Cheers,
Cam
Now I know their probably not as commonplace in DL as say FR but wouldnt the tradition of elven fighter/mages fall into that category. Are they viewed as laughing stocks?
No, not so much. I think most of them, however, are low-level mages; they've got the training and skill of a dabbler or apprentice, just enough to make use of a few 1st and 2nd level spells, but they never take the Test and focus on something else. Gilthanas was just such a mage early on, and it wasn't until much later - after the War of the Lance - that he decided to devote more attention to the arcane arts. Serinda of House Mariner, a character from the original modules, is another example.
Cheers,
Cam
And in the Dragons of autumn rolplaybook he is described as a elf noble/wizard/fighter and not a member WoHS.
So I think he never take the test.
I always was convinced that he was a sorcerer and I think he became a sorcerer from the moment sorcery was discovered on Krynn.
Did Glithanas ever take the Test or did he just wait until sorcery was discovered to continue his magical training?
Gilthanas took the Test after the War of the Lance, although mainly just to appease the Orders (he was governor of Kalaman and a high profile Hero of the Lance). He became a sorcerer during the Age of Mortals and even when the gods returned he didn't switch back, although he was a little busy.
Cheers,
Cam
Wizards of High Sorcery were not allowed to use any weapons other than daggers and staves in the original novels and game materials. It was considered to be rather a significant event when Takhisis started allowing her Grey Robes to run around with swords (amongst other perks).
But if you're playing a 5th Age campaign I think there's reason for latitude. The gods of magic, like all the gods in general, are being a bit less rigid than in previous eras.
However, it's worth noting that the Test might not be kind to those who are too fond of their non-wizardly skills, like the way Justarius was made lame due to his pride in his athletic ability.
Ironically, the Knight of Takhisis, despite being founded by a goddess, have spawned the primary secular organizations of the Fifth Age: the Knights of Neraka and the Legion of Steel. These groups are likely to have the highest concentration of sorcerors (including multi-classed ones). But none of them will be WoHS.
The Towers of High Sorcery book does provide a number of very interesting PrC's, and there are a few scattered throughout the other books. So I don't think that WoHS are going to be stuck with few options for novel variations on their professions.
It's also worth noting that there's plenty of reason to justify WoHS who picked up other class skills during the time when the gods were absent. Fighter and rogue classes in particular were probably common for those that weren't sorcerors during the early Fifth Age.
But as Cam_Banks pointed out, any PrC that allows the WoHS to continue to advance their spell progression appears to be acceptable. As for other classes, my judgement call has been that it is okay for a WoHS to retain and use class features from previous non-wizard classes, except for cleric, mystic or sorceror. However, once they've taken a level of the WoHS PrC, then all subsequent experience must be applied to some class that advances their wizard spell progression.
While the Istaran church had reached the apex of it's political and military power, it's magical power was steadily declining as the gods of light began to withold spells from clerics who had ceased to serve the cause of Good.
Consider, the WoHS could have broken the backs of both the Istaran and Solamnic nations if they had been willing to blow up the Towers at Istar and Palanthus the way they did Daltigoth and Qim Sudri. That would have virtually levelled both cities and quite possibly crippled the two nations. If they had managed to off the Kingpriest it might have even averted the Cataclysm.
But the wizards weren't inclined to get into that kind of a war of attrition and that colored even their defense of their own towers, much less their willingness to go into open war across Ansalon.
But all of that aside, I do think that Eldritch Knights and Spellswords probably wouldn't have fit into the earlier ages of history. However, it's a new age now and the Orders aren't as entrenched in their ways as in ages past, and many rising WoHS are younger and have no deep connection to the old ways of doing things. Coryn of the White Robes in particular may be open to practices that more traditional wizards would have considered out of the question.
Since some WoHS may have had non-spellcasting classes during the early Fifth Age, the mindset may be open to things like more militant wizards. So while these PrC's may not fit in historical campaigns set in earlier ages, they may be relevant in modern Ansalon.
War Mage grants the spellcaster the ability to cast spells easier in armor. Something that the WoHS are not supposed to wear, so this lends to the idea that the orders are at least receptive to the idea of other classes or at least the idea of non-magical reliant defense.
Dark Dwarf Savant and Spell Broker grant the skill “Use Magic Device” as a class skill. If WoHS can use any item that the Sorcerer can use because they share the same arcane abilities (for the most part), why would these two classes need the ability to use magical items useable by other spellcasters of a magic other then arcane?
Renegade Hunter requires that the hunter have 5 ranks in Gather Information, Sense Motive, and Search as well as Track and Improved Counterspell. Now while the Hunter must be able to cast 4th level spells, this puts the hunter at 9th level making it possible that the hunter could do this as a straight line wizard. It is a little easier however if the character has one or more levels of Ranger.
Sea Mage is a little harder to explain. The class requires Balance 4 ranks, Profession (sailor) 8, Swim 4 ranks, Base Reflex save +3, and the ability to cast 3rd-level spells. Now a 5th level Wizard can certainly cast 3rd level spells, and can acquire 4 ranks in Balance and Swim but cannot achieve the Base Reflex save +3, in fact a wizard must wait until 9th level to achieve this base save. Now while the wizard will eventually reach this level it suggests that the save may come from other class in order become the Sea Mage.
Next I looked at some of the NPCs described in the sourcebooks: Merithin, Lorac, Kyrik Es-Thakran, and Palin Majere
Merithin is described as the Master of the Daltigoth tower in the Legends of the Twins source book. Now this character is from an alternate timeline but I think it is important to note that she is a master of a tower and has levels in the Rogue class. CE Female half-elf rogue 3/wizard (evoker) 4/WoHS (black) 5/arcane trickster 2/master of the tower. Now it is possible that the rogue levels were ignored because they may have been gained prior to becoming a wizard.
Lorac, as we all know is the leader of the Silvanesti elves, and is another character from the same timeline as Merithin. Lorac has levels in Noble and just as Merithin these levels may have been gained prior to becoming a wizard. They may also have been allowed due to the fact that he was in line for the throne of Silvanost. He also has Noble levels in the War of the Lance sourcebook.
Kyik Es-Thakran is a character from an alternate timeline and has the Mariner class, and continues to be a pirate on the blood sea after becoming a wizard. Now it describes him as paying homage to Lunitari and the other gods of magic but does not clarify if he has taken the test or not.
Palin Majere has a level of Master Diplomat and is the master of a tower in an alternate timeline.
Now all of these versions of these characters (with the exception of Lorac), so how much value should be put into these characters I am unsure of. I do think it is important that the NPCs do come from a timeline where the orders of magic are the ruling government in this timeline.
What all this indicates is subjective to anyone’s interpretation and their point of view, but I do believe it does tell us one thing about the Orders of Magic, we don’t know everything about the orders or their rules.
Not being able to use armor as WOHS still carries over for warmages.
Wizards don't wear armor because they're not proficient in it and it interferes with spellcasting. If a Wizard of High Sorcery chooses to wear armor, the Conclave is probably not going to care. Some wizards may look down upon the armor-wearing mage as a faithless brute, somebody who doesn't trust in his own magic to defend him, but he won't be branded a renegade and kicked out.
Ariakas is but one example of a wizard who wore armor in his career. There are many others. Most wizards wouldn't, but exceptions exist.
Cheers,
Cam
There is a spellcasting penalty to casting when armored but that is not a universal absolute. For example the Knights of the Thorn have managed to develop the knack for reducing the penalty. The leader of the White Robes Coryn is known to be proficient with a bow.
Some of the PrC's in Towers of High Sorcery also reference the possibility of other class options. Of particular note the Renegade Hunter says that some may have backgrounds as fighters, rangers or rogues.
So I don't think that there's an obstacle to WoHS with previous non-spellcasting classes using those talents. They're just expected to apply their focus (experience) on classes that improve their spellcasting ability once they become WoHS.
In practice it could be any number of reasons. But looking back over my checkered history in D&D the most common application is for spellcasters who frequently find themselves in melee scenarios where they cannot be assured of being able to get a spell off before being subject to attack. Casting Time is the bane of many a mage and in certain situtations, your risk of being hit by an arrow because you've got a lousy armor class can be a larger problem than anything else.
Now typically wizards prefer to rely on defensive magic such as mage armor, shield and other defensive spells, or else protective magical items. But defensive spells could theoretically be dispelled and not everyone owns a pair of bracers of armor (which were, as bracers of defense, by far amongst the most prized items for multi-class spellcasters all the way back to 1E).
The Thorn Knights learned the trick of armored spellcasting precisely because they were battlefield mages and very likely to face physical attack. It probably also gave the Thorn Knights an edge in combat with WoHS because they could use spells like dispel magic and antimagic field to negate the magical defense/offense of the WoHS and then just skewer them on the points of their swords.
This, by the way, is the answer to the ages-old question of why wizards would even want a spell like antimagic field, which by defintion renders them powerless when they cast it.
So there is some utility to having some combat skills and profieciency with armor and weapons, especially for PrC's like the Thorn Knight and Spellsword that have armored spellcasting class features..
In game terms however, why would you even take a chance, as small as it is, that your spells cannot be cast?
Not all spells have somatic components, which nicely avoids the problem. Other than that, many wizards who wear armor have decided that the chance of spell failure is worth the additional protection. Considering that they can gain a much higher AC from wearing magical armor than they could with a spell (and it won't take up a needed spell slot), the appeal is certainly there.
Gilthanas has been doing this for years.
Cheers,
Cam
Did Gilthanas have elven chain?
Again, the Thorn Knights (as an example) were structured as battlefield wizards. In a typical battlefield there are issues not just with opponents attacking from adjacent squares, but with opponents attacking with missiles or weapons like spears. A traditional WoHS would prefer to harden themselves with defensive spells to protect themselves or to remain as sheltered as possible behind fighter types.
But as I mentioned before, some strategic opportunities arise in situations where magic is hindered. Thorn Knights relying on defensive abjurations like antimagic field and dispel magic could effectively neutralize the magical abilities of their opponents, and possibly themselves as well. Now, two wizards within the confines of an antimagic field are generally stuck either having a knife fight or running (if possible). But the ability to switch from spell combat to physical can be an advantage here. An armored Thorn Knight with a sword has a decided advantage over a WoHS in robes with a dagger in this scenario.
Plus of course there is always the question of melee with mixed partners. For example, a WoHS using mage armor, shield and/or protection from arrows might consider themself safe enough from a Thorn Knight's non-magical colleagues to engage in a magical battle. But a tactical use of dispel magic could drop their magical defense and open them up to becoming an archery target.
I would wager that this kind of tactical counter-magic combined with weapon usage played a heavy role in the heavy losses the WoHS suffered when they laid seige to the Grey Robes before the Chaos War.
Now obviously one can find ways to apply feats, equipment and spells to counter many situations, but there are always going to be exceptions that provide openings. This is exactly why some people multi-class rather than just pour everything into one class, and why some PrC's develop skills outside the normal class silos.
You're forgetting missile attacks and reach weapons, which a 5 foot step may be insufficient to avoid certain attacks. Don't forget that a fight isn't always one-on-one either.
Again, the Thorn Knights (as an example) were structured as battlefield wizards. In a typical battlefield there are issues not just with opponents attacking from adjacent squares, but with opponents attacking with missiles or weapons like spears. A traditional WoHS would prefer to harden themselves with defensive spells to protect themselves or to remain as sheltered as possible behind fighter types.
But as I mentioned before, some strategic opportunities arise in situations where magic is hindered. Thorn Knights relying on defensive abjurations like antimagic field and dispel magic could effectively neutralize the magical abilities of their opponents, and possibly themselves as well. Now, two wizards within the confines of an antimagic field are generally stuck either having a knife fight or running (if possible). But the ability to switch from spell combat to physical can be an advantage here. An armored Thorn Knight with a sword has a decided advantage over a WoHS in robes with a dagger in this scenario.
Plus of course there is always the question of melee with mixed partners. For example, a WoHS using mage armor, shield and/or protection from arrows might consider themself safe enough from a Thorn Knight's non-magical colleagues to engage in a magical battle. But a tactical use of dispel magic could drop their magical defense and open them up to becoming an archery target.
I would wager that this kind of tactical counter-magic combined with weapon usage played a heavy role in the heavy losses the WoHS suffered when they laid seige to the Grey Robes before the Chaos War.
Now obviously one can find ways to apply feats, equipment and spells to counter many situations, but there are always going to be exceptions that provide openings. This is exactly why some people multi-class rather than just pour everything into one class, and why some PrC's develop skills outside the normal class silos.
Yes you are correct that missile attacks could disrupt but these must be used as readied attacks in order to disrupt the spellcasting and with most reach weapons if the mage takes a 5-foot step towards the opponent the reach weapon prevents attacks within the reach area so the wizard could remain right next to the opponent and not worry about AoO from the opponent. So the only real threat of attack for disruption of spellcasting is ranged weapons as the reach and melee weapon attacks could easily be avoided with the 5-foot step option. Now of course if there are multiple opponents within range of the wizard then yeah he might be in trouble.
Now I am not saying that armor is not a good-idea, because personally I almost never play a strictly spell-casting character, I always multi-class with other classes.
Now, in an ideal world, a traditional wizard would like to be at a safe distance from opponents who are non-magical which they can bombard with impunity. In actuality, they're not always so lucky. WoHS, being traditional, usually tried to offset this problem by avoiding melee.
Thorn Knights, however, don't worship magic the way WoHS do. To them it's a tool, not an ideology. So they didn't feel the least bit guilty ignoring outdated rules restricting the kinds of weapons and armor they used, not when there goddess was breaking so many rules on their behalf anyway.
Of course, the Amored Spellcasting class feature helps a lot. With this the penalties of wearing armor can be reduced or even eliminated for lighter armor. Their fighting prowess can give them considerable advantage in many melee situations.
Now, whether the WoHS will cling to their old restrictions is an open question. The campaign materials say the no armor/dagger-staff rule is optional. Given Coryn's affinity for the bow (and her less rigid personality) it's highly unlikely that enforcement of such old traditions will be upheld at least in her Order. Jenna and Dalamar are open questions. But I suspect that given the urgency of expanding the ranks of the WoHS nowadays that dithering over the presence of wizards with an interest in other weapons.
Plus I think that a Spellsword would impress even the Solamnic Knights.
Originally posted by Psionycx
But I suspect that given the urgency of expanding the ranks of the WoHS nowadays that dithering over the presence of wizards with an interest in other weapons.
I do personally agree with you on that point Psionycx in that the WoHS have a decision to make about their current restrictions. Back in the day they were the only arcane magical organization and the Holy Orders stayed out of the affairs of the gods of magic. Now however, as has been stated before, they are no longer the big kid on the block and the orders have to content with the Thorn Knights and the Legion. Not to mention the fact that there are many more indepent sorcerers and renegades than there ever have been. The minotaurs have an entire clan that delves into the ways of the arcane arts and the ogre-titans are certainly interested magic and are again supported by the ogre government, seeing as how they pretty much run the ogre nation.
As far as the Knights of Solamnia being impressed with a spellsword I am not so sure. The knights has traditionally distrusted magic and even now are still doubtful of the use of magic. The knights are not exactly the quickest to pick-up on something new. I mean the good dragons helped win the War of the Lance and even fought in the Chaos war, but some knights still do not trust dragons of any color. The kingfishers are not even treated as full knights but more like unwanted step-children.
Dalamar is older and has delved into some murky areas during the absence of the gods. But he seems to be on good behavior now. He is the one most likely to oppose. However, some of the Black Robes may disagree with him.
Coryn is the least likely to oppose this kind of change. She's embraced High Sorcery but she's a bit of a maverick. She's also into archery.
One question is how the emerging fragmentation of the Orders will affect this. As they start switching from all being cooped up in Wayreth together to having Towers for each Order, we may start to see greater divergence of positions regarding the behaviors of mages.
Regardless, melee combat skills are never going to be the mainstay of any wizards' repertoire. The Thorn Knights never tried to be front line soldiers. But rather they used their greater melee capabilities to supplement their magic in situations where spellcasting was difficult. I don't think they ever sought out one-on-one sword fights with Solamnic Knights. But again, having a sword and wearing armor can be useful in close quarters combat where it's hard to cast spells, especially if you've got a PrC that provides an offset to the spell failure penalty for armored casting.
ToHS: - Dreamshaper, Spell Broker,
Complete Arcane: - Argent Savant, Elemental Savant, Fatespinner, Geometer, Initiate of teh Sevenfold Veil, Mindbender,
Complete Divine: - Oracle.
At least these are the ones that I see the WoHS using as a majority.
If the title or skill prereqs give you pause, you could always change them to be more inline with how you see the class. I see the class as more of the blind oracle or fortune teller that is the classic icon. I mean even strahd had his oracle locked up in the basement (that is who I remember when I see this class).
A whte robe ORC.
Huh...
