It explains how in 3e, Krynn has its own cosmology. Any ideas on what Mystara 3e's transitive planes would be like? Would any of them be melded like in Krynn?
Travis
I found this post by a Dragonlance designer interesting and relevant for Mystara: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=13047057#post13047057
It explains how in 3e, Krynn has its own cosmology. Any ideas on what Mystara 3e's transitive planes would be like? Would any of them be melded like in Krynn?
I'm guessing they are like the Great Wheel (astral and ethereal). Mystaros' Multiverse Creation Epic had those two planes being one at one point though...
I once suggested using the Dimension of Nightmares to replace the Plane of Shadows, but most people didnt seem to like that idea, preferring to have it as an Alternate Prime. The Spirit World could also be a Transitive Plane IMO...
Havard
Astral
Ethereal
Spirit World
The Astral and Ethereal may or may not be quite the same as they are in 3E cosmology. They both worked differently from their AD&D equivalents (as described chiefly in the Gold Box Immortals set), and I kind of like the notion of keeping them that way, if only due to the depth of development they were given. I'm not quite sure how that would affect things, though.
As they stood in the Gold Box, the Astral didn't directly connect with the Prime or Elemental Planes, but only with the Ethereal. In 3E (and AD&D) the Astral did directly connect- which allowed for closer contact with the Outer Planes (Prime - Astral - Outer).
Under the Gold Box, it would be more distant (Prime - Ethereal - Astral - Outer), but I'm not entirely certain how (if?) that would affect anything at all, honestly. Would it make Contact Outer Planes more difficult? I suppose, but it's really just adding an additional intermediary and wouldn't (IMO) completely negate it; same with spells that rely on Outer Planar contact (Monster Summoning and the like).
In any event, my notion was that there were two Primes- Normal and Nightmare (an adaptation of the Gold Box Dimension concept), each with its own Ethereal and Elemental Planes, and the Spirit Plane was a transitive plane connecting the two (a modification of the Spirit World concept from Gaz12, which- IIRC, is only a specific Outer Plane there). The Astral surrounds them all, and can only be accessed through the Ethereal Plane (either one), and the Outer Planes from there.
The Spirit Plane, in my cosmology, essentially replaces the Shadow Plane in function (as a transitive), and allows access to other worlds/cosmologies as well (such as via stonehenges, fairy rings, and the like).
A concept I once toyed with- but didn't get too far with, as I couldn't get tear myself away from clinging too tightly to the real worlds physics of it- was that the notion of darkness/shadow was actually due to reflections from the higher dimensions of the Nightmare realms (much as its speculated they may be reflections of light from the post-fourth dimensions in the real world). Which would make Shadows Nightmare beings. Of course, with AD&D/3E, Shadows are undead instead of just cool strength-draining magical beings like in OD&D.
Your model also retains the idea that Nightmare has its own transitive and inner and outer planes which is in accordance with the Gold Box. I guess this is a good thing, though the outer planes are weird enough themselves, how weird would the Nightmare Outer Planes be?
With Shadows I'm thinking we should turn the Classic D&D creatures into "Nightmare Shadows" - a separate, non-undead creature different from the Undead Shadows. Probably they should be Outsiders in 3E terms. We could even add some funky features like 'Starring into the darkness of a Nightmare Shadow will reveal to you your worst nightmare' or something to stress the difference between the two.
Where do other Alternate Primes fit into this? I'm thinking Laterre/Myth, Alphatia (possibly), Aeolos etc. Also, to throw in a different concept: What do you think of the idea of accessing Alternate Primes through the Void? Possibly via the Void of the Spirit World, aka the phlogiston? Hrrrm...
As to the minor differences between the natures of the Ethereal and Astral in 3E and Classic, I dont know if they matter that much. The 3E one looks a bit more structured, but from what I understand the changes don't really matter all that much in practical terms.
Havard
I'd assume it would effectively be another Transitive Plane, accessible only through the Astral (through certain highly rare and largely remote Color Pools, or some kind of odd equivalent). As to what it is a Transition to, that's a good question.
I imagine the Far Realm could be on that end of things, if one were to go with the notion of a Far Realm in addition to/in lieu of the domains of Nightmare. Perhaps other cosmologies lay on that end- like the other Outer Planes of Faerun, etc.?
Something to think about, that's sure. Hmm...
The other thing I was thinking about, going back to the 3E vs. OD&D cosmologies: In 3E, the concept of Ectoplasm seems to be that it is an Astral substance, whereas in OD&D (via the Haunts), Ectoplasm is presented as an Ethereal substance. I always preferred the Ethereal notion myself (it just seemed to fit better), but that is something we'd have to take into consideration in terms of explaining the Mystara cosmology.
What exists beyond the Immortal Storm that seals off the sixth and higher dimensions from the four-dimensional multiverse we know? I think it's a good idea to leave that mysterious. Such things are beyond mortal comprehension, and beyond the knowledge of even the Hierarchs.
On ectoplasm: Insofar as it's associated with ghosts, it describes an ethereal substance, since that's where ghosts predominantly roam (the Ghostwalk campaign uses the term that way). The ghostly slime, or the substance of incorporeal undead, could be called "ectoplasm." The ethereal medium exists in both foglike and solid states, as 0D&D said, but I don't think "ectoplasm" is the best word to describe solid ether, which is how the Companion Set used it. I prefer "protomatter," for a variety of reasons.
Ectoplasm in the sense of the Astral Plane - it's not even really clear what that refers to, but it probably means the solid thoughts that blow through the Astral Void, which are evidently shapable by psionicists. If there are no psionic characters in a Mystaran campaign, the word in this sense can be dropped with no problems.
However, for 3e Forgotten Realms, the designers went even further...they didn't only piece together a cosmology based on past references (as the Realms were tied into the Great Wheel from the start)...they invented an entirely new Great Tree cosmology that simply matched the flavor and raison-d'etre of the Realms.
Likewise, even Oerth's Great Wheel was drastically changed for 3e. For example, the Para- and Quasi-elemental planes disappeared and the Plane of Shadow appeared as a major part of the scheme. The events which caused this reality shift occurred in the Die Vecna Die! module.
Putting myself out on a limb: what do y'all think about making a similarly drastic change in Mystara's cosmology for 3e (or 4e)? Specifically, how do you feel about reshaping the cosmology so that the Five Spheres have a concrete reality (beyond the specific planes of Brynn, Entrem, and so on), instead of their OD&D status as philosophical alliances, and thus making the Five Spheres the basis for the entire cosmology? Aren't the Five Spheres the most "Mystaran" of the various aspects of the OD&D cosmology? Since the old days, haven't casual Mystaraphiles been confused about the Spheres not being actual places? Well, in this conception, Oerth would have its Great Wheel, Toril its Great Tree, and Mystara would have its Five Spheres. Though it's drastic, I feel it's drastic in a "More Mystaran than Mystara" sort of way. As a thought experiment, how would a Five Spheres cosmology be implemented?
Travis
P.S. I find it interesting to read the MM paragraphs on "using such-and-such monster" in Faerun or Eberron, to see how outsiders are placed in Eberron's orrery- or atom-like cosmology and Toril's Great Tree. Also Eberron's cosmology is a good example of how different Mystara's cosmology can be: even though Eberron is designed so that "if it's in D&D, it's in Eberron", Eberron doesn't even have separate Elemental Planes...in Eberron, various Outer Planes fill this niche (reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Plane#Eberron_cosmology).
Ectoplasm in the sense of the Astral Plane - it's not even really clear what that refers to, but it probably means the solid thoughts that blow through the Astral Void, which are evidently shapable by psionicists. If there are no psionic characters in a Mystaran campaign, the word in this sense can be dropped with no problems.
Even without Psionicists, Astral Ectoplasm could be material manifestations of the Sphere of Thought...
We could distinquish between Astral and Ethereal Ectoplasm using the definitions you present Rip. Sounds like Ethereal Ectoplasm is more closely linked to Entropy.
Havard
As a thought experiment, how would a Five Spheres cosmology be implemented?
Conceivably, the elemental planes could be dropped, making them just aspects of the spheres. So fire elementals could come from the Sphere of Energy, air elementals could come form the Sphere of Thought, and so on. Nightshades and the like could come from the Sphere of Entropy.
I'd rather not go that far, personally. I'd like it better if there was a contrast between the material Elemental Planes in the Ethereal and the parallel spiritual Spheres of Existence in the Astral. Replacing the independent Outer Planes of the Gold Box with five shared planes doesn't sound like a terrible idea, though. The Nine Worlds from The Northern Reaches could be regions within them (Midgard excluded, which would be a parallel Prime and possibly the same as Laterre), Yggdrasil connecting them all.
That would mean having to ignore or modify some of the old modules, though. Would the simpler cosmology be worth that?
For the record, I don't like the new Forgotten Realms cosmology. It makes it so much harder to use generic planar products in that world, it distorts and mangles the generic outsiders, and I think it adds nothing to the worlds's flavor. I'm much more open to modifying Mystara's cosmos, though, because it started out with its own set of planes (and its own rules!) and because later iterations added more wrinkles that haven't yet been fully consolidated into the system.
Die, Vecna, Die doesn't really explain any cosmological changes, by the way, since none of the specific cosmological changes mentioned at the end of that module happened, and those that did happen are treated as having always been, or having different explanations. That module's been pretty much ignored in 3e, and I wouldn't count it as an explanation for anything other than Vecna's freedom from Ravenloft.
Putting myself out on a limb: what do y'all think about making a similarly drastic change in Mystara's cosmology for 3e (or 4e)? Specifically, how do you feel about reshaping the cosmology so that the Five Spheres have a concrete reality (beyond the specific planes of Brynn, Entrem, and so on), instead of their OD&D status as philosophical alliances, and thus making the Five Spheres the basis for the entire cosmology? Aren't the Five Spheres the most "Mystaran" of the various aspects of the OD&D cosmology?
I like to see this exercised out. I'd help as far as my limited knowledge in this area will go (never done a plane-traveling game before). My input will have to wait until after the weekend though because I leave this evening to go to Quebec for our annual conference.
The idea of creating a Mystaran cosmology that incorporates all the OD&D ideas and references is very appealing to me. Plus, I really like the Five Spheres centric foundation. We'll have to consider how it's present arrangement formed from the old arrangement described in PC1. This will certainly be an interesting creative exercise.
If you want to have each sphere have a definite location, then have each have a primary outer plane (with the names from the gold box set). This plane isn't the home plane of any immortal of that sphere. Rather, it represents a common meeting area and neutral ground for all immortals of that sphere, and is heavily infused with the essence of that sphere. Many immortals would have a home there, but it wouldn't be their home plane.
Replacing the independent Outer Planes of the Gold Box with five shared planes doesn't sound like a terrible idea, though.
I'm not so much thinking of there being only five planes, with all the Outer Planes demoted to being "layers" of those planes. The Great Wheel isn't only one plane...it's simply the shape of the cosmology. I'm thinking more along the lines of the "cosmological map" (of at least the Outer Planes) being shaped like five balls, possibly with the five iconic planes (Pyts, Mirage, etc.) at the center of each ball. Or more drastically, the features and Immortal realms of those five iconic planes could be divvied up into various Outer Planes, while leaving their monikers to be applied to the Spheres themselves, like: Pyts: The Sphere of Death, Entrem: The Sphere of Time, and so on. Every Outer Plane would be located in one of the Spheres, and all Five Spheres would float in the Astral. The entire Five Spheres cosmology would be surrounded by the Vortex. Of course many of the planes are infinite in size...the shape of the cosmology is mostly a conceptual tool (besides its concrete effects on how a character traverses the cosmology, or how some spells work).
Conceivably, the elemental planes could be dropped, making them just aspects of the spheres. So fire elementals could come from the Sphere of Energy, air elementals could come form the Sphere of Thought, and so on. Nightshades and the like could come from the Sphere of Entropy.
I'd rather not go that far, personally. I'd like it better if there was a contrast between the material Elemental Planes in the Ethereal and the parallel spiritual Spheres of Existence in the Astral.
I'm not certain that the Elemental Planes would be melded into the "Five Spheres proper". They could remain separate, just as the Elemental Planes of the Great Wheel cosmology are not actually in the "Great Wheel proper". The Inner Planes (Material and Elemental) could be conceptually located in the "space" in the middle of the Five Spheres. Within the Inner Planes, the Material Plane would be in the center, surrounded by the Elemental Planes, with the Elemental Planes oriented so that they juxtapose their affiliated Sphere of Outer Planes. A Negative Energy Plane would fill the same role in the Sphere of Entropy, making the Negative another Inner Plane.
That would mean having to ignore or modify some of the old modules, though. Would the simpler cosmology be worth that?
All BECMI and 2e Mystara modules would have to be altered somewhat to fit in the 3e Reality, and vice versa. Though I'd hope that the designers of any 4e Mystara Campaign Setting would take every tidbit that's ever been written about Mystara into account in re-imagining the setting, in the end, I'm more concerned with cultivating the "spirit" of Mystara rather than the "letter".
I'm not set on this Five Spheres idea...I'd be happy with any cosmology that was true to the spirit of Mystara. However, I want to explore this concept a little bit....thanks everybody for humoring me :D .
Die, Vecna, Die doesn't really explain any cosmological changes, by the way, since none of the specific cosmological changes mentioned at the end of that module happened, and those that did happen are treated as having always been, or having different explanations. That module's been pretty much ignored in 3e, and I wouldn't count it as an explanation for anything other than Vecna's freedom from Ravenloft.
Maybe I'm naming the wrong module. There was some late 2e Vecna module I flipped through in the bookstore back around 1999, where at the end of the adventure it said something like (I'm paraphrasing very loosely): "The fabric of reality is changing. Planes and creatures that once existed, now never even existed. New planes and creatures are coming into existence as if they alway existed."
Weren't these hints that the Demiplane of Shadow was becoming a full-fledged plane? Wasn't this passage an explanation of how, for example, the niche of piercers and modrons in the 2e Reality became filled by darkmantles and formians in the 3.0 Reality? (Even if piercers and modrons made an appearance in some later 3e product or DRAGON magazine article, their status in the 3e Reality was diminished from what it was previously.)
In any case, even if the exact cosmological changes mentioned in the module were later modified in the 3e Manual of the Planes, it still seems to me that these events lay the foundation for the 3e Reality.
As far as I understand it, what happened was at the end of that adventure, the 3e Reality washed over the 2e Reality, and remade history as if the 3e Reality had always been there. Even though there will likely never be another official product describing the 2e Reality (or the 1e and BECMI Realities), and even though the 3e Reality adopted and adapted most of the events and features of those older Realities, it doesn't mean those Realities don't still exist. In fact, they obviously do exist, since we own TSR- and WotC-published BECMI and 2e books that depict those "older" Realities.
Travis
Maybe I'm naming the wrong module.
You're naming the right one. It's just that it was never really used that way in 3e, even if the 2e designers had intended it that way.
Wasn't this passage an explanation of how, for example, the niche of piercers and modrons in the 2e Reality became filled by darkmantles and formians in the 3.0 Reality?
Not really. At least, no one's ever claimed that.
I think the most you can say, assuming you really wanted to, is that in your own campaign Vecna entering Sigil made all those changes to reality. I don't think you could say it was the official explanation, though. The module listed some very specific cosmological changes that simply didn't happen, and failed to mention any of the ones that did.
One thing that is interesting with the 3E setup of alternate primes is that (at least from how I understand it) you can have a situation where an alternate prime, like Aelos or Old Alphatia, while separate can have a shared planar setup.
I don't really see any reason why primes like these should have their own set of ethereal, astral, inner and outer planes or even their own groups of immortals. Nightmare OTOH should clearly have a separate planar structure. I am not quite sure on Laterre. I like the idea someone presented about Laterre being closer to Nightmare, being slowly influenced by the dark elements there. This fits better with the older version of Laterre though, and not so much with the concept of the Dimension of Myth as presented in WotI.
Thoughts on this?
Havard