Just wondering if any of you have seen the new novels announcement here. I don't know about you all, but this was not what I was hoping for when I read the header.
What are your thoughts?
It's found at the FoS main board.
Joël
Joël
... really hope it's not a train.
"Before he can react to that knowledge, the Mists rise around him - but they do not send him to a new world. Instead, they drive him first mad and then to the new laboratory of the missing man,"
Maybe one should not make too much of it, but it certainly seems quite the departure from what we know of the Mists since before. Snatching people away, yes. Putting them in the midst of all kinds of scary monsters, yes. Conferring strange powers upon those who hang around too much in them, yes (more recently). But going so far as to engineer the mental state of somebody they surround? Somehow seems to clash with the concept of the Mists/Dark Powers never actively creating any outcomes so much as to give their victims eough rope to hang themselves with...
The Ravenloft of these books may come to be something quite apart from what has been described so far in the setting...
Second: Maybe it is a new Ravenloft (consider it a 2.0 version). But everything got to evolve one day or the other!
First, I'd say if Strahd made a pact with the DP, didn't they ade him mad? I think so.
*if* it was the DPs themselves that made that deal with Strahd, I'd still say no, they did not make him mad. Strahd's behaviour at the time of his transformation was clearly driven by less-than-rational passions, and no small amount of evil, but he was probably quite far away from true madness even at the height of events, and whatever the Powers bestowed upon him was no more or less causing him to enter such a state than he otherwise would have.
Second: Maybe it is a new Ravenloft (consider it a 2.0 version). But everything got to evolve one day or the other!
Possibly. If it was linked to the re-release of the setting, I for one would probably take it over nothing new ever being released again.
Now, if they could only publish a story set in Victorian Age england, I'd certainly starts doing a jig...
The second novel's in the right timeframe, but the description isn't clear on whether it's England, America, or some other nation.
Possibly. If it was linked to the re-release of the setting, I for one would probably take it over nothing new ever being released again.
I would prefer nothing new than new rubbish. The fact that nothing new has been produced in so long (and I don't want to even mention White Wolfs attempts) doesn't mean that I can't play Ravenloft, just that I'm frustrated at the lack of continued support.
Still, my stance remains the same - if something new comes out, it would need to be quality for WotC to get my dollars.
I would prefer nothing new than new rubbish. The fact that nothing new has been produced in so long (and I don't want to even mention White Wolfs attempts)
Why not? Though it's been a few years now, the Gazetteers were excellent work (whose value is not dragged down by clinkers like Champions of Darkness).
Hopefully WotC will bring back more of Ravenloft if the response is good.
First, I'd say if Strahd made a pact with the DP, didn't they ade him mad? I think so.
I thought Strahd's pact was with the arcanaloth Inajira.
I would prefer nothing new than new rubbish. The fact that nothing new has been produced in so long (and I don't want to even mention White Wolfs attempts) doesn't mean that I can't play Ravenloft, just that I'm frustrated at the lack of continued support.
Err, what do you mean? I'm not sure since most people I know believe the 3rd ed version of RL by WW to be the best.
There were two or three roadkills in WW's version, but the other ±17 book are very good.
Joël
Second: Maybe it is a new Ravenloft (consider it a 2.0 version). But everything got to evolve one day or the other!
According to Ari Marmell, it isn't. Same old RL setting, which is a good news.
And no cross D&D universe NPC or stories: all NPCs come from our earth of the past, or from the RL setting itself.
Joël
I thought Strahd's pact was with the arcanaloth Inajira.
Strahd did make a pact with the arcanaloth, but there is a fair bit of controversy what that actually was about.
He made one pact with a "dark and nameless power" whom he himself calls "Death" in his study in Castle Ravenloft, shortly before Sergei's wedding. The effect of this pact is to make him into a vampire and drive him to kill Sergei.
He made an earlier pact on the verge of a battle with Inajira. Nobody knows exactly what he traded in exchange, or even what Inajira gave him, but it's pretty clear that Strahd wanted something to do with victory in the following day's battle.
The two pacts are separately described and it's not clear whether the designers intended them to overlap in any way.
Myself, I like keeping the Dark Powers nameless and vague, so I prefer to emphasize the Ravenloft meeting rather than Inajira's meeting. If Inajira is a Dark Power, then that's an alarming reduction of stature in my opinion.
Err, what do you mean? I'm not sure since most people I know believe the 3rd ed version of RL by WW to be the best.
There were two or three roadkills in WW's version, but the other ±17 book are very good.
Joël
Obviously all I saw was the rubbish. I really disliked the main rulebook and a few other supplements I had the misfortune to read were nothing short of appalling. At that point I gave up - Ididn't actually see any of the Gazeteers, so I seem to have missed all the good material.
I'm still a big fan of my second ed boxed sets.
Hmmm... you guys have given me food for thought.
But yes, the Gazetteers are well worth a look. They're very well written and have a wealth of information about domains, down to mundane examples like trade commodities and political families in each. Plus there's a coherent and cohesive overarching storyline about the narrator's journey to categorize things for a patron.
Eventually, almost everything you see in the 2nd ed. releases are touched upon and reintroduced in 3rd ed., but they're spread out across a lot of different sourcebooks. I'm buying relatively esoteric books now in the WW RL lineup and still discovering familiar faces from the RL MC II and III.
Obviously all I saw was the rubbish. I really disliked the main rulebook and a few other supplements I had the misfortune to read were nothing short of appalling.
Now I'm curious as to what stuff you saw. If the rulebook you saw was the Ravenloft Players' Handbook (as opposed to the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, the 3.0 book)-- well, a lot of people (myself included) found problems with that one.
I don't care if people like the books, and if you do, more power to you. I just want more 'normal' Ravenloft.
"Normal" ravenloft obviously didn't make enough money, and lets face it, thats what these people are out to do, make some dough. They are trying a new approach, and hoping it works. I bet it will, as it will allow non-ravenloft people to get into it with more a familiar atmosphere. I doubt it will appeal to Ye Old Ravenloft fans though, as you all seem quite set in your ways...
Yes, because clearly we should have been prescient enough to take a shine to Ravenloft based upon whatever mores will be prevailing in these new novels...
I am sceptical to the practice of trying "a familiar angle" to gain interest in a setting otherwise deemed to be too inaccessible for widespread consumption (really, if AD&D settings, Gothic horror and classical horror movies were not enough of a "familiar angle" for Ravenloft, and MotRD was not enough of a "familiar atmosphere", chances are nothing else short of poaching on WoD or CoC fans will be, either). Usually it seems to "water down" the setting enough to turn off the established fan base, while retaining just enough inaccessibility to not really make non-fans get into the whole thing.
And I think in this case, it seems they are turning away from the "Sword & Sorcery"-aspects of Ravenloft as a setting, and away from the established characters and domains. The former was always an odd (if not entirerly inappropriate) fit in the genre of Ravenloft, and I can easily imagine that the setting would live on without it (it already in much showed it could with the White Wolf edition). I am not so sure on the latter... really, looking at the plot synopsis of the new novels, one wonders how much Ravenloft in any capacity is needed for them. It actually seems a lot less like a "familiar" angle to Ravenloft as it is "Ravenloft" as a new angle to (non-MotRD) Earth-based horror stories.
I highly doubt that novels would be the medium required to make that Ravenloft its own setting, the way Ravenloft rose from an AD&D take on Dracula. And thus, I think said novels will turn out to be a compromise that ultimately made none of the parties involved happy, since none of them will get what they want: Ravenloft fans won't get their Ravenloft, D&D fans won't be getting any D&D, horror fans won't be getting good stories, and WotC won't be getting their cash.
He made one pact with a "dark and nameless power" whom he himself calls "Death" in his study in Castle Ravenloft, shortly before Sergei's wedding. The effect of this pact is to make him into a vampire and drive him to kill Sergei.
Given that King of the Dead presents Azalin's fall into evil with the same literary device as was used in the Strahd novels, it's pretty clear that the designers felt that Strahd's "pact with Death" really was a deal with the Dark Powers, or at least their proxy.
As Inajira himself is now trapped in Ravenloft, and had sealed his bargain in the conventional write-it-down-in-a-Book-of-Keeping fashion typical of yugoloths, the arcanaloth's deal with Strahd clearly is a separate issue from the darklord's pact with Death/the DPs. It's probable that mortal Strahd's willingness to cut a deal with a fiend is one of the reasons the Dark Powers took an interest in tempting him, however.
And thus, I think said novels will turn out to be a compromise that ultimately made none of the parties involved happy, since none of them will get what they want: Ravenloft fans won't get their Ravenloft, D&D fans won't be getting any D&D, horror fans won't be getting good stories, and WotC won't be getting their cash.
Remember that from Hasbro's POV, WotC is seen primarily a stockpile of intellectual property -- settings, characters, ideas -- rather than merely as a gaming niche-market. It could be that they've looked at the Ravenloft materials, and decided that the gaming side of the concept is superfluous: that it's novels which have the potential to earn their keep.
If so, cameo appearances by the Mists and recycling of the Ravenloft name may simply be an audience-building strategy for what's really meant to be a straightforward horror fiction series. Note that they chose which old novels to re-release based on author recognition, not just which were well-written or represented the setting's strong points.
Strahd's "pact with Death" really was a deal with the Dark Powers, or at least their proxy.
As Inajira himself is now trapped in Ravenloft, and had sealed his bargain in the conventional write-it-down-in-a-Book-of-Keeping fashion typical of yugoloths, the arcanaloth's deal with Strahd clearly is a separate issue from the darklord's pact with Death/the DPs.
True, that.
Basically, the pact that drew Strahd into Ravenloft was likely with the Dark Powers.
The pact with Inajira is far less important and actually only plays a part in the plot of Roots of Evil really.
Remember that from Hasbro's POV, WotC is seen primarily a stockpile of intellectual property -- settings, characters, ideas -- rather than merely as a gaming niche-market. It could be that they've looked at the Ravenloft materials, and decided that the gaming side of the concept is superfluous: that it's novels which have the potential to earn their keep.
If so, cameo appearances by the Mists and recycling of the Ravenloft name may simply be an audience-building strategy for what's really meant to be a straightforward horror fiction series. Note that they chose which old novels to re-release based on author recognition, not just which were well-written or represented the setting's strong points.
Cameo Appearences by the Mists, lol.
As the mists fold in around you, you can hear a slight voice on the wind that sounds alot like "Rav-en-loft."
But what you're really hearing is "Paid-em-off".
:D
Given that King of the Dead presents Azalin's fall into evil with the same literary device as was used in the Strahd novels, it's pretty clear that the designers felt that Strahd's "pact with Death" really was a deal with the Dark Powers, or at least their proxy.
There was never anything close to consensus among the TSR Kargat as to what exactly "Death's" relation was to the Dark Powers. Specific designers each had their own pet theories, of course, but none of them were suggested as canonical.
William W. Connors, as an example, was of the personal opinion that the "Death" with which Strahd made his pact was one of the (multiple) Dark Powers. As punishment for this act of direct intervention, this entity was banished from the ranks of its brethren, eventually entering Gothic Earth and picking up the nickname of the Red Death. (Other Dark Powers included the Yellow Death, Black Death, Green Death, and so on.)
Other designers had their own takes, of course. The closest there was to a consensus was akin to the "explanation" for the Dark Powers offered in the RL DMG. In other words, it doesn't really matter except as a one-off plot device, so the identity of Strahd's Death is... whatever works for you.
1) Everyone working on the new line is a huge fan of the old line.
2) While the earlier novels in the Ravenloft: Dominion line revolve around new domains, that doesn't mean you won't be seeing familiar domains, and familiar characters, appearing in the future.
3) The elements that make Ravenloft Ravenloft--including, but not limited to, the Mists, the various domains, the Dark Powers, the Vistani--are just as vital to the new line as they were to the old. They play a big part in some stories, a small part in others, but they've been neither forgotten nor abandoned.
4) While the new line is more "gothic horror" and less "fantasy horror" than the old line, it's still got plenty of elements of both.
5) While the new line links Ravenloft to Earth, that doesn't mean these stories take place on Earth with "Ravenloft flavor." I can't speak to the second novel, but I can tell you that maybe 15% of Black Crusade takes place in historical Earth. The rest takes place entirely in Ravenloft; a new domain, yes, but very much the Realm of the Mists.
Don't read too much into those blurbs. They do what they can, but it's difficult to summarize novels like this--particularly horror novels, with the requisite twists and turns--in a paragraph. ;)
Postulating a major change in the fundamental nature of the Mists based on the blurb for a future release would be--premature, to say the least.
I prefer my old edition with Harkon on the front and the TSR logo on the side though. The new format does look okay, but I was taken a little aback by the cover art for I, Strahd. Is it just me or are they katanas strapped to his hips?
Still, it appears that Ravenloft may be creeping out there purely through the accidental reading of some of the books. Can't hurt the hobby...
I prefer my old edition with Harkon on the front and the TSR logo on the side though. The new format does look okay, but I was taken a little aback by the cover art for I, Strahd. Is it just me or are they katanas strapped to his hips?
Strahd was the Samurai of Barovia. Didn't you know?
Rather heavy-handed for the DPs, but the author clearly was more concerned with freaking readers out when the results were revealed than with consistency. But then, DoaD is widely regarded as one of the worst (often the worst) of the original Ravenloft novels, by many fans of the setting.
Strahd was the Samurai of Barovia. Didn't you know?
That one piece of arcane lore must have passed by my notice. I'll put that in the same basket as the Vistani ninjas.
That one piece of arcane lore must have passed by my notice. I'll put that in the same basket as the Vistani ninjas.
Then the Vistani must be sworn enemies of Pieter Van Reese, because he's a pirate.