Veluna - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Veluna

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
yellowdingo
Aug 07, 2007 18:26:00 This was raised in a thread on Economics but it has relevence to Greyhawk.

The Archclericy of Veluna
Alignment LG-LN
Population (250,000)
MITRIK(12,600)

The Velunan People require 20,000 square miles of forest for firewood support. There is no firewood within 150 miles of the capital, it must bring it in from the nearest source (Bramblewood, KET (LE-LN)) by river barge (5 ton cargo/10 rowers) and then move it by wagon (1 ton/1 driver).
240 miles by river barge and off-loaded at extensive barge docks (capable of docking about 1200 barges at any given time), and then moved thirty miles by wagon to MITRIK.

OPTION A: Supplying Everyone
Supplying the entire populace with firewood requires 8585 river barges (delivering at 613 barges per day) on 2 week cycles and 21, 462 wagons (picking up at 3,066 wagons/day) on weekly cycles. Total cost to Veluna is 11.25 million gp employing 215,000 workers on fortnightly labour cycles.

OPTION B: Supplying the Few
If we assume every Velunan outside the Velunan Capital is growing their own firewood, then the capital alone imports 56,250 tons per year using 433 barges (31 barges per day delivering 155 ton per day) and 1,085 wagons (155 per day) hauling it to the capital.
Employing 3415 workers and costing 1/2 million gp per year.

Trading with Evil
KET is an important trading partner of Veluna despite the differences in Alignment.
To bring Veluna to its knees, KET simply needs to cut off fuel resources and ship its firewood west instead of east.
For KET, the mass export of Firewood is worth a potential Ten million gold pieces per year

Failed States
Without the resources to heat homes, boil bathwater, cook food, forge weapons and armour, smelt metals and ores, Veluna is no longer a major regional force. Something as simple as an end to firewood exports from KET could destroy the economy of VELUNA and destabilize the region. Peasants will only take so much poverty before the uprisings begin (Even if it is a LG Archclericy-its hard to retain a LG Government if you must crush and enslave the starving peasants).

What does that mean for Veluna? How long before the Theocracy experiences a Communist uprising?
#2
xammer99
Aug 07, 2007 18:35:08 Who says they don't burn coal, peat, or some other fuel source? With the Lortmills right there rich seams of coal are far from out of the question and could easily provide Veluna the fuel it needs.
#3
vormaerin
Aug 07, 2007 23:53:08 Also, the map doesn't show every forest in Greyhawk. It shows the huge forests that are more a 1000 square miles or so. Assuming Oerth is anything like Earth, there are tons of smaller forests dotting the landscape. Forested areas of 100 square miles or so wouldn't even be the dominant terrain type in a map hex.
#4
zombiegleemax
Aug 08, 2007 0:25:32 Plus I wouldn't rule out the usage of magic in some places in Veluna (notably Mitrik), at least in major institutions like churches.

Peasants may also burn things like dung or peat if good wood is scarce.
#5
samwise
Aug 08, 2007 2:40:37 Veluna now has a population of nearly 670,000. (Check the LGG.)

The Darlene map uses the 51% rule - the terrain type depicted in a square is merely dominant terrain type there, not the only terrain there. Veluna, like every other nation, has forests dotting the landscape.

There is in fact a forest within the borders of Veluna, a small one right next to Devarnish.

Lumber resources exist in the Dapple Wood, in friendly and Lawful Good Furyondy, and the Iron Wood in friendlier and Lawful Good Verbobonc. If really needed, lumber resources also exist in the Vesve Forest in friendly and Chaotic Good Highfolk, and the Gnarley Forest in mercantile and Neutral Dyvers.

Medieval London with a population of 100,000 by 1300somehow managed to survive as the capital city of a state for many centuries without inciting economic collapse solely by their need for firewood.

Further, England had a population of 5-7 million in 1300. By your account, they would have required at least 400,000 square miles of forest to provide firewood. Since the country is only a bit over 50,000 square miles, I would suspect there is something very seriously wrong with your numbers.
France had 18-20 million people, and less than 250,000 square miles of land to find the 1.5 milion or more square miles of forest your figures suggest they needed.

Overall, I think Veluna should be completely safe from any anachronistic regime changes because Ket decides to export ultra high profit spices instead of low profit ultra bulk wood through the Fals Gap.
#6
yellowdingo
Aug 12, 2007 22:27:41
Veluna now has a population of nearly 670,000. (Check the LGG.)

The Darlene map uses the 51% rule - the terrain type depicted in a square is merely dominant terrain type there, not the only terrain there. Veluna, like every other nation, has forests dotting the landscape.

There is in fact a forest within the borders of Veluna, a small one right next to Devarnish.

Lumber resources exist in the Dapple Wood, in friendly and Lawful Good Furyondy, and the Iron Wood in friendlier and Lawful Good Verbobonc. If really needed, lumber resources also exist in the Vesve Forest in friendly and Chaotic Good Highfolk, and the Gnarley Forest in mercantile and Neutral Dyvers.

Medieval London with a population of 100,000 by 1300somehow managed to survive as the capital city of a state for many centuries without inciting economic collapse solely by their need for firewood.

Further, England had a population of 5-7 million in 1300. By your account, they would have required at least 400,000 square miles of forest to provide firewood. Since the country is only a bit over 50,000 square miles, I would suspect there is something very seriously wrong with your numbers.
France had 18-20 million people, and less than 250,000 square miles of land to find the 1.5 milion or more square miles of forest your figures suggest they needed.

Overall, I think Veluna should be completely safe from any anachronistic regime changes because Ket decides to export ultra high profit spices instead of low profit ultra bulk wood through the Fals Gap.

An interesting outlook on the topic.

1. 1300AD London was importing coal from Newcastle because of the impresive lack of firewood comming its way from the rest of england. With so little available firewood, 87% of england would have been without fuel to cook food. That is why Coal becomes important to the English economy.

2. 670,000 Velunans will devour the entire bramblewood forest in less than a hundred years of deforestation for firewood. Three puny hexes of old growth firewood in the south of Veluna are further from the capital and would cost more to get there than moving it in from south eastern KET by barge-at best they will supply Veluna City.
To suggest that they can get that by harvesting the Vesve is insane. It would cost half the Vesve its old growth forest. Unacceptable to the locals.

3. The WORLD OF GREYHAWK hexmaps are 504,000 Acres each and Veluna (defined by the limits of the Fals river, the Velverdyva river, the Lorridges, and the Lortmil mountains) has an area of 22,837.5 square miles.
To suggest that half that is farmland supporting 670,000 people is insane.
#7
samwise
Aug 13, 2007 0:04:39
An interesting outlook on the topic.

1. 1300AD London was importing coal from Newcastle because of the impresive lack of firewood comming its way from the rest of england. With so little available firewood, 87% of england would have been without fuel to cook food. That is why Coal becomes important to the English economy.

2. 670,000 Velunans will devour the entire bramblewood forest in less than a hundred years of deforestation for firewood. Three puny hexes of old growth firewood in the south of Veluna are further from the capital and would cost more to get there than moving it in from south eastern KET by barge-at best they will supply Veluna City.
To suggest that they can get that by harvesting the Vesve is insane. It would cost half the Vesve its old growth forest. Unacceptable to the locals.

Or:
1. Your figures for firewood use are wrong.
2. They are in fact using coal from the Lortmils or Yatil Mountains.
3. Both 1 and 2.

3. The WORLD OF GREYHAWK hexmaps are 504,000 Acres each and Veluna (defined by the limits of the Fals river, the Velverdyva river, the Lorridges, and the Lortmil mountains) has an area of 22,837.5 square miles.
To suggest that half that is farmland supporting 670,000 people is insane.

That is a population density of about 30 people per square mile.
That is on the "very low" side for peak 14th century Europe, and the "excessively low" side for a country that looks like Veluna. (One with a major river and a climate that permits three growing seasons.)
Even for nadir 14th century Europe, the population density should be between 20 and 60 people per square mile, depending on the general terrain and climate. Since Veluna is being defined solely as those plains, the higher end of the range is much more likely.

Also, I'm not sure how you calculated those borders, but I count between 50 and 60 hexes inside Veluna, not counting forests, hills, or mountains, for a minimum area of 39,000 square miles, and a more likely area of more than 45,000 square miles. That gives a population density less than 20 people per square mile, and most likely below 15 people per square mile.

Just what population density do you feel is appropriate for the Flanaess?
#8
OleOneEye
Aug 13, 2007 23:28:07
Also, I'm not sure how you calculated those borders, but I count between 50 and 60 hexes inside Veluna, not counting forests, hills, or mountains, for a minimum area of 39,000 square miles, and a more likely area of more than 45,000 square miles. That gives a population density less than 20 people per square mile, and most likely below 15 people per square mile.

Just what population density do you feel is appropriate for the Flanaess?

That is the funny thing about the Darlene Map. I count Veluna at about 113 hexes, some 88,000 square miles, and about 6 humans per square mile. (It should be noted that I measure hexes incorrectly at 30 miles from flat side to flat side rather than corner to corner.) Overall population density is rather misleading, though. More fertile hexes have very high densities while others have little more than rocky fields supporting nomadic Flan shepherds. Lots of unconquered wilderness in Veluna as I see it.
#9
samwise
Aug 13, 2007 23:42:48
That is the funny thing about the Darlene Map. I count Veluna at about 113 hexes, some 88,000 square miles, and about 6 humans per square mile. (It should be noted that I measure hexes incorrectly at 30 miles from flat side to flat side rather than corner to corner.) Overall population density is rather misleading, though. More fertile hexes have very high densities while others have little more than rocky fields supporting nomadic Flan shepherds. Lots of unconquered wilderness in Veluna as I see it.

I am pretty sure the hexes are 30 miles side to side, not vertice to vertice. That makes each 780 square miles. (Or thereabouts.)
I'm not sure I'd get 113 hexes, but yeah, the population density is danged low, and very easily suppored with deforesting the entire Flanaess.
#10
chatdemon
Aug 14, 2007 1:01:48
OPTION B: Supplying the Few
If we assume every Velunan outside the Velunan Capital is growing their own firewood, then the capital alone imports 56,250 tons per year using 433 barges (31 barges per day delivering 155 ton per day) and 1,085 wagons (155 per day) hauling it to the capital.
Employing 3415 workers and costing 1/2 million gp per year.

I finally looked at this in detail.

4.5 tons (give or take) of firewood person, per year? That is absolutely absurd. 10,000 pounds per year, ridiculous.

Veluna isn't the snowbound northland. 5 pounds of wood per day should fill the needs of an entire family, to cook a couple meals and boil some water. In a temperate climate, there's no need to have a fire burning 24/7. At your rate, a family of 5 uses 150 pounds per day. Outrageous.
#11
extempus
Aug 14, 2007 2:00:05
I am pretty sure the hexes are 30 miles side to side, not vertice to vertice. That makes each 780 square miles. (Or thereabouts.)

Pretty close, lol. I calculate a 30 mile hex contains 779.4229 square miles (rounded to 4 decimal places). It's been a while since I did trigonometry, I think I got right...
#12
extempus
Aug 14, 2007 2:00:39 Double post... arghh!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 yellowdingo Aug 07, 2007 18:26:00	This was raised in a thread on Economics but it has relevence to Greyhawk. The Archclericy of Veluna Alignment LG-LN Population (250,000) MITRIK(12,600) The Velunan People require 20,000 square miles of forest for firewood support. There is no firewood within 150 miles of the capital, it must bring it in from the nearest source (Bramblewood, KET (LE-LN)) by river barge (5 ton cargo/10 rowers) and then move it by wagon (1 ton/1 driver). 240 miles by river barge and off-loaded at extensive barge docks (capable of docking about 1200 barges at any given time), and then moved thirty miles by wagon to MITRIK. OPTION A: Supplying Everyone Supplying the entire populace with firewood requires 8585 river barges (delivering at 613 barges per day) on 2 week cycles and 21, 462 wagons (picking up at 3,066 wagons/day) on weekly cycles. Total cost to Veluna is 11.25 million gp employing 215,000 workers on fortnightly labour cycles. OPTION B: Supplying the Few If we assume every Velunan outside the Velunan Capital is growing their own firewood, then the capital alone imports 56,250 tons per year using 433 barges (31 barges per day delivering 155 ton per day) and 1,085 wagons (155 per day) hauling it to the capital. Employing 3415 workers and costing 1/2 million gp per year. Trading with Evil KET is an important trading partner of Veluna despite the differences in Alignment. To bring Veluna to its knees, KET simply needs to cut off fuel resources and ship its firewood west instead of east. For KET, the mass export of Firewood is worth a potential Ten million gold pieces per year Failed States Without the resources to heat homes, boil bathwater, cook food, forge weapons and armour, smelt metals and ores, Veluna is no longer a major regional force. Something as simple as an end to firewood exports from KET could destroy the economy of VELUNA and destabilize the region. Peasants will only take so much poverty before the uprisings begin (Even if it is a LG Archclericy-its hard to retain a LG Government if you must crush and enslave the starving peasants). What does that mean for Veluna? How long before the Theocracy experiences a Communist uprising?
#2 xammer99 Aug 07, 2007 18:35:08	Who says they don't burn coal, peat, or some other fuel source? With the Lortmills right there rich seams of coal are far from out of the question and could easily provide Veluna the fuel it needs.
#3 vormaerin Aug 07, 2007 23:53:08	Also, the map doesn't show every forest in Greyhawk. It shows the huge forests that are more a 1000 square miles or so. Assuming Oerth is anything like Earth, there are tons of smaller forests dotting the landscape. Forested areas of 100 square miles or so wouldn't even be the dominant terrain type in a map hex.
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 08, 2007 0:25:32	Plus I wouldn't rule out the usage of magic in some places in Veluna (notably Mitrik), at least in major institutions like churches. Peasants may also burn things like dung or peat if good wood is scarce.
#5 samwise Aug 08, 2007 2:40:37	Veluna now has a population of nearly 670,000. (Check the LGG.) The Darlene map uses the 51% rule - the terrain type depicted in a square is merely dominant terrain type there, not the only terrain there. Veluna, like every other nation, has forests dotting the landscape. There is in fact a forest within the borders of Veluna, a small one right next to Devarnish. Lumber resources exist in the Dapple Wood, in friendly and Lawful Good Furyondy, and the Iron Wood in friendlier and Lawful Good Verbobonc. If really needed, lumber resources also exist in the Vesve Forest in friendly and Chaotic Good Highfolk, and the Gnarley Forest in mercantile and Neutral Dyvers. Medieval London with a population of 100,000 by 1300somehow managed to survive as the capital city of a state for many centuries without inciting economic collapse solely by their need for firewood. Further, England had a population of 5-7 million in 1300. By your account, they would have required at least 400,000 square miles of forest to provide firewood. Since the country is only a bit over 50,000 square miles, I would suspect there is something very seriously wrong with your numbers. France had 18-20 million people, and less than 250,000 square miles of land to find the 1.5 milion or more square miles of forest your figures suggest they needed. Overall, I think Veluna should be completely safe from any anachronistic regime changes because Ket decides to export ultra high profit spices instead of low profit ultra bulk wood through the Fals Gap.
#6 yellowdingo Aug 12, 2007 22:27:41	Veluna now has a population of nearly 670,000. (Check the LGG.) The Darlene map uses the 51% rule - the terrain type depicted in a square is merely dominant terrain type there, not the only terrain there. Veluna, like every other nation, has forests dotting the landscape. There is in fact a forest within the borders of Veluna, a small one right next to Devarnish. Lumber resources exist in the Dapple Wood, in friendly and Lawful Good Furyondy, and the Iron Wood in friendlier and Lawful Good Verbobonc. If really needed, lumber resources also exist in the Vesve Forest in friendly and Chaotic Good Highfolk, and the Gnarley Forest in mercantile and Neutral Dyvers. Medieval London with a population of 100,000 by 1300somehow managed to survive as the capital city of a state for many centuries without inciting economic collapse solely by their need for firewood. Further, England had a population of 5-7 million in 1300. By your account, they would have required at least 400,000 square miles of forest to provide firewood. Since the country is only a bit over 50,000 square miles, I would suspect there is something very seriously wrong with your numbers. France had 18-20 million people, and less than 250,000 square miles of land to find the 1.5 milion or more square miles of forest your figures suggest they needed. Overall, I think Veluna should be completely safe from any anachronistic regime changes because Ket decides to export ultra high profit spices instead of low profit ultra bulk wood through the Fals Gap. An interesting outlook on the topic. 1. 1300AD London was importing coal from Newcastle because of the impresive lack of firewood comming its way from the rest of england. With so little available firewood, 87% of england would have been without fuel to cook food. That is why Coal becomes important to the English economy. 2. 670,000 Velunans will devour the entire bramblewood forest in less than a hundred years of deforestation for firewood. Three puny hexes of old growth firewood in the south of Veluna are further from the capital and would cost more to get there than moving it in from south eastern KET by barge-at best they will supply Veluna City. To suggest that they can get that by harvesting the Vesve is insane. It would cost half the Vesve its old growth forest. Unacceptable to the locals. 3. The WORLD OF GREYHAWK hexmaps are 504,000 Acres each and Veluna (defined by the limits of the Fals river, the Velverdyva river, the Lorridges, and the Lortmil mountains) has an area of 22,837.5 square miles. To suggest that half that is farmland supporting 670,000 people is insane.
#7 samwise Aug 13, 2007 0:04:39	An interesting outlook on the topic. 1. 1300AD London was importing coal from Newcastle because of the impresive lack of firewood comming its way from the rest of england. With so little available firewood, 87% of england would have been without fuel to cook food. That is why Coal becomes important to the English economy. 2. 670,000 Velunans will devour the entire bramblewood forest in less than a hundred years of deforestation for firewood. Three puny hexes of old growth firewood in the south of Veluna are further from the capital and would cost more to get there than moving it in from south eastern KET by barge-at best they will supply Veluna City. To suggest that they can get that by harvesting the Vesve is insane. It would cost half the Vesve its old growth forest. Unacceptable to the locals. Or: 1. Your figures for firewood use are wrong. 2. They are in fact using coal from the Lortmils or Yatil Mountains. 3. Both 1 and 2. 3. The WORLD OF GREYHAWK hexmaps are 504,000 Acres each and Veluna (defined by the limits of the Fals river, the Velverdyva river, the Lorridges, and the Lortmil mountains) has an area of 22,837.5 square miles. To suggest that half that is farmland supporting 670,000 people is insane. That is a population density of about 30 people per square mile. That is on the "very low" side for peak 14th century Europe, and the "excessively low" side for a country that looks like Veluna. (One with a major river and a climate that permits three growing seasons.) Even for nadir 14th century Europe, the population density should be between 20 and 60 people per square mile, depending on the general terrain and climate. Since Veluna is being defined solely as those plains, the higher end of the range is much more likely. Also, I'm not sure how you calculated those borders, but I count between 50 and 60 hexes inside Veluna, not counting forests, hills, or mountains, for a minimum area of 39,000 square miles, and a more likely area of more than 45,000 square miles. That gives a population density less than 20 people per square mile, and most likely below 15 people per square mile. Just what population density do you feel is appropriate for the Flanaess?
#8 OleOneEye Aug 13, 2007 23:28:07	Also, I'm not sure how you calculated those borders, but I count between 50 and 60 hexes inside Veluna, not counting forests, hills, or mountains, for a minimum area of 39,000 square miles, and a more likely area of more than 45,000 square miles. That gives a population density less than 20 people per square mile, and most likely below 15 people per square mile. Just what population density do you feel is appropriate for the Flanaess? That is the funny thing about the Darlene Map. I count Veluna at about 113 hexes, some 88,000 square miles, and about 6 humans per square mile. (It should be noted that I measure hexes incorrectly at 30 miles from flat side to flat side rather than corner to corner.) Overall population density is rather misleading, though. More fertile hexes have very high densities while others have little more than rocky fields supporting nomadic Flan shepherds. Lots of unconquered wilderness in Veluna as I see it.
#9 samwise Aug 13, 2007 23:42:48	That is the funny thing about the Darlene Map. I count Veluna at about 113 hexes, some 88,000 square miles, and about 6 humans per square mile. (It should be noted that I measure hexes incorrectly at 30 miles from flat side to flat side rather than corner to corner.) Overall population density is rather misleading, though. More fertile hexes have very high densities while others have little more than rocky fields supporting nomadic Flan shepherds. Lots of unconquered wilderness in Veluna as I see it. I am pretty sure the hexes are 30 miles side to side, not vertice to vertice. That makes each 780 square miles. (Or thereabouts.) I'm not sure I'd get 113 hexes, but yeah, the population density is danged low, and very easily suppored with deforesting the entire Flanaess.
#10 chatdemon Aug 14, 2007 1:01:48	OPTION B: Supplying the Few If we assume every Velunan outside the Velunan Capital is growing their own firewood, then the capital alone imports 56,250 tons per year using 433 barges (31 barges per day delivering 155 ton per day) and 1,085 wagons (155 per day) hauling it to the capital. Employing 3415 workers and costing 1/2 million gp per year. I finally looked at this in detail. 4.5 tons (give or take) of firewood person, per year? That is absolutely absurd. 10,000 pounds per year, ridiculous. Veluna isn't the snowbound northland. 5 pounds of wood per day should fill the needs of an entire family, to cook a couple meals and boil some water. In a temperate climate, there's no need to have a fire burning 24/7. At your rate, a family of 5 uses 150 pounds per day. Outrageous.
#11 extempus Aug 14, 2007 2:00:05	I am pretty sure the hexes are 30 miles side to side, not vertice to vertice. That makes each 780 square miles. (Or thereabouts.) Pretty close, lol. I calculate a 30 mile hex contains 779.4229 square miles (rounded to 4 decimal places). It's been a while since I did trigonometry, I think I got right...
#12 extempus Aug 14, 2007 2:00:39	Double post... arghh!