are a poor replacement for repeating pistol crossbows. One shot, then you're out. Have to carry sevveral pistols, preloaded. If you are worried about armor,there are ways of dealing with that. I noticed that the SC is mostly warm and humid. Maybe fewer people wear heavy armor because of rust, risk of heat stroke, weight, and expense. Always the possibility that some cities bar people from walking around all tanked up, as well.
#10 yellowdingo May 28, 2007 23:37:15	I agree on that one. The Decision to introduce gunpowder to the Savage coast seems to be directed towards tying the Spelljammer setting to the Savage coast setting. Mystara seemed on an alternate course. A return to Blacklore Technology (Magic Rayguns) at least until Wrath of the Immortals snuffed out Alphatia and its flying Aircraft Carrier. There is only one mention of Gunpowder anywhere in D&D. THE LOST CITY OF CYNIDICEA in Yalarum. There is a crate of fireworks in the upper pyramid near the entrance. Mind if you dont want Gunpowder, there is Always Davinci's Steam Cannon (or rather Bargle's Steam Cannon if you want to make it difficult for the PCs).
#11 maddog May 29, 2007 11:37:37	Primitive gunpowder weapons are a poor replacement for repeating pistol crossbows. One shot, then you're out. Have to carry sevveral pistols, preloaded. That's what priates liked to do. http://www.cindyvallar.com/blackbeard.jpg --Ray.
#12 gawain_viii May 29, 2007 16:09:23	I'm not sure if smokepowder is essential, certainly some kind of six-shooter substitute would be required, whether a crossbow or flintlock shouldn't matter. The only thing I can think of giving the firearms a bonus is the smokepowder depleating cinabryl, making it a very dangerous tool against Inheritors. Other than that little tidbit, I don't see one side or the other being more essential. Roger
#13 culture20 May 29, 2007 17:09:14	Primitive gunpowder weapons are a poor replacement for repeating pistol crossbows. One shot, then you're out. Have to carry sevveral pistols, preloaded. Which is why they're good for a swashbuckling theme. They endanger armored opponents just enough that most people do without, but after one shot, the user must draw their rapier. En Garde! Feint! Parry! Riposte! The other benefit, already mentioned is that smoke powder works as a threat to inheritors. This is a good balancing feature, and one that doesn't _have_ to use firearms. An incredibly powerful inheritor can be sent running from a child with small smoke-powder filled pieces of paper/cloth throwing them at the inheritor's feet.
#14 rhialto May 30, 2007 10:35:55	Unless you are using d20 Modern's massive damage rules, smokepowder weapons don't really do enough damage to scare anyone more than a decent sword or bow would scare them. They don't really enhance the swashbuckler feel that way.
#15 culture20 May 30, 2007 20:41:28	Except that Smokepowder drains cinabryl on an Inheritor, and if an Inheritor loses his cinabryl this way, he suffers the ability drains and afflictions of _all_ his legacies, which for powerful Inheritors would mean instant death, and for lesser Inheritors, severe ugliness and a few below average stats. And... The smokepowder weapons rules for SC state that armor's effectiveness is reduced versus bullets (and they do another die of damage whenever an 8 or 10 is rolled; a horseman's pistol has a 1/5 chance of doing 9-20+ points of damage, a hand-pistol has a 1/8 chance of doing 9-16+ damage). The knowledge that the firearms exist makes heavier armor less worth the cost in both weight and money. Most adventurers wear light armor or just a breastplate. Less armor makes heavier weapons less necessary, allowing finesse weapons to rise to the fore. The advent of guns (or very high-powered crossbows) brings about common rapier use.
#16 rhialto May 31, 2007 2:10:51	Except that Smokepowder drains cinabryl on an Inheritor, and if an Inheritor loses his cinabryl this way, he suffers the ability drains and afflictions of _all_ his legacies, which for powerful Inheritors would mean instant death, and for lesser Inheritors, severe ugliness and a few below average stats. And... The smokepowder weapons rules for SC state that armor's effectiveness is reduced versus bullets (and they do another die of damage whenever an 8 or 10 is rolled; a horseman's pistol has a 1/5 chance of doing 9-20+ points of damage, a hand-pistol has a 1/8 chance of doing 9-16+ damage). The "exploding dice" effect isn't as big a danger as you might think. For the horseman's pistol, the average is 7.7 damage, after you take that possible extra die into account, and 5.125 damage for the hand pistol. For a one-shot weapon, that is far from scary. I'd be far more concerned about the guy with the greatsword who could hit me every round, than about the guy with a pistol, who can him me once and then has to use a secondary weapon. I'm not too familiar with smokepowder's interaction with cinnabryl, but against mundanes, the rules do not make early firearms sufficiently scary to cause any kind of switch to light armour and rapiers.
#17 havard Jun 01, 2007 14:19:51	Whether you want smokepowder in or not probably has more to do with the visual part of the swashbuckling genre and how you feel about that. I have to say though, that beyond the amusing read of Bruce Heard's Texeiras episode in VotPA I don't care much for the idea of handcrossbows as anything but an assasin's weapon used to deliver poison. Regular crossbows are probably the most reasonable subsititute for smokepowder weapons. I tend to go with blackpowder weapons myself actually... Havard
#18 ewancummins Jun 05, 2007 0:51:55	As I see it, the six shooter crossbows were supposed to be a replacement for revolvers in a fantasy version of the Old West. Cimarron county 'gunslingers' need a multi shot hand weapon, and single shot pistols don't fit the bill, IMO. It's just not the same.
#19 havard Jun 05, 2007 5:46:25	As I see it, the six shooter crossbows were supposed to be a replacement for revolvers in a fantasy version of the Old West. Cimarron county 'gunslingers' need a multi shot hand weapon, and single shot pistols don't fit the bill, IMO. It's just not the same. You are right. I guess my dislike for the whole six shooter crossbows is also related to the fact that beyond the Voyage of the Princess Ark fiction, I don't care much for including gunslingers IMC. I don't mind a general "western" theme to Texeiras, but in a relatively low humour type campaign, gunslingers are hard to incorporate. It all depends on your campaign though. I guess if you want gunslingers, you would have to go with the six shooter crossbows.... Havard
#20 culture20 Jun 05, 2007 15:54:04	My problem with the six-shooter crossbows is that they were slightly too advanced as a concept, and would have easily left the coast for other countries. SC smokepowder has the gotcha of being tied to the curse, so if somone wants a pistol/canon in Thyatis, they'll have to work out blackpowder weapons from the arquebus up.
#21 Traianus_Decius_Aureus Jun 05, 2007 16:14:04	Perhaps we need to make smokepowder weapons worth the effort and expense. I like them more than the repeater hand crossbow (too silly for my taste) and I think they have a great swashbuckling feel to them. In 3E terms, maybe give them a moderate damage and range increment, but a high crit range and crit damage multiplier. Light Exotic (or Martial) Weapon, Damage 1d8 (16-20/x4), Range 20ft, Full round action to reload. With feats, the crit range becomes very wide, and the pistol can pack a great deal of first strike damage. It can easily be used offhand or duel weilded. You could shoot the two low-level minions and then go after the villian with your rapier and main-gauche (sp?).