I'm going to be taking over the DMing reins for my gaming group and I would like to introduce them to Spelljammer. Does anyone have any idea of how close current edition levels are to 2nd edition AD&D? I'd like to use old modules, but I don't have a boatload of spare time as I did when I was single. It would be really helpful if I could use printed adventures with as little modification as possible, but I don't want to have my players try an adventure that's too difficult for them. I guess this question really applies to all 2nd edition stuff, but I'm primarily interested in Spelljammer at this time.
Thanks!
i would say your best bet is to decide how challenging you want an opponent to be, and just make something that fits the concept of the old NPCs.
that is, of course, time consuming, so you may wish to consider using "standard" NPCs and such, if you can...
They gave the neogi ships to the drow.
No giff.
No mention of crystal spheres.
No mention of phlogiston.
No "create-a-ship" mode.
No notes on how they got the stats for the ships they have!
Only a handful of old ships (and a few new ships) are presented.
Still, it's a starting point. In the campaign I'm running I briefly had the party out in space, more or less under these new rules (with some tweaking, of course).
A basic 3.0 update was put out in an issue of Dungeon/Polyhedron magazine. They made a new, self-contained little galaxy, a mini campaign of sorts. It's really cool, but...
They gave the neogi ships to the drow.
No giff.
No mention of crystal spheres.
No mention of phlogiston.
No "create-a-ship" mode.
No notes on how they got the stats for the ships they have!
Only a handful of old ships (and a few new ships) are presented.
Still, it's a starting point. In the campaign I'm running I briefly had the party out in space, more or less under these new rules (with some tweaking, of course).
no SJ gravity... no SJ air envelope... no arcane/mercane... no tinker gnomes... no s'cro... no EIN... or any other SJ organisation for that matter... basically no SJ flavour.
you could say that shadows of the spider moon is essentially just a similar concept to spelljammer, rather than being much of a conversion.
no SJ gravity... no SJ air envelope... no arcane/mercane... no tinker gnomes... no s'cro... no EIN... or any other SJ organisation for that matter... basically no SJ flavour.
you could say that shadows of the spider moon is essentially just a similar concept to spelljammer, rather than being much of a conversion.
Admittedly, I went into storage to get all of my old 2nd-ED SJ books so I could add some of that old "flavor." I just made Shadows of the Spider Moon a new sphere, and used the stuff that they put out to convert other old SJ things. Which wasn't terribly easy.
Unfortunately, I doubt we'll get much more than that from Wizards. There was Shadows, and I know that DRAGON had one or two articles where they updated the giff and such. ::sigh:: I just got done watching the Firefly series and Serenity, and it made me wish that there was more SpellJammer.
Ship Conversion Rules:
- Ship Hit Points = Hull Points x 3
- Hardness = The Hardness of the material the ship is primarily made of.
- For each point of SR the ship moves at 30ft.
- Spelljamming speed is still the same.
- Crew is still the same
- Landing Remains the same
- Maneuver Class: A = Perfect
B = Good
C = Average
D = Poor
E = Clumsy
F and Lower is rounded up to Clumsy
- Armor Rating = Ship Size Modifier + Material Hardness as a Natural Armor Bonus + Pilot Dex Modifier.
- Standard Armaments remain mostly the same, but there are only light and heavy versions of the catapult.
- Cargo remains the same
- I use the following size chart (it is only used for spelljamming ships), this chart is based on keel length, but if the ships beam length exceeds 1/5 the keel length increase its size by one category
thus, while actual catapults as you would find them on groundling worlds made little sense to me, i certainly think it's reasonable to imagine a device which launches rocks on a much flatter trajectory, similar to a ballista except that it hurls boulders instead of ballista bolts.
not that i'm saying ballistas wouldn't be used, but i'm just having a hard time seeing them do as much damage as a good sized rock would. not to mention that you could use the proposed catapult launcher to hurl things like barrels of oil (with some source of ignition, of course), multiple small objects (a la jettison) people (if they have some sort of gliding ability, and could use a boost, etc) and so forth. on the other hand, a ballista isn't going to launch much of anything that isn't shaped an awful lot like a ballista bolt.
so sure, traditional catapults like we might imagine? seems a bit fishy. but really, a device that throws good sized boulders is just too useful to not exist, imo. even if it's just a big ballista with a scoop on it.
To be sure, the ballista to is more than capable of smashing holes in hulls. But it is also an effective sniper weapon, making it a true multi-role weapon.
So...
A catapult can:
- strike at exposed weaponry
- do general hull damage
- penetrate the hull to strike at internally mounted weaponry
- make a sincere effort to penetrate through to the helm (but the hull will be likely shatterred and unusable long before you damage the helm)
A ballista can:
- do all of the above
- and snipe at individual soldiers
I'm not sure of the value of catapults. for RW weapons, the catapult did much more damage per hit, but the ballista could reliably hit the same spot repeatedly, which is a difference that d20 doesn't model well.
and a ballistapult (which i shall use to define my stone throwing machines with flatter trajectories) have no reasons they couldn't be almost (admittedly not quite, but close to) as accurate as a ballista. but you also forgot those other utilities of a stone thrower i mentioned... a stone thrower can fire "shot" ammunition and hit an area of crew, while minimizing damage to the ship. a stone thrower can hurl barrels, and many an oddly shaped thing, whereas something more or less has to be spear shaped to be fired out of a ballista. rock (especially if you're not too picky about shape etc) is easily available in wildspace. lumber, particularly straight lumber, and steel bolts, or spearheads, are not. a ship can stop by some random asteroid and resupply ballistapult ammo. not so easy to do for a regular ballista.
that being said, i could certainly see room for both. sometimes precision firing is indeed important, and in such cases, a ballista would be called for (as another example, you might want to harpoon an enemy rather than just smashing it). most of the time, imo, a ballistapult would be better, but certainly regular ballistas would be used also.
particularly if we're looking at an enemy ship made of stone or thick steel plating, though, i would see ballistapults being more useful. (imagine trying to take out a dwarven citadel with ballistas...)
basically, my point is that i can see room for both, but the ballistapult pulls slightly ahead in terms of practicality, imo.
(on a side note, 2e ship weapons are all screwy anyways, and i can't see much reason to use anything other than mass light catapults with properly trained crews and exceptional quality catapults that give +1 damage... or better yet, *magical* light catapults... which just feels somehow wrong to me. heavy weapons should be better...)
and a ballistapult (which i shall use to define my stone throwing machines with flatter trajectories)
I'd just call it a slingshot.
but I couldn't see one reason anyone on any of the planets in SOTSM would bother going into space . . .
Same reason people climb Mt. Everest: because it's there. For that matter, why do *we* bother sending people to the moon?
Wyvern
I didn't mind (too much) the lack of traditional Spelljammer elements in Shadow of the Spider Moon (as anyway I could convert and add them), but I couldn't see one reason anyone on any of the planets in SOTSM would bother going into space . . .
Well, for some reason or anther the elves banished the drow all the way to the moon! That's pretty harsh. So right there the elves and drow have incentive to spelljam.
Of course, I'm not sure why the elves decided on their moon, or how they figured out their first spelljamming vessel with which to accomplish this feat. Perhaps they had secret dealings with the Elven Imperial Navy at some point?
Ok, so we have reason for elves and drow (although the elves are still suspect). The illithids aren't native to "spiderspace," so they have a reason. You're right, the other races really don't have any business in space, except that they've probably encountered spaceborne elves, drow, and mind flayers and thus have taken to the stars as well.
Ok, so we have reason for elves and drow (although the elves are still suspect). The illithids aren't native to "spiderspace," so they have a reason. You're right, the other races really don't have any business in space, except that they've probably encountered spaceborne elves, drow, and mind flayers and thus have taken to the stars as well.
Don't forget that the gnomes have basically lost their entire planet, while the dwarves were enslaved by the illithids. Halflings... well, they like to wander anyway, and they live alongside the elves IIRC, which would provide them with the opportunity for spelljamming.
Wyvern
Don't forget that the gnomes have basically lost their entire planet, while the dwarves were enslaved by the illithids. Halflings... well, they like to wander anyway, and they live alongside the elves IIRC, which would provide them with the opportunity for spelljamming.
Wyvern
Ok, so between myself and Wyvern we've pretty much reminded y'all why the various races in SotSM are spelljamming-capable. Anyone 'jamming in that sphere (or galaxy, however you want to run it) is either a visitor or has been forced into spelljamming in some way (by necessity, as a way to get rid of your unwanted cousins, slavery, etc.).
Overall, I really dig the little mini campaign they put together; I just wish there was more! I guess I'll go back to praying to Orcus that WotC will put out more support for this in their new website (the one that'll take over for Dragon magazine).
Good. I never liked crystal spheres or the flow; thought that they were kinda stupid though I do kinda like the idea of the Flow being a nebula of galactic size though. I like the idea of SJ but I do not think that the various settings should be accesible, they shold all be on alternate versions of the universe seeing as they all have a different cosmonolgy.
I like the way Hackjammer turned the Flow into a type of hyperspace. You still have Crystal Spheres, but they are only relevant to the Flow. If you never open a portal at the edge of a Sphere, you would continue in normal space. If you open said portal & enter the Flow, the Sphere is visible, and you can travel basically faster than light. Combines old SJ with the potential of keeping galaxies & solar systems.
I like the way Hackjammer turned the Flow into a type of hyperspace. You still have Crystal Spheres, but they are only relevant to the Flow. If you never open a portal at the edge of a Sphere, you would continue in normal space. If you open said portal & enter the Flow, the Sphere is visible, and you can travel basically faster than light. Combines old SJ with the potential of keeping galaxies & solar systems.
I missed something. Define: Hackjammer. Please.
As for different cosmologies, I treat them like different geographies. In deep space/phlogiston, the planes are cut off. Once you get inside a sphere/solar system, you can access the planes, but each system has its own planar geography/cosmology. Just as the worlds have their own unique land geography. I don't see why some people make a big deal out of this. Nobody ever said that all worlds in the D&D universe had to have the same cosmology. Makes more sense to me that they be different from world to world, same as all earthlike worlds wont have the same oceans & continents.
Wyvern
Hackjammer is from Kenser & Co. Hackmaster game. A parody of AD&D 1e mainly, though the rules are really close to 1e. Hackjammer was their take on Spelljammer.
Pretty much. I even hear at least one of the authors posts here fairly often...:D
I like the way Hackjammer turned the Flow into a type of hyperspace. You still have Crystal Spheres, but they are only relevant to the Flow. If you never open a portal at the edge of a Sphere, you would continue in normal space. If you open said portal & enter the Flow, the Sphere is visible, and you can travel basically faster than light. Combines old SJ with the potential of keeping galaxies & solar systems.
And if you read carefully enough, the option of Crystal Spheres as presented in original SJ (aka Spherewalls in realspace as well as the phlogiston) is there as well; its up to the GM to decide if he/she wants to use the classic SJ model or a more sci-fi flavored one
Pretty much. I even hear at least one of the authors posts here fairly often...:D
:P
Realizing that almost everything about Hackfaster is a parody of somebody's idea of how the game should be run, somebody who should be dragged out into the street and shot imho but I digress, how easy is it to convert hackfaster's drivel to 3.5 Ed D&D and is their SJ supplement actually worth getting?
Not any harder than the rest.
I'd just call it a slingshot.
That is a pretty descriptive name for Jaid's weapon.
@ Jaid: I hope you will write up a full description and submit it to Beyond the Moons at some point.
Good. I never liked crystal spheres or the flow; thought that they were kinda stupid though I do kinda like the idea of the Flow being a nebula of galactic size though. I like the idea of SJ but I do not think that the various settings should be accesible, they shold all be on alternate versions of the universe seeing as they all have a different cosmonolgy.
Hmm. So you are talking of Spelljammer minus Phlogiston minus Krynnspace (and therefore minus Tinker Gnomes and all their Spelljamming devices) minus Realmspace minus Greyspace (and therefore the Celestians). I'm not entirely sure how much of Spelljammer would be left if you subtract all of those elements. I'd rather play another space game that play a hobbled version of Spelljammer. I'd feel really ripped off if Spelljammer came back in a form similar to the one you just described.
I've got to say that one of the reasons I love Spelljammer is the potential to take players from one campaign setting and fly them to another campaign setting.
Having said that, I know that a lot of people dislike certain elements of Spelljammer and there would probably be as many people for you as against you on specific things you have said.
I would love for Wizards of the Coast to put crystal spheres and a basic description of Spelljamming into the 4th Edition SRD, so that DMs playing Spelljammer could go out and buy any 3rd party d20 System campaign setting and plug it into their SJ campaign.
If Spelljammer rules and Spelljammer fluff were available separately then fans of the megasetting could use Spelljammer to connect all other campaign settings while opponants of the megasetting could use it with a single campaign setting (to make their own personal Shadows of the Spider Moon style games).
As for different cosmologies, I treat them like different geographies. In deep space/phlogiston, the planes are cut off. Once you get inside a sphere/solar system, you can access the planes, but each system has its own planar geography/cosmology. Just as the worlds have their own unique land geography. I don't see why some people make a big deal out of this. Nobody ever said that all worlds in the D&D universe had to have the same cosmology. Makes more sense to me that they be different from world to world, same as all earthlike worlds wont have the same oceans & continents.
2nd edition D&D tried to go down the single "set of outer plane" route. Spelljammer started the process by converting parallel prime material planes into a single prime material plane divided into wildspace and phlogiston by the crystal shells. But Planescape continued the process by giving gods from Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms homes in the Great Wheel cosmology.
I think that is why certain people "resent" Spelljammer and/or Planescape. Both campaign settings make convenient whipping boys for anyone who thinks that 2nd edition "broke" things that were "working" in 1st edition.
My personal point of view is that people who don't like things should just ignore them. People who dislike Spelljammer should avoid spacefaring campaigns and people who dislike Planescape should avoid planewalking campaigns.
However, I don't agree that people shouldn't make a big deal out of this. A return to the separate cosmologies presented in 1st edition can actually improve both Spelljammer and Planescape games. So I'd actually like to see this made into a big deal (in a constructive way).
From the point of view of a Spelljammer DM you can use the current crystal sphere's cosmology as a simple way to determine if a cleric can regain (high level) spells.
(So a cleric of Reorx from Krynnspace needs access to The Hidden Vale to regain full spells. Because Realmspace doesn't have the Hidden Vale in its cosmology, it is easy to decide that a cleric of Reorx would be limited. This inferred rule gives a good explanation for NPC clerics who remain in one crystal sphere.)
And from the point of view of a Planescape DM you can add a new set of outer planes for every TSR, WotC or 3rd party publisher. That turns the planes into an endless maze (presumably with the Great Wheel at the centre of planewalking activity).
(So to get from one plane to another non-connected plane a planewalker would need to find a third plane that is connected to them both.)
And if you combine both Spelljammer and Planescape you can infer a "Planejammer Campaign Setting" where some crystal spheres are affected by outsider factions involved in the Blood War and other crystal spheres have little or no contact with planewalkers or outsiders. You could even have sealed crystal spheres that can only be accessed via planewalking.
Contact Home Power (Concordance of Arcane Space page 22), becomes a spell that temporarily punches a hole through the local cosmology in an attempt to access the home plane of a cleric's god. We are told that this spell sometimes succeeds and sometimes fails. Although, it would involve an element of admin, I'd be tempted to give each crystal sphere a saving throw against this spell based on how its cosmology works.
(So to use my previous example of our cleric of Reorx who was visiting Realmspace, he would need to use the shared cosmology of Realmspace and Krynnspace to form a new connection to the Hidden Vale. Both spheres have access to the astral plane, so he could use that, but he might have trouble forging a foreign connection through the Gate of Souls. The Gate of Souls should have a pretty good saving throw. I'd even say that it should be easier for a cleric of Helm in Krynnspace to use the astral plane to make a connection back to his god, in the Realmspace cosmology.)
Priest Icons* (The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook page 76) become a storage device that can only be filled when the home plane, of the god they are dedicated to, is available.
* = I'd be tempted to rename Priest Icons as something like Cleric Icons or Divine Icons if I was doing a 3e conversion.
The Priests "stronghold rules" (hidden on page 103-104 of The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook) are an amazingly interesting rule. They effectively allow mortals to create new connections between the material plane and other planes. Combine this with spheres that have different cosmologies and you give spacefarers the power to create "shortcuts" in the maze of outer planes.
Spacefarering clerics might not realise that they are forming holes in the fabric of the outer planes that allow the outsider servants of their gods to flow into the local cosmolgy of a crystal sphere. So in the year it takes to form a permanent connection, you can throw all sorts of local outsider factions at them. In a sphere with strong local religion, like Krynnspace, you could also have the local spacefarers treat a clerical stronghold as an affront to their religion. You can take expand Planewalker idea of the Blood War to more complex level by connecting unimportant seeming spacefaring temples in a battle between entire pantheons of gods.
That rule only connects the specific plane of the god to the prime material plane, but if you apply it to a planewalking cleric's stronghold, you could use it to build new "gate towns". However, given that the connection implied by the CSH rules seems to be a one way thing, you would probably need two friendly factions to exchange clerics and both build gate towns at the same time.
The Spelljammer/Planescape universe from 2e was complex, but pretty much static. If you throw in an unlimited number of cosmologies and convert these CSH rules to 3rd edition, you can create a more dynamic universe where the players (or NPC adversaries) can actually help change which gods are available in a given crystal sphere.
And I definately think that is exciting enough that we should make a big deal about it. I would love to see SJ and PS fans get together and make something that could be shared by Beyond the Moons and Planewalker.
That is a pretty descriptive name for Jaid's weapon.
@ Jaid: I hope you will write up a full description and submit it to Beyond the Moons at some point.
i don't consider it to be a new weapon, i consider it to be what a catapult actually is in spelljammer terms... it isn't like a groundling catapult, it just functions on similar principles (ie store potential kinetic energy in a "spring" and transfer that into a rock through a lever).
i would just use the standard stats for a catapult... i've never been one to change the mechanics just for the sake of flavor. if the old mechanics can represent what i want, i don't bother making something up, i just reflavor it and call it a day.
i have, however, recently been considering something that could be fired from a ballista that is essentially a really thick, blunt spear/bolt designed to hit with the force of a catapult's hurled stones. but i have been considering setting up a thread with a bunch of house rules i'm considering and asking people to pick them apart =S
was that the characters didn't know what the actual arrangement of the outer planes where, so the
sages of each sphere would build a cosmology based on what outer planes could be accessed, and how the deities of
that sphere interacted with each other.
(So to use my previous example of our cleric of Reorx who was visiting Realmspace, he would
need to use the shared cosmology of Realmspace and Krynnspace to form a new connection to the Hidden Vale. Both
spheres have access to the astral plane, so he could use that, but he might have trouble forging a foreign
connection through the Gate of Souls. The Gate of Souls should have a pretty good saving throw. I'd even say that it
should be easier for a cleric of Helm in Krynnspace to use the astral plane to make a connection back to his god, in
the Realmspace cosmology.)
Actually, considering the attitude of the Krynn deities, I'd make it the other way round, they've got only a small
problem helping a devout follower who's 'away from home', but they're not going to let any interlopers from
outside poach on their patch!
Cleric Stronghold idea - snipped for brevity.
Thats a very interesting idea, though an inter-sphere holy war would be very messy!
Charles