Athas is certainly an enduring setting but what is you that we all like so much.
What is it that draws us in and keeps us creating for ourselves and supporting the athas.org team ?
Couple of bits from me to get the ball rolling ......
Its the unknown stuff that as a dm you can throw at the players. You average player has a pretty good idea about most std MM critters but a lot of (my) players go to pieces faced with a tembo, silt horror or sand bride (or a hungry halfling ;) )
Its such a unique flavour and intensity - rich in history and larger than life characters.
...and hey - you gotta love that desert setting :D
...and hey - you gotta love that desert setting :D
The original Dark Sun campaign I played in was not straight by the campaign setting. It was like a mix between Dark Sun and Dune. The city-states were all like houses from the book dune, and they, yes competed for spice and dodged worms in the desert. The spice was actually more of mineral that the sorceror-kings used to stay immortal. So they competed for it and kept the refinement secret.
I really enjoyed it actually...and thought it was a beautiful mix of stories to make a very creative campaign world. Then the books came out with Rikus, Sadira, etc...and many players hated how it didn't go by the books. So the campaign fell apart.
EDIT: Oh yeah just remembered, it wasn't worms in the desert it was wyrms. They were large wingless dragon like wyrms (savage) that lived under the sand. The spice (mineral) was linked to them somehow. As the sorceror-kings consumed it, it slowly altered them into wyrms. Basically this is what happened to Borys, aka the dragon.
I was describing how DS was different to another role player who has played D&D but isn't a big fan of it. He liked the idea of feral halfling who will eat you and sneaky elves.
I'm not exactly a big purist either. I'll mine material for DS out of other settings source books or I'll use a Beguiler or Scout class which didn't even exist in 2nd ed. I just try to avoid classes that really don't fit the setting like Ninjas and perhaps Warlocks.
For the most part I lke most of what Athas.org has done but you only tend to hear about the 10% of the stuff I don't like and even then its often minor stuff like a few clases need work (Gladiator, Templar, minor Cleric stuff). I'm happy to throw out some sacred cows of 2nd ed to end up with a playable class.
I'm not a fan of the metaplot. Rajaat is a bit of a stupid idea and killing a Sorceror King was fine but killing over half of them was a bit much IMHO. Also the pace of the changes. Heres a cool new setting (91) and by 93 half the Kings were dead.
I guess thats the other part too. It's harsh. A very challenging setting. Like many here, I became disenchanted with the official sources when they started making things nicer and friendlier for the players. I'm gearing up for a campaign this fall and I'm using absolutely NONE of the changes that happened over the course of the novels and released adventures. I've even considered bumping it back 1,000 years in the timeline, prior to the original boxed set.
I loved how gritty it was and how dangerous it was. Before DS ever came out, I'd had an idea for running a campaign world wherein evil had won the, "epic-big-ole-bad-world-altering-cataclysmic" battle. You can imagine how thrilled I was to see DS come along.
I have purist tendencies but I'm the last one to force them on anyone but my players. There are lots of cool ideas on this forum and I'm just happy to see that I'm not alone in my enjoyment of the setting.
I love how different it is too. Nothing is standard for the most part. Gophers have psionics and they will kick your %#*#!
I guess thats the other part too. It's harsh. A very challenging setting. Like many here, I became disenchanted with the official sources when they started making things nicer and friendlier for the players. I'm gearing up for a campaign this fall and I'm using absolutely NONE of the changes that happened over the course of the novels and released adventures. I've even considered bumping it back 1,000 years in the timeline, prior to the original boxed set.
I loved how gritty it was and how dangerous it was. Before DS ever came out, I'd had an idea for running a campaign world wherein evil had won the, "epic-big-ole-bad-world-altering-cataclysmic" battle. You can imagine how thrilled I was to see DS come along.
I have purist tendencies but I'm the last one to force them on anyone but my players. There are lots of cool ideas on this forum and I'm just happy to see that I'm not alone in my enjoyment of the setting.
Next DS game I run will be 100 years before the Prism Pentad or 1000 years after it methinks.
The same has always been true for Raam, but now it is many times worse with the death of their queen. It's a constant street war. Balic has been segregated, and probably has some extreme shadow conflicts (pun intended) going on there. Draj has the appearance of normalcy, but the lack of templar spells has allowed the psionic users to manipulate their new "king."
The loss of half of the sorcerer kings leads to a decompensation of the setting, where things become more dangerous than before. The rules have changed, and at least with Andy or Kalak, you knew the rules and how to avoid trouble. Now, it's any body's guess what lands you in the slave pits.
Not to say that anyone is wrong. It is a different setting after the Verdant Passage. But not any easier for sure, unless the DM wants it to be.
I guess I fail to see how the campaign world became less gritty after the PP series. It is different to be sure, but not any less gritty.
Not to say that anyone is wrong. It is a different setting after the Verdant Passage. But not any easier for sure, unless the DM wants it to be.
I have to agree with cnahumck on this one. I know there is division over loving or hating the novels (personally - I liked 'em. :P) but Athas is still every bit as dangerous as it once was.
If I have one gripe it would be that I feel it was a shame that Paizo couldn't have worked more closely with the athas.org team to develop the athas articles printed in dragon and dungeon.
Opportunity missed I feel.
I agree with TV. Don't forget the things that have come to pass in the adventures that will turn everyone' attention to the tablelands. In Dragon's Crown, Psionics is cancelled out for at least a month (need to research exactly how long). This dampening field makes life difficult for the kreen tribes, and HORRIBLE for the Thor-Kreen and the Kreen Empire. Even if it only slightly touched the Kreen Empire, it would still have caused some concern and confusion that is likely to elicit some response, like invasion.
Then there is Dregoth's Godhood spell. All elemental magic on the planet goes out? SotL go into slumber? This will gain the attention of EVERYONE on the planet that relies on or is influenced by the elemental planes.
With the seven cities reduced to 3 SK's, Dregoth focused on his own goals, Oronis in hiding and Daskinor insane and catatonic, what hope is there for the Tablelands if the Kreen Empire invaded and the Deadlands stirred at the same time?
The feel is different than the original boxed set, but the danger is much increased. Those who stabilized the region are gone, never to return.
Thanks for the support Flindbar. I liked the books too, though even Denning said if he could rewrite the end of CS he would.
I wonder what he would have rewritten ???
And this is from Kevin Melka
Hope that this helps.
I think the "softening" of the setting was meant to be the calm before the storm, the cool refreshing breeze before the sh*t hit the fan. Word is there was going to be a an invasion by Rhulisti returning from the Messenger, and it would have been revealed that most of the rest of Athas was populated by the Kreen. And in a campaign setting expansion that was all but completed (but never releasec) which I possess but am obligated not to share, it is revealed that to the south of the Tablelands on the Obsidian Plains, there were huge empires of undead who were kept from invading the Tablelands for the sole reason they didn't know it existed and was populated. Again, this is for all intents and purposes CANON, and anyone from Athas.org will back me up on this. The setting got cancelled right before it was going to become even more deadly and intense. These factors only increased my affection for the setting. Dark Sun was in no way going to remain a relatively nice place to be. The whole setting was going to become almost a worse place than Baator to be, and more deadly and intense than any other setting. No place would have been safe, not even unexplored lands, the sky, or the region of outer space surrounding Athas itself. So anyone who considers the revised setting to have ruined or harmed the Dark Sun setting, I respectfully ask you to take these factors and conditions into consideration. The more hospitable setting was a necessity in order to have any hope at all of surviving what was to come. I cite unpublished materials and the word of setting author Troy Denning himself to back up my words in this regard.
While true this is kinda stupid really. Space halflings and a world full of Kreen. While deadly it is very Forgotten Realms crisis of the year scenario and alot of DS fans don't really like the metaplot or more specifically they way it was done. The original boxed set was hinting at Kalak taking a dive but they went a bit to far a bit to quickly IMHO. Its not really canon as it wasn't released and you never know how it would have been changed before the final release or if it was just a few ideas.
I always thought making Athas seem a bit nicer was to appeal to more people to buy the setting as it was never really popular in a mass market sort of way. Very few D&D players I have met have played Dark Sun and virtually all of them who have were in our gaming group circa 95 or were in that group and DMed games for DS newbs. Last DS campaign I ran was with a group who never played DS before. Once they got to level 11 they knew that some of the Sorceror Kings were Dragons (or baby dragons as they called them), one of the players knew Borys was the Dragon from out of game knowledge, and they also knew of Avangions but I don't know if they knew what they were.
Some of them didn't like it so much and felt they were under equipped but I check their character sheets and in most cases they had slightly more equipment than the recommended wealth guidelines in the DMG. We had 5 players then but I don't think I could find that many know willing to play Darksun. The brutality of the world appeals to some people but turns more people away in my experience. IMC Wizards have a slightly easier time of it than implied in Defilers and Preservers of Athas- that or people play Psions instead although the Wizard did pretend she was a archer (Fighter 1/WizardX). Her character died and she switched to a Psion.
In a few weeks I have a RPG session with the local university group. Thinking of runinng a Dark Sun game for them.
And while you can say, "Well, they had this cool stuff planned, so it really wasn't going to stay that way..." that wasn't what was actually given to anyone in the boxed set.
What should have happened, if Athas was being rewritten to be a world with a different premise -- where the Sorcerer-Kings and the society they ruled were the crux upon which the setting turned -- then that rewritten world -- with invading armies of undead and devouring insect-hordes surrounding the crumbling remnants of civilization -- is what should have been presented in the second boxed set.
That could have easily scored big. But the boxed set presents, very clearly, the idea that "This is Athas. This is where you find adventure." And the buyer, the player, should not be misled and told (or expect) later, "And here is where the adventure actually is!" as he is when suddenly the real threats and driving personalities of the setting are only revealed in a new product.
Because all you can judge a product on is "what is" not "what might be" (even "what was planned to be"), and that is what the 2nd boxed set is being judged on: its depiction and presentation as a core setting and setting premise.
Unfortunately, the use of the metaplot as a way to drive sales -- put little pieces of a big setting-story in each product to try and force more players to buy those books so they could see the big picture/premise/adventure-content of the setting the original product should have provided [1] -- was a side-effect of the era of "the Supplement Treadmill", of which Vampire and the other WW games are a perfect example.
This prevented a number more sensible design approaches from coming to the fore and instead, "pump out more and more long, shallow books and materials" was the touted and attempted cure for financial difficulties. Given the financial state of TSR at the time, and the contempt the CEO had for gamers as a group, it isn't surprising, either.
[1] Imagine having to buy three books in a series just to find out what genre the story was being set in and you get an idea of why this isn't a good thing, and where coherent, blatant presentation of what the setting is all about -- as with the original DS boxed set -- is different.
We know what 1st Edition DS is "about". We don't know what 2nd Edition DS is "about", it's kind of flimsy and loose because what it is actually all about is waiting off in the wings instead of presented up-front as with 1st Ed. I would have felt the money was worth it for the 2nd Ed set if I'd been shown, up front, "Invading armies of undead stalk the dunes and devouring insect-hordes surround the crumbling remnants of civilization! Can you survive? Will mankind save himself?" or something similar. I'd play that in a heartbeat.
I guess I fail to see how the campaign world became less gritty after the PP series. It is different to be sure, but not any less gritty. Tyr is seen as this city of freedom and hope, yet it is under extreme economic pressure due to the huge influx of skilled and unskilled labor that now must be paid. Templars no longer have spells, so keeping the peace becomes harder and harder. Tyr is free, but it is also chaotic and dangerous, as those who have tasted freedom have little to keep them in check.
I guess for me, even with the chaotic uncertainties in post PP Tyr, I just prefer that there be no "free" city. Truthfully, I liked the books, but it galled me that it transferred over to the campaign setting. To my way of thinking, if a city is going to be freed, then I'll let my players be the ones to do it. Not the character from a book. This is just my preference of course. Whenever I get my campaign going, it will be untouched by the novels which may be well and good because many of the players I know don't have any experience with the setting and I'm not likely to hear any arguments about the way "the books" said things are.
That said; I hear what you are saying Greyorm. Maybe what I have posted may not represent that, but I do understand what you are saying. The 1st box had a theme that was drastically altered by the books and adventures. The 2nd box was incomplete and needed major information to fill it in. The tone was totally different and changed. The world of the 2nd box was up in the air, as no one knew what to expect, or what the point now was. At the time, I though that the uncertainty of the world at this point was reflected in the product. The people of the Tablelands didn't know what was going to happen as their paradigms had changed. Chaos was closing in because of these changes, not from any particular place that anyone knew, but because people could tell the world had changed (Great Earthquake, Tyr Storms).
This is what I am wondering though. Is it possible to fill in those blanks at this point? The things waiting in the wings that never got released and weren't part of the boxed set like the should have been can they be worked on and released now, since they would be free and not cost you anything?
Further, What is to stop you from taking the materials from the new areas detailed in the 2nd box and other supplements and spin those into the original settings flavor? The Cities of Kurn and Eldaarich would still exist, as would the Last Sea, the Jagged Cliffs, the Deadlands and the Kreen Empire. Just because they weren't mentioned doesn't mean that they don't still have some impact on the setting, even if it is unseen by all but the SK's.
This is not to say that you are wrong, you aren't. Your view is valid and good and makes for an interesting game. My question is does it have to be either or. The statement that I seem to get (and I could be wrong) from the 1st box purists is that any metaplot ruins what I want to do with the world and shouldn't exist. That, at least if you are running a company, doesn't make sense if you want to make money. That aside, how is it possible to make the setting realistic if nothing is ever released to fill in the rest of the world, even if all that gets filled in are slave tribes and elf raiders that wander the wastes? Aren't they going to have their own agenda, just like the SK's. Would that be metaplot?
I guess the questions is this: What would you suggest that we do at this point with the setting? Because I personally think that leaving things as is makes the setting stagnate and die. You speak well and have made good suggestions before, so what would you suggest that we, as a community, do with this disparaty? This is an honest question, and not a challenge in the least. I am very curious how to satisfy this part of the community without alienating the rest of it.
For a while there in the mid to late 90's each Star Wars book/series usually had the following.
1. Imperial Remnant
2. Imperial superweapon
3. Lost Jedi/darksider minion of Palpatine
4. Massive fleets.
Each series was trying to top the other. Some books were relaly good others were rubbush. And then they release the Yuuzhan Vong/lifeshaped halfings on the universe. Krynn has been wrecked IMHO and Forgotten Realms seems to be havng a major crisis each year. Eberron has very little meta plot from novels/game designers. World cataclysmic events lose their impact if they happen to often.
However, I always thought it would spice up the revised setting if everything that happened in the novels that can't be backed up by witnesses available to the Tyrian council of advisers may not have happened. In fact, it's highly likely that Sadira, Rikus, and the rest of the heroes of Tyr have undergone extreme memory modification at the hands of the Dragon, one of the SKs, or some other unknown power. Agis of Asticles, being the only Psionicist of the group and the one most capable of resisting such treatment is notably...absent. (While not something I'd consider following up on, one could suggest that Agis faked his own death thorough psionics or some sort of magic, and was the one who did the memory modifications, though what his motives might be, were such the case, is very uncertain.)
Abalach-Re, Tectuktitlay, and the Dragon may or may not individually be dead. The two SKs may have gone into hiding out of fear (inspired by the possibility that determined mortals might kill a sorcerer-king, Kalak for example), in order to lure enemies into coming out into the open, or to further their own dragon transformations (to fill in the gap in power left by the dragon, if indeed he is truly dead). Perhaps they are simply waiting till the inhabitants of their former city-states get desperate enough, when they will don a new disguise and save their people, installing themselves as a "new" sorcerer-king. In fact, the original box set seems to suggest that some SKs do or have done something similar to this throughout the history of the Tyr region since the Cleansing Wars.
Andropinis as well, may be actually self-exiled, seeking to further his dragon transformation somewhere he can rage without consequence, or else perhaps plans to renounce his dragon transformation (similar to Oronis) and create a new advanced being type born from shadow wizardry and psionics.
And though it may be reasonable to assume that Borys the Dragon is dead, since he has not been seen anywhere since Sadira's return to Tyr, with no evidence other than the testimony of so few people, it might be wise not to get one's hopes up.
Also, as cnahumck has brought up, the city-states of the Tyr region aren't any better off for being without their SKs. No one has as much experience managing the city-states as the sorcerer-kings, and while their rule wasn't pleasant, at least it was stable. Without that stability, it's going to be hard enough to grow food and distribute it properly, and maintain law enforcement and a standing army, let alone mount a defense against invading hordes of Kreen and undead.
The statement that I seem to get (and I could be wrong) from the 1st box purists is that any metaplot ruins what I want to do with the world and shouldn't exist. That, at least if you are running a company, doesn't make sense if you want to make money.
This is an assumption we should challenge first: including metaplot has little to do with making money.
From one standpoint: if you know the right people to ask and can get access to the numbers, you'll find that the years when the "metaplot" became a popular device in game products (mainly through the 90's, due the rise and popularity of Vampire and the other WW products which heavily utilized a particular style of it) are, financially, some of the worst years for the hobby and the big players in particular (yes, even for White Wolf).
From another standpoint: There are different ways to do metaplot, and the 90's-style metaplot as utilized by WW and TSR for various worlds, and etc., is the worst way to go about it. If you know what a "Mary Sue" is in fiction-writing parlance, that's the sort of thing we're talking about here: the metaplot style includes NPCs whose are more important to and influential on the course of the setting than the characters themselves. Many published "adventures" from this era had the PCs function (effectively) as "proxy-readers" of someone else's (the designers') story: they were there to run minor errands and bear witness to what the NPCs were doing, rather than doing anything of real and significant import to the plot themselves (especially as it related to the metaplot). There are also concerns about setting integrity and so forth.
From yet another standpoint: Back in the old days, when fogies like myself played D&D out of the red box, there was a setting called "the Known World" which was then later known as "Mystara". The product had no metaplot of any sort, but produced some of the most extensive series of campaign products and adventure modules in D&D's history. (These two events are not linked in the way it seems I may be suggesting they are, as other factors were at play at the time, but after the designers created and included a metaplot the setting went belly-up.)
So, 1) the metaplot is not a factor in success and have a highly questionable (at best) track record in the hobby, 2) there are good ways to design metaplots and bad ways, and 3) there are ways to design highly successful setting products without using metaplot.
I'm giving you all that information so I can answer this question for you:
I guess the questions is this: What would you suggest that we do at this point with the setting? Because I personally think that leaving things as is makes the setting stagnate and die.
There are a number of directions to go.
I once jokingly suggested the PP and everything thereafter were just a dream of Agis' that he wakes up from in the latest product. But that joke does rest on a more serious suggestion: a "reboot" of the setting, putting things back to the way they were in the initial boxed set and un-answering the mysteries that were later answered in the setting (Who and why are the SK's? What is the Dragon? What happened to the world? etc.) in order to free up the world better for the imaginations of individual gamemasters.
One could still quite easily expand the world without needing to utilize a metaplot, simply by adding detail to both existing locations and creating detail for locations not currently described but found in the wider world. One can even write what would be blatantly presented "metaplot" in another situation without actually doing so: by suggesting possible adventure and plot hooks through the details of the setting. That is, one of the ways in which setting works best for a game product is by describing the conflicts and potential organically-arising conflicts inherent in the portion of the world being described, rather than just detailing the location like a travel manual. This is how the Known World was formed.
Another direction is to release a core setting supplement that deals with the problem issues of the 2nd Edition boxed set release by making the setting thematically tight again, giving it a definitive theme, establishing its character. This would mean writing the setting around the big scenario ideas of the Kreen Invasion and the opening of the Deadlands, set against the backdrop of the fall of civilization and rising anarchy (as others here have mentioned as "where the setting was going").
Now, there is the possibility of including the arrival of life-shaped halfling tyrants from the Moons and the Void in this, but I think a threat of that sort would dilute the theme established by the other two threats unless worked into the structure very carefully. As in cooking, too many (strong) ingredients spoils the flavor of the soup, and that's a strong ingredient that doesn't seem to play well with the others.
There is one large problem with doing most of this, however: mainly, I do not believe that Athas.org has been granted the right to distribute the setting itself or detail it further than what currently exists. And I know for a fact it does not have the right to advance the timeline or make changes to the setting. The setting is locked in a sort of stasis by WotC for the moment. Meaning, ultimately, there's not a lot "we" can do with the setting at this point, officially, and talking about it from that perspective is futile.
Any future of Athas is fully within the hands of the fans and the material we create, unofficially. Honestly, though, I kind of prefer it that way: it hopefully means we will see more than one vision of Athas that we can draw inspiration from.
From another standpoint: There are different ways to do metaplot, and the 90's-style metaplot as utilized by WW and TSR for various worlds, and etc., is the worst way to go about it. If you know what a "Mary Sue" is in fiction-writing parlance, that's the sort of thing we're talking about here: the metaplot style includes NPCs whose are more important to and influential on the course of the setting than the characters themselves. Many published "adventures" from this era had the PCs function (effectively) as "proxy-readers" of someone else's (the designers') story: they were there to run minor errands and bear witness to what the NPCs were doing, rather than doing anything of real and significant import to the plot themselves (especially as it related to the metaplot). There are also concerns about setting integrity and so forth.
This I understand and agree with. Nothing ruins an adventure or campaign more than making the PC's not matter. Darksun did do a lot of this. There were a few adventures that did not, but, on the whole, I agree with you.
So, 1) the metaplot is not a factor in success and have a highly questionable (at best) track record in the hobby, 2) there are good ways to design metaplots and bad ways, and 3) there are ways to design highly successful setting products without using metaplot.
I understand this too. My interest is to have the meta plot be something that PC's do, rather than NPC's. I think at this point, athas.org can do this without a problem.
I once jokingly suggested the PP and everything thereafter were just a dream of Agis' that he wakes up from in the latest product. But that joke does rest on a more serious suggestion: a "reboot" of the setting, putting things back to the way they were in the initial boxed set and un-answering the mysteries that were later answered in the setting (Who and why are the SK's? What is the Dragon? What happened to the world? etc.) in order to free up the world better for the imaginations of individual gamemasters.
r7 of the core rules will have a section on suggestions for playing in different time periods. Given your comments and other's comments that are similar, I think that we can address these issues there.
Another direction is to release a core setting supplement that deals with the problem issues of the 2nd Edition boxed set release by making the setting thematically tight again, giving it a definitive theme, establishing its character. This would mean writing the setting around the big scenario ideas of the Kreen Invasion and the opening of the Deadlands, set against the backdrop of the fall of civilization and rising anarchy (as others here have mentioned as "where the setting was going").
This might be possible, as athas.org is working on SotDL. That said, it is probably best to write in that there is a threat of invasion, rather than making one or both things the focus. I think athas.org can rekindle the feel that we all love without advancing a metaplot that PC's have no access to.
There is one large problem with doing most of this, however: mainly, I do not believe that Athas.org has been granted the right to distribute the setting itself or detail it further than what currently exists. And I know for a fact it does not have the right to advance the timeline or make changes to the setting. The setting is locked in a sort of stasis by WotC for the moment. Meaning, ultimately, there's not a lot "we" can do with the setting at this point, officially, and talking about it from that perspective is futile.
Any future of Athas is fully within the hands of the fans and the material we create, unofficially. Honestly, though, I kind of prefer it that way: it hopefully means we will see more than one vision of Athas that we can draw inspiration from.
I am not sure that athas.org is constrained by the timeline. It can be advanced, though why we would want to pull a Piazo is beyond me. It is my hope that r7 will have info in it to make all parties happy, and return the setting to its roots, thematically if not historically.
I understand this too. My interest is to have the meta plot be something that PC's do, rather than NPC's. I think at this point, athas.org can do this without a problem.
Depends. I'm none-too-hot on any world-changing adventures due their propensity to alter the setting for everyone. I would be more accepting of them if they were presented as adventures only and not as setting material or "official timeline material" -- ie: bad metaplot. If you see what I'm saying(?).
This might be possible, as athas.org is working on SotDL. That said, it is probably best to write in that there is a threat of invasion, rather than making one or both things the focus. I think athas.org can rekindle the feel that we all love without advancing a metaplot that PC's have no access to.
I think we should clarify the definition of metaplot. I don't see the above invasion as metaplot because stuff that is happening in the world isn't metaplot any more than "the SK's rule a world of slavery and fear while mythical beasts savage the perilous deserts" is metaplot. That is "hungry ghosts and dead men from the south lurk behind the dunes, and the a vast empire of alien insects who pay no heed to men's concerns or their gods close in around the cities of man". You're not telling players or groups what is actually happening, but you are suggesting the possibility of danger and events that could be resolved in any fashion.
There's a big difference between that and, "And in FY 18, the Deadlands invade and take over Tyr!" or "Raam is conquered and turned into a hive!" It's when things like: "And then this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens..." occur that you start to get (the bad kind of) metaplot.
I am not sure that athas.org is constrained by the timeline. It can be advanced, though why we would want to pull a Piazo is beyond me. It is my hope that r7 will have info in it to make all parties happy, and return the setting to its roots, thematically if not historically.
I recall Jon stating at one point that Athas.org did not have permission to advance or alter the timeline or make any large-scale changes to the setting, but I may be misremembering this.
Depends. I'm none-too-hot on any world-changing adventures due their propensity to alter the setting for everyone. I would be more accepting of them if they were presented as adventures only and not as setting material or "official timeline material" -- ie: bad metaplot. If you see what I'm saying(?).
I do.
I think we should clarify the definition of metaplot. I don't see the above invasion as metaplot because stuff that is happening in the world isn't metaplot any more than "the SK's rule a world of slavery and fear while mythical beasts savage the perilous deserts" is metaplot. That is "hungry ghosts and dead men from the south lurk behind the dunes, and the a vast empire of alien insects who pay no heed to men's concerns or their gods close in around the cities of man". You're not telling players or groups what is actually happening, but you are suggesting the possibility of danger and events that could be resolved in any fashion.
There's a big difference between that and, "And in FY 18, the Deadlands invade and take over Tyr!" or "Raam is conquered and turned into a hive!" It's when things like: "And then this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens..." occur that you start to get (the bad kind of) metaplot.
I see what you are saying. And I agree that it is much better to set it up and allow players to take things where they want it to go. That said, How would you suggest going about preparing supplements for that.
It seems that one could detail what the regions are up to, what the motives of the prime movers are and then leave it up to the DM. So, if one were to write a Kreen Invasion, one would talk about ways in which the Kreen are preparing, and even a few adventures or adventure seeds about advanced scouts, but leave the flow of things up to the individual DM.
I recall Jon stating at one point that Athas.org did not have permission to advance or alter the timeline or make any large-scale changes to the setting, but I may be misremembering this.
He may have, I am relatively new to the party (just a few years on the boards, and just a few months as a templar, even though I bought the 1st box set when it came out, and ran it as my setting ever since).
That said, there are things that have changed, setting wise. Take the difference between Dragon Kings statement that there is no way to get a Living Vortex for a new character, then in DA, there is one that is sacrificed as a material component. That is a change. Also, the fleshing out of the Trembling Plains is a slight change, though not drastic. I am not saying that we should change anything in a drastic way, or that anything needs to be changed. But I do see some problems with the idea that you populate a setting with creatures, all of whom have their own motives and agenda, and then stop telling the story. This does not mean that I want bad metaplot. It does mean that things happen in a world even if the players aren't involved. DA should happen no matter what. If the PC's in your campaign don't get involved, that is fine. But Dregoth should move towards his goals regardless of what anyone else does.
Finally, isn't it the case that at any point, you can do with the campaign as you choose? Especially now that it is free to get the 3.5 conversions? So, If DA is something you don't like, then don't use it. If you hate that Tyr is free, then keep Kalak alive, or something similar, and run with it.
In my current campaign, I am running it at the end of the PP, and I cannot decide whether or not to kill the SK's and follow the books (even though the PC's are on their own in Tyr). I know how things would be different if they survived, so it is up to me.
I guess my question is this: They DID make mistakes in the past. Denning himself has said he would do it differently. What is stopping you from doing your own thing now? I guess I don't understand why it is that it is a big deal now.
Raven recalls correctly with regards to our mandate as far as world-changing events go. This includes the death of notable NPCs such as the SKs. However, I do not think our mandate restricts us to not advancing the timeline. This is an active choice, as we do not see the need to advance the timeline. There is plenty of material to flesh out in the current era.
Love Eberron too. And SpellJammer. I think I just like non-standard fantasy.
There are two words that instantly come to mind when I think of Dark Sun: desert and survival.
I can't say for sure why DS has captured and held my fascination for over a decade, but I think it has a lot to do with the freedom allowed in creating and the simplicity of the world.
Athas is exotic- where the smell of spiced tea mixes with broiled meat in the open markets, and where being in the wrong place at the wrong time can land you in the slave pits, or the arena. It is a land where death can come swift and unexpectedly, or it can be drawn out into a lifetime of slavery and torture. Where your very mind can be stolen, let alone the few cereamic bits you may have in your belt pouch. I love that the few city-states, ruled over by sorcerer-kings, struggle to survive not only because of the barren wastes that surround them, but because they are ruled through a sophisticated hieracrchy of bureaucrats, nobles, and templars that spend more time squabbling over titles and duties than they do getting their cities to function. That the sorcerer-kings' wield absoslute power, but only so far as the walls that secure their cities, as beyond those walls the only rule is the law of survival.
As for life on Athas in the time-set of the 3.5v, I have taken what works, and left what hasn't. I keep my world as it always has been, and include the novels as epic stories told by the people for entertainment, or for hope. They are wonderful stories that I feel have added a richer depth to DS, but I like to keep my campaigns simple, and so I remain a purist and keep my players in the time of sorcerer-kings, with fear of the Dragon, and only the most learned know of anything beyond the lands shown on the original Tablelands map.
Don't get me wrong, I have followed nearly everything that has developed since DS was released, and I think there is a lot of good and creative ideas, but in my campaign world the people are more concerned with surviving through the day than they are with the political systems of the kreen who inhabit the lands beyond the Ringing mountains.
That being said, it takes a LOT of research to start running a DS campaign! And despite the fact that it's time consuming, my head is swimming with images of the burning sands and red sun the whole time.
Somewhere in the above link. I can't recall exactly.
Mark Charke
...and to a lesser extent Baxa.
A much, much, much lesser extent.
Baxa is to Brom like your kid's crayon pictures is to Norman Rockwell.
This is a land of blood and dust, where tribes of feral elves sweep out of the salt plains to plunder lonely caravans, mysterious singing winds call men to slow suffocation in a Sea of Silt, and legions of slaves clash over a few bushels of moldering grain. The dragon despoils entire cities, while selfish kings squander their armies raising gaudy palaces and garish tombs.
This is my home, Athas. It is an arid and bleak place, a wasteland with a handful of austere cities clinging precariously to a few scattered oases. It is a brutal and savage land, beset by political strife and monstrous abominations, where life is grim and short.
--The Wanderer's Journal, p. 2.
For me, this is Athas: a once-rich land lain low by the fell magics of great wars fought in some lost era, where scattered city-states are held captive by tyrannical sorcerer-kings, where the secrets of the ancients awaken in the deep desert, where water is more precious than silver.
Nobles plot against each other from within their lavish estates and citadels, directing assassins at rival houses. Rogues stalk the darkling, labyrinthine alleyways that worm their way through the shadows of opulent temples and town houses. Wizards pry into ancient secrets best left alone, looking for a remedy for the world’s condition, or to discover power for themselves rivaling that of the great kings. Warriors lead armies out of the wastes to ravage outlying client villages and outposts. Elemental clerics wield spectacular elemental forces in defense of the land or for their own purposes. Druids observe much that transpires in the world, hidden from those who would rout them and see them destroyed, waiting patiently for the right time to strike. Gladiators battle in bloody contests to gain fame, fortune, and more tantalizingly, their freedom. Blood-thirsty halflings, rapacious elves, beast-headed giants, corrupt templars, savage gith hordes, and countless abominations and aberrations of the deep wastes, lurking in shattered ruins, upon desolate hill crests, and in the remote locales of the world, challenge the heroes of this world at every turn. And in all the creatures of this desolate world is unlocked a great power that can throw down walls and lay waste to the mind.
Who has not marveled at the archaic walls of a lost city snaking from beneath a mountainous sand dune? Who has not stopped at a rocky aerie to wonder at the aged ruins of the castle perched on the summit? Who has ever crossed an ancient stone-paved road without speculating as to where it once led?
--The Wanderer's Journal, p. 6.
This is Athas: at once both a stark, yet darkly-beautiful wreck of some better world. Here evil and despair thrive in the shadows of every street, every hollow, and every barren plain. Athas is an unforgiving world; however, the riches and power offered by its hostile lands, deadly sorceries, and powerful psychic abilities are unsurpassed. Indeed, those who survive in the face of the fires of the deserts to learn the secrets of this once-verdant world-turned-wasteland may become some of the most powerful characters known in the Dungeons & Dragons game. Yet it is also a world on the frontier of a new age, one ready to be guided, shaped, conquered, or delivered.
This is Athas: a world brought to the edge of destruction, where the very fate of the planet may well rest in the hands of the most unlikely of heroes. In recent years, change has swept this land, but little for the better, it seems. The Great Scourge, the Dragon of Tyr, is vanquished. A haven for freedom has appeared from out of the ashes of servitude and oppression. Rain falls from the east. But new menaces have emerged: old evils stir under ancient ruins, an earthquake has sundered once secure boundaries. The eastern rains bring not new life, but destruction and sorrow. And in all of this, something elusive and unknowable reaches out from behind the deepest shadows and moves through all things.
Whenever I have to field questions from my gamer friends about what the allure of the Dark Sun Campaign Setting is, I ask them to read pp. 2-8 of The Wanderer's Journal. These pages were what drew me in, back in 1991, and are what speak to me still. Whenever I feel I need to recharge and regroup when running a campaign, or I need to get grounded in the excitement and the mystery of the setting again, I re-read these few pages.
Great question, by the way.
Draloric
[i]
Great question, by the way.
Thanks - great answer.
Dark Sun
Planescape
Some weird cyberpunky homebrew
Fading Suns
Wasteworld
Tribe 8
How come all of these games involve mutants of some sort? ;)
I guess when I first saw Dark Sun in a shop, I thought:
Desert Environment that's not as tacky as Al'qadim? Psionics? Non-standard fantasy reflecting on effects of magic use etc? That's for me!!! And I still think so :D
Btw For those of you who are on Facebook, I opened up a Dark Sun group coz there wasn't one ;)
Lastard >8)
CP 2020?
The desert and the memories I have of playing Dark Sun. Dark Sun was the first RPG game were I felt I was in it with a great map. Really, the map made Dark Sun.
Then it got stupid when they started all these adventure books.