So how then, did the Tyr region develop the way it did, and how might other regions differ? How did the Rhulisti develop an advanced society of bioengineers without first passing through industrial and technological stages? What was the transition to the feral halflings and Rebirth races like? If all living things have some innate potential for psionics, why did it not appear until the Green Age? And how did they spread to the halflings, who
showed no ability for it before the Green, but by the Brown age it has become a vital part of their culture?
Well, I have given these questions some thought, (and scrounged around for whatever scraps of information I could find. I don't have Windriders, Psionic Artifacts, or Mindlords, which seem to contain most of the official information on the subject, but I found discussions of some of the information in them) and have come up with some ideas that work towards answering them. Thus this thread was born, as a place to post them (soon), and for others to share their own ideas on the subject.
How did the Rhulisti develop an advanced society of bioengineers without first passing through industrial and technological stages?
Why do you assume they would have to? If they discovered the principles of bio-engineering and genetics early (and even just ignoring the whole "this is fantasy" aspect), then their technological development would have taken an entirely different track than Earth (and specifically Western Europe).
Which isn't to say it couldn't have been similar, only that assuming an industrial society would have been necessary is an assumption that doesn't need to be made.
If all living things have some innate potential for psionics, why did it not appear until the Green Age? And how did they spread to the halflings, who
showed no ability for it before the Green, but by the Brown age it has become a vital part of their culture?
Officially, psionics were the result of a psionic-bomb which reduced the gith to savagery, but birthed the capacity for psionics in all other races. This information is available (IIRC) in the Black Spine adventure.
Why do you assume they would have to? If they discovered the principles of bio-engineering and genetics early (and even just ignoring the whole "this is fantasy" aspect), then their technological development would have taken an entirely different track than Earth (and specifically Western Europe).
Which isn't to say it couldn't have been similar, only that assuming an industrial society would have been necessary is an assumption that doesn't need to be made.
I suppose I phrased the question that way because of my own observation that the ages of Dark Sun are similar to the classical Greek Ages of Man, and the reverse of ours. Where went from stone and bone and supernatural rituals to industrial and post-industrial, and perhaps eventually to organic technology that operates without damaging our environment, Dark Sun says, "well what if things were pretty good, and just went downhill from there."
So the real point of the question, had I phrased it better, is that as we understand it most humanoid soceities develop along the lines of tool use (it's what those big brains and opposable thumbs are good for), so what sort of circumstances would allow the ancient halflings to develop genetic manipulation before complex tool use?
My own theory is that the Blue Age was a veritable garden of Eden for the young halfling race. Things like plants with web-like branches that dangle in the water and catch fish that the halflings needed only pull up would provide an almost symbiotic relationship with the halflings, keeping them from needing to develop tools to survive. The substance that the halflings first began to develop life shaping techniques is described as "a porous living stone found in the depths of the sea" so I'm thinking something like coral. Perhaps the halflings found an organism that produced oxygen from water at a continuous rate, and wrapped it around their face in order to do deep sea diving. The bright colors would have caught the halfling's attention, and they might have used it for onamentation before discovering that it could be trained to grow in a variety of shapes. The realization that they could influence other creatures development set them on the path toward nature mastery.
Officially, psionics were the result of a psionic-bomb which reduced the gith to savagery, but birthed the capacity for psionics in all other races. This information is available (IIRC) in the Black Spine adventure.
From what I saw of that reference, its only put forward as a possibility, and I have my own reasons for not wanting to use it. The main one being that I'd rather leave Githyanki and Githzerai out of the development of Athas, as they're non-native to the Athasian cosmology. I'd like to define Athas as it's own world, without trying to make it remotely connected to the standard D&D multiverse in any way, for my own personal use.
I touched on this briefly from my own campaign in this thread here. It deals with alot of pre-Blue Age plot, and I had treated the Green Age development of psionics much like the X-Men, where they were at first hated and feared for being different, and now it's normal to have some psionic ability.
The thread you linked to shows only your pre-Blue Age ideas. Of course, feel free to post about your Blue and Green age ideas here :D
Wait a few more time until the Life-Shaping Handbook beta is released, I'm sure it will answer some of your questions (it will also create some more, but who's counting :P )
Great! I look forwards to more official material on the subject. Until then I'm just going to keep posting my ideas here, in the hopes of encouraging others to share their thoughts.
As the halfling population continued to grow, presumabaly they would have swum to nearby islands or with the help of a SCUBA organism, could have hitched a ride with a docile underwater creature to further islands. As their ability with lifeshaping grew, they might create creatures that could swim faster and for longer periods of time before tiring, and eventually create living islands that would ride the currents and provide a constant supply of food. This would be the great age of exploration for the ancient halflings, and they would spread over the entire face of Athas.
This would also be the beginning of "Nature Benders." As the halflings spread out they would encounter different habitats and ecological systems, and settlers would begin to develop unique cultural traditions. The only difference between the nature masters and nature benders is that benders manipulate creatures in immoral ways. Some things that might be taboo for nature masters could be: Never create sentient life; Never create a species that can't reproduce; Never create a species that can reproduce; Never create predatory creatures; Never create creatures without an inherent weakness (in case it turns on you); Never create creatures that are intentionally impaired; Never use lifeshaping on a halfling.
The last is the only one I see as being common to (nearly) all halfling communities, and several of the examples above are mutually exclusive, so in my view of the Blue age, Nature Bender means "those who don't uphold our morals". Thus most halflings would consider lifeshapers of their own culture, and nearby cultures with similar ideals, to be nature masters (except for the occasional deviant who might get killed or exiled if caught) and those of more distant cultures to be nature benders.
While I don't think there's any official information one way or another, the impression that I get is that halflings discovered the elemental planes later in their progression, as they came to realize that all material things (and in particular all the living things they had been shaping up till then) were built out of tiny bits of each of the four elements. I picture the first halfling "Clerics" being very different from those of later ages, in that they would have had an almost scientific approach to studying the elemental planes and the beings that inhabited them. The first pacts of elemental initiation would be a means of keeping open communication so that the halflings could come to understand these strange creatures that possessed a level of intelligence equal to or greater than that of the Rhul-Thaun.
If I combine this idea of non-religious clerics with the lack of psionics (as I stated in my previous post I choose to ignore the Black Spine origin of psionics and assume the potential for psionics always existed. Since to my knowledge it was only presented as a possibility anyways, I don't feel like I'm ignoring cannon.) the first age halflings appear not to be an introspective people, and I actually like it that way. I see them as a curious and creative people, fascinated by the physical world and how they can manipulate it for the good of their race, full of stories of adventure on the open sea, but uncomfortable with thinking about their inner nature and spiritual things.
The Mindë theory (IT as a name just for writing convenience) Mindë was created by the fusion of all four primary elemental planes (the ethereal center point of their connection)How the fusion was meant to be is not known.
Mindë has two aspects
1. Solid (in all liquid)
2. Ethereal (link to the elemental planes)
To make it short Mindë was the essence witch made life on Athas possible. It was the DNA of all living things either animal or plant. Without Mindë, life would still have been possible on Athas of course but at a much slower rate of evolution. Quite similar to earth’s own: where thousands of years are needed for evolution to occur.
So the Essence of Life could be found in every living creature which Rajaat would later find a way to manipulate to create magic but because of the nature of athasian magic (instantaneous result) it would destroy the essence used hence destroying the recipient: plant, animal.
As on Earth, in the Blue Age water covered 90% of the planet--what is known as canon at any rate and so like on Earth, Athasian life began in the oceans. Of course insects of all species could already be discovered on most of the islands: one of them, being the primitive Kreens which were at the time, about 6 inches long.
In my campaign the first intelligent race to roam the oceans were not the Rhulisti but a water dwelling mammal: the Dolphins
The Dolphins of the Blue Age were more intellectually and physically developed then their counterpart of today’s Athas. (Their decline is due to the receding of the oceans during the Brown tide and the cleansing wars.
After the Brown Tide era Dolphins were still quite adept in manipulating water. It was never historicaly recorded because no humans has ever witness any water manipulation feat done buy a Dolphins. The one exception would be the early Rhul-thaun but even they would rarely witness it: Dolphins seem to know who created this brown sickness.
In the Blue Age era,Athasian dolphins being what they were and what they could do developed a talent for water manipulation through their echo brain waves. At the time it was the closest thing to psionic on Athas. With time, some of the more evolved started manipulating a material which was the solid form of the Essence of Life (similar to DNA) of Athas: Corals.
Side note: It was lost in time and history so even the Great Wanderer could not have known, thus not written it in his book describing the Rhul-Thaun race (WotJC) but during the Blue Age several Coral varieties existed and so different DNA for different type. So when the water receded from the land killing several varieties of corals, it engendered the decline of the Rhulisti because without specific type of corals, many life-shaping tools/creatures/graphs were lost hence their way of living was greatly hindered.
Description of Athasian Corals
1. Coral was a very slow growing rock-plant with tremendous attribute for those who knew where to look.
2. Coral was an organic recipient for strong concentration of Athasian essence (DNA) That essence was in raw state capable, with the right manipulation, to create life of all type (depending on the type of coral used.)
3. Some varieties were rarer than others due to their slow growing state making them even more precious but imbued with DNA capable of creating wonders such as some Rhulistic artefacts.) Those had the highest ethereal imprint. (Remember that the ethereal side of Mindë is a strong link to the raw power of the elements.
That said: what use had the Dolphins from Corals?? Not much really. Although they had discovered the organic material, Dolphins had neither great knowledge nor any need of it. Every dolphin’s need could be manipulated through water although not in a permanent state. Never the less some Dolphins did create out of coral organism.
Side note: A Rhul-thaun archaeologist by the name of Ghav-olus once found what seemed to be a strange apparatus not far from a dolphin fossil. In one of his many conferences in Thamasku, Ghav-olus elaborated that the apparatus, which he named the Ramming Spear, must have been some sort of ramming weapon used by ancient Dolphins to ram the thick hide of the one creature all Dolphins learned to fear: the Squark: a half-shark half-squid creature. The Ramming Spear was evidently crudely made but it was proven that it was grown through life-shaping.
The following has never been proven anywhere in the history of Halflings but it is supposed that at some stage in their history, a group of Dolphins discovered a great half submerged underwater chamber situated somewhere beneath a mountain in the region known today as the Koschak Mountains which reside the strangest organic life form. The life form in itself was in no part in the water consequently the Dolphins could not investigate it but strangely not many days after the discovery, a new race appeared on Athas. Maybe the mere presence of another life form in the vicinity of the strange organism triggered ….it’s function.
The Dolphins and the new arrived race later known as the Rhulisti quickly befriended and communally aided one and other to thrive on Athas. The Halflings would quickly learn the presence of the corals and being a race with a aptitude for creation rapidly became skilled at its true potential.
After that, the Rhulisti became the masters of the world but with a profound respect for all living organism on Athas.
(Think of it as if we humans could use 70% of our brain capacity what wonders we could achieve.—for those who don’t know, humans are using only 10% of their brain capacity and that is real.)
Just a quick note, to try and help stop the continuing spread of this thing, but the above statement is not true -- it is an urban myth that has gained status as fact through repetition. The reality is that humans use all 100% of their brains.
On another note, I've noticed a trend in people's thinking, gravitating towards the Brown Tide having been some sort of bio-weapon. I think that goes against (what I interpret as) the original intention of the Tide and its consequences. I think it was meant to give Athas a kind of "paradise lost" theme, where the Rhulisti had a perfect world, then screwed it all up trying to make it even better. This theme is repeated in the devastation of the world at the hands of Defilers who thought they were helping make the world a better place again(although this was by acts of genocide, rather than a beneficent act like doubling the ocean's capacity to support life). I've always thought that one of the major themes of Dark Sun was it being a world screwed up by the best of intentions, not a world screwed up through an act of war and the mistake being compounded over and over again.
Just a quick note, to try and help stop the continuing spread of this thing, but the above statement is not true -- it is an urban myth that has gained status as fact through repetition. The reality is that humans use all 100% of their brains.
Are you telling me that when my mother told me not to worry. That all humans used only 10% of their brain capacity, she was merely saying that to appease my fears?????
Darn!! I should have known....then again, how could I!?
:D Guess I'll have to EDIT my post to the best of myknowledge:D
On another note, I've noticed a trend in people's thinking, gravitating towards the Brown Tide having been some sort of bio-weapon. I think that goes against (what I interpret as) the original intention of the Tide and its consequences. I think it was meant to give Athas a kind of "paradise lost" theme, where the Rhulisti had a perfect world, then screwed it all up trying to make it even better. This theme is repeated in the devastation of the world at the hands of Defilers who thought they were helping make the world a better place again(although this was by acts of genocide, rather than a beneficent act like doubling the ocean's capacity to support life). I've always thought that one of the major themes of Dark Sun was it being a world screwed up by the best of intentions, not a world screwed up through an act of war and the mistake being compounded over and over again.
I'm also of the belief that the Blue Age was very close to being paradise. I imagine storms (and occasional typhoons and tsunamis) and preadators were the only hardships halflings faced from Athas, and that they quickly learned how to protect themselves from these, and perhaps eventually mastered both. With the abundance of natural resources, halfling wars were probably fought over ideological differences. Well, I'd like to think there were multiple halfling wars, because having only one war in the history of the race seems kind of boring. :P
As for the Brown Tide, we know that halflings did create biological weapons (has anyone ever heard of them creating something not biological?), but something that causes full scale ecoterrorism doesn't seem to suit them. Besides which, published material states that this was explicitly not the case with the Brown Tide. Like you said, the goal was to increase the ocean's food capacity. The halflings and their live-shaped creations had probably grown in number to the point where the environment couldn't provide enough food sto support them all. Looming threat of negative population growth. Worldwide concern for halflings everywhere and all that.
Jihun, I really like the idea of adding dolphins to the Blue Age, and the idea of them giving halflings the first batch of coral. That said, if the Blue Age ever comes up in my own games, dolphins probably won't have any from of advanced technology or psionic/magical powers. Even normal dolphins have a magic all their own. ;)
Well I didn't add them to the Blue Age myself since it is canon material that they did exist during that era. The survivors of the race now all live in the last sea situated high north of the Tyr region. (See Mind Lords of the Last sea accessory book)
That said in my campaign all my players (all Rhul-thaun charachters )had read the WotJC accessory book and since my campaign was based on their origin and maybe a way to improve their way of life (by finding new life-shape rituals to name just one) I had to change the history to some extent. Since I knew there were dolphins and that my players knew of their existence in the past I concocted the legend that dolphins were more then they seemed. And so it was they who discovered the first Halflings not the way around.
As for dolphins having psionic/magic powers….. That is not what I meant.
In my campaign they could use their echo locator organ in conjunction with some sort of brain wave allowing some of them to manipulate water around them. Like highly dense area of water creating some sort of wall against sharks (for example) allowing the feeble to escape. As for them being able to ‘’life-shape’’ corals they could do it in a crude sort of way by again, using their water high density feat creating semi-solid appendages (fingers) in conjunction with their echo location feat to trigger the essence of life. Like the Rhulisti’s, the process took time and it was laborious manipulation. And even then, Dolphins could only ‘’grow’’ crude tools and weapons. One of those tools was a strange apparatus that they used to open giant sea shells: their most cherished delicacy.
Although ethereal imprint (the natural magic link to the elemental planes) was present in some of the corals they ''Life-shaped'', Dolphins never could trigger it.
That was to the Rhulistis to find therefore creating wonders.
There's even an evil Tide!
Well I didn't add them to the Blue Age myself since it is canon material that they did exist during that era. The survivors of the race now all live in the last sea situated high north of the Tyr region. (See Mind Lords of the Last sea accessory book)
Okay, I guess I'll have to pick that one up sometime.
As for dolphins having psionic/magic powers….. That is not what I meant.
In my campaign they could use their echo locator organ in conjunction with some sort of brain wave allowing some of them to manipulate water around them. Like highly dense area of water creating some sort of wall against sharks (for example) allowing the feeble to escape.
Maybe I phrased that wrong...If you were to stat up Blue Age dolphins from your campaign, would you make their water solidifying ability Extraordinary (Ex) or Supernatural (Su)?
In my campaign, I make the end of the Blue Age like Pirates of Dark Water.
There's even an evil Tide!
I think I only ever saw a single episode of The Pirates of Dark Water, and I don't even remember what it was about. I'd love to hear some details on how you merged the two ideas though.
As for me, I've laid out my concept of a halfling race that rose from humble beginnings to cover the entire face of Athas, through the use of biological manipulation. How do we get from there to a world where they exist only in small pockets, surrounded by other races?
Some things we do know. Some halfling life-shapers realized that the oceans had begun to reach their limit as far as food production, and foresaw the need to create a new creature that would surpass this limit. Presumably it would consume the micro-organisms at the bottom of the food chain, reproduce extensively, and become food for what would have originally eaten the micro-organisms. I doubt halflings ever intended to eat what came to be called the Brown Tide directly. However, they made to too well. It consumed things it wasn't intended to, and spread out of control at an impossible rate. Wherever it spread, it left lifeless currents and pools. Those halflings who had hoped for a feast instead found famine.
The Brown Tide was probably not created by the Rhul-Thaun of the Tyr region. After all, they clearly had time to create a countermeasure to it, so taking into consideration the rate at which it spread, it probably originated fairly far away. Many halfling societies had probably been wiped out by starvation, or the Brown Tide itself if they lived on living islands or in underwater cities, by the time the Brown Tide was defeated. Starving without their regular food sources, their life shaped creations dying off around them, a strange sun above and the oceans beginning to drop away below, the halfling civilization was in ruin.
I think that the halflings recognized the Brown Tide as a life-shaped creature, and the thought really hit them hard. They had thought that nature had utterly submitted, but they pushed to far, and nature had it's revenge. Those halflings whose lands had not yet been reached by the Brown Tide may have kept their faith in life-shaping would still be able to support themselves in part from the now dwindling sea. Some of these groups would have preserved their life-shaping traditions and developed into groups like the Jagged Cliff halflings.
Other life-shapers such as those from the halflings who came to inhabit the Forest Ridge may not have been so lucky. For the Forest Ridge halflings in particular, I see this line of thought developing: Life-shapers have wrought the destruction of our world through their pride and folly. War were always fought before because Life-shapers couldn't agree on what was right. Life-shaping brings war and destruction. Kill all Life-shapers and never again war with other halflings!
For those halflings whose lifestyle was destroyed by the Brown Tide, life-shapers may have been necessary for survival, but that doesn't mean that those life-shapers kept the power and respect they once had. The halflings had learned to fear what life-shaping could do, and those who wielded that power were complicit in the destruction of the world, just as wizards would be feared in later ages.
Although most of these societies of halflings ultimately had to undergo life-shaping in order to survive, becoming the Rebirth races, not all of them may have gone by choice. After all, if you saw your people slowly dying, and you knew you had the power to let them survive, would you use it, even knowing they might hate you for it? Even with the distrust and the dwindling number of willing apprentices, life-shaping may have been practiced by some of the Rebirth races early on in the Green Age. However when the budding power of Psionics provided an alternative, I think life-shaping was abandoned by all but a few hidden halfling cultures. Those who remained halflings fought off or hid themselves from the races of the Rebirth, for they had broken the taboo against life-shaping fellow halflings and had become grotesque monstrosities in their eyes.
Thus, as the seas lowered and the islands began to be connected by land bridges, and the Rebirth races warred and traded and shared their knowledge to further psionic development, did the Green Age begin.
In my campaign, I make the end of the Blue Age like Pirates of Dark Water.
There's even an evil Tide!
Your campaign?
I love that show... I wonder where I can get it...
Going back to some earlier comments in the thread. There is no real reason to assume that the Blue Age was necessarily the 1st age of Athas, but merely the 1st age that anyone in existance still remembers. Athas could just as easily be earth in the future as anything else. Perhaps the Ruhlisti did go through an industrial age before becoming learning to live in harmony with nature and learning to lifeshape creations to support their needs.
True, you could come up with as many ages as you want before the Blue Age. DarthCestual has taken that idea and run with it. But unless you've got some specific ideas that you want to play out, why? Just as there's no reason to assume that the Blue Age was Athas' 1st age (although I think the campaign setting does imply it), there's no reason to assume it wasn't either. Sooner or later you have to say "In the beginning there was nothing. And then for some reason there was something. But it doesn't really matter because there was no one there to see it. And so Athas was born, and developed until one day, there was someone to see, and know, and learn."
The default assumption is that that's the halflings. Sure, it could be Earth, with humans. That sort of makes it into a whole Planet of the Apes thing. If you think that's what your players would enjoy, go for it. But I think that if you just keep on adding age after age, it kinda dilutes the setting. People have in the past expressed the feeling that even adding the Blue Age (along with all the other changes in the revised box set) have taken the settings away from its roots. But at least it explains where all these different races came from without having to resort to each race having its own creator deity.
Why do you assume they would have to? If they discovered the principles of bio-engineering and genetics early (and even just ignoring the whole "this is fantasy" aspect), then their technological development would have taken an entirely different track than Earth (and specifically Western Europe).
Which isn't to say it couldn't have been similar, only that assuming an industrial society would have been necessary is an assumption that doesn't need to be made.
I tend to agree. I think the Rhulisti developed bioengineering early, and took a completely different & divergent path of technological development from Earth. I think they are far more in-line with the development of the Star Wars species called "Yuuzhon Vong" (and I tend to rely heavily on the Yuuzhon Vong for filling in details of my Rhulisti). I think they developed organic technology, and that mechanical technology is completely and utterly foreign to them.
Officially, psionics were the result of a psionic-bomb which reduced the gith to savagery, but birthed the capacity for psionics in all other races. This information is available (IIRC) in the Black Spine adventure.
Yup.
Going back to some earlier comments in the thread. There is no real reason to assume that the Blue Age was necessarily the 1st age of Athas, but merely the 1st age that anyone in existance still remembers. Athas could just as easily be earth in the future as anything else. Perhaps the Ruhlisti did go through an industrial age before becoming learning to live in harmony with nature and learning to lifeshape creations to support their needs.
I tend to believe that there were several ages before the Blue Age, and that the Rhulisti had quite some time to develop into the advanced civilization they became -- possibly even things like the creation of The Grey could have been something in the Rhulisti's forgotten history.
Maybe I phrased that wrong...If you were to stat up Blue Age dolphins from your campaign, would you make their water solidifying ability Extraordinary (Ex) or Supernatural (Su)?
I would say (EX) since (Su) rhymes with godlike to me.
I tend to believe that there were several ages before the Blue Age, and that the Rhulisti had quite some time to develop into the advanced civilization they became -- possibly even things like the creation of The Grey could have been something in the Rhulisti's forgotten history.
Hmm... My take on the Grey is that it was always there (It's the place where souls come from and return to, after all) but that it was originally a vast, open place where one could hazily see the material plane, and the spirits of the dead hundreds of miles distant (though actually getting close to one would be an incredibly rare occurrence). It wasn't until the vast loss of life without a following increase in new births caused by the cleansing wars that it became the way it is today. Prior to that time, I hold that the Grey couldn't support intelligent undead, so the only undead in the Green Age would have been those skeletons or zombies animated by Green Age clerics.
I think I mentioned it before, but I created this thread with the hopes that others would share their own thoughts on the subject. With that in mind, this should be my last post on my own thoughts.
Since it concerns psionics in the Blue Age, I'll bring this up again:
Officially, psionics were the result of a psionic-bomb which reduced the gith to savagery, but birthed the capacity for psionics in all other races. This information is available (IIRC) in the Black Spine adventure.
Yup.
The actual text, according to this website is:
Scholars who hear this story may wonder whether these psionic aevastators might have something to do with the development of psionics in Athas. Could the psi-waves have jarred non-psionic people and creatures, releasing deeply buried psionic talents? Could the psi-waves have wiped out the psionic parasites that usually plague psionic sensitives, thereby paving the way for the development of Psionics in many more creatures? Or is this Just a coincidence? No one knows for sure.
thus it is only a suggestion, one which I'm not inclined to take. One reason, stated before, is that I'd rather not have Athas' development rely on other campaign settings that have nothing to do with it. The other reason I have for wanting the possibility of psionics in the Blue Age has to do with the way I see its relationship with magic.
See when a mage memorizes his spells, he spends time meditating and locks verbal somatic components into his mind so that he won't accidentally for get them. When a cleric spends time praying to his deity he harmonizes his spirit with that of his patron and opens a connection that can even cross planar boundaries. Both of these rely on basic psionic principles, so it's no surprise that being a master of the Way would enable one to gain greater control of these powers, in the form of psionic enchantments. Manipulating the flow of a creatures life force through technique and will? Sounds to me like life-shaping similarly relies on a few of the principles of psionics.
Why didn't the halflings develop psionics in the Blue Age then? My guess would be that they had neither the need nor the inclination towards introspection required for it. Nature provided everything the halflings needed. Why should they look inward when everything desirable lay outward. If a halfling was not happy, he could travel the world until he found a fruit, fish, pet, friend, or island that pleased him. Until the Green Age, they had no reason to question their place in life; They were the Nature Masters. They were the only sentient race, and everything else existed for their food and pleasure. Only after the Rebirth did the halflings begin to wonder what it really meant to be a halfling, and for the Rebirth races, there was a whole new inner journey, a quest of self discovery to answer the question "What am I now?"
With the advent of psionics, life-shaping, already shunned by many tribes faded and withered away. But, if it had been used in conjunction with psionics, could it, too, produce greater results? Psionics brings into harmony the practitioner's body, mind, and soul. If clerical magic is an extension of the power of the soul, and wizardry the mind, could life-shaping be the final missing piece of the triad? Could the combination of psionics and life-shaping produce an advanced being? If I reconsider my thought that the difference between Nature Mastery and Nature Bending is purely subjective, perhaps two advanced beings? This two would be in line with what we already see, with wizardry producing dragons and avangions, and clerical magic producing elementals and spirits of the land. Could Pyreens be the advanced being for the Nature Masters? I would probably say its not since they are seen to have druidic powers, not nature mastery, but it's possible.
Could Pyreens be the advanced being for the Nature Masters? I would probably say its not since they are seen to have druidic powers, not nature mastery, but it's possible.
I guess you'll have to wait and see, huh...:P
:DAs far as the Pyreen being AB Lifeshapers, doesn't one of the printed materials state that they are a Pristine Tower Race? Or if they are a type of Nature Master AB, their druidic abilities could be seen as a refinement of Lifeshaping, following a path more harmonious with Nature, rather than bending it into something "unnatural"?
The Pyreen are thought to be the most powerful Nature Masters who underwent the change of the Rebirth. While some who changed into other races may have forgotten over time who they were and how to shape life, Pyreen, who may or may not be immortal, remember who they were, and they would retain that knowledge. Some may not, if they came later in the Green Age, but some of the original Rebirth Pyreen, or those who have kept that tradition alive, may have knowledge of life shaping, or even have life-shaped items on them, even grafts. Also, they were around during the Cleansing Wars, and have features of ALL THE REBIRTH RACES, so they could take the form of an orc or a troll or a pixie if they wanted...
Your campaign?
I love that show... I wonder where I can get it...
Pirates of Dark Water....isn't that the show where seagoing boats have those giant, insane sails? Those would look perfect for Athas.
The Pyreen are thought to be the most powerful Nature Masters who underwent the change of the Rebirth.
Not in any official texts I've read, albeit new official trends may be going this way. In any case, Raster's suggestion of making pyreens into ABs and the like is silly and overly mirror-like. Instead they appear to be what any of the other Rebirth races are: races. Whether they were actively created wit hall their characteristics, or were a random occurence, shouldn't matter when defining what they are.
Hmm... My take on the Grey is that it was always there (It's the place where souls come from and return to, after all) but that it was originally a vast, open place where one could hazily see the material plane, and the spirits of the dead hundreds of miles distant (though actually getting close to one would be an incredibly rare occurrence). It wasn't until the vast loss of life without a following increase in new births caused by the cleansing wars that it became the way it is today. Prior to that time, I hold that the Grey couldn't support intelligent undead, so the only undead in the Green Age would have been those skeletons or zombies animated by Green Age clerics.
I think I mentioned it before, but I created this thread with the hopes that others would share their own thoughts on the subject. With that in mind, this should be my last post on my own thoughts.
Aah, well, my take is that there is a long stretch of time unaccounted for in Athasian history -- the Blue Age itself is buried for the most part, but beyond it, there was time for the Rhulisti to develop culturally, and as a civilization to a relatively high technological standing. During one of these lost ages, they did something that caused what was the Astral and Ethereal planes to fuse together around Athas, producing the impenetrable bubble known as the Grey. Before the formation of the Grey, there was access to the Outer Planes, to deities within them, and Divine Power from those deities. The Rhulisti (or someone else) caused the formation of the Grey, severing the connection to the Outer Planes, cutting off part of the Plane of Shadows (which became the Black), and causing massive changes within the Athasian cosmology. I tend to think that the Positive Energy plane became infused within the Elemental planes, while the Negative Energy plane diffused and divided among the Black and Gray. The Athasian cosmos was forever altered -- cut off from the Outer Planes and deities, cut off from pretty much anything since the Transitive Planes became radically altered into the Gray (formerly the Astral and Ethereal planes) and the Black (formerly the Plane of Shadows).
Does it matter much? Not really, other than for me, it helps color/paint "what happened" to make Athas' cosmology so... different. Then again, I do have a single, relatively unknown transitive plane still open to the Outer Planes for Athas... The Plane of Mirrors, which I believe the Planar Gate relies on for its connection. But, the link is tentative at best, and that particular plane is unknown -- its existence forgotten by all save the one who made the Planar Gate.
thus it is only a suggestion, one which I'm not inclined to take. One reason, stated before, is that I'd rather not have Athas' development rely on other campaign settings that have nothing to do with it. The other reason I have for wanting the possibility of psionics in the Blue Age has to do with the way I see its relationship with magic.
Aah, see... I don't tend to use it as "Athas' development relying on other campaign settings" -- I see it as denizens of the planes that Athas is currently cut off from, figuring out how to get into Athas before... and this causing Psionics to exist on it. Being denizens of other planes, in my books, doesn't necessarily make them part of another Campaign Setting (The Githzerai/Githyanki could have existed in the Athasian cosmology outside of the Gray).
See when a mage memorizes his spells, he spends time meditating and locks verbal somatic components into his mind so that he won't accidentally for get them. When a cleric spends time praying to his deity he harmonizes his spirit with that of his patron and opens a connection that can even cross planar boundaries. Both of these rely on basic psionic principles, so it's no surprise that being a master of the Way would enable one to gain greater control of these powers, in the form of psionic enchantments. Manipulating the flow of a creatures life force through technique and will? Sounds to me like life-shaping similarly relies on a few of the principles of psionics.
Actually, I tend to rule that lifeshaping is biotechnology, ala the Yuuzhon Vong from Star Wars. It is neither psionic nor magic, it is technology -- advanced technology from an advanced species. I also do not see psionics and magic being the same... however, psionics can augment magic, sure. Arcane Magic, in particular, I see as an abberation, a distortion of the way things aught to be, created by a madman. Divine magic, I see as channeling the Positive Energy that has become saturated through the Elemental (and Paraelemental) planes. And yes, in my campaigns, good or evil, all Clerics oppose undead as an unnatural force (since all clerics are in effect champions of components of nature).
Also, they were around during the Cleansing Wars, and have features of ALL THE REBIRTH RACES, so they could take the form of an orc or a troll or a pixie if they wanted...
What does that mean, exactly? I've heard it mentioned before, but does that mean that any individual pyreen might exhibit features of any of the rebirth races (like say, large muscular body like an orc, huge troll nose, and pixie wings all on one pyreen), or that the pyreen race as a whole has traits that might be attributed to different rebirth races, though all pyreen have the same ones?
It would make the most sense to me if it's the second case, as I can explain it as "the nature masters who became the pyreen watched the other races of the rebirth for a couple hundred years, and then took what they saw as their best features for their own rebirth." Cause if each pyreen is totally different, why would they all be considered the same race?
Plus, I can follow that explanation up with "They thought that with new bodies, perfectly designed for this new world, they might once again become its masters, as they had once been. Their pride became their folly for their perfection could not be passed to their decendants without flaw. Though there was no sign of these flaws for thousands of years, like a house slowly being eaten by termites, never showing any sign of weakness till it collapsed. On that day, a pyreen child was born hideous, deformed...."
Not in any official texts I've read, albeit new official trends may be going this way. In any case, Raster's suggestion of making pyreens into ABs and the like is silly and overly mirror-like. Instead they appear to be what any of the other Rebirth races are: races.
Like I said, I'm not really fond of the idea myself, though the possibility is there. Does bring up the question though: What happens to the children of advanced beings? Does becoming an advanced being mean becoming genderless, or if we had a Sorceror King and Sorceror Queen, both full dragon, would we end up with little baby dragons? Would their children be humans?
What happens to the children of advanced beings? Does becoming an advanced being mean becoming genderless, or if we had a Sorceror King and Sorceror Queen, both full dragon, would we end up with little baby dragons? Would their children be humans?
That's an old question that I believe has been successfuly answered in the past. (What?! You haven't memorized all of the board threads yet?! :P )
In RaFoaDK, and in VA, we learn that the Champions have...mundane human children, because underneath all the celebrity and god-like glamour, they are mundane humans to the core.
That's an old question that I believe has been successfuly answered in the past. (What?! You haven't memorized all of the board threads yet?! :P )
In RaFoaDK, and in VA, we learn that the Champions have...mundane human children, because underneath all the celebrity and god-like glamour, they are mundane humans to the core.
Hey, cut me some slack. I came late to the setting and the boards, and now all those posts have gone and disappeared.
I think I like it the idea of their children being normal best. Advanced-being-hood should be linked to one's mastery of the forces associated with it. No one should get a free trip just cause their pop's the Dragon :P
What does that mean, exactly? I've heard it mentioned before, but does that mean that any individual pyreen might exhibit features of any of the rebirth races (like say, large muscular body like an orc, huge troll nose, and pixie wings all on one pyreen), or that the pyreen race as a whole has traits that might be attributed to different rebirth races, though all pyreen have the same ones?
I think it is a combination of things. First, they are a blend of the features of all of the Rebirth Races, meaning that they look like all of them and none of them. They blend them together in a mix, so that they are different, but similar.
Also, because they are natural druids, they can look like anyone, thanks to their thousand faces ability. This means that they could look like an orc if they wanted to. I can see a pyreen visiting a SK at a neutral place for a meeting taking the form of the race that SK cleansed.
I can see a pyreen visiting a SK at a neutral place for a meeting taking the form of the race that SK cleansed.
Wow, that could be pretty dangerous. It would take some major balls.
Wow, that could be pretty dangerous. It would take some major balls.
Well, they can use their Wild Shape ability to grow as big a pair as they want!!!:P