this is one of those posts where someone who's been thinking about running a campaign asks for advice and suggestions. I am that someone, and the GDQ series is that campaign.
But I'm of a mind to run this a little differently. My plans are developing slowly but surely (and since I'm too busy to actually start playing for at least 3 months that doesn't bother me) but the general idea is to try and get away from the hack and slash in order to highlight other aspects of the pure Gygaxian goodness - the might and wildness of the giants, the mystery of their behaviour, the sinister drow and the weirdness of Erelhei-Cinlu, etc.
(I have nothing against the hack and slash, mind. I've already run the giants series in precisely that mode and had an absolute whale of a time. But it's the cool Greyhawkiness that keeps luring me back in, so that's what I want to explore.)
Anyway, I'll probably yammer on about that stuff as it comes up.
===
So that's the intro spiel. I have a bunch of questions that will hopefully get cool answers from Greyhawk gurus, insightful newcomers, and random passers-by. Even cooler if there are suggestions that raise the awesomeness many times. So if you have any comments or questions, shoot...
I'll put question in next post for ease of quotage...
(If you're just dropping in on this board and don't know the GDQ stuff, Eclavdra was the drow who organised a variety of chaotic giants to go stomping around killing and looting.)
D3 Vault of the Drow mentions that this was part of an audacious plan to create a surface kingdom, and doesn't say much else at all. Here's the quote:
"...an attempt to move worship of their deity [the Elder Elemental God] into the upper world, establish a puppet kingdom there, and grow so powerful from this success that their demands for absolute rulership [of Erelhei-Cinlu] could no longer be thwarted..."
in G3 we see the instructions that started all this:
"...instructions for the King, telling him to gather forces of hill, stone, frost and fire giants, along with whatever strength he can raise in ogres, ogre-magi, cloud giants and any other creatures for an all-out attack on the provinces to the east and northeast. The scroll promises help from "Drow". It is signed "Eclavdra"..."
So, is this really her plan? Have an unstable army of chaos go and smash stuff, and then... what? Move in a bunch of drow to run the place? Let the humanoids have free reign and strip the land bare? Enslave the humans on the surface and convert them to worship of the EEG? And how will anything up there possibly help gaining power in Erelhei-Cinlu?
Eclavdra is smart and devious. So what the heck is she really up to? Is the plot exactly as it seems from the evidence here, or is she trying to achieve some greater end?
Ideas and suggestions and obscure Greyhawk factoids all welcome...
The ToEE suggests that the EEG and the Princes of Elemental Evil have a close connection, except that was all Zuggtmoy's plot. Return to the ToEE suggests the same connection, except the EEG there is Tharizdun. The canonical stuff on the EEG, in G3 and D3, doesn't mention the princes at all and it seems to mean "elemental" as in "fundamental" not "fire/earth/air/water".
Any insights?
http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-22897.html
The whole idea of the EEG has always been so vague within canon, its been difficult to really do anything with it. There are lots of "pet" theories, but certainly nothing definitive, and certainly nothing that answers all questions, and thats a function of EGG's own nebulous use of the EEG (not to mention, at least seemingly at first glance, inconsistent and contradictory).
What did I do? Well, its really not very elemental (as in earth, fire, etc) is it? So what I did was consider the "chaos stuff" of Limbo is equivalent to an element (of the multiverse) itself. The EEG then belongs not to the Elemental Planes (despite its name) but to the Outer Planes... in an isolated realm in one of the deeper layers of Pandemonium (Pandemonium always needed more press!) that is drenched in "chaos stuff" from Limbo. It is an elder Power (but just a Power=God, so I should really just say "older" rather then "elder") that predates most of the known gods, but it is not a primordial (see my Grand Unified Theory for information about the true primordials). In its day, possibly more powerful then most of "today's" gods (and weakened over the millenia as pantheons come and go), but in the end, still just a god, albeit alien-like in its ancient origins.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Yeah, the vagueness of the EEG is a pain, except that it gives all Greyhawk GMs room to customise! But its weird that the EEG, which predates Lolth as a drow power, should be so low profile. (The Ghaunadaur of the Forgotten Realms really seems to be an entirely different thing, despite claiming to be that world's EEG. And Monster Mythology apparently had another 2E take but I never saw that one.)
Your conception of the EEG as tied to Pandemonium is actually quite neat and helpful. I never got the EEG purple stone as being anything to do with the four elements, but that just left me with "er... tentacle rods?" So this gives a good anchor point to think about it.
I presume it isn't coincidence that this jibes so well with what Gygax said in Oerth Journal 12 of the EEG: "The Elder Elemental God I saw as a dark creative deity, one that spun form out of chaos in his portion of one universe, then lost control of his creation–as is the story with so many deities of this sort in the mythology of various peoples of earth, from Babylonian and Egyptian on." This sits nicely with your idea, although Gygax saw the EEG as bringing from from chaos i.e. being a creature of order? But I think that's just a matter of perspective.
(In the same article he says the EEG lurked in the ToEE and could be freed from there - but frustratingly says nothing about whether the EEG is actually linked to elemental evil or not!)
I love your grand unified theory. Don't know if I'll find any practical application for it, but it's very cool. Thanks!
It is generally assumed by most people that the events described in the GDQ series were all orchestrated by Lolth, and that the adventurers in Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits are simply facing the ultimate manipulator behind the giant raids. To those reading the modules, it becomes apparent that this cannot be the case; as Eclavdra no longer serves Lolth, and is instead trying to set up a rival worship to an Elder Elemental God.
As such, it becomes entirely improbable that Lolth has anything to do with the Giant raids. What then are the adventurers doing in the Demonweb? The explanation is quite simple: Eclavdra has manipulated the entire thing.
Full article @ http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=165
WRT the EEG, some interesting revelations also appear in Paul Stormberg's interview "Thus Spake Gary Gygax: Ye Secrets of Oerth Revealed" in Oerth Journal #12 @ http://www.oerthjournal.com/oj12.html
I'm very fond of Merric Blackman's Canonfire! article "Upon the True History of the Drow/Giant Incursion" which details (his vision of) what's really up in the G and D (vs. Q) modules:
That's quite nifty, and definitely shows up Eclavdra as a scheming planning-ahead kind of person. (I'm quite fond of the notion that Eclavdra ends up as a chosen servant of Lolth, because she's just too quality for Lolth to turn away despite the defiance she'd shown!)
It doesn't give much word to what Eclavdra was actually trying to achieve in the giant raids, though. She wants giant conquest but it remains unclear to me how (i.e. which of the many possible ways) she means to exploit that.
Thanks for the links grodog!
It doesn't give much word to what Eclavdra was actually trying to achieve in the giant raids, though. She wants giant conquest but it remains unclear to me how (i.e. which of the many possible ways) she means to exploit that.
From Grodog's link, it's clear that she wanted the giant's conquest to fail; she intended for the scheme to be defeated so that adventurers would follow it back to its source in the Vault of the Drow and falsely conclude that Lolth was responsible for it.
The giants, in short, were causing trouble only so that Lolth would be killed and House Eilservs, champions of the Elder Elemental God, would rule Erelhei-Cinlu in the place of the priestesses of the Spider Queen. Erelhei-Cinlu was always the goal, not Geoff or Sterich, which Eclavdra couldn't have cared less about.
In the contest of subsequent canon, however, that doesn't make sense, because Lolth (as an intermediate goddess) was never killable by mortal adventures, and the giant invasion eventually succeeded. Fred Weining gave us the foundation of the best present-day explanation in the Living Greyhawk Journal #14.
As with the above explanation, it was Erelhei-Cinlu, not the giant kingdom, that was Eclavdra's real goal. Eclavdra intended to use the giant kingdom to bring her wealth and power enough to seize control of the Vault of the Drow; her evil giant allies, grown fat on the stolen treasures of the fallen human lands, would give her a sufficient share that her power would eclipse that of the rival houses. Her scheme failed, the Eilservs estate assaulted by the responsible adventurers, and her noble house fell, exiled, humiliated, many of the survivors fleeing to a small nearby enclave (according to Dungeon #70, page 49). Eclavdra clearly had no idea the adventurers were coming, or she would have redirected them exclusively toward the Fane of Lolth.
What's more, the adventurers were not mistaken that Lolth was the true threat. Although Eclavdra was trying to overthrow her, the Spider Queen still benefited from the chaos of the giant attacks because she took advantage of the confusion it engendered to envelop the city of Istivin in a magical black hemisphere that brought it partly into the Abyss (as described in the GDQ supermodule, and later in the Shadows Over Istivin series in Dungeon magazine). Further, even when this scheme initially failed, Lolth built on Eclavdra's strategies to encourage the giants to conquer the region once again during the Greyhawk Wars - this time at Lolth's own command rather than Eclavdra's - so that the giant kingdom could be a puppet kingdom controlled ultimately by the demon queen herself, much like similar puppet kingdoms she rules on a dozen or so other worlds, in the fallen dwarven kingdom of Maldev, in the Kingdom of Caer Sidi, in the Red Forest, the Spiral Desert, and elsewhere. For this, Eclavdra earned Lolth's admiration, although not her forgiveness.
This scheme only went wrong when House Tormtor took advantage of the distraction of House Kilsek, preoccupied with manipulating the giants at Lolth's command, to try its own bid at taking over the Vault. Tormtor converted to the worship of the demigoddess Kiaransalee and plunged the Vault into civil war, as described in the module Dead Gods.
LGJ #14 says that the civil war only ended when the disgraced Eclavdra traveled to the Demonweb and abased herself before Lolth, her scorned former mistress, undergoing a dangerous sacred rite to prove herself. She made a pact with Lolth that summoned the demon goddess to the Material Plane, where she personally forced the warring houses to put down their arms and return to her worship. The price of this was the loss of Lolth's surface holdings - perhaps in return for being permitted (by the greater gods?) to intervene directly on Oerth, she was no longer able to control the giant lairds. Lolth exiled House Kilsek, which had remained her most loyal champions. LGJ #14 intimates that this was her punishment to the Kilseks for failing to quench the rebellion on their own, although the Kilseks themselves believe with some justification that it was because Lolth had a greater destiny in mind for them, directing them to conquer an ancient gith city in the underdark of far western Oerik.
Fiendish Codex I goes into a little more detail on what Eclavdra was up to in the meantime between the fall of her house and the conclusion of the Priestess Wars (as Drow of the Underdark calls the civil war between the houses). The demon lord Verin urged her to serve as the ambassador of Graz'zt, which she did for some time (maybe as the ambassador to his son Iuz, which is the position she served in as of Iuz the Evil, although she eventually became Lolth's own ambassador to Iuz). She ultimately seduced and betrayed Graz'zt, and this is part of the reason Lolth forgave her. Somehow, it can be surmised, her betrayal of Graz'zt was either part of the test that Lolth assigned her or part of the reason Lolth was able to manifest on the Material Plane directly.
As a result of Eclavdra's return to grace, House Eilservs was reinstated as one of the noble houses of the Vault of the Drow, though not before many Eilservs were slaughtered by the expansionist White Kingdom of the Ghouls (Dungeon #70). Eilservs is not the ruling house, not yet - that status belongs to the formally rebellious Tormtor (Lolth "admires ambition above loyalty") - but this may yet change as Eclavdra gears up for a showdown with Lolth's current high priestess, Matron Charinida.
If you read the Gord the Rogue books, you might speculate that the Eclavdra who seduced and betrayed Graz'zt wasn't the original Eclavdra at all, but her clone, who is also known as Leda.
I'd like to add that according to Dragon # 298 (finally managed to find a replacement issue! Yay!), House Eilserves has once again been reinstated as a Noble House (Loth truly is Chaotic in her evil, it seems), while House Kilsek was cast out, to form a new Drow city west of the Sea of Dust (over in the Chainmail setting region), called Kalan-G'eld.
That issue also updated Erelhei-Cinlu and its history to 3.0/3.5 and the 'now' of Greyhawk lore, as well as having a pretty full-color map of the city itself, great detailing of gaming 'in the city' data, and info on the major 'in-city' power groups, not just the noble houses, but the Rakes, the folks who control the various sectors of the city, and more.
As for the Elder Elemental God, you could update the EEG stats from Monster Mythology, substitute Tharizdun or Zugtmoy, or grab a copy of D20 Call of Cthulhu and use whichever Great Old One seems appropriate to you!
Examples include Holashner and Shothotugg. They're deliberately very Lovecraftian.
In the original Temple, Zuggtmoy is the hidden force behind a cult of elemental evil. This gives rise to certain questions:
- did Zuggtmoy invent the idea of a cult of elemental evil, or did such things already exist to be copied?
- why did she carry the charade so far as to create elemental nodes and fill them with elemental creatures?
- were the Princes of Elemental Evil involved, and if not why not? Fiend Folio states that the Princes "have many followers on the Prime Material Plane".
Here is a suggested answer. Does this fit with other Greyhawk materials? Do you think it works, canonicity aside?
As stated in ToEE, Zuggtmoy wanted a sexy cult to get some followers, and chose Elemental Evil. She chose this for two reasons:
- the elemental evil princes existed, and had followers, but there weren't any organised cults in their honour - so there was some unclaimed territory that suited Zuggtmoy's needs
- Zuggtmoy realised that the elemental evil cult, played to the right extreme, would actually give her a means to dominate the Princes of Elemental Evil - thus making her extremely powerful
By simple stat comparison between the Fiend Folio and the ToEE, it appears the Princes of Elemental Evil are a step or two down from Zuggtmoy in sheer power, suggesting that Zuggtmoy could reasonably plan to seize control of them.
What I like about this is that it provides a motivation for Zuggtmoy - and Iuz for that matter - to be working to develop the temple so far as to create elemental nodes and to summon many elemental creatures. This goal is the domination of the Elemental Princes of Evil in the creation of a new evil army.
(Not coincidentally, bringing the Princes into the nodes appeared in the Return to the ToEE adventure - that's what gave me the idea, although here it's Zuggtmoy/Iuz planning to dominate them, while there it's Tharizdun planning to use them to get free.)
(How does this square with the presentations of Zuggtmoy and the Princes in recent Dragon mags, by the way? My magazines are currently in storage, sad to say.)
I wasn't so sure they "created" the nodes as that they found them and were able to control them with the Golden Skull. I could be wrong.
But I do like your ideas - that the purpose was to use and control the Princes as well.
ROB
My understanding of the purpose of the nodes was as a staging area for summoning up a huge army, then bringing them into the Temple and out into the midst of the good lands, behind the lines - all part of a planar invasion.
I wasn't so sure they "created" the nodes as that they found them and were able to control them with the Golden Skull. I could be wrong.
But I do like your ideas - that the purpose was to use and control the Princes as well.
ROB
Yeah, the purpose was as you say - staging area for huge army. It just always bugged me that Zuggtomy & Iuz's fake cult would be taken so far, when there were real Elemental Evil powers around who might get ****** at their name being taken in vain (so to speak).
ToEE does explicitly state that Zuggtmoy created the nodes. (Of course, I don't feel particularly tied to that kind of backstory statement in a module.)
Thanks for the note of support for the idea, too.
New question. In the original 1E GDQ, Lolth could be killed so she was all-the-way dead. The chance of achieving this was vanishingly unlikely, as she was (a) powerful and (b) well-supplied with escape routes if it did come to that, but nevertheless, a bunch of mortal heroes could off her.
Since then, it seems the vulnerability of Lolth the demoness has been drastically retconned. 2E introduced the idea of Avatars, and Lolth should by rights have a half-dozen of those running around, while she herself was so mighty she couldn't be given a statblock. 3E put Lolth in Deities & Demigods but made her so incredibly powerful no mortal heroes (non-epic) would have the remotest chance of killing her.
And yet, if I understand correctly, the history of Greyhawk post-GDQ is premised on the fact that mortal heroes came to the Demonweb and kicked Lolth down (although didn't quite manage to kill her).
So how the heck does that work? What does Greyhawk canon say about mortal heroes vs. Lolth? If I decide to run my game in 2E, does GDQ become unplayable? If I run it in 3E, does GDQ become playable but requiring Epic characters? For those who have run GDQ - did you make Lolth actually vulnerable in your campaign? (And what edition rules did you use?)
Dragon 347, Sept 2006
Princes of Elemental Evil
It says the Princes are "less powerful than true deities". They are among the oldest living beings in the multiverse. Each of them maintains a cult, and some cultists worship their Prince as a god but by implication most do not. Cult size does not equate to power - Ogremoch is CR24, but has the smallest cult. However, cult size does relate to likelihood of ascension to deity-status, as Olhydra's large cult means "she is closer to becoming a deity than the other evil archomentals".
The evil god known as the Elder Elemental Eye claims to have sired most of the Elemental Princes of Evil... Scholars of ancient religions speculate that this god is actually the ancient evil, Tharizdun... Lending credence to this alleged paternity, small cults of Tharizdun have successfully made pacts with the evil archomentals over the millennia with varying degrees of success. Tharizdun used the demon Zuggtmoy to construct the infamous Temple of Elemental Evil, in which she and hte demigod Iuz opened conduits to four powerful nodes on the Elemental Planes. Tharizdun encouraged Imix, Ogremoch, Olhydra and Yan-C-Bin to secretly assist in crafting the nodes, which would allow his followers to summon the princes and thereby weaken the bonds that hold him in his eternal prison.
Apart from the whole Tharizdun = EEG thing from RtToEE, this also contradicts ToEE by saying Zuggtmoy only found links to the nodes and crafted them, rather than creating them herself.
The article later says Cryonax, to establish his status as a true archomental, "claims to be a spawn of the Elder Elemental Eye".
When Tharizdun first envisioned the Temple of Elemental Evil, he planned to involve Imix and his other "children" from the start. When Tharizdun's cult prepared the way for his arrival, its members contacted the elemental princes, and Imix was the first to respond. Rather than risk his own destruction in this dangerous scheme, Imix sent a lesser aspect of himself to work his will. When this weaker incarnation was destroyed, Imix divorced himself of the plot, and the other archomentals followed suit.
This is a retcon of RtToEE's retcon, saying it wasn't the real Imix in that module but a "lesser aspect". This is the only mention in the article of the Princes having the power to create Aspects, and Monte Cook expressed disdain for the idea on his forums. Imix here is CR 22, in RtToEE he is CR 17.
but it doesn't say whether she's dead or not.
As a true deity, I'd say not.
After all, she's still around (according to game books,) and QotDP takes place roughly 589 CY, 5 years after the Greyhawk Wars (which is somewhat at odds with the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, which places the Against the Giants series at roughly 584 CY, right at the end of the wars), or 2 years before the start of the Living Greyhawk 3.0 campaign (591 CY.)
When you come right down to it, it becomes a question of "What is Canon for Greyhawk?", which is a metric ton sized can o' worms which I have no desire to open.
When you come right down to it, it becomes a question of "What is Canon for Greyhawk?", which is a metric ton sized can o' worms which I have no desire to open.
I hear ya! I guess I'm mostly looking for ideas and inspiration for doing my own version of non-canonical Greyhawk.
Thanks for the dates - that's interesting and I hadn't pieced it together. You say the 584 date comes from LGG, but where does the 589 date come from? I was actually planning on setting the whole thing back in the 570s...
I hear ya! I guess I'm mostly looking for ideas and inspiration for doing my own version of non-canonical Greyhawk.
Thanks for the dates - that's interesting and I hadn't pieced it together. You say the 584 date comes from LGG, but where does the 589 date come from? I was actually planning on setting the whole thing back in the 570s...
589 CY? From Paul Kidd's novelization of QotDP, page 11.
(The new Expedition to the Demonweb Pits has some good stuff on her Aspects for 3E. And is generally good in general.)
My advice if you went 2E was to just let the PCs beat up an Avatar of her.
I haven't run GDQ since 1st edition, where the PCs pretty much totally crushed her with ease.
(The new Expedition to the Demonweb Pits has some good stuff on her Aspects for 3E. And is generally good in general.)
My advice if you went 2E was to just let the PCs beat up an Avatar of her.
I guess I better put Expedition to the Demonweb Pits on the purchase list. I'm heavily inclined to use 3.5 for this game. The main problem I see with 2E and 3E Avatars is that if the PCs kill an avatar, then it's not really much of a victory - Lolth can create a new one in fairly short order and get on with things, can't she? I don't have the 3E Deities & Demigods to know what that says, but in 2E terms, Lolth should have a half-dozen avatars running around as well as her big bad self, and that suggests to me that putting an Avatar in Q1 is just creating a Q2 "Lolth tracks down and murders the people that killed her avatar". The only way fighting Lolth in Q1 makes any sense is because you can actually hurt her, badly enough that she'll take ages to get strong again. If the best you can hope for is "nuisance", why bother?
All of which makes it seem like I'm rejecting your suggestion! Which I'm really not - it seems like the best option. I'm just wondering how to structure things around it. That's partly why I'm trying to think this through in advance - if I need a special reason why fighting through to Q1 and killing an Avatar will actually hurt Lolth, then knowing about it in advance will let me construct the campaign around it instead of retconning it in at the last minute...
Anyway, before Expedition to the DWP came out, my plan was to basically run it as is, upgraded, including Eclavadra again and other epic Drow in D3, and finally run Q1, but with Lolth being a Proxy (not an avatar, which in 3E is still way too powerful for the party). As a DvR1 Proxy, Lolth would technically be out 1 Divine Rank to this Epic Cleric, so if they party kills her, they take Lolth down 1 notch. Now as you note, this gives them a big giant target - but there are a couple of things that keep them alive. First off, this is not Lolth's only plot. She left sucking in Oerth to a single Proxy, so she must be busy sucking in many other worlds, and playing politics with the other gods with her other avatars and self - so she can't afford to come right after the PCs. Also, Greyhawk still has a nice ban on deity interaction on the material plane. This makes it the safest place to be after p***ing off Lolth. Even if she petitions for the right to go after the offenders, she will be denied from the good deities that supported them, and by the evil ones not wanting her influence in Greyhawk (Iuz, Vecna). She is allowed certain influence as long as it is secret.
EDWP has made me consider many changes, and I am working on how to use that Epic. I am thinking of making the plot more of the same - but the opening scene starts with a small drow fight - for that I will replace actually using D1-3 again. The end result won't be access to the demonweb so much, but knowledge of the plot via Rule of 3 (who needs an epic upgrade too). I believe there is a fight through the Fane of Eclavdra - so my plans may change if that is essentially D3. I think that the houses can be a challenge even at epic levels - especially with drow priestess tossing around 20-30 dispels a round.
Anyway, once they find out about the plot of EDWP, they will have little time to deal with it, and have to go through some demon lords (at least the aspects as presented in Fiendish Codex I) and the above Lolth Proxy.
ROB
Heh. These modules are like, I dunno, "Yesterday" - everyone's done a cover version and they all bring their own genius to it :-)
Scrambled Eggs Paul McCartney's original lyrics
"Oh, I'm eating
my Scrambled Eggs..."
I want to run GDQ with an eye on exploring the backstory and all the Gygaxian goodness, but that means I have to draw some lines between all the bits of goodness - either to connect them or separate them.
That means I need to decide on exactly what the Elder Elemental God is, and what Eclavdra's full plan for the giants was. (I've had some cool suggestions upthread for both of these - thanks!)
To understand the EEG, I need to decide what the relationship will be (in my campaign) between the EEG and Elemental Evil, and between the EEG and Tharizdun. I have a pretty good handle on Tharizdun - the books tend to agree on the big T in lots of ways - but Elemental Evil is tricky.
===
So, new question. In ToEE, there are a bunch of priests of Elemental Evil. Where do they get there spells from? From Zuggtmoy? From the Princes? From the EEG? From "the elements themselves" or some other alternative source?
(In RtToEE, the answer is 'From Tharizdun'.)
In fact, can the Princes of Elemental Evil grant spells? I don't think so - they're not divine - but I don't have enough of a grasp of how that all works to say with any certainty.
Paul McCartney's original lyrics
"Oh, I'm eating
my Scrambled Eggs..."
"EEG...
All my troubles seem to start with thee
Do you link up to the To-E-E?
I just want to run
the QDG...
Could you be...
just a masquerade by the big T?
In Monte's R-t-To-E-E
it said you were
(just secretly)...
Why E-
Clavdra made giants raid
I cannot see
She just
wanted power under our
ol' EEG!"
Mind you, it's also a situation where clumsy PCs may DIE HORRIBLY, but that's the price of Freedom!
Also, the version of the Demonweb Pits presented in Expedition takes all the cool bits from Q1 and puts them in a more logical framework (IMO).
Hmm. Among many things learned in this thread so far, here are two:
* killing Lolth's avatar can actually be a major victory, because it's not as if she's got all her other avatars and herself just sitting around waiting for a reason to hunt down some mortals - they're all up to something and an avatar death can really, really hurt her.
* Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is pretty much an essential purchase.
I think they are at least Divine Rank 0 - maybe 1-5. If you go with that they are 0 (slightly more powerful than in Dragon magazine) then they can't grant spells. Having the spells ultimately granted by Tharizdun would work, but then you would think Zuggtmoy would know she was a pawn. Instead, they could be granted by Iuz - since he is a god, but he was imprisoned at the time of the Battle of Emridy Meadows. 2E said imprisoned gods can't grant spells, 3E reverses that, and 1E was silent on it all.
That T is manipulating Iuz into granting spells for the Princes of Elemental Evil, who really serve him works best for me. T should be able to manipulate form beyond.
ROB
If you buy Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, you can basically throw out Q1 and use the Demonweb Pits section of Expedition as your endgame. It provides you with a situation in which killing one of Llolth's avatars will heavily ruin one of her big plans.
Is this feasible from a character level perspective? I don't remember the character levels of Exp to DW, but I was under the impression it was mid-level. With the current CRs of some of the giants, the conversions of the first three modules pretty much requires that the party be mid-teens before they hit the demonweb.
Greg
Dragon #285's 'Four In Darkness' article by Monte Cook, to accompany the release of RtToEE:
"The vile servants of Elemental Evil include clerics that draw upon the elements for power (or potentially, the Elemental Princes of Evil...)."
In the accompanying adventure Monte reveals it's Tharizdun who supplies the power, but the possibility of both direct-from-elements and from-the-Princes spell granting is at least mentioned here.
Anyway, my point is, that if the cultists of the ToEE believed fanatically in the power of the Elemental Princes, perhaps they could still cast spells and rebuke undead and gain domain powers by performing the right rituals, offering the right prayers, upholding the right ideals of Elemental Evil, etc. There would be no need for an intermediary like Tharizdun or Iuz.
Obviously, this flies in the face of what Rob says, and I'm not up to date on the Divine Rank rules at all, so I could be wrong. This is just an idea that I thought might help you out, Orgue.
Somebody should correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it says in the 3E Player's Handbook that a cleric need not worship a specific deity, instead dedicating himself to an ideal or philosophy. The book goes on to say (IIRC, I don't have the book with me right now) that such a cleric's spells and abilities come from his faith and dedication, not from a powerful entity like a god.
Anyway, my point is, that if the cultists of the ToEE believed fanatically in the power of the Elemental Princes, perhaps they could still cast spells and rebuke undead and gain domain powers by performing the right rituals, offering the right prayers, upholding the right ideals of Elemental Evil, etc. There would be no need for an intermediary like Tharizdun or Iuz.
Obviously, this flies in the face of what Rob says, and I'm not up to date on the Divine Rank rules at all, so I could be wrong. This is just an idea that I thought might help you out, Orgue.
That is a really helpful idea! Thanks for pointing it out!
I think ultimately what I decide will be based on what machinations I want going on in my game, so having this on the table is very helpful :-)
Dug out Dungeon's Istivin trilogy, after being reminded about it earlier in the thread - holy heck! I'd forgotten it was so heavily tied in! Issue 119's third part even has the vampire and succubus pair from D3 Vault of the Drow in it, as well as one of the Slave Lords!
Anyway, relevant to these purposes:
- GDQ was 18 years ago
- the second giant invasion was 10 years ago
- giant raids had always been a problem, but only when they became organised under Eclavdra did giants succeed in occupying the border forts
- a breakaway group of Eilservs drow, still worshipping the EEG, is infiltrating Istivin in order to gain control of an army to use against Erelhei-Cinlu
- this is interesting: "When Lolth unleashed her black hemisphere upon Istivin, Eilservs set into motion the simultaneous giant invasion of Sterich... [as their] own bid for power." This implies Eclavdra's gambit was launched *after* Lolth had set sights on Istivin. This runs counter to the implication in GDQ1-7 Queen of the Spiders, which suggests Lolth chooses Sterich and Istivin precisely because Eclavdra is 'softening it up'
- there's a cleric of the EEG as the main villain; his domains are Chaos and Earth (which is consistent with RtToEE's revelations about Tharizdun); there are also rules for Lesser Tentacle Rods and an altar of the EEG features prominently
- and it mentions that "Sterich has always had a reputation as an "unlucky" place, and further misfortunes are sure to come its way. Perhaps there is something to this reputation connecting it inexorably to the masters of the Abyss.
Hmm. This inspires some thoughts. Perhaps in my version, Eclavdra's plans for giants in Sterich are designed explicitly to counter Lolth's attempt to claim the world? Because somehow Eclavdra knew that Lolth would target Sterich (due to its connection to the Abyss)? That's a sound motivation - but it suggests that there's a way for giants raiding to somehow stop the Lolth-created black footprint of the Abyss.
Much to think about...
Is this feasible from a character level perspective? I don't remember the character levels of Exp to DW, but I was under the impression it was mid-level. With the current CRs of some of the giants, the conversions of the first three modules pretty much requires that the party be mid-teens before they hit the demonweb.
Greg
Expedition is mid-level. You can easily increase the dangers of Expedition by giving the PCs more demons to fight, though.
G1: Hill giants do not have any worship halls or clerics, except for the weird temple and "vestry" (level 2 areas 17a and 18). The purple stone, insanity, and "disgusting murals" lead into some other place that has long been buried. Given that the orc rebels have held out here against the hill giants, it is evidently of no great importance to Nosnra - presumably it's a temple of Tharizdun that dates from before the hill giants built their steading? In any case, no sign of hill giant worship in this module.
G2: Frost giants have no worship halls or clerics.
G3: There is a concealed worship hall for the Elder Elemental Eye, and three Drow clerics who are able to activate its altar. The giants and their servants and thralls worship here.
Sudden realisation: the other giants, allies of Snurre, don't know about Snurre's worship of the EEG! That's why rooms 9-12 are all concealed - so visitors to the fortress don't stumble into the dark worship hall or discover the Drow! The implication is, that if Snurre's adoption of the foul cult of the EEG became known, his giant allies would abandon him.
How does this work timewise, I wonder? The fire giant hall is obviously very, very old - there's a big mausoleum (level 2 area 1) going back many generations. However, there's also an elaborate worship hall (level 2 areas 9-11) that seems to have been constructed at the same time, and that contains an altar only the Drow can operate. So have the Drow been involved with these fire giants for many generations? No - because Obmi (level 1 area 12) has been an advisor for 25 years and only knows "a bit" about the Drow.
So this suggests to me this order of events:
- Snurre's hall exists with no Drow influence. Level 2 areas 9-11 are instead a hall for worship of Surtr, or have some other purpose.
- Eclavdra contacts Snurre and promises great power
- Snurre receives visits from Eclavdra
- Eclavdra introduces Snurre to worship of the EEG, and says this is the way to great power
- Eclavdra paints a picture of Snurre recruiting many other giants into an massive organised raid, promising Drow help (this is the letter found in level 2 area 13b)
- Snurre invites Eclavdra and her Drow into his hall and starts corresponding with other giants (also in level 2 area 13b)
- Eclavdra brings in an altar to the EEG and transforms level 2 areas 9-11 into a worship hall (and claims level 2 areas 12 for her use)
- Snurre and his hall start attending EEG services. Servants and thralls, dragged into the worship sessions, are eaten by the EEG and Snurre makes use of the wishes received in return
- When other giants visit Snurre, the worship of the EEG and the presence of the Drow is kept secret from them
All of which suggests a neat possible way to end the organized giant raids - by proving to Snurre's allies that Snurre has joined a cult so foul and depraved that even the other evil giants will not countenance it!
Have I missed anything that means this explanation doesn't make sense?
The G series does require higher levels than in previous editions, and I had expected Expedition to be higher level. That was a disappointment of it for me.
The ideas about turning in Snurre as a EEE worshipper is very cool. That would be a great way to handle the situation.
ROB
Is this feasible from a character level perspective? I don't remember the character levels of Exp to DW, but I was under the impression it was mid-level. With the current CRs of some of the giants, the conversions of the first three modules pretty much requires that the party be mid-teens before they hit the demonweb.
Greg
You would need to beef up the foes somewhat, but the plot would still work for higher level characters.
All of which suggests a neat possible way to end the organized giant raids - by proving to Snurre's allies that Snurre has joined a cult so foul and depraved that even the other evil giants will not countenance it!
Have I missed anything that means this explanation doesn't make sense?
It makes very good sense, I think. Good thinking!
===
Eclavdra's Plan
We know the following:
- The centre of the plan is "many giants wreak havoc on Sterich" (ref: letter from Eclavdra to Snurre, G3, lvl 1, area 13b)
- Eclavdra's goal is to gain supremacy in Erelhei-Cinlu (ref: D3 , the Vault, area 17)
- Lolth intends to claim Oerth via Sterich; this occurs simultaneously with Eclavdra's plans in the same area (ref: GDQ supermodule p.4)
- If Lolth's gambit succeeds, Eclavdra's dreams of power will inevitably end. (ref: GDQ supermodule p.4)
- Eclavdra doesn't abandon her plan when Lolth makes her move, so either she isn't aware of it, or she doesn't understand what is happening, or her plans will not be affected by it (ref: GDQ supermodule p.4)
- Lolth's Sterich gambit can only be halted by striking directly at Lolth (ref: GDQ supermodule p.121)
Eclavdra's plan is described as setting up a puppet kingdom on the surface of Oerth, and using the wealth and resources gained to exploit her position in the Vault. (ref: D3, Vault, area 17). It is also stated that she is unaware of Lolth's exact plans with the dark 'bubble' (ref: GDQ supermodule p.3).
I don't find this convincing because:
- The giants are a tenuous alliance of rapacious chaotic clans, and it is highly unlikely the alliance would last very long. (Especially if the worship of the EEG by Snurre is a secret, as discussed in a previous post.)
- Any organised resource-stripping of an entire realm would take enormous effort and co-ordination, which Eclavdra is not capable of doing.
- There is no indication that any system is being set up for other giants to funnel their plunder to Snurre (and thence to Eclavdra).
- The only way down to Erelhei-Cinlu is through the Hall of Snurre, and while there is Drow equipment for shipping treasure etc. across the lava river and down, it is not in place, implying that plunder is not a priority for Eclavdra (ref: G3, lvl 3, area 20)
- Eclavdra is supremely devious and quite well-informed (ref: G3, lvl 2, area 12) and if Lolth was acting in the same place she was, she would make it a priority to find out the implications of this.
So, with all of the above in mind, here is my personal version of Eclavdra's plan...
- Lolth decides to draw Oerth into the Demonweb. Knowing Sterich has ties to the Abyss (ref: Dungeon 119 p.57), she chooses that nation as her staging point, as crossing the dimensions is easier there.
- Eclavdra discovers this. She is the only one who knows - perhaps she found out through a timely sacrifice to the EEG and asked the right question at the right time? - but she knows that Sterich is Lolth's target.
- Eclavdra knows that if Lolth claims Oerth, then she will lose all her power, and probably be killed. She also knows that if she can check Lolth's plan, she will gain power in the Vault. She devises an audacious plan to do both.
- Her plan is this: when Lolth extends her power into Oerth, then Eclavdra will open the way for the EEG itself to enter Oerth and face the spider queen. The EEG's interference will destroy Lolth's plans, and hopefully will gain entrance into the Demonweb and cause much destruction there before Lolth can drive it off.
- Eclavdra knows that Sterich's dimensional walls are weak, but bringing forth the EEG is far from simple. To make this task easier, she must bring Chaos to the land of Sterich; ruin and disorder and destruction will make the task much easier. Furthermore, great sacrifices will be required; if she can sacrifice a mighty tribe of giants, that will be a great help.
- So Eclavdra contacts Snurre, and tempts him with the power of the EEG. Greedy for this power, Snurre follows Eclavdra's suggestions, turns his hall to the worship of the EEG, and proceeds to build an alliance of giants and start to raid Sterich.
- Eclavdra spreads as misinformation the popular explanation for her plans - to build a kingdom and thus gain wealth and power. She is being extremely careful to avoid letting Lolth know what she plans.
- As Eclavdra expected, Lolth's gambit begins, and Istivin is surrounded by a black bubble, slowly expanding... the giant raids continue and chaos spreads throughout the land... and Eclavdra waits for Lolth to step into Oerth herself, for then she will make her move, sacrifice the fire giants, and bring the EEG into the game.
Enter the PCs. If they sit by and do nothing, either Lolth will claim Oerth, or Eclavdra will stop Lolth but utterly destroy an entire human nation in the process. If they stop Eclavdra (whose giants are the immediate threat), then they must find another way of stopping Lolth.
---
That's what I'm thinking at the moment, anyway... probably more to come somewhere or other. Feedback welcome!
"In The Vault of the Drow (as a projection of herself) and Queen of the Demonweb Pits (up close and personal) adventures, the expectation was that your PCs might very well kill Lolth. What does that mean? You just killed a goddess? Is it OK for PCs to be able to do that?"
More at the link