Funny aside- the description of the Immortal Cay (Terra, patron of the Cay-Men) is somewhat odd. It mentions she became the sponsor of the cay because she liked the idea of creating new races, but was angered by the way the Herathians went about it. "She felt that creating a new race was truly admirable, but debilitating already existing ones in the process was odious. She caused the cay-men to become useless to the Herathians by making them too proud and limiting their building skills."
Isn't that the sort of thing she was angry with the Herathians for doing?
Just rereading issues of Voyage of the Princess Ark, and am up to the "Squamous races" issue. I always kind of liked the Cay-Men, but am having trouble imagining how to differentiate them from the more reptilian version of kobolds from 3rd edition. Any thoughts on the matter? Should they be a related species?
I don't think so, since Mystaran Kobolds are more canine than reptilian. Also, the origin of the two races is well known, and very different (Cay-men are lizard-kin, while Kobolds are Beastmen-descended), and the two species are also geographically distant (no Kobolds in the SC).
Isn't that the sort of thing she was angry with the Herathians for doing?
Indeed :D
I don't think so, since Mystaran Kobolds are more canine than reptilian.
Presuming one isn't making a distinction between Mystaran kobolds and 3E kobolds, then what sorts of differences would one play up/distinctions made between the two?
Offhand, I'm thinking right now of playing up their alligator nature, I guess. I notice they are 2 HD creatures, which makes them quite a bit tougher than a standard kobold as well (especially for a small creature). The problem that way lies differentiating them from gator-men (aside from smaller, more intelligent versions).
Presuming one isn't making a distinction between Mystaran kobolds and 3E kobolds, then what sorts of differences would one play up/distinctions made between the two?
Between Kobolds and Cay-men? Well, it depends on what you're making of the Kobolds -- if you stay with the canine Kobolds, they're already quite different from a physiological point of view. They have a related culture due to worshipping the same immortal, Kurtulmak, though the Cay also worship Terra, while the Kobolds also worship other goblinoid Immortals.
Offhand, I'm thinking right now of playing up their alligator nature, I guess. I notice they are 2 HD creatures, which makes them quite a bit tougher than a standard kobold as well (especially for a small creature). The problem that way lies differentiating them from gator-men (aside from smaller, more intelligent versions).
Well, they are already quite different from the Gurrash -- much like Kobolds are different from Bugbears or Gnolls.
GP
If you want to keep the 3E flavor, I'd play up the kobold's devolution from dragon-kin to its present state. Cay-men stay in the realm of lizard-kin, maybe inbetween a lizard- and alligator-based humanoid, and the Gurrash can keep their hold on anthropomorphic crocodile.
Presuming one isn't making a distinction between Mystaran kobolds and 3E kobolds, then what sorts of differences would one play up/distinctions made between the two?
If you stik to the 3E Kobolds, I suggest building on the fact that 3E Kobolds are related to Dragons. This would fit well with the concept of Kobolds being a "major race" as is suggested in the Northern Reaches gaz.
Then Cay-Men can be lizard types or gator types or whatever you want them to be.
Havard
Kobolds have always been lizard-dogs... while the OD&D description give dominance to the doglike description and 3e give preference to the lizard description, both sides still appear in both versions. Also, IIRC, the 3e descriptions say that kobolds "believe" themselves to be dragon-kin, much like Kol, circa AC 1000 belives himself to be leader of a Thyatian-style republic.
So what I would do is revery to the original description's dominance... allow them to erronously belive they are dragonkin, while the cay-men really are lizards with no dog-like attribites at all.
The distinction to play-up would be cay-men=lizard; kobold=lizard-like dogs (or dog-like lizards); and gurrash=gator men. The different combinations or lack thereof would be the difference.
Roger
Now, if they instead are in fact descended from Dragons, which fits very well with the hints from the Northern Reaches gaz, does that shed any more light on Kol and his spellcasting abilities?
Ofcourse, Kol may in fact be a Shadowelf so deformed and small that he was mistaken for a Kobold and raised by Kobolds. I never liked the whole Kol is a Shadow elf before, but now I'm starting to see some potential in it. And what if Kol wants to tap onto some Dragon-magic himself? Perhaps learning things about the Secret Craft of Dracology?
Havard
Im gonna stick my head out and say Kobolds arent descended from Beastmen. Are there any quotes that specifically say that they are, or is it just that they are believed to be because they always hang out with Humanoids?
Yes. They derive from the tribes Wogar led out of Urzud (GAZ10). They are specifically called Wogar's descendants.
Now, if they instead are in fact descended from Dragons, which fits very well with the hints from the Northern Reaches gaz, does that shed any more light on Kol and his spellcasting abilities?
Actually, to become a mere 5th level wicca, you don't need to be descended from Dragons.
Queen Yazar, for example, is a much more proficient mage (13th level).
Actually, to become a mere 5th level wicca, you don't need to be descended from Dragons.
Queen Yazar, for example, is a much more proficient mage (13th level).
Ah, yes, but as we all know from the HWA series, Yazar is descended from the Blood Brothers (experimental beastmen/goblinoid whatevers created by the Nithians). ;)
Anyway, yeah- there are several other humanoids who exceed the level limits of spellcasting, although they don't seem to have been affected by the "exceeding level limits" notes in the wicca/shaman section of the DM's guide. TSR NPCs always had a notorious habit for breaking the rules that guide PCs for some reason...
They aren't 'just' small lizardfolk. They're actually more evolved, towards a birdlike state. The result is many avian traits, such as brightly colored head frills, thinner bones, and more active metabolisms. They're also prone to being flighty and impatient, more inquisitive but less disciplined, and valuing flash and display over durability and craftsmanship in their art and architecture.
In short, the best personality model for the cay probably isn't reptilian, but arguably more like an anthromorphic jay, robin or finch.
And yes, this is all Terra's fault. She wasn't so much trying to limit the cay with her changes (though making the cay less valuable as Herathian slaves was a definite part of her work) so much as accelerating their evolutionary destiny. Which is well in character for what she does, y'know?...
Anyway, yeah- there are several other humanoids who exceed the level limits of spellcasting, although they don't seem to have been affected by the "exceeding level limits" notes in the wicca/shaman section of the DM's guide. TSR NPCs always had a notorious habit for breaking the rules that guide PCs for some reason...
Well, there's not much telling whether they break the rules or not -- in most cases, there is some HP loss, but not much else. This may or may not have been factored in. BTW, there aren't that many high level shamans or wicca in GAZ10 -- there's a 19th level wicca in Oenkmar, IIRC, and then Yazar.
But the point is, Kol is not that great a wicca to need special reasons for his powers: Kobolds have a wicca level limit of 4, so Kol only took one level past the limit, on his 26 level career! Definitely not enough to require him to be a Shadowelf or a dragon-blooded humanoid.
A quick thought on the Cay-Men:
...
Very interesting take on the cay-men - I like it. It gives them a uniqueness to distinguish them from other reptilian humanoids. So while the kobolds are reptile-like canines, the cay-men are bird-like reptiles. I think presenting the cay-men as you suggested could be a lot of fun. :D
Travis
...I suggest that cay-men are like caimans (Subfamily Caimaninae), whereas gatormen are like alligators (Subfamily Alligatorinae).
I think that was the original intention and I've always thought of them as such. What do you think the gatormen behavioral traits would be?
What do you think the gatormen behavioral traits would be?
I don't know - I'm really no expert on zoology, I just post what Wikipedia says on the subject. :D
As far as culture, the Gatormen of ancient Blackmoor would be different than the Savage Coast Gatormen. Could anyone say, what, if any, is the Real World cultural inspiration for the Gurrash Gatormen of the Kingdom of Ator?
Travis
I don't know - I'm really no expert on zoology, I just post what Wikipedia says on the subject. :D
As far as culture, the Gatormen of ancient Blackmoor would be different than the Savage Coast Gatormen. Could anyone say, what, if any, is the Real World cultural inspiration for the Gurrash Gatormen of the Kingdom of Ator?
Travis
I believe it is the Bayou culture in Louisiana, although my experience with the Savage Coast/ Orc's Head is cursory at best.
I believe it is the Bayou culture in Louisiana, although my experience with the Savage Coast/ Orc's Head is cursory at best.
Mine too, but I think you're right (it rings a bell for me too). I was already thinking they'd have a laid back, easy-going attitude, not in a rush to do much.
Travis
The language is essentially English (though the VotPA crew used translator scrolls, so who knows) and the names are standard fantasy monster (for instance, the kingdom- Ator- is named after the current queen. The old name for the kingdom was named for the previous monarch, whose name I forget.)
The humorous thing I find with the ancestry in the Kobold vs. Cayma, and Kobolds from 3e:
Cayma are provably descended from dragons.
Dragons->(immortal interference)Wallara->(Herathian experiments)->=Shazak
Dragons->(immortal interference)Wallara->(Herathian experiments)->(+alligator) = Gurrash
Dragons->(immortal interference)Wallara->(Herathian experiments)->(+?) = Cayma
And, Cayma (1-1.5 feet tall, 6-10 pounds) are sometimes a third of the height of a kobold. So Mystara does have a dragon-descended tiny humanoid race already. No need to complicate things by throwing in the 3E history for kobolds.
I really like the idea that Cayma are birdlike. It more closely matches the pictures from the SC online Monster Manual, where Cayma look more like an Iguana or Chameleon (both more beaked-lizards than what caimans look like). I would think the Herathians decided against using anything similar to an aligator to cross with the wallaran chameleon men after the Gurrash uprising.
I'll put up a more comprehensive racial description later, but any thoughts for now?
CAY-MAN
Size/Type: Tiny Humanoid (Reptilian)
Hit Dice: 2d8 (8 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+2 size, +1 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-6
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4) or short sword +3 melee (1d3/19-20) or javelin +3 ranged (1d3)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4) or short sword +3 melee (1d3/19-20) or javelin +3 ranged (1d3)
Space/Reach: 2 ½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 ft., hold breath
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 11, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: Craft (stonemasonry) +5, Handle Animal +3, Hide +8, Move Silently +2, Swim +3
Feats: Endurance
Environment: Temperate marshes
Organization: Team (4-6) crew (10-20 plus 50% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level foreman), or village (30-60 plus 1 or 2 foremen of 4th or 5th level, 1 leader of 5th-7th level, and 3-5 monitor lizards)
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: 50% coins; 50% goods; 50% items
Alignment: Usually lawful neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0
Cay-men are short, stocky reptilian humanoids. Inventive but impractical architects, they build mazelike towns above and below ground.
A cay-man’s scaly hide is mottled green or brown in coloration. They have powerful, toothy jaws and short tails. Their silvery eyes glow in the dark and provide them with excellent darkvision. A cay-man stands 1 to 1½ feet in height and weighs around 12 to 15 pounds. Caymen speak Draconic.
Combat
Cay-men generally avoid combat except in self-defense. They prefer to surprise opponents, make a few quick attacks, and then flee. They prefer to throw their javelins (which they call boks) from cover or the safety of their fortified villages, then close to finish off opponents with their bites or short swords (grooka, to the cay-men).
Some groups of cay-men make use of war chariots pulled by small lizards and special grenades filled with an explosive alchemical substance prepared by their shamans.
Hold Breath (Ex): A cay-man can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.
Skills
Cay-men have a +2 racial bonus on Craft (stonemasonry), Handle Animal, and Swim checks.
Cay-men Characters
Cay-men characters possess the following racial traits.
[LIST][*]Tiny size: +2 bonus to Armor Class, +2 bonus on attack rolls, +8 bonus on Hide checks, -8 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ½ those of Medium characters.
[*]A cay-man’s base land speed is 20 feet.
[*]Darkvision out to 90 feet.
[*]Racial Hit Dice: A cay-man begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +0.
[*]Racial Skills: A cay-man’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5
Okay, so here's a conversion I did the other night. I am taking some liberties with their different descriptions and meshing the tough little buggers from OD&D with the notion of them as builders in VotPA/Red Steel. In doing so, I've made them a bit stockier than their Red Steel versions, which IMO differentiates them a bit from kobolds as well. I've also removed ability score bonuses and penalties- they never seemed like they were particularly faster than other creatures, and with the 3.5 carrying capacity restrictions based on size already in place, I didn't think I needed to penalize them further.
I'll put up a more comprehensive racial description later, but any thoughts for now?
CAY-MAN
Size/Type: Tiny Humanoid (Reptilian)
Hit Dice: 2d8 (8 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+2 size, +1 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-6
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4) or short sword +3 melee (1d3/19-20) or javelin +3 ranged (1d3)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4) or short sword +3 melee (1d3/19-20) or javelin +3 ranged (1d3)
Space/Reach: 2 ½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 ft., hold breath
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 11, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: Craft (stonemasonry) +5, Handle Animal +3, Hide +8, Move Silently +2, Swim +3
Feats: Endurance
Environment: Temperate marshes
Organization: Team (4-6) crew (10-20 plus 50% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level foreman), or village (30-60 plus 1 or 2 foremen of 4th or 5th level, 1 leader of 5th-7th level, and 3-5 monitor lizards)
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: 50% coins; 50% goods; 50% items
Alignment: Usually lawful neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0
Cay-men are short, stocky reptilian humanoids. Inventive but impractical architects, they build mazelike towns above and below ground.
A cay-man’s scaly hide is mottled green or brown in coloration. They have powerful, toothy jaws and short tails. Their silvery eyes glow in the dark and provide them with excellent darkvision. A cay-man stands 1 to 1½ feet in height and weighs around 12 to 15 pounds. Caymen speak Draconic.
Combat
Cay-men generally avoid combat except in self-defense. They prefer to surprise opponents, make a few quick attacks, and then flee. They prefer to throw their javelins (which they call boks) from cover or the safety of their fortified villages, then close to finish off opponents with their bites or short swords (grooka, to the cay-men).
Some groups of cay-men make use of war chariots pulled by small lizards and special grenades filled with an explosive alchemical substance prepared by their shamans.
Hold Breath (Ex): A cay-man can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.
Skills
Cay-men have a +2 racial bonus on Craft (stonemasonry), Handle Animal, and Swim checks.
Cay-men Characters
Cay-men characters possess the following racial traits.
[LIST][*]Tiny size: +2 bonus to Armor Class, +2 bonus on attack rolls, +8 bonus on Hide checks, -8 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ½ those of Medium characters.
[*]A cay-man’s base land speed is 20 feet.
[*]Darkvision out to 90 feet.
[*]Racial Hit Dice: A cay-man begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +0.
[*]Racial Skills: A cay-man’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5
A good start I think. I do think you should take another look at ability adjustments. Str 10 for a Tiny creature is rather large, especially when you consider the standard halfling is -2 Str, +2 Dex as a small creature- my suggestion would be -4 Str and +4 Dex.
I see what you're saying, and I did have them with a -2 Str adjustment for a while (still considering it). I'm not completely sold on the Dex bonus (just because they're smaller they shouldn't necessarily be any more agile or graceful than a bigger creature).
I think the strength and carrying capacity tables are all kind of screwed up anyway- an "average" halfling (10 str with a -2 penalty = 8) still can somehow carry a maximum load of almost twice its body weight while the same average human can only carry a maximum load of a little over half its body weight; but yet the halfling has a strength penalty for some reason? Even though it's seemingly much stronger (proportionately) than the human?
Plus, I don't like that different sized creatures get penalized (or advantaged) twice over- once for their ability score penalty/bonus, then again with decreased/increased carrying capacity.
I'll look over things some more tonight. Ability scores are kind of rough, I find. Even when doing conversions of my own, I find that I don't always consistently give the same scores to a creature (if I stat it up and later come back to it or something).
The humorous thing I find with the ancestry in the Kobold vs. Cayma, and Kobolds from 3e:
Cayma are provably descended from dragons.
Dragons->(immortal interference)Wallara->(Herathian experiments)->=Shazak
Dragons->(immortal interference)Wallara->(Herathian experiments)->(+alligator) = Gurrash
Dragons->(immortal interference)Wallara->(Herathian experiments)->(+?) = Cayma
I'm not sure if it's a good idea to to tie shazak origins directly with the wallara. Although canon says that Gurrash and Cayma were created through herathian magic, that's not said for the Shazaks, that are with the herathian mages as far as 2000 BC. It's also said that the shazak language is basically the malpheggi language.
Although there's not much about either shazak and malpheggi at canon, much that we have match in order to link both lizard-men populations (both rather civilised lizard-men cultures, both known as mercenaries, both have Ka as their main Immortal), except that malpheggi are martriarchal, which is not true for Shazak.
However, both groups were quite distant from each other, indeed. This could be a problem to link then together, unless we assume that pehaps herathian mages bought malpheggi slaves/hired malpheggi mercenaries thanks to taymoran ships (and, BTW, they possibly mimicked taymoran culture as well). Could pehaps Taymora hint a connection between blackmoorian gatormen and modern gatormen?
There could be a Wallara/lizardfolk connection, but I'm not sure which, exactly. Pehaps their common roots (and pehaps with the Tortles as well) are as old as the Carnifex?
I'm not sure if it's a good idea to to tie shazak origins directly with the wallara. Although canon says that Gurrash and Cayma were created through herathian magic, that's not said for the Shazaks, that are with the herathian mages as far as 2000 BC. It's also said that the shazak language is basically the malpheggi language.
SPOILER from Savage Coast online manual and Red Steel:
Show
To the Herathians, however, the wallaras' knowledge of their secret was intolerable. Approximately 1,700 years ago, Herathians used captured wallaras in an experiment, infusing their essence into lizard men to create the more advanced specimens who eventually became the shazaks. The wallaran nation protested, and the Herathians feared that the wallaras would spread their secret. In response, the mages of Herath released a magical plague upon the wallaran nation, causing that people to forget all they knew about Herath and its inhabitants.
Approximately 1,700 years ago, Herathians used captured wallaras in an experiment, infusing their essence into lizard men to create the more advanced specimens who eventually became the shazaks.
Which means that Shazak are indeed more advanced than other similar lizardmen, but they're still lizardmen and they didn't evolved (magically or not) directly from wallaras ;)
I guess it would be something just like lupin and rakastan bloodlines, wallaran bloodline!
Does Draconic mean dragon language? Not even the Wallara speak that... If lizard-man is an option, I'd say that is the best choice.
From the same source:
The shazaks have their own language, called Shazak; it is nearly identical to the Malpheggi language used by the more civilised lizard folk in the rest of the world. Both the gurrash and the caymas speak their own dialects of Shazak. One proficiency slot spent on Shazak would enable a character to speak one dialect fluently and understand the basics of all three dialects, while two slots would allow complete fluency in all three.
Which is odd, since it implies that there are more advanced lizardmen cultures elsewhere. If they recieved wallaran blood, shouldn't they be the most advanced lizardmen civilisation?
Which means that Shazak are indeed more advanced than other similar lizardmen, but they're still lizardmen and they didn't evolved (magically or not) directly from wallaras ;)
I guess it would be something just like lupin and rakastan bloodlines, wallaran bloodline!
From the same source:
The shazaks have their own language, called Shazak; it is nearly identical to the Malpheggi language used by the more civilised lizard folk in the rest of the world. Both the gurrash and the caymas speak their own dialects of Shazak. One proficiency slot spent on Shazak would enable a character to speak one dialect fluently and understand the basics of all three dialects, while two slots would allow complete fluency in all three.
Which is odd, since it implies that there are more advanced lizardmen cultures elsewhere. If they recieved wallaran blood, shouldn't they be the most advanced lizardmen civilisation?
Well, I don't think its that cut and dry. From the SCMC entry on Lizard-Kin (which includes the Shazak):
The lizard kin of the Orc's Head Peninsula were created by the Herathians about 1700 years ago, using captured wallaras as raw material.
Well, I don't think its that cut and dry. From the SCMC entry on Lizard-Kin (which includes the Shazak):
Good point! Hm, that really makes one wonder, since it almost contradict with some other info about the lizardmen... Well, the wallaras indeed were used for creating the three OHP lizardkin, but it's rather odd to imagine the shazak as modified wallaras, unless the wallaras are as much lizardmen as any other lizardmen around Mystara, such as the Malppheggi. And there is still the language issue, they probably got it from the malpheggi lizardmen or the other way around.
It really looks like that the SCMC disconsidered all other lizardkin races on Mystara except those at the SC, since it says:
The wallaras (sometimes called chameleon men) are the oldest of the lizard kin races and are descended from dragons.
It does sound like it's ignoring that other lizardkin races exist at other regions of Mystara and also ignoring that it did also exist during blackmoor era, and especially ignoring the Carnifex era!
So, Wallara and Lizardmen were base stock for the Shazak.
It makes sense that the SCMC would not consider other lizardmen races since they don't have any effect on the SC.
I'm still not really understanding what everyone refers to as the Carnifex. I've seen some references in the vaults, but nothing in my canon documents (the only intelligent dinosaur was Ka). Are they canon at all?
I'm still not really understanding what everyone refers to as the Carnifex. I've seen some references in the vaults, but nothing in my canon documents (the only intelligent dinosaur was Ka). Are they canon at all?
Check module M3 or M4 (the one by Moldvay- I forget which- can't even think of the name offhand, but that's where they were introduced.) There isn't much information given on them, and not even a proper statblock.
The way I read it is that the Herathians used captured lizardmen, and used magic to take some vital essence (spiritual, intellectual, physical?) from the wallara and place it into the lizardmen, making them the advanced lizardmen known as the Shazak. The Shazak retained the memories of their lizardman lives, but were more noble and intelligent than regular lizardmen.
So, Wallara and Lizardmen were base stock for the Shazak.
I see what you're talking, and I guess we were thinking more or less the same thing
Indeed, comparing the Shazak with the also advanced Malpheggi lizardmen, the first seems to me more noble than the latter. They also seems to have a more advanced culture (with written language). I'm not sure how much this have to do with external influences (they're surounded by the advanced herathians and bellaynish peoples), the environment changes (bayou swamp to drier forest) and the HW Spell of Preservation, but I'd bet that the wallara essence helped them as well ;)
It makes sense that the SCMC would not consider other lizardmen races since they don't have any effect on the SC.
Yes, but that doesn't mean they should pretend that other lizardmen simply don't exist at all! Or if they were considering the other lizardmen, pehaps they were intending a retcon here, making the Shazak the first lizardmen, direct descendents from the wallara?
I'm still not really understanding what everyone refers to as the Carnifex. I've seen some references in the vaults, but nothing in my canon documents (the only intelligent dinosaur was Ka). Are they canon at all?
I'm not sure how much is canon and how much is fanon, but AFAIK the carnifex is canon and appears at the M3 Twilight Calling
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd/dd-m3.htm
I'm not sure how much is canon and how much is fanon, but AFAIK the carnifex is canon and appears at the M3 Twilight Calling
That's the one. Funny, I could remember all the names of all the other Master level adventures but that one. (Probably because it's my least favorite- Moldvay seemed a little rushed on this one- lack of statblock for Carnifex is one example.)
As far as what is canon about them, pretty much all that adventure says is that they were a humanoid saurian race (about 7' tall) that, in ancient times, gained a powerful mastery over magic. They became a danger to the cosmos, and so the Immortals imprisoned them in another dimension far from the Prime, that could only be accessed with keys scattered across several other dimensions and guarded by powerful entities.
Everything beyond that is pretty much fan work- largely done by Geoff Gander and James Mishler, as I recall it.
I think it would be pretty safe to say that the Carnifex preceded mankind (canon) but postdated Ka (fanon), regardless of where else you place them in the scheme of Mystaran history. Probably descendants of Ka, either directly or indirectly.
Does Draconic mean dragon language? Not even the Wallara speak that... If lizard-man is an option, I'd say that is the best choice.
For a more strictly Mystara-based campaign, I'd definitely alter the language choices myself (and if I or anyone else ever gets around to a Red Steel/Savage Coast adaptation, I'd heartily recommend it).
For the purposes of the stat block, I was just using generic 3.5 terms. Per the MM, most lizard-kin (lizardfolk, troglodytes, kobolds) speak Draconic, so I went with that.
Indeed, comparing the Shazak with the also advanced Malpheggi lizardmen, the first seems to me more noble than the latter. They also seems to have a more advanced culture (with written language).
Source seem to vary a bit on exactly how advanced/powerful the Malpheggi lizardmen were prior to their extinction. The HW presentation doesn't make them terribly formidable, but the way they are presented in Gaz2 depicts them as being very powerful sorcerers indeed. Perhaps the desert-dwelling and forest-dwelling lizardmen got to be more advanced as a civilization than their swamp-dwelling kin did?
(That's another thing that's always bugged me that I've mentioned before; how throughout so many incarnations of D&D/AD&D the lizardfolk are depicted as swamp dwellers. Having lived in the southwest US for most of my life, it's my experience that lizards are more customarily desert dwellers- or at least are very prominent desert dwellers- than swamp dwellers. Always struck me as odd, which is why I really liked how they were included in Gaz2 as part of Ylaruam's history... even if they seem to have somehow migrated back to being swamp dwellers in subsequent products.)
Yes, but that doesn't mean they should pretend that other lizardmen simply don't exist at all! Or if they were considering the other lizardmen, pehaps they were intending a retcon here, making the Shazak the first lizardmen, direct descendents from the wallara?
Who knows? Even in the source material (VotPA), the gator-men were supposedly the result of creation by the Herathians post-3000 BC, but canonically speaking, gator-men existed around Blackmoor (in swampy areas of the Duchy of Ten) pre-GRoF. Even the cay-men were originally introduced as being inhabitants of the Blight Swamp in western Karameikos- a far distance from the Savage Coast.
I think there probably wasn't much thought put into tying the lizard-kin of the Red Steel in with the rest of Mystara, as at least to a certain extent, Red Steel was intended to sort of stand on its own as a campaign setting apart from the Gazetteer line (kind of like Al-Qadim and the Forgotten Realms were).
As far as what is canon about them, pretty much all that adventure says is that they were a humanoid saurian race (about 7' tall) that, in ancient times, gained a powerful mastery over magic.
I always wondered how the carnifex look like. Okay, reptilian-like, something more like a dinosaur... but which dinosaur? I always pictured them in my mind as a velociraptor-like race, but I'm not sure if that's how they're suposed to be, or if there were other different saurian races within carnifex domains (why not an ankylosaurus-like tortle ancestor? ;) )
Source seem to vary a bit on exactly how advanced/powerful the Malpheggi lizardmen were prior to their extinction. The HW presentation doesn't make them terribly formidable, but the way they are presented in Gaz2 depicts them as being very powerful sorcerers indeed. Perhaps the desert-dwelling and forest-dwelling lizardmen got to be more advanced as a civilization than their swamp-dwelling kin did?
SC confirms that while the Shazak stayed at the Bayou, their civilisation was stagnated. I guess this is a good hint that you could be right about the Malpheggi.
OTOH, when comparing the Shazak with those desert and forest Malpheggi, the latter was obviously more advanced than the first never was or is. And the wallara essence was suposed to make them brighter... hm, that's odd, unless the herathian spell actually also worked on the Shazak as well, and that's why the herathians dumped them at the Bayou.
Who knows? Even in the source material (VotPA), the gator-men were supposedly the result of creation by the Herathians post-3000 BC, but canonically speaking, gator-men existed around Blackmoor (in swampy areas of the Duchy of Ten) pre-GRoF.
Pehaps the taymoran were able to preserve some of the original gatormen and some were sold to Herath, that used the Shazak to recreated the gatoren in great numbers?
Even the cay-men were originally introduced as being inhabitants of the Blight Swamp in western Karameikos- a far distance from the Savage Coast.
This one is quite odd! Does it mean that officially we do have cayma at Karameikos?
I think there probably wasn't much thought put into tying the lizard-kin of the Red Steel in with the rest of Mystara, as at least to a certain extent, Red Steel was intended to sort of stand on its own as a campaign setting apart from the Gazetteer line (kind of like Al-Qadim and the Forgotten Realms were).
Yes, Red Steel indeed was intended for that. Still, most of it (if not all of it, except for this wallara/lizardkin SCMC thing) is compatible with the rest of Mystara and even works best using both at the same time (the WotI had a great impact at the region, for example).
And even stranger is that other SC books appearently contradicts these SCMC entries...
Or they're all true, but it's simply not well explained. Pehaps the wallarans are, actually, "good" carnifex? This would explain how they're so wise and respected by dragons (BTW, what's the connection between the canifex and dragons?).
I always wondered how the carnifex look like. Okay, reptilian-like, something more like a dinosaur... but which dinosaur?
Having gotten tired of all saurians looking too similar myself, I tend to imagine the Carnifex as more Trandoshan in appearance. Less of the giant snout, long tail type that all Lizardfolk, Trogs, etc. all seem to have. Though I'm still not sold on the idea of them developing clothing. Doesn't seem like something any non-mammalian race would develop for themselves, though I could see clothing-like indicators of station, etc.
This one is quite odd! Does it mean that officially we do have cayma at Karameikos?
Depends on how official you consider the source. The cay-men were introduced in the adventure insert "Treasure of the Hideous One" that came with the AC2: Combat Shield accessory. In it, as I noted, they are depicted as living on an island in the Blight Swamp in Karameikos- rather explicitly so (there's background information on Karameikos- however brief- there, and- even though the map could be set pretty much anywhere- the journey the PCs take is described as being through western Karameikos.)
Yes, Red Steel indeed was intended for that. Still, most of it (if not all of it, except for this wallara/lizardkin SCMC thing) is compatible with the rest of Mystara and even works best using both at the same time (the WotI had a great impact at the region, for example).
The aranea and phanaton histories of the SC never quite gelled with previous sources, either. Notably, M5: Talons of Night (which has the phanaton originating as planar spider servants from an outer plane, and the aranea as a twisted crossbreeding experiment between planar spiders and unintelligent giant spiders). All of the racial origin stuff needs a bit of tweaking all around.
(BTW, what's the connection between the canifex and dragons?).
I'm pretty sure nothing is made of it in the module itself (I don't even think there are any dragons in it, actually). I'd imagine that they are probably distantly related at best, if dragons are even considered to be native to Mystara (and don't trace their origins elsewhere- to other worlds or planes).
I forget who the Great One's patron was- DM's description mentions Terra, but I don't recall if that's canon or not. I'd look at his history, though, and Ka's. It may be that dragons preceded the dinosaurs (and Ka), which would make the Carnifex very distantly related (if at all) indeed.
Having gotten tired of all saurians looking too similar myself, I tend to imagine the Carnifex as more Trandoshan in appearance. Less of the giant snout, long tail type that all Lizardfolk, Trogs, etc. all seem to have. Though I'm still not sold on the idea of them developing clothing. Doesn't seem like something any non-mammalian race would develop for themselves, though I could see clothing-like indicators of station, etc.
I guess it's more or less like I imagine them
Actually, they look much like wallara, don't they? ;)
The aranea and phanaton histories of the SC never quite gelled with previous sources, either. Notably, M5: Talons of Night (which has the phanaton originating as planar spider servants from an outer plane, and the aranea as a twisted crossbreeding experiment between planar spiders and unintelligent giant spiders). All of the racial origin stuff needs a bit of tweaking all around.
Yes, it's obvious there were some retcons for many things at the SC, being the whole SC presented at the VotPA a retcon itself, latter retconned againg by RS. However, those retcons still used much of what was previously estabilished, basically twisting it (phanatons were indeed aranean pets for some time, and it's still possible that araneas are that crossbreeding; it doesn't explain the relation between SC araneas and phanatons with those we can found elsewhere, however) or sending it to the SC past (X9).
I'm pretty sure nothing is made of it in the module itself (I don't even think there are any dragons in it, actually). I'd imagine that they are probably distantly related at best, if dragons are even considered to be native to Mystara (and don't trace their origins elsewhere- to other worlds or planes).
No canon origin for mystaran dragons, then? Hm...
I always wondered how the carnifex look like. Okay, reptilian-like, something more like a dinosaur... but which dinosaur? I always pictured them in my mind as a velociraptor-like race, but I'm not sure if that's how they're suposed to be, or if there were other different saurian races within carnifex domains (why not an ankylosaurus-like tortle ancestor? ;) )
I've always described them as humanoid velociraptors, it just seemed to fit them in my mind.
I've always described them as humanoid velociraptors, it just seemed to fit them in my mind.
Yeah, that's how I have seen them aswell. I like the comparison to Trandoshans though. It even gives me some further ideas about their nature...
My understanding is that the original lizard races were the servants of the Carnifex and the later Serpentine Empire. Many of these races were destroyed during the Great Rain of Fire, but were recreated on the Savage Coast. This helps explain why there are Gatormen and similar races are around in the Blackmoor era without contradicting the SC material.
Havard
My understanding is that the original lizard races were the servants of the Carnifex and the later Serpentine Empire. Many of these races were destroyed during the Great Rain of Fire, but were recreated on the Savage Coast. This helps explain why there are Gatormen and similar races are around in the Blackmoor era without contradicting the SC material.
Yes, that's exactly how I imagine the situation as well, except that I believe not all of the lizard races were extinct, especially lizardmen (and likely troglodytes and yuan-tis as well; if the tortle have any connection with the carnifex era, than it's another race that made it into the moderm Mystara). For the gatormen, if they were artifially created during blackmoor era (or before, during the carnifex era), posisbly they were exctint, but herathians got scrolls teaching how to make more of them, possibly thanks to taymora.
The world may never have a definitive- or at least universally accepted- solution.