But I just don't like the the way templars and gladiators became "classes", though built of original rules, I see no need for them to be exist at all as seperate classes any longer.
-It is overly complex and a pain for DMs (as making NPCs in 3rd is a lot of work anyway, non-standard classes just makes it worse), and 3rd ed doesn't require those two "classes" at all.
-A templar is just a cleric who gets spell power from his SK, and sometimes does worship him as a demigod...others are more cycnical.
-Gladiator is just a profession! It is not a class. Barbarian, fighter, ranger, multiclass, etc, doesn't matter...they are just (usually) trained to fight in a specific environment, is all. In 3rd ed you can choose feats to fit in with that kind of fighting, which you couldn't in 2nd ed. Gladiators are trained in close combat, solo or in small group. So taking feats that boost your own fighting survival is good: Dodge, Wepaon Focus, Improved Toughness. Where as soldiers would take feats like Phalanx Fighting, Hold the Line, Endurance, Iron Will etc, that boost their effectiveness as units.
So, Templars as clerics. What domains would they have?
Using the Spell Compendium, with it's expanded Domain list, typical templar domains that could be used:
Charm, Community, Courage, Creation, Death, Deathbound, Evil, Domination, Greed, Hatred, Inquisition, Madness, Mentalism, Mind, Oracle, Pestilence, Pride, Retribution, Rune, Suffering, Summoner, Trade, Tyranny, Undeath, War, Wealth, Wrath.
Which domains for which SK though? I think templars would have a wide access to variosu domains, but, chosen to reflect their position/goals.
In my games, Kalak is still alive. For a typical Tyr templar, the Domains of Tyranny and War seem likely. Other templars, depending on their purvue, could have different ones.:
-Trade (iron mines, and trade is vital to the city)
-Inquisition, to deal with the Vieled Alliance and others.
-Wealth, particularly greedy templars
-Suffering, torturers.
Hamannu I think would usually have his templars exemplifying his war-like nature:
War, Tyranny, Pride, Wrath maybe Courage
One thing I would suggest for templars in use, is that the ACTUAL amount of spells they can prepare, depends on thier relation with their SK and their SK's power and personality. SKs maybe miserly with their allotment of spell power, a templar maybe out of favour etc, so, having some templars with fewer spells prepared than normal, maybe an idea.
-For example, say a templar has been slacking or screwed up, his SK denies him the use of low level spells, while still letting him keep the high level ones that are vital in emergencies, or visa-versa.
-This would be a good "RP" differential between templars and elemental clerics.
Paizos Dark Sun conversion did have the Templar as a Cleric class. Personally I have no problem with this and in my new campaign the Templar will likely be a Cleric or Favoured Soul varient. If you're using thespell compendium I would probably recommend the following domains.
Kalak. Domination, Tyrany, Hatred,
Hamanu. Courage,War, Strength,
Lalali-Puy. Animal, Community,Plant,
Nibenay. Knowledge,Magic, Spell,
Andropinis. Travel, Trade, Wealth
Tectikulay (sp?) Protection,Retribution,War
Oronis.Liberation, Purification, Renewal,
Abalach Re. Charm,Greed, Lust
Borys. Destruction,Dragon,Wrath
Dregoth. Deathbound,Planning, Undeath,
Daskinor. Inquisition,Madness, Suffering,
That only gives them 3 domains each. More than a few of them could also have Tyranny domain. I left off the alignment Domains since the Sorceror Kings while usually LE don't tend to champion Law or Evil as part of their activities.
Gladiators replace the monk in the DS scheme of classes. Though they certainly aren't parallels, some could argue that gladiatorial combat is the pinacle of meditative survival.
Anywhoo... I like the gladiator class as presented in DS3, except for the exotic weapon proficiencies. IMO, gladiators should recieve a new slot every level - every other level at a bare minimum! Either that, or gladiators recieve a group weapon proficiency that includes many of the strange, exotic DS (and core) weapons.
oh well done on the domains!
Nomadicc,
I think the "exotic" weapons shouuld really be martial for Athasian characters, considering they are intrinsic to Athas, or to specific city-states.
Or add them as a bonus/combined feat to those who are trained as gladiators?
Zardnaar
oh well done on the domains!
Nomadicc,
I think the "exotic" weapons shouuld really be martial for Athasian characters, considering they are intrinsic to Athas, or to specific city-states.
Or add them as a bonus/combined feat to those who are trained as gladiators?
I more or less pulled the domains out of my butt based on the real world culture each city is based on the the personality of its King/Queen.
I think the "exotic" weapons shouuld really be martial for Athasian characters, considering they are intrinsic to Athas, or to specific city-states.
Or add them as a bonus/combined feat to those who are trained as gladiators?
This is an intrinsic problem with any 'exotic' campaign world, much like -Oriental Adventures-. What is considered martial and exotic on Athas are certainly different from the core rules proficiencies (based on the western medieval concept).
I'd say the lists for DS3 probably need to be re-evaluated. Certainly, many of the weapons (like those from the -Gladiator's Handbook-) are probably only known to the trained few, but many of the others are probably common enough to be considered martial or even simple.
This whole topic picks at my problems with the feat system (value inequalities), and especially exotic weapons. Most exotics are not worth the feat you waste on them. They should provide some special benefit worthy of the feat slot used, which is, by-and-large, not the case.
/rant
This is an intrinsic problem with any 'exotic' campaign world, much like -Oriental Adventures-. What is considered martial and exotic on Athas are certainly different from the core rules proficiencies (based on the western medieval concept).
I'd say the lists for DS3 probably need to be re-evaluated. Certainly, many of the weapons (like those from the -Gladiator's Handbook-) are probably only known to the trained few, but many of the others are probably common enough to be considered martial or even simple.
This whole topic picks at my problems with the feat system (value inequalities), and especially exotic weapons. Most exotics are not worth the feat you waste on them. They should provide some special benefit worthy of the feat slot used, which is, by-and-large, not the case.
/rant
Decent exotic weapons like the spiked chain are broken but save or die effects or no save spells are fine.
Best weapon/style in the game is a two handed greatsword with power attack. Greataxe is probbaly a close runner up although I do like the Jovar which is an exotic greatsword with a 18-20 crit range on it.
Gladiators are a class in the same manner a Thief/Rogue is one. Gladiators aren't just fighters/barbarians, they're slaves pit against each other in a theatrical performance.
Barbarians aren't a "class" either, Barbarians describe a group of people. In reality Barbarians should be Berserkers or w/e would be the correct name.
Gladiators are a class in the same manner a Thief/Rogue is one. Gladiators aren't just fighters/barbarians, they're slaves pit against each other in a theatrical performance.
This is the kind of stuff that makes me want to go play d20 Modern.
I've recently been thinking of reworking the whole DS system to incorporate d20 Modern's class system. I think it would work much better than the typical 'class as profession' system used by D&D.
I've recently been thinking of reworking the whole DS system to incorporate d20 Modern's class system. I think it would work much better than the typical 'class as profession' system used by D&D.
I would very much like to see that. :D
Barbarians aren't a "class" either, Barbarians describe a group of people. In reality Barbarians should be Berserkers or w/e would be the correct name.
Gladiators are a class in the same manner a Thief/Rogue is one. Gladiators aren't just fighters/barbarians, they're slaves pit against each other in a theatrical performance.
My sentiments exactly. I should also mention that, at least IMHO I think the fighter class as it relates to Darksun seems to have taken on a rule more like a soldier then general warrior. At least the Athas.org discription along with the battlefield feats seem to suggest, which I think makes a lot of sense in the context of the game world. Especially when you take the Barbarian(I'm sticking with the term Brute from the 3rd Ed version, I think it fits more) class into consideration as a contrast.
As an example, in the campaign I'm setting up the characters are pregenerated because I'm dealing with a few post TSR gamers not familiar with the setting.:D The fighter I made is a ex-slave soldier from Urik. I think it works, since I don't think there's much 'on the street' support for training disciplined warriors, ie. fighters. IMHO, I think that outside of the organized armies of the city-states 'Brutes' would be more realistic and prolific.
Thous Gladiators earn there own class, since they are the entertainers of bloodsport and duelist, and thous do not fully fit either the fighter or the brute class in relation to DS. Yes there may be fighters and brutes that fight in the arena, but it's foriegn territory to either class and are at a disadvantage. Fighters, as I am defining them, are masters of warfare, Barbarians (brutes) are masters of slaughter and Gladiators are masters of combat for entertainment.
I don't mind having a Gladiator core class, as long as its deeply rooted in Athasian flavor and has enough unique and fun abilities to make it playable. Watering it all down into generic d20 modern classes sounds a bit like "kits" to me, and thats not a good thing...
No kits. Generic base classes give depth to the characters.
In regular D&D, a Monk is a Monk is a Monk. But if it's broken down into an Advanced Class you could have many different variations on the Monk.
Bruce Lee (strong/monk), Jackie Chan (fast/monk), or even Johnny Cage from Mortal Kombat (charismatic/monk)
It can also prevent silliness like sneak-attacking trade barons.
Another benefit for DS is that it lowers the power level a bit and makes things dangerous again.
Hopefully someone will chime in with the name or the person who did the conversion and or a link to the conversion.
I believe it was Seker, but I don't have a link - is he still out there?
You're right, I've found the posts.
BTW, if anyone doesn't know yet, THE FORUM SEARCH WORKS!!!
Calling for the feedback on the d20 modern dark sun system by Seker
D20 modern Dark sun version is needing playtesters by Seker
Thinking about meshing Dark Sun with d20 Modern... by Jedi Nyte & Seker
I've also PMed Seker to see if he's still on the boards, but according to his profile he hasn't been online since January.
You're right, I've found the posts.
BTW, if anyone doesn't know yet, THE FORUM SEARCH WORKS!!!
WOW!!
That's amazing they've been down the entire time I've been on the boards. They shut down right before I 1st started posting... almost as though they were hiding 
from me.I've also PMed Seker to see if he's still on the boards, but according to his profile he hasn't been online since January.
He probably grew disinterested after finishing his project because of the lack of responce
. I remember him being kind of frustrated about it. I would suggest that you send him an email if you playtest his system to give him feedback, I'm sure he would appriciate it and it might even lure him back to the boards :DHis forum settings refuse emails, and I don't know his name so I can't ID him on the Retirees list at Athas.org
Armor optimization is of fairly marginal value unless your dex is very high or you intend to spend one of your rare feats on heavy armor proficiency (something else the fighter has over them). Arena Guile just makes you really good at feinting, which is less valuable at higher levels where you might much rather spend a full-round action attacking rather than doing a feint/attacking once.
And after level 10, they don't really get anything interesting, just buffs of their previous abilities. I feel like they need to be fleshed out more and given bonus feats every 4 or 5 levels so they can get some of the versatility that fighters do.
Instead of simply granting exotic weapon proficiencies grant the following ability at the same levels:
Exotic Weapons Training
You gain one of the following feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, or any Weapon Style feat.
That a giving Gladiators a slightly better unarmed damage progression is IMO all that is needed to make them stack up with other classes better.
It would also fit in with the descriptions from the novels where Tyrian Gladiators are laying waste to Warriors from Urik.
The easiest way to effect this change would be renaming the Fighter to Gladiator and expanding the class features and bonus feat list.
IMO, Gladiators should more or less replace Fighters as the elite combat class in DS. For more generic combat characters, the NPC Warrior class is suitable.
It would also fit in with the descriptions from the novels where Tyrian Gladiators are laying waste to Warriors from Urik.
The easiest way to effect this change would be renaming the Fighter to Gladiator and expanding the class features and bonus feat list.
Not a good idea. Is every veteran an ex gladiator? Can't really see elite troops either being warriors or gladiators. The fighter has a role IMHO.
Again, a gladiator does not need a seperate class. They are*anyone* who specializes in fighting in the arena, that is all.
For a RL example, note how the Roman legions vs Spartacus went. In one on one fights, the gladiators kicked ass against raw troops. Against veterans who worked as units to skilled military orders, the gladiators got utterly slaughtered.
So, in D&D terms:
GLADIATOR:
they'd take feats like Improved Toughness, Dodge, Spring Attack and other things suitable for the close quarter, mostly one-on-one fighting of the arena. The ability to survive, or kill the other guy 1st is what matters. All this stuff about "making a show of it", lol....no way, maybe at high levels, but most fights will be too brutal for "Play acting", that's ridiculous! These folk are fighitng for their lives. Untilt hey've got a lot of skill under thier belt, death is too quick to take any risks: you butcher the other guy quick as you can, in a way that's hopeflly really messy to please the crowd that way.
-i.e. skills/feats/abilities to draw out the length of fights etc are just nonsense. In most arenas, folk will wear little or no armour, because of the heat, because of the crowd wanting to see blood...
-So arena fights will tend to be swift and extremely gory, except when two higher level champions are set up in a special match.
-As a note, "wearing heavier armour designed for the heat" I find that idea ridiculous for Dark Sun, since it flies in the face of the milleu and practicalities. A breastplate made of chitin or scale mail from bone/chitin or the like is the heaviest armour you'd ever see.
Most folk would only be able to tolerate leather.
-i.e. DMs should be ruthless about rules regarding armour, discomfort, heat etc ;)
-This means arena fights, folk armed with short swords/scimitars or two handed wepaons, with Improved Critical feats or Power Attack would result, logically for Athas, in very nasty, short fights as I said ;)
SOLDIER:
Feats they'd likely take:
-Endurance, if like the Romans, hard marching is required, and considering the terrible heat of Athas, it would be a good one.
-Phalanx Fighting and Hold the Line feats, means hordes of enemies would be smashed against thier shield walls.
-Iron Will, so their nerve wouldn't break.
-For soldiers, it's not about "who is the best combatant" it is about "who is NOT the weakest link, because that weak link, sets the strength of the whole".
-A typical Athasian soldier would be 2nd to 4th level fighter or warrior, with fighters being the more professional/elite groups, or SKs who pride their martial skills, like Hammanu I'd suspect.
-Remember, soldiers can have long careers of mostly boredome and training, thus they are *not* "1st level warriors", that cliche' is simply ridiculous ;) Again, check RL, consider the Roman legions, Celtic noble guards, Vikings etc. Obviously *not* 1st lvl warriors ;)
-A 1st level warrior is a "just joined up after basic training grunt". After a couple of years, if he's good, he'll progress as as fighter, if not, as a warrior. If he's really good, or his city is proud of it's military, he may well start as a 1st lvl fighter, i.e. like Sparta.
I'm not saying one is better than the other (gladiator vs fighter, or even vs barbarian or ranger or multiclass). It's just each has a lifestyle and career choices that's different than the other.
-On average, one solider wouldn't be as tough to defeat as one gladiator, but 100 professional soldiers would really suck to assault if properly lead, be like a meat grinder!
Again, look at the real life history of the Romans versus the Celts. The Celtic warriors were NOT useles drunken twerps (most of the time anyway), they were aristorcracy and their seasoned bodyguards, big tough men (barbarians or fighters if you wish, some were pretty civilized, some were not)..the Romans feared them, because one one one, they kicked massive butt.
-The Roman legions creamed them though, the Romans were usually vastly out numbered and on foreign terrain, fyi. The Romans were better soldiers and disicpline, or lack of it to be precise on the Celt's side, is what finally destroyed Vercingetorix's people.
-Celts and Germans were liked in the arena for their physique and ability. That can't be ignored, either.
So, in Athas, what distinguishes combatants, in the arena or out of it, is "how they do their thing", what feats, skills, items, tricks, abilities they use. Not some weird "special class".
Rangers, barbarians, fighters, each makes sense. "Gladiator" does not. Gladiator just says WHERE you fight and why.
-Lot of bandits, caravan guards, hunters would be a mix of warrior, fighter, rogue classes, with a few having ranger levels. That's another "style of living", that causes different skills to be required.
Another example, though:
-A veteran caravan guard will have skills to do with Spot (to see ambushes), Sense Motive (to know when he's being ripped off or set up), improving his skills on mount. He maybe stealthy, to scout and even escape when things go bad. Track is a good feat to learn of potential dangers.
-This guy doesn't need ot be as physically brutal as a gladiator, he needs to rely on his wits if he's to be more than a dumb "arrow stopper" (which is what many warrior class characters are--basic militia, leg breakers etc). Your veteran caravan guard may have levels in Fighter, Expert, Rogue, or Ranger.
DMs should always consider the *quality of the person*, it's not about stats, it's about that "something" that makes one guy a bit dangerous (A warrior or even a Commoner with pluck but no real "oomph"), versus someone who's really dangerous: a fighter, barbarian, ranger etc.
Think about it in RL: many folk simply aren't up to being a soldier, cop etc, and it's not always about brains or physique. The toughest fighter I ever saw was as we say: "a 5 foot nothing!", but bloody heck, he could get stomped but he went straight back in...and never ever quit, omg! That kind of spirit, with training and you've got someone to be reckoned with.
Gladiators and Soliders in Athas, will be chosen for their temperament, skills and of course, bad luck if yer slave/condemned. Way I run Athas, some cities have freemen as gladiators because either they earned freedom, and still came back, or, as poor hungry folk, or well off but craving fame etc, they turn to gladitorial combat.
-If you've got patience and orderly discipline, probably better off as a soldier in one of the SK's battalions.
-If you're tough, mean, nasty, think on your feet, probably a better gladiator.
Hm?
There is a big difference between a *pit fighting champion*, and a trained bodyguard, skilled soldier etc.
Again, a gladiator does not need a seperate class. They are*anyone* who specializes in fighting in the arena, that is all.
For a RL example, note how the Roman legions vs Spartacus went. In one on one fights, the gladiators kicked ass against raw troops. Against veterans who worked as units to skilled military orders, the gladiators got utterly slaughtered.
So, in D&D terms:
GLADIATOR:
they'd take feats like Improved Toughness, Dodge, Spring Attack and other things suitable for the close quarter, mostly one-on-one fighting of the arena. The ability to survive, or kill the other guy 1st is what matters. All this stuff about "making a show of it", lol....no way, maybe at high levels, but most fights will be too brutal for "Play acting", that's ridiculous! These folk are fighitng for their lives. Untilt hey've got a lot of skill under thier belt, death is too quick to take any risks: you butcher the other guy quick as you can, in a way that's hopeflly really messy to please the crowd that way.
-i.e. skills/feats/abilities to draw out the length of fights etc are just nonsense. In most arenas, folk will wear little or no armour, because of the heat, because of the crowd wanting to see blood...
-So arena fights will tend to be swift and extremely gory, except when two higher level champions are set up in a special match.
-As a note, "wearing heavier armour designed for the heat" I find that idea ridiculous for Dark Sun, since it flies in the face of the milleu and practicalities. A breastplate made of chitin or scale mail from bone/chitin or the like is the heaviest armour you'd ever see.
Most folk would only be able to tolerate leather.
-i.e. DMs should be ruthless about rules regarding armour, discomfort, heat etc ;)
-This means arena fights, folk armed with short swords/scimitars or two handed wepaons, with Improved Critical feats or Power Attack would result, logically for Athas, in very nasty, short fights as I said ;)
SOLDIER:
Feats they'd likely take:
-Endurance, if like the Romans, hard marching is required, and considering the terrible heat of Athas, it would be a good one.
-Phalanx Fighting and Hold the Line feats, means hordes of enemies would be smashed against thier shield walls.
-Iron Will, so their nerve wouldn't break.
-For soldiers, it's not about "who is the best combatant" it is about "who is NOT the weakest link, because that weak link, sets the strength of the whole".
-A typical Athasian soldier would be 2nd to 4th level fighter or warrior, with fighters being the more professional/elite groups, or SKs who pride their martial skills, like Hammanu I'd suspect.
-Remember, soldiers can have long careers of mostly boredome and training, thus they are *not* "1st level warriors", that cliche' is simply ridiculous ;) Again, check RL, consider the Roman legions, Celtic noble guards, Vikings etc. Obviously *not* 1st lvl warriors ;)
-A 1st level warrior is a "just joined up after basic training grunt". After a couple of years, if he's good, he'll progress as as fighter, if not, as a warrior. If he's really good, or his city is proud of it's military, he may well start as a 1st lvl fighter, i.e. like Sparta.
I'm not saying one is better than the other (gladiator vs fighter, or even vs barbarian or ranger or multiclass). It's just each has a lifestyle and career choices that's different than the other.
-On average, one solider wouldn't be as tough to defeat as one gladiator, but 100 professional soldiers would really suck to assault if properly lead, be like a meat grinder!
Again, look at the real life history of the Romans versus the Celts. The Celtic warriors were NOT useles drunken twerps (most of the time anyway), they were aristorcracy and their seasoned bodyguards, big tough men (barbarians or fighters if you wish, some were pretty civilized, some were not)..the Romans feared them, because one one one, they kicked massive butt.
-The Roman legions creamed them though, the Romans were usually vastly out numbered and on foreign terrain, fyi. The Romans were better soldiers and disicpline, or lack of it to be precise on the Celt's side, is what finally destroyed Vercingetorix's people.
-Celts and Germans were liked in the arena for their physique and ability. That can't be ignored, either.
So, in Athas, what distinguishes combatants, in the arena or out of it, is "how they do their thing", what feats, skills, items, tricks, abilities they use. Not some weird "special class".
Rangers, barbarians, fighters, each makes sense. "Gladiator" does not. Gladiator just says WHERE you fight and why.
-Lot of bandits, caravan guards, hunters would be a mix of warrior, fighter, rogue classes, with a few having ranger levels. That's another "style of living", that causes different skills to be required.
Another example, though:
-A veteran caravan guard will have skills to do with Spot (to see ambushes), Sense Motive (to know when he's being ripped off or set up), improving his skills on mount. He maybe stealthy, to scout and even escape when things go bad. Track is a good feat to learn of potential dangers.
-This guy doesn't need ot be as physically brutal as a gladiator, he needs to rely on his wits if he's to be more than a dumb "arrow stopper" (which is what many warrior class characters are--basic militia, leg breakers etc). Your veteran caravan guard may have levels in Fighter, Expert, Rogue, or Ranger.
DMs should always consider the *quality of the person*, it's not about stats, it's about that "something" that makes one guy a bit dangerous (A warrior or even a Commoner with pluck but no real "oomph"), versus someone who's really dangerous: a fighter, barbarian, ranger etc.
Think about it in RL: many folk simply aren't up to being a soldier, cop etc, and it's not always about brains or physique. The toughest fighter I ever saw was as we say: "a 5 foot nothing!", but bloody heck, he could get stomped but he went straight back in...and never ever quit, omg! That kind of spirit, with training and you've got someone to be reckoned with.
Gladiators and Soliders in Athas, will be chosen for their temperament, skills and of course, bad luck if yer slave/condemned. Way I run Athas, some cities have freemen as gladiators because either they earned freedom, and still came back, or, as poor hungry folk, or well off but craving fame etc, they turn to gladitorial combat.
-If you've got patience and orderly discipline, probably better off as a soldier in one of the SK's battalions.
-If you're tough, mean, nasty, think on your feet, probably a better gladiator.
Hm?
I agree with this post alot. At least no one has mentioned a Gladiator with a Katana. If the Gladiators patrons want a longer fight use inefficent bone daggars or some other d3 or d4 weapon.
Personally I would like to see fighters simialr to the Star Wars Soldier class. 4 skill points/level, and optional armored feats so you can build a lightly armored/unarmored gladiatior or swashbuckler or a tank/meatshield. To me a gladiator is maybe a fighter with different feat selections and a few ranks in profession: Gladiator.
Personally I would like to see fighters simialr to the Star Wars Soldier class. 4 skill points/level, and optional armored feats so you can build a lightly armored/unarmored gladiatior or swashbuckler or a tank/meatshield. To me a gladiator is maybe a fighter with different feat selections and a few ranks in profession: Gladiator.
You mean Fighters will finally be able to tie their own shoes?!?
I totally agree with this idea. I think the Fighter would be better suited with a few more class skills.
You mean Fighters will finally be able to tie their own shoes?!?
I totally agree with this idea. I think the Fighter would be better suited with a few more class skills.
Its been a while since I looked at the Star Wars RPG setting as my friend owns it. From memory Soldiers are fighters with 4 skill points a level and they can take other feats instead of medium and heavy armor proficency which are granted a s bonus feats at level 2-4 or something like that. I like it alot as most low level fighters can't afford heavy armor or don't even want to use it. Always irked me fighters don't have spot and listen as class skills. You want to hire a trained watchman? Better hope that fighter is a multiclass scout/rogue/ranger. The Star Wars soldier would make a much better fighter/gladiator than both the Fighter and Gladiator in D&D.
I agree with the Gladiator comment. There is no real reason for it to be a separate class. Most Gladiators would be some combination of Fighter, Rogue, Ranger and Barbarian.
Paizos Dark Sun conversion did have the Templar as a Cleric class. Personally I have no problem with this and in my new campaign the Templar will likely be a Cleric or Favoured Soul varient. If you're using thespell compendium I would probably recommend the following domains.
Kalak. Domination, Tyrany, Hatred,
Hamanu. Courage,War, Strength,
Lalali-Puy. Animal, Community,Plant,
Nibenay. Knowledge,Magic, Spell,
Andropinis. Travel, Trade, Wealth
Tectikulay (sp?) Protection,Retribution,War
Oronis.Liberation, Purification, Renewal,
Abalach Re. Charm,Greed, Lust
Borys. Destruction,Dragon,Wrath
Dregoth. Deathbound,Planning, Undeath,
Daskinor. Inquisition,Madness, Suffering,
That only gives them 3 domains each. More than a few of them could also have Tyranny domain. I left off the alignment Domains since the Sorceror Kings while usually LE don't tend to champion Law or Evil as part of their activities.
Ah...
But it should be noted that Once a Sorcerer King is dead there is no more Spells availible for the Templar unless he/she finds another Sorcerer king to worship
And yes the key word, contrary to some comments on cynical Templars, is Worship as they do need to "pray" to their Sorcerer King to get their Spells.
Only the original 15 Champions attracted the interest of the "living vortex" via the Dark Lens as they were created in the Pristine Tower turning the SUn from Yellow to Red (Was Blue to Yellow as the Halfling "Nature Masters" tried to stop the browing tide via using the Pristine Tower to draw the power from the Blue Sun) and there are no more living Vorticies as the race went extinct so there will be no more Dragons capable of granting spells via the thing being lodged in their Primial Lobe as a "passanger" that was drawn to the interesting life form to observe from within
And before you ask, Dragon Kings(2408,TSR 1992) page 59 under Former Templars for Templars loosing spells, same resource page 10 and 11 under Ancient Origins for the "living vortex" that enables the Dragons to grant spells, Delifers and Preservers (2445,TSR 1996) page 38 conserning the vortex linking to the Champions via the Dark Lens, same resource page 16 under "Time before Magic" for the Halfings being the Nature Masters during the "Blue Age" them using the Pritine Tower to cure a mistake causing the sun to go yellow and the start of the "Green Age" (Which included turning themsels into humans,dwarfs,etc to fit into the new world) and same Resource page 18-19 under "The Cleansing Wars" last paragraph for when Rajaat took his 15 Champions to the Pristine Tower and turned the yellow sun Red....making them all 21 level Dragons
Preservers and Delilers Resource also has some "in stone" rulings on Spell jamming (which isn't possible cause Athas is totally separate from the other realms, it's Crystal Sphere impenetrable and the Grey is "infanate" and even gods/immortals can get lost in and killed by the sapping powers of the "Grey") and Plane Jumping is very,very hard into and out of Athas Realm (note, not impossible) and the one I underlined in the past for some reason on page 31 in the 2nd paragraph "People tend to forgt that not all defilers are evil"...lol
It should be noted that I listed the Kosher stuff in the resources as it looks like I penned in a lot of notes on the side bars conserning finding water, the grey being a "god lock" to keep the dangerous "Life Masters" and their abobinations stuck on Athas (After all if they can manipulate life itself and suck life out of the planet and the Stars...), Because of Illithids and Giths there was a time that there was Spelljamming and in fact the "Life Masters" also had Spaceships and such and though "peaceful" there ability to suck the life out of planets and their Star made "somebody decide to cut them off from the rest of existance before they got the notion to move to another Realm to suck the life out of" (Noting that since the Grey can even kill Immortals/gods that it may have even been the Realms Overgod that cut the realm from the rest of existance)
I'm aware of mst of the sources yu've mentioned. I have Dragon Kings and PDFs of most of the DS material form RPGnow.com.
While rare I'm not personally opposed to new Sorceror Kings so they need to resurect a dead vortex, find a new one, or maybe tranfer one form a dead king as I'm not sure if they die when the King dies.
Also a wannabe Sorcero King might be able to find anothe way to leech elemental eneryg form the panes.
I included the dead Sorceror Kings as some ppl might be playing in a different time frame.
I'm aware of mst of the sources yu've mentioned. I have Dragon Kings and PDFs of most of the DS material form RPGnow.com.
While rare I'm not personally opposed to new Sorceror Kings so they need to resurect a dead vortex, find a new one, or maybe tranfer one form a dead king as I'm not sure if they die when the King dies.
Also a wannabe Sorcero King might be able to find anothe way to leech elemental eneryg form the panes.
Well, "Badna", is still around in the remaining Sorcerer Kings with freed up portions of itself roaming around Athas trying to get back home
The "Living Vortex" calls itself Badna and originally wanted out of Albie as she was a drag, but this is when "Badna" realized it was actually lodged in the primordial lobe and in a panic confronted her not realizing that doing so would freak her out and drive her mad. "Badna" did not ever reveal itself to the other Champions
What is "Badna"?
"Badna" is a Nightmare creature who not only perceives the 5th dimension as the first, the 4th dimension as the 2nd, 3rth and 3rd, 2nd as 4th, and 1st as 5th , but simultaneously exists on all the Elemental Planes at once.
"Badna" is a Explorer of sorts and makes a habit of finding interesting creatures and then "going along for the ride" within there minds by sticking a "finger" of it's consciousness into the mind of the creature and conjoining with them
In the case of the Sorcerer Kings "Badna" was attracted to the unusual magic that was transforming the very essence of the creatures into new life forms and so "Badna" conjoined with them not knowing that the altering of the life force while it's "fingers" in there made "Badna" effectively stuck until their Death.
A side effect of also being stuck in the altered life form was that "Badna" became a conduit unto which the Champions of Rajaat could grant Spells to their followers in not only being stuck in the lobe but also touching every elemental plane at once.
"Badna" true form?
Well, if the "Summon Polynynomorph" spell is used to call a Polynynomorph (what "Badna" is) there is a black inky emptiness that fills the area that the Polynynomorph is gating into for a brief moment before the Polynynomorph turns into a Creature..usually a Human that looks like "he" is wearing leather armor and carrying a sword.
"Badna" whether by lack of experience or the panic of being stuck first confronted of poor Abie as a Huge light with a Face in it ("Grinning Sun") then tried to calm her down by assuming a Human Shape but accidentally made the form with 4 arms instead of 2...lol
Getting "Badna" into a New Advanced being?
Probably not. After some 10,000 odd years of being stuck in the original Champions lobes, trying to convince "Badna" to conjoin with another advanced form is not likely unless any new Dragon or Avangion has shown the ability to grant spells...only then has "Badna" been conjoining with creatures again. Badna is stuck in the Athas Realm because of the Grey and Black and has no clue that it's host body and the rest of it's kind is effectively extinct in the it's Home plane (Rogue Survivors like Badna exist though)
It should be noted that Polynynomorph take a back seat ride in all sorts of creatures but only the Advanced Beings had resulted in that Spell granting thing.
Polynynomorphs can also spontaneously create a form to exist in the Prime...like an animal or a "Lowly Street guard in Leather Armor", or can actively posses living creatures (which they rarely do as it kills the residing life force), or even possess recently dead creatures curing the new body of all wounds and even assuming the person's place in society (also rare)
p.s. There is a possibility that if "Badna" Waits until after the 1st Metamorphoses spell is done and exits for each additional one that "Badna" might not be stuck in the Lobe. There is also the chance that Spell Granting ability may not happen if "Badna" isn't logged in the Primordial Lobe by the Metamorphoses spell.
Like Star Trek the next Generaiton, ugh...badna...Living Vortexes....ugh.
Fine if you like it, but to me and others...the SKs are evil demigods of enormous, mysterious power...and that's IT! ;)
Can I just say, that the latter posts elequently explains why Dark Sun became ridiculous to many players and a bad joke: TECHNO BABBLE!
Like Star Trek the next Generaiton, ugh...badna...Living Vortexes....ugh.
Fine if you like it, but to me and others...the SKs are evil demigods of enormous, mysterious power...and that's IT! ;)
Well it was a pretty good attempt to try to bring Depth to the Campain world but not everyone got the Ultima Series either and most PS2 era people prefer the Hack and Slash of Baulder Gate Dark Alliance or Arcade Games of blast and go from point a to b over actual storylines and roleplaying....whatever
In any case, you did say you have the Dark Sun materials yes?.
Other Materials like "Pages of the Mages" show that Wizards and even Priests develop ways to bestow any of the spells they have availible to another creature by giving up the slot and casting a spell that does the Transfer....with the spell staying with the target creature for use on command word etc.
Likewise the potential Dragons have to get the cooperation of powerful beings of the different plane for the higher level Transformations and some of these beings are the very same beings the Elemental Clerics of Athas get their Spells from.
So it wouldn't be to far fetched to have the potential Dragon to turn in a few favors to have it's powerful allies allow it to relay Spells to it's followers if not developing a New Spell (for Athas) that allows the Dragon or Avangions to transfer Spells to their Disciples and followers that it knows (using Epic feats to increase the amout of spells it can deal out)