Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gawain_viii Jul 21, 2007 13:12:09	I have recently read an essay concerning the realism of D&D, esp 3.x... This essay, a great read with much thought-provoking material, can be found at http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html. After reading this article, I started to think about the difference in power levels between systems, campaigns, and genres... of course that lead to the old debate of how to convert classic D&D levels into 3.x/d20 levels. I have come up with this suggestion. 36=20, hardly a new thought--however, instead of a graduated scale that flatlines on the high end, have a linear curve. Normally, in the 36=20 method, levels 1-12 or 1-14 convert directly--leaving relative power levels basically intact, while they get crunched at the upper end, causing the Level 36 Emperor, who is normally 300% more powerful than the 12th level Duke, to be only slightly less than double the duke's power. Now, my new method is a straight 1:1.8 ratio. This way the emperor becomes 20th and the duke being 6th (2/3rds of the way to 7th at 6.6667)... Now the emperor is still 3x more powerful than the duke--difference in authority is preserved. This would make name level convert to 5th (9/1.8=5)... which is an immensely significant milestone, as the above mentioned essay demonstrates. Thoughts? Critiques? Criticisms? Roger
#2 Cthulhudrew Jul 21, 2007 14:29:04	It's an interesting essay, and one that would actually be cool to implement in one's own campaign. As a suggestion for an across the board 3E Mystara Campaign method of doing things, though, I don't think you'd be likely to get many people who would be interested. The nature of the game as it has historically been presented in the various editions would be a very tough "sacred cow" to overcome. I envision most people would be of the "are you telling me my 12th level character is only 6th level now? BS!" mindset. Another thing that struck me while reading it is that the XP progression tables would need to be looked at again (and likely modified quite a bit, perhaps to something more resembling OD&D/AD&D) or else you'd find that the PCs are far too quickly progressing beyond the bounds of mere mortals.
#3 gawain_viii Jul 21, 2007 15:14:23	Another thing that struck me while reading it is that the XP progression tables would need to be looked at again (and likely modified quite a bit, perhaps to something more resembling OD&D/AD&D) or else you'd find that the PCs are far too quickly progressing beyond the bounds of mere mortals. This is true. My own fix for that problem is two-fold. 1-Double the XP requirements for each level (2 needs 2k, 3 needs 6k, 4 needs 12k, etc) and 2-return to the old method of providing XP for both monsters defeated & treasure gained (1xp per GP value), but PCs only earn half the XP per monster that the XP table in the DMG suggests. Of course RP bonus XP still applies for exceptional RP, alignment-play, and outsmarting the enemy NPCs. However, the general environment seems to prefer quicker level progression and shorter campaigns (adventure paths. for example)--so the XP tables would be based on the group's preferences... Roger
#4 rhialto Jul 22, 2007 2:28:07	I like that essay a lot, and it highlights well one of my favourite gripes against the D&D system. Based on the numbers, normal humans as seen in the real world and Tolkein fantasy (and many other literary universes) range from 1st-5th level in D&D terms. Essentially, you starting 1st level character has 4 steps of improvement, and then he is into the once-in-a-generation levels of fame where in more literate societies, schoolkids will be studying his life story. That's not an awful lot of steps, regardless of how fast you make the xp /levelling progression. The D&D system just isn't all that granular at the realistic human levels of power. Depending on your point of view, this is either a good thing or a problem. Which side you fal into on this issue depends a lot on your campaign I think.
#5 morphail_o Jul 22, 2007 11:22:53	Normally, in the 36=20 method, levels 1-12 or 1-14 convert directly--leaving relative power levels basically intact, while they get crunched at the upper end, causing the Level 36 Emperor, who is normally 300% more powerful than the 12th level Duke, to be only slightly less than double the duke's power. Hi Roger, got two problems with this statement: What is 300% more powerful? Power is hard to quantify even in 3e numbers. Remember that in OD&D characters above name level only get a set number of hit points instead of a full HD. This is very different than in 3(.5) where HDs are more predictable. Why is an emperor more powerful than a duke? I know that many mystara products use this equation and that's probably where you are comming from. In DotE everybody is 36th level, while in Gaz1 the duke (stefan) is in the teens. However I think that if you want to create at least a slightly realistic feal to NPC power, there is no reason that emprors have much battle power. A few levels in aristocrat would be much useful to a ruler than all those epic deeds he would have to perform in order to get to 36 level fighter... Now, my new method is a straight 1:1.8 ratio. This way the emperor becomes 20th and the duke being 6th (2/3rds of the way to 7th at 6.6667)... Now the emperor is still 3x more powerful than the duke--difference in authority is preserved. This would make name level convert to 5th (9/1.8=5)... which is an immensely significant milestone, as the above mentioned essay demonstrates. Thoughts? Critiques? Criticisms? As I wrote above, I don't think one should give much thought to all those high level NPC's. Most are overpowered anyway, seems like every Alphatian in the game is going to be borderline epic even after dividing by 1.8. I think lower levels are fine the way they are (1:1), because if you convert and want to remain conssistant than the most important thing is that your character still be able to do the same stuff. I think casters are the most important, because if you take a 10 level caster and make him 5th level he will lose most of the spells he used to cast in OD&D (not that I remember spell progression tables... correct me if I am wrong). I still stick by the conversion to AD&D given in some of the Gaz's, 1:1 till 11 level, then any 2 OD&D levels equal 1 2E/3E levels. This is the way they converted in G:Kom and K:KoA (I think). This would make ultra-powerfull Ettiene d'Amberville 23ed level((35-11)/2+11), or a begining 3E "epic" character. Elminster (forgettable realms) is in his 30's so that's about right... The Master's set started at 26th level which translates to 19 level. So I suggest that anyone on the path to immortality (master's set) is an "epic" character. There are no mystaran NPC's above 25th level because you either gain immortality or die trying... So: begginer set PC's (1-3rd) are normal (close to real life) people out adventuring (and most NPC's). expert's set (used to be 4-14 level, now 4-12 level) are exceptional people, famous and poweful, warlords and kings... Compendium set (used to be 15-25, now 12-18) the most powerful heroes of legend Master set (used to be 26-36 now EPIC handbook), individual super people on quests to become true immortals. Immortals set... hmm. The demon lords in Fiendish Codex are written for non-epic campaigns and have CRs that are in the 20s. So are the archangels in BoED. I would suggest that immortals start out as 20-30 CR things, and advance from that. How far? I have no idea. What do you think?
#6 zombiegleemax Jul 25, 2007 11:35:02	I know this is somewhat off-topic, but... Personally I don't see why an emperor needs to be level 20, or be thrice as powerful as a duke. The emperor's power is measured by his political power and influence. The president of the USA doesn't need to be thrice as strong physically as a normal man to hold his functions. When my player encountered a powerful merchant who became their patron and financed their expeditions they assumed he was high level. Why should he be? People can amass influence, money and power without level. Which also gives them a good reason to hire the heroes to save the country. If the emperor is level 20, why doesn't he use a Wish spell and fix the whole mess up instead of resorting to heroes?
#7 gawain_viii Jul 25, 2007 15:04:13	I was using examples from the setting, particularly Thincol and Stefan. While I agree that there is no reason why a particularly influencial person should have to be powerful, level-wise, it is typically the case. Even using the old rules, a PC was not eligable to recieve a dominion until 9th level... so if you ran into random Baron Whats-his-face, you knew he was at LEAST 9th... In truth, I'm not even sold on my own idea... as valid an argument as it may be... I really just used that as an excuse to link the essay without being off-topic for the board :-) Spreading the message contained within the essay is my main goal. Roger
#8 havard Jul 25, 2007 18:25:56	Levels mean a bit different things in 3E than in the older editions. With NPC classes like Aristocrat or Expert levels no longer means how experienced you are at dungeon crawling. It could just as well mean that you are an experienced administrator or leader. I could still easily see some rulers having gained their position without much of a challenge being of lower level. OTOH, Mystara can be a violent place and many rulers have seen many battles before securing their positions. Others again are powerful spellcasters. BTW: Should the Coucil of 1000 Wizards be renamed the Council of 1000 Epic Wizards? ;) Havard
#9 zendrolion Jul 27, 2007 10:22:13	I know this is somewhat off-topic, but... Personally I don't see why an emperor needs to be level 20, or be thrice as powerful as a duke. The emperor's power is measured by his political power and influence. The president of the USA doesn't need to be thrice as strong physically as a normal man to hold his functions. Well, that's true bleakcabal. But Thincol isn't just AN emperor. That'd be rather Adronius, the 4th level Milenian emperor. Thincol was a great warrior and hero before sitting on the Thyatian throne; he was probably an adventurer in Oceansend, then a gladiator and after that the most famous gladiator in Thyatis City (i.e. probably the greatest gladiator in the world); he led the Thyatians' counterattack against Alphatian Spike Assault and likely fought alongside the Thyatian armies in campaigning against Alphatians on the Isle of Dawn. And again after taking the crown he partecipated in the treacherous and deadly net of Thyatian politics. So he isn't just a generic emperor, he's an emperor-hero that'd be remembered for generations (someone better than Constantin the Great, just to mention one emperor that was soldier befor rising to the purple). From OD&D's point of view, I see more nonsense in making Eriadna 36th level that making Thincol 36th level... End of the OT... ;) About the article gawain_viii pointed out, that's a very interesting way to re-read the whole D&D level-demographics. The world seems a lot more realistic if the 1,000 Wizards' Council is made up of 5th level wizards... Then we've to explain just HOW they could create all those death wands for their marines... Anyway, back on the "5th level = the top" issue, a problem I'd see in a campaign taking into account what the article says is the rathen slow progression. I mean that for a PC, if the time he used to rise from 1st to 20th level was now the same he used to rise from 1st to 5th, advancements would be gained more rarely. From a player's point of view, the play could get a little more boring, becouse PCs'd be the same most of the time - without frequent improvements in skill ranks, feats, spells and special features.
#10 morphail_o Jul 28, 2007 14:03:13	A bit more OT (I know you said end of OT, Zendrolion, but we have to bit Greyhewk somehow.... ;) ) Did anyone do a 3e Thincol? He is quite a complex guy and I would think he multiclassed a lot. I know there are two Thyatian Gladiator prestige class one made by Eldersphinx anbd the other made by Byron Molix. Both work great with the gladiaor ideas on Complete Warrior. So I say Barbarian5/Thyatian Gladiator10/Aristocrat5 is a start. There are also nice prestige classes that would work in Complete Warrior, I like Reaping Mauler myself.