If it were to come back, I'd be among the first to reserve advance copies of all products related to the setting. - High Priest Mikhal
Bring back Ravenloft, but make it good. Put the same amount of thought and financial backing that you've given to Forgotten Realms and Eberron. Respect the authors' choices to make decisions based on the campaign setting's flavor, rather than necessarily what will sell best. (E.g. Strahd as Bela Lugosi vampire, not Brad Pitt "Interview" style vampire.)
And then I'd reserve the first book that came out and once I got it, I would read it and reserve judgment.
So far, the fans are doing excellent fanwork with the setting as it is and releasing that stuff for free. That's much better than Wizards slapping a "no fan material" sign across it and then making it low quality. We've seen Wizards can do great stuff if they put their full corporate muscle behind something, and Ravenloft (if resurrected) would deserve no less.
But yes, I DwarfPcfan, sign this petition!
Respect the authors' choices to make decisions based on the campaign setting's flavor, rather than necessarily what will sell best.
And f*** copyrights and licenses and what not if the product is good!
Uhhh....you can't. If they can't get permission to use something (say, Lord Soth) then they can't use it, plain and simple. It's illegal to just use something that has a copyright, it doesn't matter that the fans want it used.
Anyway, I'd like to see some new Ravenloft stuff! This time it would be good to see a writeup on each domain they tell you about and it's lord (actual stats for each of them would be nice this time around).
Uhhh....you can't. If they can't get permission to use something (say, Lord Soth) then they can't use it, plain and simple. It's illegal to just use something that has a copyright, it doesn't matter that the fans want it used.
That's not quite what I had in mind. I meant to agree with HuManBing on letting the fans release material for free and not slapping a ban on anything not rubber stamped by the powers-that-be. It's not official, it's non-profit, and it will likely never touch anyone's lives at Wizards, so who cares? Also, stop bickering over who has the copyright to what characters and domains and just fix the problem. If that means losing a character or domains because someone doesn't want them in RL anymore, so be it. Fans will include them if they want to no matter what.
That's not quite what I had in mind. I meant to agree with HuManBing on letting the fans release material for free and not slapping a ban on anything not rubber stamped by the powers-that-be. It's not official, it's non-profit, and it will likely never touch anyone's lives at Wizards, so who cares? Also, stop bickering over who has the copyright to what characters and domains and just fix the problem. If that means losing a character or domains because someone doesn't want them in RL anymore, so be it. Fans will include them if they want to no matter what.
Or use the Corporate Service Bat on them:D
I would love to see Ravenloft, but lets face it, how many people would actually be interested in this time of D&D? WotC seems to be focusing much of their attention on a younger audience as of late (I mean, look at Eberron), and Ravenloft was always a much more 'mature' setting.
That's not quite what I had in mind. I meant to agree with HuManBing on letting the fans release material for free and not slapping a ban on anything not rubber stamped by the powers-that-be. It's not official, it's non-profit, and it will likely never touch anyone's lives at Wizards, so who cares? Also, stop bickering over who has the copyright to what characters and domains and just fix the problem. If that means losing a character or domains because someone doesn't want them in RL anymore, so be it. Fans will include them if they want to no matter what.
I don't know in which D&D universe you live
but what you say doesn't make sense. They are already living well with fan made stuff - see netbooks at the FoS or the Kargatane - and we all thank them, so what more do you want? To print fan made stuff and sell it? Err, no.Sure, we as fan will do what we want with our campaigns. No need to claim this from WotC.
Not mass-market appeal products that deviate from the canon just for a profit
So you want them to sacrifice profit for canon? While I sign your petition to bring back Ravenloft as a setting, you have to be realistic. Mass-market appeal will bring new fans to the setting, and new fans means more books in the future.
Canon, sure, we all want it. Elf pirate Strahd, nope.
However, don't ask them to stay in a small niche market, that isn't where they are going. They want to make money, and that isn't a bad thing in itself. Otherwise, no D&D at all.
Joël
I would love to see Ravenloft, but lets face it, how many people would actually be interested in this time of D&D? WotC seems to be focusing much of their attention on a younger audience as of late (I mean, look at Eberron), and Ravenloft was always a much more 'mature' setting.
Too true. I guess those of us over the age of 20 have been left behind.
(E.g. Strahd as Bela Lugosi vampire, not Brad Pitt "Interview" style vampire.)
Strahd always struck me as more Christopher Lee-like....
/old timer rant ended (caturday)
/Props to J. Mangrum
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=875750
Had TSR focused on the 'loft (and maybe dark sun) more then FR and Greyhawk, DnD would be a very different game today.
I hear you. Dark Sun and Ravenloft were the most inspired realms of their day and still hold a special place in my heart. I just love how everything was done. Unfortunately our play group was too disorganized and never properly played much of either.
I've got the SSI games for both, and the novels. Both were a delight to experience and I'd love to see a resurgence.
Till then, I'll just play the Neverwinter Nights version of Ravenloft. Prisoners of the Mists: www.nwnravenloft.com.
Also, I would like to see material of Arthaus's Ravenloft used, which WotC can do because of the OGL, but I don't know how many people would like it done in this way.
It's lucky that we, the Ravenloft fans, have had zero support from Wizards all this time. If nothing else, it means the transition to 4th edition will be easier to ignore.
I don't know in which D&D universe you live
Sure, we as fan will do what we want with our campaigns. No need to claim this from WotC.
But the netbooks are still very timid about statting up official NPCs etc. Perhaps that's what he meant.
But remeber, it is NOT an officiail Wizards announcement I heard.
(Edit: Ok, nvm the 4ed part, I just saw the announcement on D&D main page ^^')
But the netbooks are still very timid about statting up official NPCs etc. Perhaps that's what he meant.
Folks really shouldn't be. There's this thing called "artistic license." You can go off in a different direction than the official creators so long as it's free domain. Did the Kargatane fret if their Books of S____ violated the canon? I can't say, but I doubt it. It's freedom of speech from fans of the material; we chose what we wanted and didn't want from the canon and the fan stuff and we were glad to have the variety. As to whether or not the fans are the ones causing a stink, remember that it's a game. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you have constructive criticism, be civil about it. Otherwise, STFU.
I'll believe Ravenloft is being revived in 4e when someone shows me hard evidence. Until then I'm not getting my hopes up. If it is, I'll pre-order every RL product ever produced for 4e right here and now (money is all the execs care about, so I'll play their little game if I get what I want).:raincloud
If you don't like it, don't use it. If you have constructive criticism, be civil about it. Otherwise, STFU.
Best. Line. EVER.
You are clearly passionate, like the rest of us Ravenloft fans. Whether this will necessarily translate into persuasiveness remains to be seen.
I don't know in which D&D universe you live
Hm. is Kargatane dont died 3-4 years ago ?
ps. Oh it's still have catalogue and netbooks, btw dont anybody know were i may look for pictures from old Kargatane ? I really want back one of them (= (dark queen, or something similary, from gallery)
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.kargatane.com
You may need to search through various dates to find one that has the Gallery pictures that you remembered.
http://web.archive.org/web/20030823055648/kargatane.com/sotk/gallery/herrera.html
as you can see page miss one picture "The Black Queen" and this is one i looked for ))))=
ps. maybe someone have it? Picture is Black&White pencil drawing, on it almost naked women (with wings? i dont remember)= ) come downstairs.
Did the Kargatane fret if their Books of S____ violated the canon? I can't say, but I doubt it.
We avoided direct conflicts, for the record. In fact, I think part of our success in those days is that we actively strove to maintain a friendly rapport with the Kargat (the TSR Ravenloft design team) and support their material; thus the name we appropriated for our group.
As it is, we received the Kargat's wink-and-a-nod blessing, so we went ahead with the Secrets of the Kargatane website. But from beginning to end, we knew we were operating in the murky waters of shared copyright law. And, indeed, a major component of what ultimately stopped us from producing netbooks was that the powers-that-be -- at that point, Arthaus -- explicitly told us not to release anything but adventures.
So here's my take: If you, as fans, want to start statting up and releasing updates on Ravenloft material, go ahead. But if WotC comes to you with a cease-and-desist, don't be surprised, and understand that you have no room to gripe. You're playing with their ball in their backyard.
In the begining of a game I can see the need for detailed info about the world and stats, but once they game takes off all bets are off. There is a lot of published material out there both offical and net books, so I can't imagine why anyone could ever say RL is dead. Since apparently there is a designer or two milling around on these posts, I'm sure they would be more than happy to give insight on those burning questions you might have about where the time line was left off and where it is going next. Lets hope they put some new stuff out, but until then there is a lot of room for creative thought you will just have to do yourself.
So any fan material could be shut down with no legal recourse for the fans at any given time if the copyrights holder(s) want to get uppity? Suddenly I'm not so eager to continue my work on Masque of the Red Death 1998. If all I'll get for trying to show my support is a lawsuit, then why should I bother?
That's a question you'll have to answer for yourself. Here's another to ponder: If you come home to find a stranger watching your TV in your living room, and you ask him to leave, would you consider him justified in getting "uppity" and refusing to go?
There's a perfect solution to avoiding the problem of "uppity" rights owners, of course (particularly when you, as seems to be the case, have no interest in learning the fundamental realities of copyrights): Don't Trespass. Create your own stuff.
His first act is to dissolve Itchy and Scratchy and to buy himself something frivolous with the money. (I think it was a chocolate palace but I can't remember for sure.)
Of course, this analogy has the same flaws that Mangrum's does. My analogy fails because Wizards has always held the copyright, they just chose not to do much with it. Mangrum's analogy has the weakness that the hypothetical guy coming home presumes that he hasn't been on a lengthy hiatus from home. (To be completely pedantic, many property laws will respect at least a partial right of a squatter if the original owner has been away for a very long time and has not ejected them. See adverse possession.)
The best analogy I've read is JWM's earlier one about us playing in Wizards' back yard with their ball. I think Tim Zahn also made a similar analogy about Star Wars and George Lucas - it's like kids are playing in Lucas' driveway with Lucas' toys, and at any time Lucas reserves the right to reverse out of his driveway, crushing the toys others have crafted together.
That having been said, DnD has always been about what you yourself can create with the tools and game system they provide. That's been the case since First Edition. I think legally they're within their rights to insist you cease and desist, and that goes especially if you do things that are truly disruptive (like statting up official stats verbatim from sources that they would otherwise receive payment for in book sales). But at the same time, Fraternity and Kargatane have co-existed very peacefully even during times when Wizards or TSR did hold full rights to the genre. I think Wizards appreciates that those sites do not impinge on their copyright in destructive ways, and it provides a strong fanbase which is very constructive. (I bought into the whole Third edition core rulebooks of DnD purely because of the strong support on Fraternity and Kargatane.)
The fallout from shutting down reasonable sites like Fraternity would be far greater than any benefit, and I don't think a rational Wizards policy would do so. For another (slightly imperfect) analogy, consider that merchants, banks, and service providers are well within their rights to suddenly refuse to accept credit or checks and insist on cash. Or even to go one step further and even refuse the U.S. legal tender and insist on barter instead. That's perfectly fine, and from a certain viewpoint it's a little more reliable than relying on abstractions. But there are obvious drawbacks to doing so, including losing the majority of your business.
It's a balancing act all the way, and I think for the time being Fraternity is keeping itself very much on the right side of it.
From 1990 to 2000 they churned out novels and sourcebooks on nearly a monthly basis.
They then nearly immediately licensed the setting to Arthaus, who published sourcebooks from 2001-2005.
Last year, they published the megamodule Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and reprinted several novels.
This year, they've announced a new line of novels and continued releasing reprints.
In the coming years, we already know they have plans to bring Ravenloft "from the vault" (along with other settings) in some limited fashion.
Not even including Dragon Magazine or the inclusion of RL-originating monsters in several creature collections, Ravenloft hasn't gone without published support for a single year since the setting was introduced.
Go tell the fans of Dark Sun or Spelljammer that WotC hasn't done much with Ravenloft and get back to me with their reaction.
Chose not to do much with it?
From 1990 to 2000 they churned out novels and sourcebooks on nearly a monthly basis.
TSR did, sure. Not at this early point Wizards.
They then nearly immediately licensed the setting to Arthaus, who published sourcebooks from 2001-2005.
Right, so Arthaus "did much with it". Again, not at this point Wizards.
Last year, they published the megamodule Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and reprinted several novels.
EtCR is a perfectly valid point - that is entirely Wizards' baby. The reprints are just that - reprints. Props to Wizards for even doing that much, but it's still not much at all compared to the sort of support TSR gave it.
But either way this bickering is academic. If you read the contextual sentence I wrote, it starts off "my analogy fails because [...] Wizards chose not to do much with it".
I should probably be flattered because in a certain light, Mangrum's critique of the phrasing serves to reinforce the argument that my analogy doesn't fail. :D
So evidently Mr. Mangrum also leaps to the defense of the honor of Ravenloft fans, and not just Ravenloft authors. ;)
So evidently Mr. Mangrum also leaps to the defense of the honor of Ravenloft fans, and not just Ravenloft authors. ;)
Low blow 'Bing, low blow... lol.
I think the point is that after a certain point, Wizards (or whoever owns it) should either pass on the copyright torch or drop it. It's not making them any money (and the novels don't count...) so why, in all honesty, would they care. Obviously they think it's a lost cause, so why not just sell the ownership cheeply to someone who would actually use it?
Oh, and supposedly (atleast I heard), Sword and Sorcery still owns the rights to it? Is that true? Anyone?
Oh, and supposedly (atleast I heard), Sword and Sorcery still owns the rights to it? Is that true? Anyone?
No, S&S never owned rights on Ravenloft, they paid a licensing fee to WotC be able to legally print & sell items in the Ravenloft Setting, and one year ago returned that license.
http://www.white-wolf.com/ravenloft/index.php?articleid=276
So evidently Mr. Mangrum also leaps to the defense of the honor of Ravenloft fans, and not just Ravenloft authors. ;)
You think you're being rude, but of course you're talking about someone who spent years fighting a Pyrrhic battle with the developers to stop them from sticking you with Ravenloft books filled with gibberish in place of game material, right up to the point where there was nothing left for me to do but demand my credits be removed rather than lend my name to what I considered shoddy goods.
So you're welcome.
You think you're being rude, but of course you're talking about someone who spent years fighting a Pyrrhic battle with the developers to stop them from sticking you with Ravenloft books filled with gibberish in place of game material, right up to the point where there was nothing left for me to do but demand my credits be removed rather than lend my name to what I considered shoddy goods.
So you're welcome.
I actually had no intent to be rude in my post, and I'm sorry that you (and another poster) got that impression. To clarify, I meant that as a compliment, back-handed though it was. Of course, you exercise your own judgment in whether or not to believe me when I say I respect you, but I'm speaking as somebody who has had a decent number of years of experience as a journalist and professional writer too, and thus I fully understand the professional importance of a writer who will step up to the plate to defend his peers and colleagues. Your posts in other threads have shown you are quick to do this, and that's not a bad thing at all.
With regards to your contributions to Ravenloft quality, I think that goes without saying. I still think Carnival is one of the best Ravenloft 2nd ed. books ever written, and I have nothing but admiration for your Ravenloft Timeline (and most Ravenloft fan writers sympathize with your own disclaimer that it was a labor of love taken to truly exhausting proportions). The Gazetteers still rank as my favorite Third Ed books anywhere, any setting, and I fully recognize your part in delivering those goods. Even Death Undaunted is a wonderful read, unpublished though it is, and without your contributions to this online community, we clearly wouldn't have that. (Vide this thread for an example of how I spread the word of Undaunted and also for an unedited but apparently spontaneous display of gratitude to Mr. Mangrum's generosity.
)My point is this, and I don't know if there's a diplomatic way of saying it - there's no question that you're a very talented writer, but your posts on the message boards have a certain confrontational quality to them that other TSR/WotC authors' posts don't have. If I raise a few quibbles here and there (as in this thread, where we discussed Har'akiri vs. Akiri) please take it in the spirit it was offered:
As a reader who intends to give back a little of what you've given, both in terms of respect for your writing, and in terms of a little verbal swordplay for your colorful posts.
Heck, I'd be the first to post in a thread entitled "Bring Back Mangrum"...
I had been lead to believe that when approached concerning the licenses for Ravenloft, Dragonlance, and others that wizards refused to extend the licenses any further, because they were already preparing for the release of 4.0 edition and didn't want to compete against their more popular lines. Was that not the case?
It was confirmed that the license for Ravenloft simply expired and wasn't renewed (for unknown reasons). If this is true, this goes a long way towards explaining why such a popular setting was never picked back up by Wizards.
I find it very odd that after they fought so hard to make sure that Art Haus didn't get to renew the license,
In what way did WotC "fight hard" to make sure Arthaus couldn't renew the license?
WotC made the justified call that they were losing more money than they wanted to 3rd party books and they weren't going to support it unless they were making enough to justify the loss.
As for netbooks they fall under the same grey internet area as fanfilms. LucasArts tolerates the many Star Wars films made as long as no one turns a profit. Even then they're leery and have been burned in the past. And I can't imagine Disney being forgiving if a bunch of fans decided to continue a favorite show or movie online. I can't imagine Marvel or DC being happy if someone made online comics using Spidey or Superman (heck, they shut down fanfiction continually).
Netbooks are the same. We're using the names owned by WotC. They own the use of "VanRichten" as a monster hunter. They own "Ravenloft".
WotC has been forgiving and generous to a fault. The Fraternity has flaunted their existence in WotC's face and is obviously so well noticed that a member was quoted on a book jacket. Any other company would have bombarded the site with legal notices (heck, I don't even think the OGL is prominent anywhere) but so far nada.
What's the whole deal with DnD, as distinct from, say, Star Wars or Monopoly?
DnD encourages its players to be creative and to use a system to come up with their own stuff. It allows them to be derivative to a degree that George Lucas' work does not. What Lucas (or any filmmaker, or any board game maker, etc etc) did was just put out a product without any exhortation to fans to come up with their own stuff.
Compare this against DnD, which has a very rich tradition of saying unto its followers, "Lo, followers, go forth and homebrew!" I can buy a book and tweak and alter it to my heart's content. I can suggest to other people other tweaks and alterations they may want to do with their products too. Neither of these is illegal.
True, Wizards could well try to shut down Fraternity, just like they could try to shut down Birthright.net and Spelljammer.org - but these sites have all been respectful of Wizards, supportive of their products, and (definitely for Ravenloft) the fans have done well through the release of official products and continue to promote them by word of mouth and post of forum.
Like my banks-insisting-on-barter analogy, it's something they could do, but they generally won't and to date they haven't. These sites coexist perfectly fine with their mission and their goals. Absent any truly abhorrent copyright violation, why would they want to kill the golden goose?
They simply asked for more money than ArtHaus was willing to pay.
WotC made the justified call that they were losing more money than they wanted to 3rd party books and they weren't going to support it unless they were making enough to justify the loss.
AFAIK, David, that's a speculation. May be right, but may be not. We never heard anything about money negociations IIRC. The only thing we have is this http://www.swordsorcery.com/ravenloft/index.php?articleid=276
The only thing we can say for sure is that they recalled most/all third party licences in 2006-2007 (Paizo, DL, RL, etc.). In their strategy, do they did want all their toys at home when 4e will come out?
---
This said, I agree that trying to shut down fan sites* would be a bad idea for the support we all give to D&D, and the image it would give them.
* a thing TSR supposedly have done in the fan mythology (but in fact never did, for the record. They just mentionned it on various boards, with a bully attitude, but never went farther. TSR never closed a fan site other than for posting copies of copyrighted material)
They are not crazy, they run a company and try to manage their product image too in an environement of perpetual fan complaints.
Joël
I find it very odd that after they fought so hard to make sure that Art Haus didn't get to renew the license, that they just left it expired and didn't do anything with it, expect a much askewed attempt at remaking the original adventure. (It did nothing for the setting but did wonders for the adventure.)
Remember that Ravenloft's license expired a year ago. That is why there were no more books released for the setting. And now we have the release of 'Expedition to Castle Ravenloft' and the announcement of 4.0th edition. I think that either WotC is either going to release the Ravenloft Setting themselves under 4.0th edition or force Art Haus, if they choose to pick up the license again, to update the rules to 4.0th edition.
You have to remember that the change this time from 3.5 to 4.0 is not like it was when they went from 2nd to 3rd. There are Thaco's to do away with. The 3.5 rules work well and that success is their boon and their bane. Who would update to 4.0 if you could continue to get DragonLance, Ravenloft, and Kingdoms of Kalamar (all official D&D settings) in 3.x rules.
There are two ways to get someone to buy your product. Be the best product for the best price, because people will give up some quality for financial savings or be the only product, but to do that you have to eliminate some of the competition. And WotC continuing to have their official settings produced in 3.5 rules would be to quote 'Liar, Liar' - "Do you mind buddy. I'm kicking my own ***** here!"
or force Art Haus, if they choose to pick up the license again, to update the rules to 4.0th edition.
Extremely unlikely!
Joël
Personally I'm still not on board for the new money pig 4e.
You want to continue Ravenloft? Do it in your basement. Just make sure that you put up some anti-teleport spells so the Wizard Assassins (aka "lawyers") can't get to you.
* a thing TSR supposedly have done in the fan mythology (but in fact never did, for the record. They just mentionned it on various boards, with a bully attitude, but never went farther. TSR never closed a fan site other than for posting copies of copyrighted material)
Since mid-1995 that's true. Earlier... not so much:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/misc/howIgothiredatTSR.html
And while I can't imagine them clamping down on people making their own content (monsters, adventures, NPCs) using their worlds and IP is a bit of a grey area. They still don't like people using some D&D monsters (Illithids are the big ones and dropping some names like Thri-Kreen gets netbooks shut down and C&D letters sent out).
Hell yeah bring back Ravenloft. Ravenloft came out before Vampire: The Masquerade. It was THE goth game circa mid 90's.
Ravenloft as a setting was released in January 1990. Vampire: The Masquerade in January 1991. Ravenloft as a setting grew out of the module I6 - Ravenloft from January 1983, which obviously has nothing to do with Vampire: The Masquerade.
I like Arthaus' treatment of the setting, but I see a major flaw there compared to TSR's: that's the frakkin' metaplot. It was like WW's old World of Darkness. It stopped being "Gothic D&D" to become some sort of "Gothic role-playing universe". D&D was mostly gone from the equation, and that didn't please me at all. Where were you know... the dungeons? The dragons? I'm glad Wizards stopped the license to publish Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. That is much closer to what I liked from the original TSR module and setting.
And as far as I remember, there were no dungeons in the Ravenloft module (unless you count Castle Ravenloft itself, which I so TOTALLY DO) or dragons.
Or at least the 10ft. wide halls of never ending traps with no lighting (Of course I brought my torch! I have everything in this bag of holding... except flint and steel, we're screwed!) and monsters every freaking turn you make (Is there a thing called the food chain or do these things not eat anything but adventures? They must have a utopia of monster kind.)
Nah, RL doesn't seem to have to many of those in every building or cave you come across.
I like Arthaus' treatment of the setting, but I see a major flaw there compared to TSR's: that's the frakkin' metaplot. It was like WW's old World of Darkness. It stopped being "Gothic D&D" to become some sort of "Gothic role-playing universe". D&D was mostly gone from the equation, and that didn't please me at all. Where were you know... the dungeons? The dragons? I'm glad Wizards stopped the license to publish Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. That is much closer to what I liked from the original TSR module and setting.
Umm, Odhanan, Ravenloft is supposed to have like next to no dragons. Seriously, if you want dragons, do Dragonlance, Eberron, or one of the other dragon-heavy settings. If I would've found a dragon in EtCR, I would have burned the book. And as dar as dungeons go, every home to a darklord is a freaking dungeon man! Just because none of the second ed adventures got republished doesn't mean that there weren't dungeons. The dungeons are where you find them, man! And besides, since when was a dungeon required for an adventure? do agree with you about the metaplot that could have been done away with, but at least it allowed for a current Raveloft. But seriously, if you need dragons and dungeons in your horror game, maybe it'd be better for you to get Heroes of Horror and/or d20 Horror, or one of the other numerous books about running a horror game.
I'm with RL347. Anyone who tries to impose the literal elements of Dungeons or Dragons on the Ravenloft setting clearly has no concept of just how incongruous and awfully forced that would be.
Ravenloft is the generalist "Gothic Horror" angle to the Dungeons and Dragons product line/multiverse.
There are monsters abound without referencing a typhonic Great Wyrm or the stereotypical dungeon (not that there's anything wrong with that, and sure the Domain lords have LITERAL dungeons where they may keep their prey/political prisoners that it amuses them not to kill).
It just does not fit. As stated, if that is your goal, you are better off applying Heroes of Horror to an existing D&D game.
On a completely unrelated note, I feel a petition should be started to renew/revert rights back to Arthaus. What do you guys think? Somebody check the one in my sig and follow the listed instructions and model provided to set one up!
As far as WotC goes: Let's not beat around the bush here people; WotC could care less about Ravenloft or D&D as a whole.
It's all about making a quick dollar(to WotC) and as much of those dollars as possible even if they have to make D&D into a tabletop version of World of Warcraft. I actually hope they don't touch Ravenloft after seeing what they did with the I6 module.
I mean come on "halfling vistani"?
I actually hope they don't touch Ravenloft with this 4E crap.
Even if we die-hard fans didn't like it, it made quite a bit of money from non-ravenloft fans, and I expect that, while Ravenloft probably won't get a FULL relaunch, I expect to see a few articles about it in the new magazine or maybe a few more adventures re-released (most likely with demons and the such, but hey, we can't get everything).
I just wanted to say I love Ravenloft, I have always loved Ravenloft. I made a New Years resolution once to buy everything Ravenloft related. Not only have I got all the novels and adventures and all resource books from the beginning to the sad end.
I would always buy Ravenloft new materials.
I want it back! Badly!
So, if it helps, if anyone is listening, I'd make a pact with the Dark Powers to see its return with real gusto, real enthusiasm, and real money driving its future.
Please?
I continue to buy even old Ravenloft products when I can and I do buy up to three of the player use books so that the players can pass multiple copies about. But I am just one DM.
Every thing is going the way of WoW now and that discourages me more than excites me for 4th edition. I don't just want action in the game. I want drama and roleplay to be encouraged as well and the simplification of things only makes me think of power gameing.
Ravenloft is the setting where power gameing should be discouraged some but not entirely. My players and I my self when I play love battles where there is a possibility that we might lose and even if some die we pull through and succede when every thing is against us. In all settings.
So I wish that people will start demanding to see the still good and viable setting's before all these new setting's like Eberron are released just for newness sake. These settings are not expansion packs alone. They are world's from which inspiration is drawn.
I'll wait and see, but as for the return of Ravenloft I am steadily losing hope of seeing it renewed ever again with WoTC current bussiness model.
yet all of us ravenloft fans should take a step back, grab a drink, and really look at this particular thread. really go from 1-3. see some of the posts, they way you guys ripped into Odhanan for wanting more dnd in a dnd game. first things first, ravenloft is a dnd game. period. maybe has a different flavor then most but don't crucify other fans for putting in their two cents and certainly don't get all preachy with telling us what you thing ravenloft/gothic horror is or should be. we went over this before, what works for some works for others, im certainly not going to get started with "no dungeons in ravenloft". (im sure the wererats in richemulot sewers and malken in nova vaasa as well as those thanni coming into barovia from mind flayers clutches are glad to know that they are not in dungeons. using strahds larders as an example was too easy) in, after that; the whining and blubbering, the crying and the pessimistic forecasts if wizards worked on it.
this is pretty much what we sound like to wizards right now:
Bring back ravenloft!
But if you bring it back, your got to do it my way!
Make it a niche product, and flip the finger to the rest of your customers!
And make sure you don't mess up! Because even if you invest writer payroll and artists you might still mess it up, we will still talk trash about you like we did with expedition to castle ravenloft, that was crap you tried to please everybody with!
You like forgotten realms and eberron more because they make more money for you!
Your new system 4th edition is crap! Even though we haven't seen it!
But ... we still want ravenloft in 4th edition!
Your only out for our money and your a big corporate boogie man! How dare you be a business!
You don't care!
You just want to make money rather then take a high risk on something already shaky venture!
Make sure you keep everything the same! but new!
We sound like a nagging ex girlfriends asking for child support for a dead baby.
would you run and jump at the chance to do anything for people who sound like this? i knew the fans of ravenloft wouldn't let me down when i posted previously that we are our own worst enemies. Even i looked down on expedition to castle ravenloft in its time but i learned quick to buy it and hope for better as i did with arthaus, the first book... "eh i hope they do better", and you know what they did. the last books, particularly van richtens guide to the fey and the bloodlines, was awesome.
we didn't even give wizards a chance before we were down their throats, trying to say that arthaus did a better job on this and that. you know what? i applaud the writers of arthaus 3.0-3.5 ravenloft. they had their work cut out for them. they had to deal with us lol. much respect to the fraternity of shadows, and joels group. man, i would have quit if i had to put up with a quarter of the crap i somtimes read in these posts in other worlds
im not looking to make enemies im looking to unite the fan base. with 4th edition coming out the face of most games is going to change, change is not bad. we want ravenloft support we may have already gotten it if not in name, then in theme.
take a closer look at the shadowfell. the links to ravenloft are obvious. the platform is there, all we have to do as a fanbase is become more flexible with our dead baby. power gamers want in? fine. more fantasy? sure. dark powers now have a face and a name? the raven queen? okay. personally i don't care if strahd looks like a constipated orc like pn elrod cited him, or as an Elven buccaneer, or Christopher lee or bela.
ravenloft needs that reboot, the fresh blood of new gamers, and a complete overhaul. If it all but ignores arthaus work in it, im okay with that.
If it all but ignores arthaus work in it, im okay with that.
Personally, I'd just like to find out what happened to the "Little Scholar" and I'd be okay with restarting from scratch. Not in the books, but here if we're going to throw out Arthaus.
Ravenharm has a point; a re-release of Ravenloft of any kind in 4e would be a victory. I wanted what a lot of folks that posted here did in the beginning. But time has a way of showing you when you're beaten.
I think it's what most people would like to see here when RL is back to 4e.
And yes, that means acknowledge the arthaus stuff. Most 3e Ravenloft fans loved it, so why hurt them by ignoring it as you suggest?
Hypothetic "preachy" ;) point: if they change the setting in the way they changed EtCR, there will be many complaints as EtCR didn't keep the right feel, or essence, or atmosphere of the original. Most of the current fans will go away, and pop, for WotC, there also goes the fan base on which they wanted to build a new following, and the fans who would have helped a lot in selling the game to their friends.
Just don't touch (most of) what have been done for RL under Arthaus
Joël
again I stress to the fans to keep an open mind before they tear what may become a future venture for wizards. But from the rhetoric on this board and the vast difference of opinion between the fans, I don't see it as a possible lucrative venture.
the faster we get out of a niche market to a more stable resource, the better for ravenloft. does that mean blindly buy any crap with the ravenloft logo on it? of course not. but we should be willing to give up some "feel, essence and atmosphere" to at the very least get the game published. like another person in this thread said, ravenloft is one of those settings which you either love or hate. when that person mentioned people walking out of the room at the first hint of ravenloft was something i have seen myself. we need the broader fan base to keep blood pumping through our dead baby. lol
As a commercial mural artist, I cringe when I see a mural that I did that's stood for years get painted over because the business has changed. I know the exact feeling of seeing your work become obsolete. and I acknowledge the work you and other fans have put in to this. But its the flow of business.
now is the time as fans and supporters of ravenloft we change our tempo.
For all the good work arthaus and others have done, its still a DMs game. It needs to be a player game. And for the dm oriented fans they might lose, they will only gain a broader following in player friendlier games, like the realms and ebberon.