Is there a feedback mechanism? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Is there a feedback mechanism?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
toptomcat
Jul 09, 2007 23:42:05 One of the central tropes of Planescape is that belief creates reality; the demons of Baator are the product of the belief in and conception of 'lawful evil.' Well and good. If something happens to change any facet of that concept concept (for example, communism replacing monarchy as the preeminant form of government on the Material Plane), then its planar 'reflection' will change as well (demons changing from feudal Lords and vassals to Premiers, commisars, and the like). Well and good.

The question is, does directly changing the manifestation of that belief have any impact on the belief itself? For example, would slaying each of the Lords of the Nine- or, hell, nuking the entirety of the Lower Planes into oblivion- actually concretely weaken the cause of Evil in any way? More specifically, would killing the 'Celestial of Justice' cause the general level of injustice on the Material to rise noticably?

Is demon-slaying an entirely pointless exercise?

Discuss.
#2
valadrim
Jul 10, 2007 0:57:36 Generally speaking, no. Celestials (and fiends) tend to be very good with replacments. As far as I know each of the Throne Archons have been killed and replaced at least once, if not more, with the sigular exception of Zaphkiel, and killing him would do nothing more than cause a short term disturbance, as being who have all of eternity to plan tend to have great contingency plans.

That being said, various baatezu and tanar'ri lords will also have plans which are contingent on any combination of their rivals being killed or indisposed and the elimination of any of the greater beings on the outerplanes would surely set of a myraid of events both blatant and subtle, complicated and convoluted beyond the comprehension of human beings, and should they be successful it is possible that the tide of the war could be pushed in one direction or the other.

But really, if you want to have an impact on a place, if you want to not just help people out, but change the face of the planes, you can't count on killing people who have dozens of brilliant and potentially more ruthless underlings, you have to go be a real hero. Put down that sword of demon slaying and teach compassion to the people of Ribcage, stop a war, raise a family, start a school, give strangers hugs. That will have a much greater chance of making the planes a better place than killing bad stuff.
#3
zombiegleemax
Jul 10, 2007 17:39:08 Randomly killing a fiend who's not a threat to anyone, or not planning anything evil at the moment, accomplishes very little if anything. Killing any particular fiend that happens to be currently up to something bad disrupts that particular fiend's plans, to the benefit of whomever he happened to be trying to screw today. Fortunately for the careers of paladins, there are extremely few demons that aren't up to anything. A'kin might be one, but even if he isn't there isn't enough evidence to tie him to anything... so he doesn't have random holy warriors coming for his head at all hours of the night.

War and violence, in and of themselves, are generally regarded as evils. Fighting for the cause of Good requires that one fight for good cause.
#4
da_black_cat_dup
Aug 17, 2007 7:19:05
The question is, does directly changing the manifestation of that belief have any impact on the belief itself? For example, would slaying each of the Lords of the Nine- or, hell, nuking the entirety of the Lower Planes into oblivion- actually concretely weaken the cause of Evil in any way? More specifically, would killing the 'Celestial of Justice' cause the general level of injustice on the Material to rise noticably?

To the extent that said 'Celestial of Justice' is an independent being, with its own beliefs and power to shape the Planes...
#5
zombiegleemax
Aug 17, 2007 12:05:58 It should also be noted that if a lot of people believe "Justice" is tied in with the continued existence of a particular being, and word gets around that someone has slain that being, then those people may begin to believe that Justice has suffered a blow... thereby weakening faith in Justice as an ideal or concept. So, to that extent, there might be some small feedback. Vice versa, if it was explicitly the Demon of Injustice that slew that celestial, people might be impressed and start thinking of that demon as more powerful, which could indeed translate into effective belief.

"It would take more than a man to thwart the Iron Prophecy... it would take a god."
"I just did it."
"...have you any particular holy days?"
*grows a divine rank* "...cool."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 toptomcat Jul 09, 2007 23:42:05	One of the central tropes of Planescape is that belief creates reality; the demons of Baator are the product of the belief in and conception of 'lawful evil.' Well and good. If something happens to change any facet of that concept concept (for example, communism replacing monarchy as the preeminant form of government on the Material Plane), then its planar 'reflection' will change as well (demons changing from feudal Lords and vassals to Premiers, commisars, and the like). Well and good. The question is, does directly changing the manifestation of that belief have any impact on the belief itself? For example, would slaying each of the Lords of the Nine- or, hell, nuking the entirety of the Lower Planes into oblivion- actually concretely weaken the cause of Evil in any way? More specifically, would killing the 'Celestial of Justice' cause the general level of injustice on the Material to rise noticably? Is demon-slaying an entirely pointless exercise? Discuss.
#2 valadrim Jul 10, 2007 0:57:36	Generally speaking, no. Celestials (and fiends) tend to be very good with replacments. As far as I know each of the Throne Archons have been killed and replaced at least once, if not more, with the sigular exception of Zaphkiel, and killing him would do nothing more than cause a short term disturbance, as being who have all of eternity to plan tend to have great contingency plans. That being said, various baatezu and tanar'ri lords will also have plans which are contingent on any combination of their rivals being killed or indisposed and the elimination of any of the greater beings on the outerplanes would surely set of a myraid of events both blatant and subtle, complicated and convoluted beyond the comprehension of human beings, and should they be successful it is possible that the tide of the war could be pushed in one direction or the other. But really, if you want to have an impact on a place, if you want to not just help people out, but change the face of the planes, you can't count on killing people who have dozens of brilliant and potentially more ruthless underlings, you have to go be a real hero. Put down that sword of demon slaying and teach compassion to the people of Ribcage, stop a war, raise a family, start a school, give strangers hugs. That will have a much greater chance of making the planes a better place than killing bad stuff.
#3 zombiegleemax Jul 10, 2007 17:39:08	Randomly killing a fiend who's not a threat to anyone, or not planning anything evil at the moment, accomplishes very little if anything. Killing any particular fiend that happens to be currently up to something bad disrupts that particular fiend's plans, to the benefit of whomever he happened to be trying to screw today. Fortunately for the careers of paladins, there are extremely few demons that aren't up to anything. A'kin might be one, but even if he isn't there isn't enough evidence to tie him to anything... so he doesn't have random holy warriors coming for his head at all hours of the night. War and violence, in and of themselves, are generally regarded as evils. Fighting for the cause of Good requires that one fight for good cause.
#4 da_black_cat_dup Aug 17, 2007 7:19:05	The question is, does directly changing the manifestation of that belief have any impact on the belief itself? For example, would slaying each of the Lords of the Nine- or, hell, nuking the entirety of the Lower Planes into oblivion- actually concretely weaken the cause of Evil in any way? More specifically, would killing the 'Celestial of Justice' cause the general level of injustice on the Material to rise noticably? To the extent that said 'Celestial of Justice' is an independent being, with its own beliefs and power to shape the Planes...
#5 zombiegleemax Aug 17, 2007 12:05:58	It should also be noted that if a lot of people believe "Justice" is tied in with the continued existence of a particular being, and word gets around that someone has slain that being, then those people may begin to believe that Justice has suffered a blow... thereby weakening faith in Justice as an ideal or concept. So, to that extent, there might be some small feedback. Vice versa, if it was explicitly the Demon of Injustice that slew that celestial, people might be impressed and start thinking of that demon as more powerful, which could indeed translate into effective belief. "It would take more than a man to thwart the Iron Prophecy... it would take a god." "I just did it." "...have you any particular holy days?" grows a divine rank "...cool."