1. Is it power level? Questionable. There are non-lord demons certainly more powerful than Grazz't or Dagon (as written without advancing their HD).
2. Is it binding on some level to the layer? Unknown. Kerzit is the "Guardian of the Tome." (Unless there's something about that book that we don't know about--heck, if a layer can be in the shape of ship [Demonwing], why not a book?)
3. How can a demon be considered a lord without having a layer or be in service to another demon lord?
4. Singular control of a layer is problematic (Zuggtmoy/Juiblex).
I've already considered the wonderous infinity that is chaos and evil, and it stills seems that there is a defining set of criteria. Any thoughts?
The most common thing about all demon lords, is that they can rule over millions or billions of lesser demons.
Or at least is dangerous enough to get them to call him Lord :P
"Cough" Orcus "cough Demogorgon "Cough"
....And beat the crap out of any other demon who says otherwise
"Cough" Orcus "cough Demogorgon "Cough"
OK, howzabout Pale Night, that death veil ability doesn't work on CE outsiders (which could be problematic with CE PC tieflings), unless there's some latent (or not-so-latent) feelings for "Mother."
Also without chedcking details her CR is higher, so he is probably afraid of getting his ass kicked :P
Part of the problem is that there's a vague / subtle difference between a Demon Lord and a Demon Prince.
Both are unique beings, falling above and outside the various races of Tan'ari
A Demon Prince has the power to not only conquer a plane, but the power to totally rule that plane and shape it geographically to their will.
A Demon Lord, however, may rule a plane, but lacks the power to shape it to their will, and often rules only at the sufferance of their Demon Prince patron (since many demon lords are vassals of Demon Princes)
Then there's Pazuzzu, who rules the skies above EVERY plane/layer of the Abyss.
Part of the problem is that there's a vague / subtle difference between a Demon Lord and a Demon Prince.
Both are unique beings, falling above and outside the various races of Tan'ari
A Demon Prince has the power to not only conquer a plane, but the power to totally rule that plane and shape it geographically to their will.
A Demon Lord, however, may rule a plane, but lacks the power to shape it to their will, and often rules only at the sufferance of their Demon Prince patron (since many demon lords are vassals of Demon Princes)
And even the prince/lord distinction has changed (ah, chaos) with time and game editions. It used to be the princes couldn't shape or control a layer (in fact, most were squatters of some kind) and the lords were in full control.
And even the prince/lord distinction has changed (ah, chaos) with time and game editions. It used to be the princes couldn't shape or control a layer (in fact, most were squatters of some kind) and the lords were in full control.
To be precise, Abyssal Princes in 2nd Ed. PS were, if I recall, the myriad of disposable pretendants who controlled fortifications on the Plain of Infinite Portals (a position just slightly less secure than that of serving in the Blood War as a Dretch), though I believe it was also mentioned that the definition constantly changed in meaning.
Consistency?
Besides, it probably is just based on translation errors from abyssal to english anyway :P
Well, what do you expect from a chaos plane?
Consistency?
Besides, it probably is just based on translation errors from abyssal to english anyway :P
But if there wasn't some occasional consistency then it wouldn't be truely chaotic. To use the example from one of the PS books (can't remember which one)--all the Xaositects in Sigil decided to be "normal" for a week (that is following the rules) and this made everyone else nervous (in essence, creating chaos in everybody else).
"The only thing predictable about chaos is its unpredictability, and even then that is suspect."
Me hates to think about trying to learn Abyssal in a foreign languages class--the grammar must be a nightmare, and the words alone must be hard on the (humanoid) throat. I imagine a lot of low, gutteral-sounding words that sound vaguely like coughing. Which brings up another question: Can a balor that's been kicked in the crotch still speak Abyssal effectively?(this is what happens when I don't get enough food and sleep--silly philosophical questions)
All Tanar'ri above dretch have some telepathic abilities, and so Abyssal uses that.
(And the mixing of words and thoughts makes it even harder to understand)
Well, I think I recall that only the lowest form of abyssal can be spoken.
All Tanar'ri above dretch have some telepathic abilities, and so Abyssal uses that.
(And the mixing of words and thoughts makes it even harder to understand)
If that's the case, the it shouldn't be available to non-telepathic species for speaking purposes. I noticed you didn't address my high-pitched balor scenario. :P
All Tanar'ri have telepathy, and as such don't need to rely on spoken words.
(Often enough the background noise of their layer even makes spoken communication impossible)
And as such a Balor kicked in the groin has no trouble communcating.
(Especially since he will probably chose to communicate with a vorpal sword anyway :P )
Well maybe way different from your way :P
And sure sometimes they take their BDSM games a step too far.
But that is no problem.
They just get a cleric to reassemble their toy
the creators of the game determine the demon lords and princes. I think that the reason some of the demon lords are weaker is because it gives them character. It makes you ask questions and gets you into the game. gives them more personality.
And this is coming from the Prince of Demons?:DAnd he is not the prince of demons, I am. :P
In Hell, Azmodeus pretty much decides who is the lord of a layer, but in the Abyss, each demon lord is different.
1. Is it power level? Questionable. There are non-lord demons certainly more powerful than Grazz't or Dagon (as written without advancing their HD).
2. Is it binding on some level to the layer? Unknown. Kerzit is the "Guardian of the Tome." (Unless there's something about that book that we don't know about--heck, if a layer can be in the shape of ship [Demonwing], why not a book?)
3. How can a demon be considered a lord without having a layer or be in service to another demon lord?
4. Singular control of a layer is problematic (Zuggtmoy/Juiblex).
I've already considered the wonderous infinity that is chaos and evil, and it stills seems that there is a defining set of criteria. Any thoughts?
1. Yeah pretty much power level determines who rules here. But also rumors and belief and strength of minions.
2. The Abyss is a living (somewhat) creature, the layers choose the rulers and the entire plane can choose its master, even if it is a bad decision.
3. He can give himself whatever he choose and make others believe it. If his will is strong enough then he can force himself upon a layer and take it over but really this is the layer choosing him or another lord will choose to take that demon in.
4. I dont understand the question. I rule three layers myself. Three layers, that means I should be the Demon Prince.
So are your three layers really bigger than the layer other demon lords rule :P
Ah, but only the first layer is infinite in size.
So are your three layers really bigger than the layer other demon lords rule :P
Do you REALLY want to get into a "size matters" debate with the Demon Prince/Lord of Dark Desire, Elana? :P Besides, it's quality (of the layer). :D