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Population for dinner, sustainability?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
borys_son
Jun 04, 2007 3:19:02 Well looking at some of the populations of Ravenloft domains, I wonder how they sustain their populations with all the feeding/murder?

True every week(guesstimate) a group of 5-10 wanderers might enter a domain. And those naughty Vistani boys may help breed(but only in certain domains). Also not every domain may have hungry wolves, brain craving zombies, murderous despots... ah.

Lets say on average a person dies every day in a domain thats 365 people a year.
#2
zombiegleemax
Jun 04, 2007 6:26:32 Well, as has been noted in the source material:

A) Most people living in Ravenloft in fact never have any run-ins with the supernatural (or only do so in the most brief and unobvious of ways). So the ghouls and goblins of the domains do seem to be holding back at least a bit, nor do many of them need to kill people constantly in order to "survive" (werebeasts can consume flesh from other beings than sentients, vampires can feed shallowly, a lot of other creatures act more like degenerate tyrants or serial killers than mass murderers, stirking only occasionally). With the material primarily focused on the events and situations that create a potential for adventures, it is small wonder that the place nonetheless comes across as a meat grinder (which it also to some extent is), but it does not by itself mean that supernaturals preying upon the population is a major issue for maintaining sustainability.

B) Furthermore, it's not clear that one person dying every day, or even five or ten dying every day would be all that significant a demographic factor. People die of "unnatural" causes all the time, after all, and historically such was far more often the case than is today. What kept populations constant was, among other things, higher birth rates, with families as a result having the potential to be larger. Of course, infant mortality and the like kept this down in turn, but we can in fact be allowed to "cheat" a little and say that many more people make it to adult age, and fewer die from "natural unnatural" causes in Ravenloft than would in the corresponding historical periods it depicts.

C) It needs to be reitirated that Ravenloft is not a natural place in any sense of the word. It is an artificially sustained enviroment capable of snatching new populations from the entire Prime Material Plane, as well as possibly creating new people "from whole cloth" if the Dark Powers so wish. With the control that the Powers exert, it may well be that they likewise are able to "stack the deck" a little to make sure their playthings do not wipe one another out too easily (if they can create that situation regarding the inability to ever truly and completely cleanse the lands of evil, making Darklords virtually immortal, and so on, it's not too far a stretch to think they've manipulated the laws of their "world" just enough for the conditions suggested in point B to be present).
#3
The_Jester
Jun 04, 2007 9:34:07 I always like to assume the only people who die are a couple people in each domain and anyone who dies during an adventure. Other than the ones the PCs directly see there are no other deaths.
#4
humanbing
Jun 04, 2007 12:00:00 I always wondered about Falkovnia, where Drakov demands a nightly death by staking.

That's 365 deaths a year, as you say. And not counting the huge number of people in prisons and labor camps.

Do the numbers add up?
#5
zombiegleemax
Jun 04, 2007 15:24:47
I always wondered about Falkovnia, where Drakov demands a nightly death by staking.

That's 365 deaths a year, as you say. And not counting the huge number of people in prisons and labor camps.

Do the numbers add up?

Interesting question... it should not be an issue in principle, since Drakov has enough men to have thrown them at relatively regular intervals in devastating wars against Darkon (and at least once pretty much everywhere else as well), so 365 more (or even 3650) should not matter... But I don't know if official statistics correspond to the huge mass of people claimed to be at Drakov's disposal. This ties in with another situation: the Vampyre lord of Lekar (Vladimir Ludzig?) whose packs feed upon that city's slums. By all accounts, that all *does* rack up a huge body count, and it seems like there could only be so much of a slum to devour... Perhaps Falkovnia should indeed be assumed to have the same accelerated aging in the population as did Tovag...
#6
kwdblade
Jun 05, 2007 13:48:08 Falkovnia is one of the larger domains, almost 65,000 people, and I assume that number doesn't include prisoners who are captured from beyond its borders. While all that war, feeding and killing might add up, i'm sure the Dark Powers make sure that Vlad is "satisfied". With no men to fight his wars or sacrifice on stakes, he wouldn't be much of a Dark Lord.

I'm sure that if it wasn't for the Dark Powers though, that Vlad would of run of people a long time ago. It's not like Falkovnia is a tourist attraction or anything...
#7
ravenloftlover347
Jun 07, 2007 17:03:09 But wouldn't it make more sense for the Dark Powers to torture him by allowing the population in his domain grow thin? Obviously, the populations don't diminish due to the influence of the Dark Powers, but the deaths of a lot of people should have a bigger impact.
#8
kwdblade
Jun 08, 2007 4:20:49 Perhaps it is. Who's to say how large Falkovnia was before Dead Man's Campaign and other wars.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jun 17, 2007 1:30:05
Well looking at some of the populations of Ravenloft domains, I wonder how they sustain their populations with all the feeding/murder?

True every week(guesstimate) a group of 5-10 wanderers might enter a domain. And those naughty Vistani boys may help breed(but only in certain domains). Also not every domain may have hungry wolves, brain craving zombies, murderous despots... ah.

Lets say on average a person dies every day in a domain thats 365 people a year.

To many times a group of adventurers of group of traverlers or a late night Caravan is suddenly surrounded by a bunch of swirling mist on hudreds if not thousands of worlds and are never heard from again with only a few survivors like a group of Well armed Adventuers, like your PCs, reaching a city or town and realizing "They aren't in Kansas anymore"

I am guessing that all the blood suckers and meat eaters attack and feed on the hundreds if not thousands of wanders that come in a night with the survivor rate being your 5 or 10 well armed if not just plain lucky wanderers a week.

In fact in a version of a Ravenloft campaign I just played my Pc was on Toril was surrounded by mist and then heard howling and was almost immediately attacked be Dread Wolves so someone must be thinking like me...lol

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 borys_son Jun 04, 2007 3:19:02	Well looking at some of the populations of Ravenloft domains, I wonder how they sustain their populations with all the feeding/murder? True every week(guesstimate) a group of 5-10 wanderers might enter a domain. And those naughty Vistani boys may help breed(but only in certain domains). Also not every domain may have hungry wolves, brain craving zombies, murderous despots... ah. Lets say on average a person dies every day in a domain thats 365 people a year.
#2 zombiegleemax Jun 04, 2007 6:26:32	Well, as has been noted in the source material: A) Most people living in Ravenloft in fact never have any run-ins with the supernatural (or only do so in the most brief and unobvious of ways). So the ghouls and goblins of the domains do seem to be holding back at least a bit, nor do many of them need to kill people constantly in order to "survive" (werebeasts can consume flesh from other beings than sentients, vampires can feed shallowly, a lot of other creatures act more like degenerate tyrants or serial killers than mass murderers, stirking only occasionally). With the material primarily focused on the events and situations that create a potential for adventures, it is small wonder that the place nonetheless comes across as a meat grinder (which it also to some extent is), but it does not by itself mean that supernaturals preying upon the population is a major issue for maintaining sustainability. B) Furthermore, it's not clear that one person dying every day, or even five or ten dying every day would be all that significant a demographic factor. People die of "unnatural" causes all the time, after all, and historically such was far more often the case than is today. What kept populations constant was, among other things, higher birth rates, with families as a result having the potential to be larger. Of course, infant mortality and the like kept this down in turn, but we can in fact be allowed to "cheat" a little and say that many more people make it to adult age, and fewer die from "natural unnatural" causes in Ravenloft than would in the corresponding historical periods it depicts. C) It needs to be reitirated that Ravenloft is not a natural place in any sense of the word. It is an artificially sustained enviroment capable of snatching new populations from the entire Prime Material Plane, as well as possibly creating new people "from whole cloth" if the Dark Powers so wish. With the control that the Powers exert, it may well be that they likewise are able to "stack the deck" a little to make sure their playthings do not wipe one another out too easily (if they can create that situation regarding the inability to ever truly and completely cleanse the lands of evil, making Darklords virtually immortal, and so on, it's not too far a stretch to think they've manipulated the laws of their "world" just enough for the conditions suggested in point B to be present).
#3 The_Jester Jun 04, 2007 9:34:07	I always like to assume the only people who die are a couple people in each domain and anyone who dies during an adventure. Other than the ones the PCs directly see there are no other deaths.
#4 humanbing Jun 04, 2007 12:00:00	I always wondered about Falkovnia, where Drakov demands a nightly death by staking. That's 365 deaths a year, as you say. And not counting the huge number of people in prisons and labor camps. Do the numbers add up?
#5 zombiegleemax Jun 04, 2007 15:24:47	I always wondered about Falkovnia, where Drakov demands a nightly death by staking. That's 365 deaths a year, as you say. And not counting the huge number of people in prisons and labor camps. Do the numbers add up? Interesting question... it should not be an issue in principle, since Drakov has enough men to have thrown them at relatively regular intervals in devastating wars against Darkon (and at least once pretty much everywhere else as well), so 365 more (or even 3650) should not matter... But I don't know if official statistics correspond to the huge mass of people claimed to be at Drakov's disposal. This ties in with another situation: the Vampyre lord of Lekar (Vladimir Ludzig?) whose packs feed upon that city's slums. By all accounts, that all does rack up a huge body count, and it seems like there could only be so much of a slum to devour... Perhaps Falkovnia should indeed be assumed to have the same accelerated aging in the population as did Tovag...
#6 kwdblade Jun 05, 2007 13:48:08	Falkovnia is one of the larger domains, almost 65,000 people, and I assume that number doesn't include prisoners who are captured from beyond its borders. While all that war, feeding and killing might add up, i'm sure the Dark Powers make sure that Vlad is "satisfied". With no men to fight his wars or sacrifice on stakes, he wouldn't be much of a Dark Lord. I'm sure that if it wasn't for the Dark Powers though, that Vlad would of run of people a long time ago. It's not like Falkovnia is a tourist attraction or anything...
#7 ravenloftlover347 Jun 07, 2007 17:03:09	But wouldn't it make more sense for the Dark Powers to torture him by allowing the population in his domain grow thin? Obviously, the populations don't diminish due to the influence of the Dark Powers, but the deaths of a lot of people should have a bigger impact.
#8 kwdblade Jun 08, 2007 4:20:49	Perhaps it is. Who's to say how large Falkovnia was before Dead Man's Campaign and other wars.
#9 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2007 1:30:05	Well looking at some of the populations of Ravenloft domains, I wonder how they sustain their populations with all the feeding/murder? True every week(guesstimate) a group of 5-10 wanderers might enter a domain. And those naughty Vistani boys may help breed(but only in certain domains). Also not every domain may have hungry wolves, brain craving zombies, murderous despots... ah. Lets say on average a person dies every day in a domain thats 365 people a year. To many times a group of adventurers of group of traverlers or a late night Caravan is suddenly surrounded by a bunch of swirling mist on hudreds if not thousands of worlds and are never heard from again with only a few survivors like a group of Well armed Adventuers, like your PCs, reaching a city or town and realizing "They aren't in Kansas anymore" I am guessing that all the blood suckers and meat eaters attack and feed on the hundreds if not thousands of wanders that come in a night with the survivor rate being your 5 or 10 well armed if not just plain lucky wanderers a week. In fact in a version of a Ravenloft campaign I just played my Pc was on Toril was surrounded by mist and then heard howling and was almost immediately attacked be Dread Wolves so someone must be thinking like me...lol