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Isn't it canon that they created it in their attempt of doubling the ocean's life force?
In addition to the Brown Tide thing, I'm confused about the Behind the Veil feature on Page 12. It indicates that undead rhulisti can be found in Chapter 9, but there is no Chapter 9.
All I can say to Bruno, for the futur, is...break a leg! ;)
I haven't read through every part of it in detail, but it really looks like you guys went above and beyond the call of duty on this one. I was particularly shocked (in a good way) that rhulisti race stats were included.
In addition to the Brown Tide thing, I'm confused about the Behind the Veil feature on Page 12. It indicates that undead rhulisti can be found in Chapter 9, but there is no Chapter 9.
Keep in mind this is a beta release, and that due to the new rules and such, a later release will have that section. The adventure hooks were cut to make it so that you could feast your eyes on it.
That said: thanks for catching that. One of the reasons things get Beta released is to make sure those of us who have worked on it and spent time proofreading it haven't missed anything, as sometimes things fall through the cracks when you are reading critically for pages and pages.
-Rj-
Keep in mind this is a beta release, and that due to the new rules and such, a later release will have that section. The adventure hooks were cut to make it so that you could feast your eyes on it.
That said: thanks for catching that. One of the reasons things get Beta released is to make sure those of us who have worked on it and spent time proofreading it haven't missed anything, as sometimes things fall through the cracks when you are reading critically for pages and pages.
Gotcha. I figured it was something like that, but since nobody else had mentioned Chapter 9, I thought I'd bring it up.
I've spent some more time looking over the life-shaping system, and I've got a few questions on it.
The first sentence of Chapter 7 indicates that life-shaped items are divided into three categories: Tools, tissues, and creatures. There are also the three feats which enable life-shapers to make these: Shape Tool, Shape Tissue, and Shape Creature, respectively. So, if all life-shaped items do indeed fall into these three categories, what (if anything) can someone with ranks in Craft (life-shaping) make without any of the Shape feats?
Also, what are the prerequisites for making life-shaped weapons and armor? Will Craft (life-shaping) be sufficient, or does one also need ranks in Craft (weaponsmithing) or Craft (armorsmithing)?
Isn't it canon that they created it in their attempt of doubling the ocean's life force?
We might change this text a little bit as to avoid having this kind of confusion, it will probably be more vague in the future and not contradicting canon.
In addition to the Brown Tide thing, I'm confused about the Behind the Veil feature on Page 12. It indicates that undead rhulisti can be found in Chapter 9, but there is no Chapter 9.
Chapter 9 is the Adventure Sites chapter. I removed because I couldn't get an artist to draw me some maps for them (and no point in having it without maps), and I didn't want to hold the release just because of it. Hopefully, the next release will have it
Any chance that we could see some rules for the Living Weapons?
Refresh my memory on this, squid...
Readin through it now. Interesting take on the rebirth-me likey.
Thanks a lot, Z (and the others, too). All feedback is welcome, keep them coming :D
Hell I'm the one who made Sadira a sorceror queen in a future timeline I shouldn't be commenting on canon. Then again canon didn't say she wasn't a Sorceror Queen either;)
Refresh my memory on this, squid...
Well, seems I might've been mistaken on this one.
The living weapons, as described in the adv. Mystery of the Ancients (from the revised box set), were the creation of an "evil nature-bender". They were, obviously
, to be used against the nature-masters, but were locked away before they could be put to use. They were basically little mobile attack-units with the ability to "learn and improve". It is said that if one was to escape, it could "possibly destroy the world".Kind of cheezy in it's presentation, IMO, but they could possibly offer up some interesting situations.
My mistake/oversight is that I could've sworn that I remembered there being reference to more than just the one (well, more accurately "one collection") mentioned in the adventure - can't seem to find anything to support my horrible memory, however.
As an aside, it still might be interesting to provide for the possibility of there being more of these things. There is also mention of something that might follow a similar line of thinking, in WRotJC. In that book, it mentions a living organism causing mass destruction to the rhul-thaun village of Bav-rem. Might take a look at that as well, and see what can be done with little tid-bit.
What kind of death critters were you looking for?
As an aside, it still might be interesting to provide for the possibility of there being more of these things. There is also mention of something that might follow a similar line of thinking, in WRotJC. In that book, it mentions a living organism causing mass destruction to the rhul-thaun village of Bav-rem. Might take a look at that as well, and see what can be done with little tid-bit.
Check Experiment Bav-rem, page 97
:P
As an aside, it still might be interesting to provide for the possibility of there being more of these things. There is also mention of something that might follow a similar line of thinking, in WRotJC. In that book, it mentions a living organism causing mass destruction to the rhul-thaun village of Bav-rem. Might take a look at that as well, and see what can be done with little tid-bit.
I believe there might been some overlap on this particular bit, between Bruno's project and Peter's...
Check Experiment Bav-rem, page 97
:P
Well, maybe you could've made the reference a little more obvious.
Hmmmmm.......Ok, no you couldn't have. I'm just blind. hee hee
Now I´d better start conjuring guardians and drawing seals to make sure certain... players... I know don´t find this.
I´m quite sure the brown tide (whatever the real reason for its creation was) would look like a nice little improvement to the planet compared to what that druid/defiler/wanna-be dragon/"I´m a god"/... and that vampiric lich fighter/psion/defiler/psychopathic maniac/"I´m more godly than you"/... would make of these rules...
I´m quite sure the brown tide (whatever the real reason for its creation was) would look like a nice little improvement to the planet compared to what that druid/defiler/wanna-be dragon/"I´m a god"/... and that vampiric lich fighter/psion/defiler/psychopathic maniac/"I´m more godly than you"/... would make of these rules...
Just which two athas.org members are you talking about? :P
- Tools are not living? How can they be lifeshaped without any life to shape?
- To modify existing lifeforms, you need to be a Nature Bender.To be a Nature Bender you must first be a Nature Master. But the rhulisti discovered lifeshaping by modifying an existing lifeform (porus rocklike plants).
- Also Nature Benders seem to be able to modify creatures only partially in the fluff, but the mechanics provided only let them change a creature completely into another. (Presumably only creatures that already exist too, unless you know a DM that lets you design new creatures to polymorph into)
- After their victory over their foes, the Nature Masters punish the Benders by...using nature bending techniques on them! So the Nature Masters are all Nature Benders too now?
Might be nice if the Nature Benders used some of the same rules as creature creation, only applied to a currently living creature.
- Tools are not living? How can they be lifeshaped without any life to shape?
A product is not alive. It is the by-product of another creature. For example, the small arrowhead gecko sheds large scales that are perfectly shaped arrow heads. The arrowhead gecko is a life-shaped creature that was engineered to create arrow heads. The arrow head itself is an organic product. Since it is not alive, a product does not have a lifespan.
I am just following canon here.
- To modify existing lifeforms, you need to be a Nature Bender.To be a Nature Bender you must first be a Nature Master. But the rhulisti discovered lifeshaping by modifying an existing lifeform (porus rocklike plants).
I'm accepting suggestions on how to deal with this without creating a base class that any race would be able to select.
- Also Nature Benders seem to be able to modify creatures only partially in the fluff, but the mechanics provided only let them change a creature completely into another. (Presumably only creatures that already exist too, unless you know a DM that lets you design new creatures to polymorph into)
That was the best way I could find to replicate the ability. Accepting suggestions on this one as well.
- After their victory over their foes, the Nature Masters punish the Benders by...using nature bending techniques on them! So the Nature Masters are all Nature Benders too now?
Well, some countries kill people to say that killing people is wrong. Hypocrisy also exists on Athas.
Might be nice if the Nature Benders used some of the same rules as creature creation, only applied to a currently living creature.
I accept suggestions on how make this work, too. :D
Just which two athas.org members are you talking about? :P
None of them. Thank whomever (or whatever...) you pray to that those two WON´T show up anywhere on Athas. If they ever somehow ended up here, they´d make Dregoth, Hamanu, Andropinis, etc. drop everything they´re doing, forget about their private feuds and SELFLESSLY WORK TOGETHER FOR THE GREATER GOOD to kick those two out again...
They´re just two members of the party I sometimes DM for (in Greyhawk usually).
Just one slight nitpick so far.
Bottom of page 12, above the sidebar, under Role-playing Suggestions for the Rhulisti: I will indeed wear my lieshaping items proudly. What greater pride can there be than that of a lie-shaper?
- -14847: Formative years of life-shaping
- -14647: First Nature-Masters
- -14577: Creation of KA Calendar
- -14569: First use of independent life-shaped creatures
- -14294: Discovery of Nature-Benders
- -14271: Evil Clerics ally with Nature-Benders
- -14102: War between Nature-Masters and Nature-Benders
- -14071: The War ends
- -14027: Creation of Brown Tide
- -14026: Creation of Pristine Tower
- -13965: Rhan Thes-onel disappears
- -1683: Dregoth creates First-Gen Dray
(Everything red is from the timeline)
The only problem in the story would be the war ending prior to the creation of the Pristine Tower (As per the timeline the war lasted just over 30 years). However, a "Second of Wars" or something would be a nice way to tidy it up and make it work.
I really like the idea that the Nature-Benders were formed into Zik-Chil and they conducted eugenic experiments to improve the Kreen. It ties in perfectly.
If you can separate the "First of Wars" idea form the Brown Tide, everything would be perfect.
I've fixed the timeline.
The nature-masters created the brown tide to destory the nature-benders?
Isn't it canon that they created it in their attempt of doubling the ocean's life force?
Actually they didn't created the Brown tide on purpose. You are right to say it was while they tried to double the oceans life giving but the experience whent awry and instead the brown tide devoured the ocean. They then created the pristine tower to "kill the brown tide by channeling the power of the sun witch is the greatest source of power Athas has.
The Zik-Chil are also awfully weak for a CR 8 encounter.
Love the Lifeshapers handbook so far. i'v only scanned it but i'd like to say the Rhulisti is great, i never knew who the first race was. i thought they were the pyreen, lol.
so my first question is, do you think it is possible any of the Rhulisti managed to survive? even in a very smaller amount or a single person only? or are they absoutely gone? I see it says Long Gone Race, but just humor me.:D
it also says they are the original race. is this fact? they were the first race of athas? if so did they create the Pyreen?
also it says there maybe undead Rhulisti capable of lifeshaping. which is awesome. and it implies they are the shadow giants! is that true? Very cool stuff.
Lord Rhan Thes-onel sounds very cool, i have not finished reading so i dont know if more info is on him, but he sounds very powerful indeed!
loves the new feats. i really like the grafting! its like incarnum melders only better with that good athasian flavor! I'm going back for seconds very soon.
the spells rock, but Organic Disruption is freakin nuts.:D
Love the Prestige classes! to much to comment on them all at this time! I really wanna play a graft warrior! Or a Windrider!
I like the weapons, only skimmed through them so far, Question about them, is it possible to use them without being a Rhulisti? can a halfling use them or are lifeshaping skills required to operate them?
i like the idea of life shaped creatures though i have not had time to read in detail, i could picture an army of them placed in a sort of frozen sleep and then released later on. also cool that they can be PC's
I'll be back to comment on more, I'v been reading all the Athas.org love i can but only so many hours in a day!:D
I didn't like the brown tide retcon and Zik-Chil as former nature benders.
The Zik-Chil are also awfully weak for a CR 8 encounter.
Zardnaar, you will get much more results if instead of being insulting you actually help us fixing all the stuff you don't like. When you just say something "sucks" you don't give us too much to work on.
so my first question is, do you think it is possible any of the Rhulisti managed to survive? even in a very smaller amount or a single person only? or are they absoutely gone? I see it says Long Gone Race, but just humor me.:D
Actually there are hundreds, if not thousands, of genuine rhulisti on Athas. When the Brown Tide occured a number of them preferred not to chance that a solution would be found, and chose to weather the event.
If you cross-reference many of the TSR publications, and the Timeline, you come to this conclusion.
As to the places where they went to await a better future, those are unknow, except for vague references to underground facilities. These are supported - and probably based on - Denning's depictions of haflings in statis below Cleft Rock, in what looks like a rhulisti-built facility.
At any time those stored halflings might come back to life.
Also, and it sounds silly but a few here managed to make it sound swallowable, and even a good bit at that, the Messenger might be a lifeshaped object containing a few rhulisti.
Zardnaar, you will get much more results if instead of being insulting you actually help us fixing all the stuff you don't like. When you just say something "sucks" you don't give us too much to work on.
Most people here don't seem to like your retconned fluff about the brown tide. There was no reason to change the Athasian history. Zik Chil as former nature benders seems somewhat odd as well but I don't care to much about that but others do.
Zik Chil don't compare very well combat wise to a CR 5 encounter let alone CR 8. I would recommend you give them Psionics equal to a 7th level psion- probably Psychometaboloic but some would be other types of Psion.
I have been looking at the book and I think ya'll have done a wonderful job. My only problem has to do with your timeline. I recently redid the math and found that the original writer of the DS Timeline screwed it up. The dates should be something like this:
- -14847: Formative years of life-shaping
- -14647: First Nature-Masters
- -14577: Creation of KA Calendar
- -14569: First use of independent life-shaped creatures
- -14294: Discovery of Nature-Benders
- -14271: Evil Clerics ally with Nature-Benders
- -14102: War between Nature-Masters and Nature-Benders
- -14071: The War ends
- -14027: Creation of Brown Tide
- -14026: Creation of Pristine Tower
- -13965: Rhan Thes-onel disappears
- -1683: Dregoth creates First-Gen Dray
(Everything red is from the timeline)
The only problem in the story would be the war ending prior to the creation of the Pristine Tower (As per the timeline the war lasted just over 30 years). However, a "Second of Wars" or something would be a nice way to tidy it up and make it work.
I really like the idea that the Nature-Benders were formed into Zik-Chil and they conducted eugenic experiments to improve the Kreen. It ties in perfectly.
If you can separate the "First of Wars" idea form the Brown Tide, everything would be perfect.
With a global war, I think that they easily could still have been mopping up 50 years later. After all, the IRA's held on for how long after the other side's victory?
I wrote the original history blurb as a *quote* from Oronis' "Wisdom of Sorrow," meaning that it was intended to be subjective, i.e. Oronis' personal attempts to reconstruct the history from imperfect and contradictory sources. I have concerns about it being used as an authoritative history, and I hope that it will be restored to its subjective form.
Thri-Kreen of Athas, p. 3 -
We are now in the Brown Times, the age of our kind, when the world is dry. The kreen are matchless in the dry times. Long ago, were the Blue Times, when the world was new, and there was water everywhere, so much water that it appeared blue. The kreen of the Blue Time lived on pieces of land that floated in the water. It is said that early kreen had great, gossamer wings, which they used to fly between the pieces of land. They knew nothing of tools and building, but even then they hunted. In that age were only kreen and animals, and a few plants, on the pieces of land. Then, so slowly that no one could notice until it had already happened, the water went away. The pieces of land grew roots, and the roots grew together, until land covered most of the world, and water stood in only a few places. Plants grew in profusion over the new land. This was the Green Time. During the Green Time, more animals were born, and hunting was good. The kreen, able to travel to more of the world, discovered wondrous animals, kinds they could not have imagined.
During the Green Time, the kreen, much to their surprise, met mammals who could talk. Not quite kreen, they became known as dra-trin, the sleepers-like-people. Now we call them dra, and we reserve the term term for those who are more similar to kreen. The dra were small, but they, over time, gave rise to larger dra, and the many kinds of dra filled their part of the world. To resist the many races of dra, the kreen had to learn new skills. It was during the Green Time that kreen learned the way of fighting with the mind, and with weapons. The kreen fought, and they built, and they learned to change themselves to become better warriors and hunters. They survived.
Then came the beginning of the Brown Time, when dra turned on dra, and they used terrible forces on one another. These killed many plants and animals, and the world withered and turned brown. Hunting became poor, but the kreen were wise and skilled, and they could find prey where no others could. And the kreen became more numerous and more powerful, and formed great nations. The kreen of these before-times built cities, and they made beings of power as well. Many kreen were found in the world. Some stayed in the north, while others went south, to live among the dra who were left, to work with them and share knowledge with them.
In the now-times, still part of the Brown Time, there are still many kreen in the world. In the south, the dra turned against the kreen offer of peace, and the nations of the kreen fell. The kreen of the south, where you live, run free, caring for little but the hunt, living near the dra. And to the north? Well, you would be surprised at the kreen of the north . . .
the history of the kreen,
as told by Klik-Cheka’da
zik-trin’ta, tohr-kreen scout
Though his perspective is skewed toward the kreen point of view, Klik'’s telling of history is essentially a true one. Long ago, the planet of Athas was covered with water, the non-kreen races call this time the Blue Age, and during that time the halflings had a great and powerful civilization. However, most people do not realize that kreen— - the mantis people, usually called by their more specific names, thri-kreen and tohr-kreen,— lived during
that age as well. During the Blue Age, the kreen were primitive, their development stunted by their environment. The Blue Age ended and the waters retreated, largely due to the actions of the ancient halflings. Plants grew, and all manner of life spread across the surface of Athas. The kreen met the halflings, as well as many of the races that sprang from the halflings, among them dwarves, elves, humans, and giants. The kreen evolved, they developed weapons and a civilization. They honed their mental powers, and many became masters of the Way. Then came the Time of Magic, the age of Rajaat and of the Cleansing Wars he launched to eliminate the offshoots of the halfling race.
The kreen did not study magic, nor were they a part of the Cleansing Wars. Because they were not descended from halflings, Rajaat saw the kreen as little more than animals. At the end of the Cleansing Wars, Rajaat was imprisoned by his champions, who then became the Sorcerer Kings of those lands later called the Tyr Region. For a time, during the Cleansing Wars, the kreen lived in peace with some of the non-kreen peoples, but the ascension of the Sorcerer Kings ended that peace. The kreen of the Tyr Region became the nomadic hunters known as thri-kreen, the mantis warriors.
_____________End of Quote_____________________
This official source says flat-out that the Kreen and the Halflings didn't meet, at all, until the Green Age. It also states that the Kreen didn't begin to learn to make weapons and alter themselves until the early Green Age. This clearly states that they figured this out on their own, and it states later in Thri-Kreen of Athas that only the Zik-Chil remember how to do this, which is in the same passage where it refers to them as being like "throwbacks" to the ancient Kreen. There is just a lot of evidence, from both the Rhul-Than and Kreen perspectives, that the Kreen and every other race did not have contact until the Green Age, and that the Kreen evolved all of their own knowledge and traits, and are not the product of Rhulisti intervention.
There is just a lot of evidence, from both the Rhul-Than and Kreen perspectives, that the Kreen and every other race did not have contact until the Green Age,
So far so good. I agree that your sources support your conclusion that the Kreen and every other race did not have contact until the Green Age.
and that the Kreen evolved all of their own knowledge and traits
Here your only evidence seems to be some questionable assumptions about the usage of the word "evolution." For one thing, using the word "evolve" as a transitive verb makes it sound like something you do like putting on your own pants, and yet species evolution isn't something that species generally do "all on their own" -- evolution is usually part of being acted upon by outside pressure, usually other species such as predators, etc. For example, we say that Cows and grains "evolved," on Earth, and yet clearly history shows that human artificial selection was involved. And when moths in london "evolved" to match the increasingly sooty environment, that was simply because the vast majority of lighter shade moths were picked off by predators because they stood out.
The fact that Kreen remember how they lived before, does not mean that they haven't been altered mentally or physically. For example, if they were affected over several generations to become larger than they used to be, then why would they necessarily remember that?
and are not the product of Rhulisti intervention
"Rhulisti intervention" doesn't quite address anyone's argument here. The text you are responding to describes the kreen as manipulated by the zic-chil some time during the Green Age.
I don't see the consistency issue. In fact, if the kreen used to be smaller, that would help to explain how they could have survived on smaller islands, and also how the halflings could have noticed them.
It is good, but not objective, which means it is colored and may not be 100% factual.
Much like RaFoaDK.
This clearly states that they figured this out on their own
Not at all, and given the order of facts, I find that highly improbable:
The kreen met the halflings, as well as many of the races that sprang from the halflings, among them dwarves, elves, humans, and giants. The kreen evolved, they developed weapons and a civilization. They honed their mental powers, and many became masters of the Way.
I don't see any mention of figuring these things out "on their own." You think that it's pure coincidence that they developed weapons, a civilization, and a system of psionics *after* their first contact with other races?
It says in the author-perspective following Kilk's statements that they are essentially true, then goes on to clarify them from a "factual" , non-biased author's perspective.
Yes, but then you start adding terms like "on their own" which the non-biased author never said, and that I think contradict common sense and the author's clear intent to show that Kreen, like most species, evolved physically and culturally as their environment changed and as they met new species.
Personally retconning should only be used when theres confusion or contradictions in the rules/history and be kept reasonably minor. Theres never really been any arguement about what caused the brown tide and the primary sources seem to indicate the Kreen evolved on their own. Halflings don't have to be the source of everything on Athas.
the primary sources seem to indicate the Kreen evolved on their own.
They could only "seem" to mean that to someone who doesn't understand what evolution means, for example, that evolving on one's own is essentially a contradiction in terms. Look at the sources that you're interpreting. Kreen meet other races. Very next sentence, in same paragraph, Kreen evolve.
Halflings don't have to be the source of everything on Athas
No, they don't. But look at the sources and at the timeline, set aside the goofy comic-book assumptions about what "evolution" means, and bear in mind that Oronis managed to break free of Rajaat's brainwashing and is sensitive to the idea that the halflings have tampered with history. So I think it's a reasonable that he'd come to that as a hypothesis. As for objective history, I'm not comfortable saying that's what happened, period. I'd certainly say that's what some folks believe happened.
I'm accepting suggestions on how to deal with this without creating a base class that any race would be able to select.
Racial Substitution Level for rhulisti? or something similar?
Personally retconning should only be used when theres confusion or contradictions in the rules/history and be kept reasonably minor.
Totally agree. Why mess with something when it works fine the way it is? Athas.org have taken this one too far.
retconning should only be used when theres confusion or contradictions in the rules/history
On that general principle, I totally agree. And when we discussed this prior to publication, IIRC the whole overcouncil agreed that the passage would be Oronis' subjective account. Having different subjective opinions about what happened is not "retconning."
Theres never really been any arguement about what caused the brown tide
If you read this thread more carefully, you may notice that there are two different quasi-official, pre-Athas.org versions of where the BT came from. Since the sources are ambiguous, and since this is *not* a major issue that sweepingly affects Athas today, it seems perfectly consistent to just treat the conflicting sources as subjective, and offer other interpretations as well, to *avoid* retconning.When we're talking about freaking lifeshaping, something that has been a unique quality for the Rhulisti -- something Rajaat reportedly couldn't figure out (and he developed Arcane Magic instead), yet something that seems to be what the Zik-Chil can do, it's history is going to be confusing. It isn't like the Blue Age was a mere 1000 years ago. It was a long, long time ago. Civilizations literally rose and fell since the Blue Age. Trusting any kind of source, even the incredible genetic memory of the Kreen, is something a bit foolish. I'd doubt if any accounts of the Blue Age (and mind you, there is not many accounts at all, most historical knowledge just doesn't go back that far) would corroberate with each other for the most part. I'm almost positive that descendents of the two "known" Rhulisti factions -- the nature masters and the nature benders -- would have histories thatwere compatable. Especially as the Blue Age was so long ago, it is more myth than real any more.
And a lack of any kind of archaeology to study the ruins, decipher the written languages, etc, makes any kind of "scientific" observation of the past be unlikely. The individual DM should be who makes the call as to what is real or not real, if it pertains to his or her story and campaign. We sould not be looking for making something "canon" or "noncanon" arbitrarily, but rather simply provide the list of tools, story ideas, and suggestions for a DM to draw upon for an individual campaign.
Totally agree. Why mess with something when it works fine the way it is? Athas.org have taken this one too far.
You really have no constructive criticism to offer, do you?
You really have no constructive criticism to offer, do you?
Sure. Like I have said - leave it the way it was. What's so hard to understand about that? :P
The Zik'Chil way of doing things and the Rhulisti way just seem way too different. And I have to re-iterate the point that both Thri-Kreen of Athas and Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs state that the Rhulisti and the Kreen did not meet until the Green Age, and give NO evidence to the contrary. Also, I can't remember if it was in this thread ot the other one, but the simultaneous development of psionic ability amongst the Kreen and the Rebirth races occured as a result of the Psionic Devastator the Githyanki fell victim to (ref. Black Spine). The Githyanki are known to span the planes, and it's more likely that they accidentally lost track of some Xixchil slaves on Athas, who e\became known as the Zik'Chil, and infiltrated the local culture and people most similar to their own, rather than a bunch of Halflings becoming Kreen. And the timing fits, too.
The Githyanki are known to span the planes, and it's more likely that they accidentally lost track of some Xixchil slaves on Athas, who e\became known as the Zik'Chil, and infiltrated the local culture and people most similar to their own, rather than a bunch of Halflings becoming Kreen. And the timing fits, too.
That. Idea. Rocks. Now there's a "retcon" I could get behind!
Zik'Chil don't really lifeshape.
I agree with Vortexa on that point. It seems the overall discussion has become entangled: Even if the ziks are considered rhulisti, or were rhulisti at one time, doesn't mean that now a days they can still lifeshape, or lifebend.
I would prefer it if the extent of what they can do is based on what Jagged Cliffs and Revised Setting says about them, with some new stuff throwned in of course: Creation of goo or resin-based houses, same with armor and weapons - dasl - and the use of enzymes, hormones, and pheromones to transform and control those creatures susceptible to such substances...i.e. other kreen, or those species of vermin long ago modified by the ziks for this very purpose.
Xlor, Zik'Chil don't really lifeshape. They aren't creating wondrous works from lumpy.....coral, they are merely using enzymatic serums to boost and induce physical growth, then using surgical techniques to take advantage of said growth and do some restructuring to their speciment, then subjecting them to psychic conditioning.
I never said otherwise. All I've said is the idea that the Zik-Chil's ability to adapt like they do, could very easily be what is left of ancient Rhulisti lifeshaping, the genetic memory has distorted and weakened it over time. I didn't say they were growing things from coral. In fact, the nature benders weren't noted for making completely new things, just adapting existing creatures.
My point hasn't been "this is how it is, and that's that", it has been "here's a possibility, in a world where the truth about the past is clouded and forgotten."
My point hasn't been "this is how it is, and that's that", it has been "here's a possibility, in a world where the truth about the past is clouded and forgotten."
I like this rationale. All opinions and theories could be vaild based on the individual campaign and DM.
I like this rationale. All opinions and theories could be vaild based on the individual campaign and DM.
Precisely. and it also helps explain a lot of the inconsistencies that are rife through Dark Sun's material. The inconsistencies, especially the historical ones are simply able to be explained by differing subjective viewpoints, since there quite literally is no objective viewpoint about Athasian history -- the records are gone, the books were destroyed, historical records lost to time and the ravages of war. What's left is a bunch of whimsical speculation and guesses, based partially on myths and legends, partially on ancient and very subjective memories of elder beings like the Sorcerer-Kings, the Spirits of the Land, and even the genetic memories of the Kreen, partially on heavy-handed revisionist efforts done by multiple groups for whatever purposes. The results are a very clouded, mysterious, and imprecise understanding of history.
For the most part, digging through historical records is something the average Athasian doesn't have the luxury to pursue. In the rough and challenging environment of Athas, the average person spends more time working on keeping the basics of survival -- food, water, shelter, and simply staying alive are what tends to be first and foremost in their minds. Where everyone came from, that's sort of way down on the list of priorities.
I agree Brax. I tend to be of the mind that a world where there is no historical record written, for the most part, where there are millenia which have passed where powerful beings have forcably destroyed and rewritten vast sections of history to suit their needs, and a long oral tradition passed down by generations of people who have no formal schooling of any kind, divided and separated by regional and cultural lines, has resulted in a complete "muddying up" of Athasian history. I tend to believe that vast parts of the "real" Athasian history have been lost forever. What is left is very unreliable, and playing up contradictions between subjective sources is, to me, a very good call.
When we're talking about freaking lifeshaping, something that has been a unique quality for the Rhulisti -- something Rajaat reportedly couldn't figure out (and he developed Arcane Magic instead), yet something that seems to be what the Zik-Chil can do, it's history is going to be confusing. It isn't like the Blue Age was a mere 1000 years ago. It was a long, long time ago. Civilizations literally rose and fell since the Blue Age. Trusting any kind of source, even the incredible genetic memory of the Kreen, is something a bit foolish. I'd doubt if any accounts of the Blue Age (and mind you, there is not many accounts at all, most historical knowledge just doesn't go back that far) would corroberate with each other for the most part. I'm almost positive that descendents of the two "known" Rhulisti factions -- the nature masters and the nature benders -- would have histories thatwere compatable. Especially as the Blue Age was so long ago, it is more myth than real any more.
Makes sense, with the caveat that TV makes about the ZC not really lifeshaping, which we've both dealt with by point out that it fits the "nature bending" description.
And a lack of any kind of archaeology to study the ruins, decipher the written languages, etc, makes any kind of "scientific" observation of the past be unlikely. The individual DM should be who makes the call as to what is real or not real, if it pertains to his or her story and campaign. We sould not be looking for making something "canon" or "noncanon" arbitrarily, but rather simply provide the list of tools, story ideas, and suggestions for a DM to draw upon for an individual campaign
One of the potentially controversial things that I've done with the LC projects is the Great Library in Kurn, which involves a small group of scholars that have recently begun what you might call a kind of archeology. My reasoning is that since the WC says that Oronis is interested in restoration, that he'd want to study what he was thinking about restoring. But this archeology is just in its infancy, and is less likely to give hard answers than to raise new questions and conflicting theories. Not to mention give PCs motivation to go trawling old ruins, try to interview T'Liz & other knowledgeable undead, and other adventurous mischief.
Zik'Chil don't really lifeshape. They aren't creating wondrous works from lumpy.....coral, they are merely using enzymatic serums to boost and induce physical growth, then using surgical techniques to take advantage of said growth and do some restructuring to their speciment, then subjecting them to psychic conditioning. They're not making lightning generators and soar whales from Pith, they're shooting Kreen up with steroids and performing some surgery. It's apples and oranges.
Yes; that's one of the distinctions that Oronis' text makes (the stuff that's been put out of context in the LSH).
And I have to re-iterate the point that both Thri-Kreen of Athas and Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs state that the Rhulisti and the Kreen did not meet until the Green Age, and give NO evidence to the contrary.
So I'll reiterate the points that (1) what you just said fails to distinguish objective history with subjective speculations; (2) that the LSH passage that we're talking about does not posit a meeting between Rhulisti and Kreen before the Green Age; and (3) that you still have not pinpointed any exact phrase that says that "the Rhulisti and the Kreen did not meet until the Green Age." It says that they met during the Green Age. Not that they *never* met before.
Also, I can't remember if it was in this thread ot the other one, but the simultaneous development of psionic ability amongst the Kreen and the Rebirth races occured as a result of the Psionic Devastator the Githyanki fell victim to (ref. Black Spine).
So? The issue here is this line: "They honed their mental powers, and many became masters of the Way." The Rhul-Thaun have "psionic ability" but as a people, they do not "hone their mental powers" nor do many of them become "masters of the Way." Yes, the psionic ability came from the psionic event that seems to divide the age of Rebirth from the Green Age. But the order of events in the text implies that the kreen did not systematically study psionics, as a people, until after they'd made significant contact with the Rebirth races.
I never said otherwise. All I've said is the idea that the Zik-Chil's ability to adapt like they do, could very easily be what is left of ancient Rhulisti lifeshaping, the genetic memory has distorted and weakened it over time. I didn't say they were growing things from coral. In fact, the nature benders weren't noted for making completely new things, just adapting existing creatures.
My point hasn't been "this is how it is, and that's that", it has been "here's a possibility, in a world where the truth about the past is clouded and forgotten."
My take as well.
Keep in mind that this is a beta release guys. One of the points is to find and fix inconstancies. Nothing in the book is official yet, and there are parts of the book that need to be clarified and fixed. The first chapter is Oronis' conjecture ... a guess. The problem is that that's not clear enough.
Nor is my particular editorial stance clear enough: I want no out-of-character clarifications of the past. The past is lost, gone. There are people who lived through some of that past, but they all have interests to protect, or are flat-out insane. Your primary sources aren't trustworthy, and your written records have been systematically hunted down and destroyed for over two-thousand years.
Thus, the past: Lots of guesssing, no truth. Just opinions, which can be wrong.
Thus, the past: Lots of guesssing, no truth. Just opinions, which can be wrong.
A "Behind the Veil" footnote regarding Athas' history and its vagueness or inaccurateness may do wonders in future releases.
A "Behind the Veil" footnote regarding Athas' history and its vagueness or inaccurateness may do wonders in future releases.
Point taken. ;)
A "Behind the Veil" footnote regarding Athas' history and its vagueness or inaccurateness may do wonders in future releases.
Brilliant. We've made the statement so many times here, and yet I've never even thought of something so helpful and simple as what you've suggested. :embarrass Thank you.
Yeah, Sysane should really be made a templar... /oink!
Shhhhh....I'm the secret member. ;)
You really do need to be in the mailing list Brax :P
I second that.
just a thought. behind the veil is probably enough, but i always like reading the thought of the designers. helps me accept things i might other wise doubt. i know thats what the BtV is now, but something extra at the end of each product might allow for More info to be added.
Shhhhh....I'm the secret member.
Looks like the secret´s out... if it ever was one.
Looks like the secret´s out... if it ever was one.
I'm more the member that no one talks about :P
I'm more the member that no one talks about :P
Who are you again?
To start with I agree with the suggestion making the text read as Orinis’s opinion of the events for chapter 1. It gives it a better Dark Sun feel to have the history be someone's opinion/ version of it.
Page 5
Evolution of Life-Shaping
“Originally designed to wipe out the rhul-takh abominations and the life-shaped warships of the benders, the Brown Tide infected the whole ocean, including the life-shaped underground city-shells. The Pristine Tower killed the Brown Tide, but changed the sun and shrunk the oceans….”
This paragraph could need some work. It seems to assume the reader already has read the decsription of the Brown Tide and the Pristine Tower from the other products. Just summarizing what happened, and leaves out some of the drama. 'harnessing the power of the sun through the Pristine Tower to destroy the Brown Tide' 'so much power was drained that the sun changed colors'
Page 6
The elves were masters of the sea?
I am not sure I like the labelling of an entire race like that. And am not sure that it fits the elves. Ofcourse such labelling happens all the time in D&D.
Page 13
"Favored Class: Bard. A multiclass rhulisti’s bard class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point for multiclassing. "
There is a wording problem in that sentence. He takes an experience point for multiclassing?
Page 13
Relations
"With a few occasional kreen attack from the grasslands or a occasional pyreen who comes to visit, the rhul-thaun have no notion of what happens beyond the Misty Border of their domain. "
Pyreen comes to visit? I thought the pyreen were secretive and reclusive so that even if the pyreen visited the rhul-thaun, why would they do so openly and not disguised as rhul-thaun?
Page 14
Magic:
"Arcane magic remains a mystery among the rhul-thaun. ..."
The thul-thaun know about the reggelids who are defilers so they know of magic. They may not know how arcane magic works, or how to use it. But they must have some name for the defiling aspect. They call reggelids “hated-destroyers” and would probably use that name for all wizards.
Page 14
Names
This section did not mention the a-/ o- prefix used for female/ male names mentioned in Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs. ??
Page 14-15
Table 3-2
The column widths on the table need to be fixed.
Good work on compiling all of the natural hazards of the Jagged Cliffs. Along with the diseases.
"Favored Class: Bard. A multiclass rhulisti’s bard class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point for multiclassing."
There is a wording problem in that sentence. He takes an experience point for multiclassing?
I forgot to add experience point penalty to the phrase. Fixed.
"With a few occasional kreen attack from the grasslands or a occasional pyreen who comes to visit, the rhul-thaun have no notion of what happens beyond the Misty Border of their domain. "
Pyreen comes to visit? I thought the pyreen were secretive and reclusive so that even if the pyreen visited the rhul-thaun, why would they do so openly and not disguised as rhul-thaun?
This was taken from the Wanderer's Journal. But you have a point in there.
"Arcane magic remains a mystery among the rhul-thaun. ..."
The thul-thaun know about the reggelids who are defilers so they know of magic. They may not know how arcane magic works, or how to use it. But they must have some name for the defiling aspect. They call reggelids “hated-destroyers” and would probably use that name for all wizards.
That was from Windriders. I think they know magic per se, but they don't understand it, I think the same that indians known gunpowder but did not understand it (at first).
This section did not mention the a-/ o- prefix used for female/ male names mentioned in Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs. ??
I guess it was on my blood so much after re-reading it so much I forgot. Added.
The column widths on the table need to be fixed.
Fixed.
Thanks again, and keep it coming! :D
Page 17 & 19
I am not sure what the difference is between the Graft Taker feat and the Additional Body Slot feat. Other than one is Epic and one is general. Are two feats needed?
Page 21
Take the Heat feat makes no sense to me as a Racial feat for rhul-thaun. Most of Athas is a burning wasteland, much hotter than the Cliffs. The average Athasian suffers from hotter temperatures on a daily basis.
I do not see why living in the mists, which help cool the region slightly than the rest of Athas, would help anyone resist fire damage.
25
Cliff Climber
The Hide in the Mists ability does not seem to fit the flavor of the class. He is not a thief, and none of his other abilities relate to this one.
27
Becoming a Gahv-erahn
Entry Requirements
Feats: Combat Expertise
He has combat expertise as a requirement but is described as a pacifist?
28
Gahv-erahns in the game
“Since gahv-erahn live to heal, too much peace and quiet can get on their nerves, so many join adventuring parties in order to exercise their skills.”
I cannot believe this statement. No healer/ pacifist is going to wish for war. How about ‘Since gahv-erahn live to heal, in times of peace, many seek a place in adventuring parties to provide their services to those who would need them the most.’ Or something like that.
29
Graft warrior
There is no racial requirement for this class? Seems like all the other classes had a racial requirement.
Class Features
Expanded graft
The graft does not die of old age? What about after the master dies? How long can the graft live then? This could be important if the PCs face and defeat an enemy Graft Warrior and want to take his shapes.
Playing a Graftwarrior
The graft warrior grows grafts from his body without buying them. How is that possible?
This was taken from the Wanderer's Journal. But you have a point in there.
Okay. I did not think to check there, so I guess it is ok. There were one or two other statement that I did not think made much sense but then found them in Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs or somewhere else, and I decided not to mention them.
I am not sure what the difference is between the Graft Taker feat and the Additional Body Slot feat. Other than one is Epic and one is general. Are two feats needed?
Graft-taker is for you to have more grafts than your Con normally allows. but you can't have more grafts than your body slot limit. Additional Body Slot circumvents that.
Take the Heat feat makes no sense to me as a Racial feat for rhul-thaun. Most of Athas is a burning wasteland, much hotter than the Cliffs. The average Athasian suffers from hotter temperatures on a daily basis.
I do not see why living in the mists, which help cool the region slightly than the rest of Athas, would help anyone resist fire damage.
That's because of the Hot Mist areas in the Jagged Cliffs (see Steam and Mist), capable of boiling someone alive. They're the equivalent of a ssurran resistance to heat.
The Hide in the Mists ability does not seem to fit the flavor of the class. He is not a thief, and none of his other abilities relate to this one.
A ranger is not a thief as well, and they get to do the same. They are the vertical equivalent of a ranger, don't you think it fits?
He has combat expertise as a requirement but is described as a pacifist?
Even though it says combat in the feat name, the feat is all about decreasing your offensive power in order to get a better defense. This was the feat I found represented best the flavor for the class. Do you have a suggestion for something else better?
I cannot believe this statement. No healer/ pacifist is going to wish for war. How about ‘Since gahv-erahn live to heal, in times of peace, many seek a place in adventuring parties to provide their services to those who would need them the most.’ Or something like that.
You're right, I should rewrite this part.
There is no racial requirement for this class? Seems like all the other classes had a racial requirement.
I wanted to create a prestige class that wasn't rhul-thaun only. You still need to come by with 2 grafts, which will be hard, but not impossible, for someone that isn't rhul-thaun.
The graft does not die of old age? What about after the master dies? How long can the graft live then? This could be important if the PCs face and defeat an enemy Graft Warrior and want to take his shapes.
I think the class would lose most of its appeal if the grafts simply died after a few months. I should specify that they don't die of old age while on the original host only.
The graft warrior grows grafts from his body without buying them. How is that possible?
They grow from the two other grafts the graftwarrior has, as well from his own body. Cool, huh?
Resources
What is “your sanctuary” that is mentioned in this paragraph?
36
Becoming a Nature-Master
There is a strange comment about taking the dune trader prestige class here. Why dune trader and not one of the other prestige classes in this book? Seems out of place to suggest the dune trader.
37
Organization
The description of the Conclave of Natural Harmony, who seem a powerful group, could be expanded. Where does it meet? Why do they have such power in the rhul-thaun society? This may not be the section to describe them in full, so maybe it fits better somewhere else better.
37-38
NPC Reaction
“As the personification of rhulisti superior knowledge and culture, he is regarded much as a famous gladiator or a skilled healer would be.”
Gladiators are part of rhulisti society? I did not think they had arenas.
38
Windancer
The description paragraph mentions the “stone-covered sky”? I do not understand the reference. They do not live underground, right?
39
Combat
The section mentions sneak attack and poison, but neither is an ability or a requirement of the windancer.
41
Mount Advancement
Why do windrider mounts gain levels? There does not seem to be the mystical connection of a wizard and familiar. It is just a guy who uses an animal for travel. Does a knight’s warhorse gain levels with him?
42-43
Organization
“After successfully riding their life-shaped mount for their first time in the Cliffs, they receive their cosmetic graft from the most senior windrider in the community, …”
Mentions that after only 1 flight they become windriders? I know I would not get on an airplane with a pilot that has only flown once before in his life. How about, ‘after successfully using their life-shaped mount to pass a test flight conducted by the most senior windrider in the community …’
That's because of the Hot Mist areas in the Jagged Cliffs (see Steam and Mist), capable of boiling someone alive. They're the equivalent of a ssurran resistance to heat.:
I don't know if I buy that. Also, if that was the case, there are other races that also live on the cliffs or swamps. The pterrans, bvanen, reggelids. They would be just as exposed to the hot mists as the halflings and should/ could also gain the feat.
A ranger is not a thief as well, and they get to do the same. They are the vertical equivalent of a ranger, don't you think it fits?:
I was not looking at them as rangers. More like fighters with climbing skills. I guess that does fit them if they are more like rangers.
Even though it says combat in the feat name, the feat is all about decreasing your offensive power in order to get a better defense. This was the feat I found represented best the flavor for the class. Do you have a suggestion for something else better?:
But the ability is still combat focused. A doctor does not spend his days learning better ways to protect himself in case he is in a fight. Even if he does it will not make him a better doctor.
I am not sure of a better suggestions. Some possiblities could be
Skill Focus (heal); Self-suficient;
From the Dark Sun rules - companion, disciplined
or maybe Tender of Life from this book.
Or maybe he needs a new one. A feat that doubles the bonus from using a healer's kit or double the number of uses of a healer's kit.
I think the class would lose most of its appeal if the grafts simply died after a few months. I should specify that they don't die of old age while on the original host only.
I agree about the class losing appeal if the grafts died after a few months.
Besides having the grafts live as long as the host, another could be to have the grafts have their lives extended to 3d8 years instead of months.
So they could outlive there original host if he is killed.
They grow from the two other grafts the graftwarrior has, as well from his own body. Cool, huh?
weird :P
37-38
NPC Reaction
“As the personification of rhulisti superior knowledge and culture, he is regarded much as a famous gladiator or a skilled healer would be.”
Gladiators are part of rhulisti society? I did not think they had arenas.
This particular comment, and a few others, show that you might be taking things a bit too literally? Arena, as a comparaison, is adressed to the reader of the book, which is not rhul-taun but planet Earth human who happens to play DS and know gladiators and arenas. Its a valid comparasion, especially in closed societies like the rhulisit's, where to compare to a rhulisti thing would further compound the confusion of the reader...
Ex: What's a grashuk? See vrodak. What's a vrodak? Refers to grashuk.
41
Mount Advancement
Why do windrider mounts gain levels? There does not seem to be the mystical connection of a wizard and familiar. It is just a guy who uses an animal for travel. Does a knight’s warhorse gain levels with him?
Its now a 3.5 standard in the latest books, and frankly since a long time now, to provide additional HD, AC, and atk bonuses to mounts - even mundane ones, like a griffon - based on the PrC level the character has attained. Check Sandstorm.
The pterrans, bvanen, reggelids. They would be just as exposed to the hot mists as the halflings and should/ could also gain the feat.
I agree.
Arena, as a comparaison, is adressed to the reader of the book, which is not rhul-taun but planet Earth human who happens to play DS and know gladiators and arenas. Its a valid comparasion, especially in closed societies like the rhulisit's, where to compare to a rhulisti thing would further compound the confusion of the reader...
Ex: What's a grashuk? See vrodak. What's a vrodak? Refers to grashuk.
Ok, sounds reasonable. But it still seems like the metaphor is mixed. Gladiators they do not have, but skill healers the rhulisti would.
What about, ‘As the personification of rhulisti superior knowledge and culture he is regard much as a famous Tyrean gladiator or a skilled water cleric healer would be.’
I suggested Tyrean gladiator because they are free gladiators. The slave gladiators in the other city-states, I do not think generate a feeling of respect that seems to be implied in the sentence. They are slaves – citizens may be in awe of their fighting ability, but they still look down upon them.
Another possibility could be ‘army leader’ or ‘Urik army leader’. Which would be a position of respect in the society.
Page 45
Table 6-1
The table could use a column to include if the weapon is a graft, animal, tissue or such.
Page 46
Table 6-1 and 6-2
Why are prices in CP? I know it makes it easy to use ceramics in all DS products, but the rhul-thaun and the rhulisti would not use ceramic pieces would they but their own currency?
Page 48
Ironthread
It is described as being 1 inch in diameter, but also being so thin as to cut someone. 1 inch in diameter is very thick. For a threat to be thin enough to cut someone it would have to be so small, I do not think you could measure it in inches. Maybe 1/16 of an inch. 1 millimeter in diameter.
Page 49
Mounts
Gon-evauth
States that the gon-evauth require a saddle. But these sky whales probably requires more than a saddle, but a basket, and ropes.
Page 52
Malleable tool
The paragraph does not say how it hardens. Only that it is malleable and after it hardens it is firm. How does the owner make it harden?
Page 52
Mysk, False
Should not the disguise checks bonus only apply when the wearer is attempting to impersonate the last person to where the mask?
Recorder
“This device resembles 5-inch side cube.”
What is a 5-inch side cube? Is the sentence missing some letters? “a 5-inch sided cube.” A cube with each side 5 inches long?
Suction disk
They are described as the size of a man’s palm. Should not they be the size of a halfling’s hand, since they are made by halflings for halflings.
What is “your sanctuary” that is mentioned in this paragraph?
That's how rhul-thaun call life-shaping facilities. It should be capitalized.
There is a strange comment about taking the dune trader prestige class here. Why dune trader and not one of the other prestige classes in this book? Seems out of place to suggest the dune trader.
I saw something similar in another WotC book and I liked it. Dune trader seems to be a natural combination for life-shapers.
The description of the Conclave of Natural Harmony, who seem a powerful group, could be expanded. Where does it meet? Why do they have such power in the rhul-thaun society? This may not be the section to describe them in full, so maybe it fits better somewhere else better.
These sections are supposed to be generic, so DMs can easily fit it the place into their campaigns, but I guess we could expand it a little bit...
Gladiators are part of rhulisti society? I did not think they had arenas.
I guess Penn sums it well. But this could be better explained.
The description paragraph mentions the “stone-covered sky”? I do not understand the reference. They do not live underground, right?
Hmm, that part was took from WRotJC. I guess it's because the Cliffs are so high and long, they seem to be part of the sky itself?
The section mentions sneak attack and poison, but neither is an ability or a requirement of the windancer.
The class is very sneaky, and bards or rogues are naturals for it. I guess I assumed you would either have one of them available.
Why do windrider mounts gain levels? There does not seem to be the mystical connection of a wizard and familiar. It is just a guy who uses an animal for travel. Does a knight’s warhorse gain levels with him?
See Penn's explanation.
Mentions that after only 1 flight they become windriders? I know I would not get on an airplane with a pilot that has only flown once before in his life. How about, ‘after successfully using their life-shaped mount to pass a test flight conducted by the most senior windrider in the community …’
You're right. Changed it.
The table could use a column to include if the weapon is a graft, animal, tissue or such.
I'll try to find a way to do it that doesn't mess up the formating.
Why are prices in CP? I know it makes it easy to use ceramics in all DS products, but the rhul-thaun and the rhulisti would not use ceramic pieces would they but their own currency?
Right again. I've added a BtV section to explain this.
It is described as being 1 inch in diameter, but also being so thin as to cut someone. 1 inch in diameter is very thick. For a threat to be thin enough to cut someone it would have to be so small, I do not think you could measure it in inches. Maybe 1/16 of an inch. 1 millimeter in diameter.
Fixed.
States that the gon-evauth require a saddle. But these sky whales probably requires more than a saddle, but a basket, and ropes.
Ok, improved the explanation.
The paragraph does not say how it hardens. Only that it is malleable and after it hardens it is firm. How does the owner make it harden?
Ooops.
Should not the disguise checks bonus only apply when the wearer is attempting to impersonate the last person to where the mask?
Disguised can be used either to look like someone or just not like yourself. You gain the bonus for both.
What is a 5-inch side cube? Is the sentence missing some letters? “a 5-inch sided cube.” A cube with each side 5 inches long?
Ooops again.
They are described as the size of a man’s palm. Should not they be the size of a halfling’s hand, since they are made by halflings for halflings.
Fixed.
I don't know if I buy that. Also, if that was the case, there are other races that also live on the cliffs or swamps. The pterrans, bvanen, reggelids. They would be just as exposed to the hot mists as the halflings and should/ could also gain the feat.
I altered for it to be a regional feat.
Page 52-53
Graft success table
No thri-kreen? Or monster races such as gith or tarek? If included they probably should be fairly low, similar to the pterran or aarakocra, but it would be cool to have a rare encounter with gith wielding some life-shapes.
Page 53
Number of Grafts
For the negative levels when the maximum number of grafts has been exceeded. Did you consider making it an ability drain instead? (Str, Dex, Con) Just a comment I had when reading it.
Body and Graft Slots
“Small and Tiny creatures have half as many slots (rounded down), …”
This does not leave halflings with many slots. Considering all of these grafts were designed to be worn by halflings, I think that is a mistake. I would suggest, either ‘round up’ or only ‘Tiny creatures have half as many slots (rounded down),…’
Page 53-54
Tissue Description
Location
“Multiple grafts using the same slots are acceptable if they don’t exceed the number listed on Table 7-3 (or more if the character has the Graft-Taker feat).
Which table? I think it may mean 7-4: Standard Graft Locations. Table 7-3 is: Massive Damage Effects. But it may be another.
Either way I am confused if multiple grafts can use the same slot?
Tissue Descriptions
In this section there are a few grafts that look as if they are missing some description. It describes the graft and gives the game bonus that you gain from wearing the graft, but does not describe why you gain the bonus.
These are the ones I noticed.
Crystal lens
Earial
Flexar
Lightvisor
Olfactor’s
Red lens
Agile tail
Here is the description for Crystal Lens
"Crystal lens are applied directly to your eyeballs and all your eyes must receiva a lens to gain any benefit.
Crystal lens reduces the range penalty for Spot checks to -1 for every 30 feet of distance."
What is missing is why the crystal lens reduces the spot penalty, i.e. it increases your vision.
Page 56
Detoxifier
Can you take detoxifier before being posioned and get some benefit?
Page 58
Ingenie
Unlike other 3-type grafts this one is missing what the different types of grafts do. For the soolmon, which enhances Wis, it “stimulates that portion of the brain that deals with a particular type of problem solving.”
59
Mysk
‘A mottled red, hollow leathery cone about a foot in diameter.’
That is not a complete sentence?
Quick strike
This graft hides the blade right? When activated the blade springs out ready for use? That is not mentioned in the description.
Soolmon
“You cannot see with the soolmon, but they move and focus with his own eyes.”
Confusing pronouns - you - they - his.
61
Stabliziers
How long do the stabliziers last in your system? Do I take it at the start of a day? Start of an adventure? Beginning of each year?
Grasping tail
Grasping tail is only a weak version of the gladiator’s tail?
62
Tendonils
“You may have multiple tendonils (only one of each type, however), but each is considered a separate graft.”
What are the different types? They are not mentioned in the description.
Page 52-53
Graft success table
No thri-kreen? Or monster races such as gith or tarek? If included they probably should be fairly low, similar to the pterran or aarakocra, but it would be cool to have a rare encounter with gith wielding some life-shapes.
Part of me feels this table should be broken down by creature type instead of by race.
Aberration, Animal, Construct, Dragon, Elemental, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical beast, Monstrous humanoid, Ooze, Outsider, Plant, Undead, and Vermin types would each have a base percentage chance for a graft to take to them. Creatures with two types use the worse of the two percentile chances. The precentage could be further altered based on a creatures Con modifier. Each Con modifier could grant an increase to the chance that a graft takes to you by 5%. The stronger one's life force the greater chance that a graft will accept you as a host.
No thri-kreen? Or monster races such as gith or tarek? If included they probably should be fairly low, similar to the pterran or aarakocra, but it would be cool to have a rare encounter with gith wielding some life-shapes.
The concept is that graft were made by the rhulisti for the rhulisti, so if you're not one of them and not a Rebirth race either, your physiognomy is too different for the graft successfully take on your body.
For the negative levels when the maximum number of grafts has been exceeded. Did you consider making it an ability drain instead? (Str, Dex, Con) Just a comment I had when reading it.
Hmm, could you care to elaborate a little bit more? It sounds interesting.
This does not leave halflings with many slots. Considering all of these grafts were designed to be worn by halflings, I think that is a mistake. I would suggest, either ‘round up’ or only ‘Tiny creatures have half as many slots (rounded down),…’
Point taken.
Which table? I think it may mean 7-4: Standard Graft Locations. Table 7-3 is: Massive Damage Effects. But it may be another.
Either way I am confused if multiple grafts can use the same slot?
Yes, it was a typo. It can use the same slot, but not the same "spot". Legs and arms are long, so they can have more than one graft in there (upper and lower arm, for example). I can try to explain it in a better way, but I can't find how.
In this section there are a few grafts that look as if they are missing some description. It describes the graft and gives the game bonus that you gain from wearing the graft, but does not describe why you gain the bonus.
I'll look into those.
Can you take detoxifier before being posioned and get some benefit?
Good point. You do now
Unlike other 3-type grafts this one is missing what the different types of grafts do. For the soolmon, which enhances Wis, it “stimulates that portion of the brain that deals with a particular type of problem solving.”
Hmm, where?
The memory ingenie is furry, and marked with a complex pattern of black and orange diamonds. The logic ingenie is shiny and smooth, colored pale blue with a chaotic pattern of fine black lines. The creativity ingenie is a dull brown, and textured like human skin.
The same goes for the soolmon...
That is not a complete sentence?
No?:P
Quick strike
This graft hides the blade right? When activated the blade springs out ready for use? That is not mentioned in the description.
Fixed.
Confusing pronouns - you - they - his.
Fixed.
Stabliziers
How long do the stabliziers last in your system? Do I take it at the start of a day? Start of an adventure? Beginning of each year?
Once activated (by pressing it against your chest), they stabilize you and they're gone.
Grasping tail is only a weak version of the gladiator’s tail?
Or is the gladiator tail a stronger version of the grasping tail? :P
What are the different types? They are not mentioned in the description.
Fixed.
Part of me feels this table should be broken down by creature type instead of by race.
Aberration, Animal, Construct, Dragon, Elemental, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical beast, Monstrous humanoid, Ooze, Outsider, Plant, Undead, and Vermin types would each have a base percentage chance for a graft to take to them. Creatures with two types use the worse of the two percentile chances. The precentage could be further altered based on a creatures Con modifier. Each Con modifier could grant an increase to the chance that a graft takes to you by 5%. The stronger one's life force the greater chance that a graft will accept you as a host.
I think this goes against the basic principle of the life-shaped, but I like the concept of your rules. I'm adding this as an alternate rule for grafts.
Hmm, could you care to elaborate a little bit more? It sounds interesting.
When I read this section on Number of Grafts regarding the negative levels when exceeding the character's graft limit, I thought ok so that is a rule probably for balance, but can I justify the affect in some way. After thinking about it for a little while, I concluded that the grafts drain some of the wearer's life energy to fuel themselves. One graft may not drain enough to notice but after the limit the drain is enough to affect the character's life force, thus the negative level. That sounds reasonable.
But I thought, would it not affect the character's health, i.e. Constitution? Would that be a better way to show the drain the character's body to have a CON drain. But a CON drain has its own problems. One of which is that the graft limit is based on CON, so having the penalty be a CON drain could cause the wearer's graft limit to drop causing another lost CON, which could trigger another drop in the wearer's graft limit. and on.
So that is why I threw in the other physical attributes, Str and Dex. Maybe the graft drain affects one of the other physical attributes. Neither Str or Dex really seems to fit the explaination as well as Con, but the rules side may make a Con drain too unbalance and unweildy.
That was just my thought process and I was wondering if you went down a similar line of reasoning, and came to a better conclusion.
Page 68
Accessories
First paragraph:
“To shape a life-shaped creature accessory, a character must use up raw materials costing half the item’s price. Then you must succeed at a Craft (life-shaped) check (DC 20) …”
Second paragraph:
“A character can create a life-shaped creature accessory with a successful Craft (life-shaped) check (DC10).”
I do not understand the two different DC amounts. Both appear to be to create a life-shaped creature accessory, but are two different amounts.
Page 69
Fire Extinguisher
The fire extinguisher foam sounds too modern. I do not like it.
Maybe something like sand would fit Athas better.Mutated item
Why is a remove curse spell needed to get rid of mutated life-shaped items? It is not cursed but a living creature. How about you need to kill the life-shaped item or rip it from the host causing damage.
88
Ecology
States that the anagos mating season is in the Spring.
Is there a Spring? Athas does not normally have the same seasons as we do.
89
Ecology
“Arrowhead geckos, being life-shaped constructs, can be found anywhere, although they seem to prefer warm climates where they can find small insects and fruit.”
This seems to imply that life-shapes can be found anywhere? Or does it mean that as constructs the arrowhead geckos can survive in most environments.
92-93
Random Starting Ages Table
The table says branen are adults at 15. But the Ecology section says 2 years.
“A young bvanen develops into an adult in approximately two years.”
94-95
Typical Characteristics
The description says that they have fur. But the picture from Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs shows a hairless creature, very bony almost reptilian. Instead of making the climbdogs too similar to real world dogs, making them seem alien and unusual would be more interesting for a life-shaped creature.
95
Darkstrike
“A darkstrike attacks anyone within reach.”
They attack anyone. What about their master/creater? The only place that mentions that the darkstrikes are subserviant to their masters in in the Sample Encounter, which says the darkstrikes were trained.
96
Dhev-sahrs
They are described as both short and stilt-like? I thought stilt-like would mean tall.
97
Experiment Bav-rem
Wow the assimilate attack is deadly.
Through out the section on the experiment there is an interchange use of he or it when refering to the experiment.
97-98
Farspeaker
Typical characteristics
Under typical characterisitcs, the height is listed as 1 foot to 1 and ½ feet tall. But the description that starts the entry for the Farspeaker describes a bird only 6 inches tall.
In General
For all the life-shaped creatures in the typical treasure maybe include what can be recovered from them as tissue that would be valuable for reuse as life-shaping material. You do not have to be specific as to what the material is, just coins amounts for the value that can be recovered.
:lightbulb
Mutated item
Why is a remove curse spell needed to get rid of mutated life-shaped items? It is not cursed but a living creature. How about you need to kill the life-shaped item or rip it from the host causing damage.
This is a good point. A restoration and/or cure disease may be a better choice flavor wise.
Page 69
Fire Extinguisher
The fire extinguisher foam sounds too modern. I do not like it.
While foam does seems modern, sand wouldn't be good either, at least not in this case, since life-shaped tools and/or producers make organic products to answer the needs of their creators.
As such, the fire extinguisher could be said to produce an organic compound that it project away to smother fire. While the difference isn't much, telling that it does create sand is perhaps too much.
Time to pile on more comments and an excessive use of smilies. :pile:
What? Who's making excessive use of smilies?:hoppingma
I do not understand the two different DC amounts. Both appear to be to create a life-shaped creature accessory, but are two different amounts.
Me neither. It's probably some leftover from an older draft.
The fire extinguisher foam sounds too modern. I do not like it.
Agreed. Altered it a little bit.
Why is a remove curse spell needed to get rid of mutated life-shaped items? It is not cursed but a living creature. How about you need to kill the life-shaped item or rip it from the host causing damage.
Added this option as well.
Is there a Spring? Athas does not normally have the same seasons as we do.
You're right. This is what you get when researching real animals... Altered to a more Athasian name.
This seems to imply that life-shapes can be found anywhere? Or does it mean that as constructs the arrowhead geckos can survive in most environments.
It means that technically, it could be found in any environment. Personally, I picture this as a way of introducing life-shaped elements into a campaign...
Random Starting Ages Table
The table says branen are adults at 15. But the Ecology section says 2 years.
“A young bvanen develops into an adult in approximately two years.”
Yeah, well :P
It means that their bodies stop developing after that period, but they still have to go through puberty and all that stuff. Just like humans become adult at 18, but their starting ages are not the same. Anyway, I altered it a little bit to not make it so disparate.
The description says that they have fur. But the picture from Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs shows a hairless creature, very bony almost reptilian. Instead of making the climbdogs too similar to real world dogs, making them seem alien and unusual would be more interesting for a life-shaped creature.
Done.
They attack anyone. What about their master/creater? The only place that mentions that the darkstrikes are subserviant to their masters in in the Sample Encounter, which says the darkstrikes were trained.
Done
They are described as both short and stilt-like? I thought stilt-like would mean tall.
It means their legs are long when compared to their bodies.
Under typical characterisitcs, the height is listed as 1 foot to 1 and ½ feet tall. But the description that starts the entry for the Farspeaker describes a bird only 6 inches tall.
Stupid American measuring system...
Ok, it's fixed now.For all the life-shaped creatures in the typical treasure maybe include what can be recovered from them as tissue that would be valuable for reuse as life-shaping material. You do not have to be specific as to what the material is, just coins amounts for the value that can be recovered.
:lightbulb
Hmm, I like this. I like this a lot. Will do that. Thanks!
P.S.: Nothing about the artifacts?
Stupid American measuring system...
English measuring system, just because we still use it doesn't make it our fault:D
But I think it started with the Romans before that...
P.S.: Nothing about the artifacts?
No, hmm. Maybe I better go back and look at that section again. What did I miss? :P
No I did not have any comments on the artifacts. They looked good. Here are some more comments on the other life-shape creatures.
Page 100
Store Tissue
“A Small mother can hold up to 10 hp worth of life-shaped tissues.”
Should that be HD?
In General
The Cost to Shape is included for the life-shaped creatures. What about including the time to Shape as well?
Page 102 and 103
Bar-edum
One egg provides enough food for a day?
Chuhn-egils
Same for 1 quart of chuhn-egil milk
If the halflings have food producers that provide such meals on a routine basis, why do they need to hunt or gather fruits from the hanging forests. Unless it is for variety. They seem not to have a food problem. They could easily survive on the milk and eggs, especially if the bar-edum lays eggs, “with an efficiency and speed that seems unnatural.”
For all life-shaped creatures
Alignment
“_ are soley concerned with acquiring sustenance and multiplying. As most life-shaped creatures, they are always neutral.”
This statement does not fit a lot of the life-shape creatures. Most cannot reproduce, and many only gain sustenance from cam-rahn.
Page 109
The northern rhul-thaun idea is interesting.
Page 110
Knowledge (Arcana)
The check results seem to give away some information that would be difficult to come across. But 25 is the one I really do not like, since it references the First Sorcerer. No one should know who the first sorcerer was.
Page 112
Sample encounter
Under Strategies and Tactics it states that splitters were not designed for combat and fair very poorly. But in the sample encounter they are trained to attack anyone without a cosmetic graft.
Page 116-117
Ecology
This sections mentions a rain season between Hoard and Sedulous. There is a rain season? Maybe on the Jagged Cliffs? Does it have seasons different from the rest of Athas in the same way the Thundering Plains does in FFN?
Page 117
Weepers
Ecology
This section mentions giant snakes and eagles as being frequent predators of weepers. But weepers explode. Why would anything prey on them frequently?
Also in the Ecology section the mating seems a little too specific for a role-playing supplement. I would recommend taking out the mating discussion or simplifying it.
Page 118
Wild Dhev-sahr
Strategies and Tactics
“A wild dhev-sahr behaves much like a creature of its kind.”
Do you mean to say ‘much like others of its kind’?
Page 119
Yihn-eflan
The description mentions the yihn-elfan has feathers. I had pictured them more as flying reptiles with leathery wings rather than birds. I could be off, but it is how I have imaged them.
Page 120
Just before environment
“A yihn-eflan gains nourishment from cam-rahn rather than food, and does not need the attention and care of another life-shaped creatures.”
This sentence could use some work. If they need cam-rahn then they need some attention from handlers. ‘All a yihn-eflan needs is cam-rahn for nourishment, and does not need as much…’ or ‘…does not need the same amount of attention…’
Zik-chil
Here is another area that has caused a lot of disagreement. Without coming down on either side of the argument, I have a suggestion to make. Remove the zik-chil from the Life-Shaping Handbook completely. They are not necessary for the net book, and they could easily be placed in a netbook of their own along with the rest of the kreen empire.
If they do remain though here are a couple of comments on the entry.
Throughout the entry on the zik-chil they are refered to as it instead of he/ she.
Knowledge (Nature)
These checks seem too low for the information given. And result 33 should be impossible to find out. Almost no one would know about the First of Wars, or about rhulisti being turned into zik-chils.
Page 122
Table 9-1
This table seems out of place here. Should it go on a separate page. Also, I am not sure why it is table 9-1. It is in chapter 8, and there are not tables 8-#. Should it be 8-1 or do I not understand the numbering being used?
Here is another area that has caused a lot of disagreement. Without coming down on either side of the argument, I have a suggestion to make. Remove the zik-chil from the Life-Shaping Handbook completely. They are not necessary for the net book, and they could easily be placed in a netbook of their own along with the rest of the kreen empire.
Yeah, that was already done. They will show up in the upcoming book about the Crimson Savanna.
This table seems out of place here. Should it go on a separate page. Also, I am not sure why it is table 9-1. It is in chapter 8, and there are not tables 8-#. Should it be 8-1 or do I not understand the numbering being used?
Not big enough to warrant a separate page, but you're right about the numeration. Fixed.
“A Small mother can hold up to 10 hp worth of life-shaped tissues.”
Should that be HD?
No, because grafts don't have Hit Dice.
In General
The Cost to Shape is included for the life-shaped creatures. What about including the time to Shape as well?
Good thinking!
One egg provides enough food for a day?
I bet this is Chris' fault.
Same for 1 quart of chuhn-egil milk
God damn you, Chris!
If the halflings have food producers that provide such meals on a routine basis, why do they need to hunt or gather fruits from the hanging forests. Unless it is for variety. They seem not to have a food problem. They could easily survive on the milk and eggs, especially if the bar-edum lays eggs, “with an efficiency and speed that seems unnatural.”
Because of this:
The food and vegetation gleaned from the forests only supplements what is created through life-shaping. Harvesting the forests has just become necessary within the last few hundred years, ever since the rhul-thaun population outgrew their capability to produce life-shaped crops.
“_ are soley concerned with acquiring sustenance and multiplying. As most life-shaped creatures, they are always neutral.”
This statement does not fit a lot of the life-shape creatures. Most cannot reproduce, and many only gain sustenance from cam-rahn.
You are right, this should be changed for several creatures. This is what you get when you recycle text...
The check results seem to give away some information that would be difficult to come across. But 25 is the one I really do not like, since it references the First Sorcerer. No one should know who the first sorcerer was.
Damn you, Meth! Hehehe
Under Strategies and Tactics it states that splitters were not designed for combat and fair very poorly. But in the sample encounter they are trained to attack anyone without a cosmetic graft.
That's because they were trained, silly! :P
This sections mentions a rain season between Hoard and Sedulous. There is a rain season? Maybe on the Jagged Cliffs? Does it have seasons different from the rest of Athas in the same way the Thundering Plains does in FFN?
Hmm, actually I'm not sure... haven't really thought about it. But I guess their climate would be pretty peculiar.
This section mentions giant snakes and eagles as being frequent predators of weepers. But weepers explode. Why would anything prey on them frequently?
Only when they have their coal diet. Wild weepers rarely have access to it.
Also in the Ecology section the mating seems a little too specific for a role-playing supplement. I would recommend taking out the mating discussion or simplifying it.
Check out MM IV and beyond.
“A wild dhev-sahr behaves much like a creature of its kind.”
Do you mean to say ‘much like others of its kind’?
Of course! :D
The description mentions the yihn-elfan has feathers. I had pictured them more as flying reptiles with leathery wings rather than birds. I could be off, but it is how I have imaged them.
I'll double check that.
“A yihn-eflan gains nourishment from cam-rahn rather than food, and does not need the attention and care of another life-shaped creatures.”
This sentence could use some work. If they need cam-rahn then they need some attention from handlers. ‘All a yihn-eflan needs is cam-rahn for nourishment, and does not need as much…’ or ‘…does not need the same amount of attention…’
Fixed!
No one should know who the first sorcerer was.
Here I disagree.
Albeit people now should not remember Champions or their creator, the Wars, or that SKs were once the Champions in question - all because the SKs have erased that knowledge over the centuries - the one piece of info that was known for millenia by everyone of the Rebirth races was that there was a guy named Rajaat and he was called the First Sorcerer.
Knowing about Rajaat, and that he was the first of the sorcerers, reveals nothing about the SKs, Champions, or Wars...because of said reason above.
Lots of ancient texts should keep referencing Rajaat or the First Sorcerer. It's like referencing Jesus. He's everywhere.
The leap of understanding that should be near-impossible to make - read DC 50+ - should be that the Champions are the SKs. Without this piece of info, all that is learned from the past sounds like esoteric stuff from a deep, long-gone, and irrelevant past.
Here I disagree.
Albeit people now should not remember Champions or their creator, the Wars, or that SKs were once the Champions in question - all because the SKs have erased that knowledge over the centuries - the one piece of info that was known for millenia by everyone of the Rebirth races was that there was a guy named Rajaat and he was called the First Sorcerer.
Knowing about Rajaat, and that he was the first of the sorcerers, reveals nothing about the SKs, Champions, or Wars...because of said reason above.
Knowing of Rajaat doesn't do anything like that, true. But implies that the person has the time to investigate and gain that particular knowledge, something which I believe your average Athasian just wouldn't have the chance to, what with the needs of surviving day to day on the hostile world. Knowledge about history is somewhat a luxury, and one many Athasians can't afford, in my opinion.
Lots of ancient texts should keep referencing Rajaat or the First Sorcerer. It's like referencing Jesus. He's everywhere.
What ancient texts? I think the term "lots" shouldn't be used. I'd say it is more a case of "There are some rare ancient texts which may reference the First Sorcerer... but most Athasians are illiterate and wouldn't know what they are looking at anyway".
The leap of understanding that should be near-impossible to make - read DC 50+ - should be that the Champions are the SKs. Without this piece of info, all that is learned from the past sounds like esoteric stuff from a deep, long-gone, and irrelevant past.
I'd say that Rajaat's name may be known.... possibly as little more than a curse (like in the case of the Rhul-Thaun), there may be stories passed down through oral traditions, but accuracy of such things being what they are, Rajaat could literally be described in such a wide range of stories that he was a saint or a sinner (so to speak). With non-human stories being more likely to describe him as evil, while human stories maybe painting a nicer picture.
But, I'd also say that he isn't something that regularly comes up in a discussion, even remotely.
You say...
"But implies that the person has the time to investigate and gain that particular knowledge, something which I believe your average Athasian just wouldn't have the chance to, what with the needs of surviving day to day on the hostile world."
"but most Athasians are illiterate and wouldn't know what they are looking at anyway"
You seem to think I'm expecting people to know these things. I don't. I'm saying what can an Ancient History check reveal to you? It reveals Rajaat, the First Sorcerer, the SKs...but not the Champions...and IF it does reveal said Champions it doesn't mention Champions were the SKs...etc etc...here's I'm retyping what i wrote in my post.
In General
The Cost to Shape is included for the life-shaped creatures. What about including the time to Shape as well?
Time to shape uses the Craft skill rules, so it depends on your d20 roll to know much long it takes to shape an item.
Because of this:
Originally Posted by WRotJC, page 39
The food and vegetation gleaned from the forests only supplements what is created through life-shaping. Harvesting the forests has just become necessary within the last few hundred years, ever since the rhul-thaun population outgrew their capability to produce life-shaped crops.
But it seems as if the rhul-thaun have not outgrown the capability if they have Bar-edum and Chuhn-egils that are producing such nutricious meals.
Check out MM IV and beyond.
I just cannot image in what rollplaying situation I would need such information.
DM "Ok the party comes across a clearing in which you see two weepers. They proceed to..."
Players
Here I disagree.
Albeit people now should not remember Champions or their creator, the Wars, or that SKs were once the Champions in question - all because the SKs have erased that knowledge over the centuries - the one piece of info that was known for millenia by everyone of the Rebirth races was that there was a guy named Rajaat and he was called the First Sorcerer.
Knowing about Rajaat, and that he was the first of the sorcerers, reveals nothing about the SKs, Champions, or Wars...because of said reason above.
Lots of ancient texts should keep referencing Rajaat or the First Sorcerer. It's like referencing Jesus. He's everywhere.
I would agree that people would refer to a being called the First Sorcerer and even rarer another being called Rajaat. But not that everyone knows that the First Sorcerer was Rajaat. I could see mythical stories past down about the First Sorcerer, but nothing approaching the truth. and curses related to Rajaat as xlorepdarkhelm mentioned.
There is just not the written record for people to reference on Athas to know about events from more than 2 thousand years ago.
A couple of general comments.
In chapter 8 I think there is a problem with the usage of the months. I cannot verify this right now since I misplaced the merchant calendar but according to the software program The Merchant Calendar by Dave Reis-Clark there is a problem with the months in reverse order.
For instance on page 100 under Ecology.
"Mating occurs between Octanus and Hexameron..."
I think that is like saying from March until February, i.e. the whole year, instead of February to March, but am not sure about that.
Second, has to do with the wild creature entries in chapter 8. Could the chapter be better organized so that all information related to life-shaped creatures that have adapted to life in the wild be included there (mating, hunting) while the original entries contain only information related to life-shapes created by the rhul-thaun.
For instance on page 96 the first three paragraphs under Ecology of the Dhev-sahr could be moved to the wild creature entry on page 118.
Just a suggestions.
But it seems as if the rhul-thaun have not outgrown the capability if they have Bar-edum and Chuhn-egils that are producing such nutricious meals.
I think it could be mentioned that there is only a small group of producers available to feed a whole bunch of rhul-thaun, so them alone would not be enough. Since shapers alone control what they produce, I think they could focus on items that are more profitable.
You're right about the month order, Daniel, they're reversed.
Band2, soon the Athasian Emporium will go public...so I will totally love you if you give it the same treatment! :D
Ah, yeah, the Athasian Emporium.
I have heard only good things about it.
Only the best contributed to the Athasian Emporium. ;)
I hear the food section is especially well done.
Ok in all seriousness. I will take a look at the Athasian Emporium when it is done and offer any feedback I can. Depending on when it is released, it may be a few months before I can get to it.
From the last update on The Burnt World of Athas, both the Athasian Emporium and the Trade Lords update are almost 100%.
So I guess I should wait until the updated Trade Lords is released to comment on it, and I will take a look at AE as well.
Of course, I should not be the only one to provide comments.
The preliminary changes/corrections to the beta are being put together by Methvezem as we speak, and should be released to the public by the end of the week.
Cool Pen! :D I'll help comment on it if you guys want.
