Some questions i ask myself regarding Dark Sun.
1. Do you think there's still a chance for Dark Sun being re-edited?
2. Would you like to see it re-edited ??
I want to see some answers before i give my own opinion...
i would suspect it will be eberron after FR (forgotten realms having explicitly landed the first spot) followed by either greyhawk or dragonlance, followed by whichever of those two doesn't make third. after that, it's anyone's guess, imo. who knows, maybe it'll be time for 4.5e
2.: Yes!
Chance of being re-edited, in whatever way??? Let's say I am really sure, IF WotC would ever get this idea, it would be a date many years from now. And I think they really appreciate our work.
if they're going to bring back 1 campaign setting per year, they're going to have to either start dipping into some of the settings they've allowed to fall by the wayside or they're going to have a very short 4th edition...
i would suspect it will be eberron after FR (forgotten realms having explicitly landed the first spot) followed by either greyhawk or dragonlance, followed by whichever of those two doesn't make third. after that, it's anyone's guess, imo. who knows, maybe it'll be time for 4.5e
It's a good thing WotC_Scott and James Wyatt have said there won't be any 4.5 ed or that probably would have happened.
Here's to Dark Sun by 2009!
I would definitely not like to see it re-edited with bearded dwarves, metal given out like candy, good Paladins and the latest explanation what the Acolyte of the Skin's role on Athas is.
IMO, the Paladin's role in Dark Sun is handled by the Druid, though in a more neutral "nature's vengeance" sorta way.
It's a good thing WotC_Scott and James Wyatt have said there won't be any 4.5 ed or that probably would have happened.
They also said that WotC weren't working on 4e and that it was "a long way off" and that all major announcements for D&D would be made at Winter Fantasy from now on. It's just business - doesn't mean they have to be honest about what they're doing.
I wanna know if Burnt World of Athas are gonna update to DS4e. They're pretty much an irrelavancy if they don't - everyone will switch over to 4e sooner or later, even if they claim that they won't. Well, apart from the usual bunch of bitter grognards who insist on playing defunct editions.
hey're pretty much an irrelavancy if they don't - everyone will switch over to 4e sooner or later, even if they claim that they won't. Well, apart from the usual bunch of bitter grognards who insist on playing defunct editions.
Yes, we will do an update. No worries there.
Yes, we will do an update. No worries there.
OK. So what does that mean for your current projects? Wasn't there supposed to be another release of your Core Rules or something? And all those updates that keep getting promised? Are you gonna leave those be now to save on redundant work for the next nine months? And do WotC give you any heads-up about what to expect for 4e, so you get planning (on account of being the official website and all?)
Hopefully, "templars" will be shown as clerics, who have the bureaucratic powers, and those added as a side section
Gladitors will hopefully just be a profession, as it always should have been. And "Barbarians" instead changed to "berserkers", brute/barbarian/berserker...it's a different style of a melee combatant and attitude, not a social convention, for goodness sake!
With, from what I can see, more feats for everyone in 4th ed, this I hope, will allow more feats for those who's characters are "gladiators", of any class, to utilize the exotic weapons of Athas?
2008-4th ed, Forgotten Realms
2009 Eberron
2010 2nd ed reprint?
Apparently each year they wil reprnt a 2nd ed setting. Darksun may not be the 1st one they reprint. Darksun and Planescape seem to be the 2 most popular settings that would be viable to reprint first.
Dragonlance is another one but its always been a popular world to read about very few people actually like gaming there. Personally I could happily see Templars folded into the Cleric class and Gladiators eliminated.
For example, they could have a single "Rogue" class, with Talent trees like Bard, Thief & Assassin.
A "Noble" class with Trader, etc...
I don't know about having Templars and Clerics lumped in, because with the talent trees a player could easily grab elements for both, and that would mix things up an awful lot... However, putting Templar talents into the Noble class could work...
Anyway, Dark Sun will continue to go on as long as people play it.
With races gaining level equivilant powers they can be better balanced with out any oddness like level adjustment and such.
With the end of equipment dependency we can get back to the proper "half naked savage" look of DS.
Jack
Personally I could happily see Templars folded into the Cleric class and Gladiators eliminated.
I dont. Personnaly they are part of the settings, they are integrated enough to create them a special class. More, if I would be at athas.org head, I would bring back the Trader class which is an important part of the setting with the Merchant Houses.
I would think from what we've heard regarding how 4th is going to hadle both races and magic items it might actually end up being a better fit for DS then 3.x ever was.
Jack, or anyone else that knows about it, could you point to me where you've seen the reference to 4e magic items so I can read it myself. Thanks a lot for your time.
Jack, or anyone else that knows about it, could you point to me where you've seen the reference to 4e magic items so I can read it myself. Thanks a lot for your time.
I'm not sure about the magic items themselves, but one of the things mentioned in the GenCon videos is that the developers were trying to steer away from the fact that at higher levels, most (if not all) characters were defined more by their magic items than they were by their race and class choices.
DS without those two classes is like removing Preservers and Defilers. wouldnt be the same awesome setting.
Templars gaining power from their SK is such a great idea. i love the "Mortal Dragon Gods" of athas.
i hope they do release something for 4e DS. if they do THEN and only then would i pick up the 4e core rule books. aside from a 4e DS im converting all 4e material to 3.5 (future Dragonlance and other settings) and i will adapt new rules i enjoy to 3.5. if i went 4e asap my player would quit on me, they are only now beginning to learn 3.5. lol
and since they wont be making a 4.5 i might wait for 5e before i upgrade. i want atleast 10 yrs of play from my 3.5 collection. i can reverse engineer any new material i get for DS and DL and all the others.
Lastard
i love the Templar and Gladiator classes, they are aton of fun. they are acouple of the most unique classes for darksun. i dont know how other people have played and GM'd but gladiator games were a huge part of the gaming expeariance and templars are the focus for any new players hatred. i'v had so much fun using templars to bash players, and as XP fodder for my players.
DS without those two classes is like removing Preservers and Defilers. wouldnt be the same awesome setting.
Nobody's talking about removing them as archetypes, we're just discussing the idea that those archetypes are already achievable by using other classes. Gladiators are just arena-focused fighters, and Templars are basically Clerics devoted to a Sorcerer King instead of an element. Yes, the archetype is different, but you don't need a whole new class for every possible archetype - that's D&D's biggest flaw IMO.
Nobody's talking about removing them as archetypes, we're just discussing the idea that those archetypes are already achievable by using other classes. Gladiators are just arena-focused fighters, and Templars are basically Clerics devoted to a Sorcerer King instead of an element. Yes, the archetype is different, but you don't need a whole new class for every possible archetype - that's D&D's biggest flaw IMO.
I agree with this alot. Kinda worked in 2nd ed where they eliminated classes form Athas but now theres more core classes and alot more in splatbooks.
I agree with this alot. Kinda worked in 2nd ed where they eliminated classes form Athas but now theres more core classes and alot more in splatbooks.
I'm glad 4e is coming out, now D&D can have the kind of flexibility I've always wished there was in 3.0/3.5!
If SW Saga is any indication, then it's gonna work brilliantly for settings like DS or even not so high-fantasy settings like the Shannara books.
and the amount of core classes and PRC's. i just think each class needs to be made a bit more unique.
i do miss the days of a single Survival check..
For example: the Rogue, Bard and Trader should all be parts of the same class, with various talent trees for each of the archetypes.
the problem I can see with the tree character class system is it will be hard for a player to stick to that character class principle. I know as a DM I have a hand in all my players choices so they make the ones that fit with their character and I keep an eye on balance and such. But (and I have never player star wars where the class tree is there so sry if I am wrong) I can definatly see a player sneaking in something that would be nice to have or be able to do while not normally in line with that class. I hope they do move away from equipment and move more towards class and race tho. As I have said in other posts that I hope the system will not be geared to higher lvl characters as 3.5 seems to be.
That's the whole point of the new class system. In 3.5, I feel so confined and restricted in my character flexibility that I almost don't want to play. With d20 Modern, Saga, and soon 4e, you'll be able to make a character who can learn many things instead of having a set label. Seriously, who do you know who goes around addressing themselves under a single archetype label?
If you want new history and story, look at this, and this,and this,and this,and this,and this,and this.
If you want hard cover, go bind them
Not to discredit those sources (I've seen them) but I was looking for something more official and hard cover. Call me old school. lol
Those are definitely official. Athas.org, like other fansites for other settings, was given license by Wizards of the Coast to publish new material for Dark Sun (there is some of the old material which can't be republished, like the old setting/flavor material), but the rules can be updated to D&D 3 (now D&D 3.5, and I'd assume D&D 4) edition, and new material can be added. Two of the books that were never finished/released by TSR, were handed to Athas.org to complete (Secrets of the Deadlands, and Dregoth Ascending).
They might not be "hard-bound" or whatever (not that there really was hard-bound books for Dark Sun anyway, everything was paperback if memory serves), but they are legitimate, and completely official Dark Sun releases, approved by Wizards.
1. Using the Tablelands of Tyr map (2e boxset map) where are the deadlands. where are the trembling lands.?
if they are shown beyond the boarders of the map can someone list the direction to them?
Like 500 miles northwest of walis, or 300 miles south east of draj. like that. thanks.
everything that i have is paperback, skinny accessory books except Dragon Kings hardbackbook.
i have not noticed how 3.5 is meant for higher levels. do you mean all the prestige classes or what?
i think 3.5 gives players a bit more freedom in crafting their characters with the ability to multiclass as many
classes as you like. Prestige classes are special and should not be obtainable unless the players earn the prestige. i do not like handing out special classes and prestige classes are special.
if they are shown beyond the boarders of the map can someone list the direction to them?
You should check out dasch's excellent maps at Dsrising.net
They are very similar to the 2e maps, but with all(most) the places you'll need from latter releases.
they are very beautiful, very well done! Athas is so much larger With these maps!
Question, which map features the Trembling plains? Tyr region or Jagged cliffs, i scanned them but cant find it. i found the Deadlands, NICE!
thanks alot again!:D
PS: damn fine Maps!
they are on the Jagged Cliffs maps, on the Silt Sea.
I'v been searching but can't seem to find it. is it not in red lettering? or maybe it just isnt listed on the map?
i don't see anything in the sea of silt or on the boarder. Ah well, thanks anyways! still an awesome map!
A full map of the Trembling Plains will be on Lost Cities of the Trembling Plains, a future product.
I look forward to it! you guys do a really great job putting out quality content! Because of Athas.org not only can i begin my DS games anew but the known world has grown MUCH larger! so thanks!
I understand. Just to let you know, those are all official though.
If you want hard cover, go bind them
There's a difference in being a recognized source for fan updates and all that and being a licensed and published product. I don't want to bind it myself, the point is BRINGING it back via wizards.
I have to add how truely happy I am that others love Athas as much as i do! I thought athas was dead for sure so i am very pleased with everyone at Athas.org for their awesome effort and passion! Thank you!
I am also very hungry for info into the Deadlands, these thinking undead rulers sound freaking sweet!
As soon as i possibly can i am going to look into getting the other 2e material for Darksun. I love dragonlance but there is nothing like athas!:evillaugh
There's a difference in being a recognized source for fan updates and all that and being a licensed and published product. I don't want to bind it myself, the point is BRINGING it back via wizards.
The point is that it IS a licensed and publish product. From Wizards. Just as you can get pdf's of new releases from Wizards. I understand not having the book in hand, going old school style, but athas.org is official, not just a fan update.
There's a difference in being a recognized source for fan updates and all that and being a licensed and published product. I don't want to bind it myself, the point is BRINGING it back via wizards.
Sorry, but your point of distinction is flawed. It is a licensed and published product. It just is not sent to the printers. Wizards has licensed Athas.org to publish new material for Dark Sun. How much more clear can it be made for you? I can understand the desire for having a book printed out which you can carry with you... but that's possible with Athas.org's materials and your own printer (or taking i to a copy/printing store). Or you can keep it on the computer. That's an option you can make on your own. But just because there is no physical book you can go buy at a store somewhere, doesn't mean that Athas.org's material isn't licensed products.
Question!
when you all created the Dregoth campaign did you have a basic plot put forth by wotc and fill in the gaps with your own ideas, or did you create it all from scratch.
Either way awesome adventure! i never played the second or third one but i played a modded version of the first, that was the last offical material my old dm had. after chapter 1 it was all fandom. i look forward to DM'ing the offical campaign in all its completed glory for my groups!
:evillaugh 
Thats really cool. canon never really matter to me much, but it is a real treat to know the info is canon just incase.
Question!
when you all created the Dregoth campaign did you have a basic plot put forth by wotc and fill in the gaps with your own ideas, or did you create it all from scratch.
Either way awesome adventure! i never played the second or third one but i played a modded version of the first, that was the last offical material my old dm had. after chapter 1 it was all fandom. i look forward to DM'ing the offical campaign in all its completed glory for my groups!
Dregoth Ascending was material which was slated for release by TSR, but got tangled up in editing (as in, never made it to editing). When Athas.org was given sanction by Wizards to continue development of Dark Sun, they handed us what they had on Dregoth Ascending, as well as on Secrets of the Deadlands (if you look at the Dark Sun TSR publication numbers, there is a gap of two numbers in them, one was for Dregoth Ascending, the other was for Secrets of the Deadlands).
Jon would know more about what was what, since (I think) that was his baby.
EDIT: damn, got beat to the punch
slowly. A lot of the stuff requires epic rules to be done first.
Nice! I can't wait to see what ya do with the Deadlords!
SotL freakin rocks, had to convert it myself. I will not share details, however. All I will say is that when it is FINALLY released (I've be makes Ravenloft look like a nice place to send the kids for summer camp. Szass Tam would crap his pants and cry for his mommy, and Lord Soth looks like a little punk compared to the denizens who rule their dark fiefs in those horrid Obsidian plains.
Not to one up you but have you heard of Larloch or Ioulaum?
SotL freakin rocks, had to convert it myself. I will not share details, however. All I will say is that when it is FINALLY released (I've be makes Ravenloft look like a nice place to send the kids for summer camp. Szass Tam would crap his pants and cry for his mommy, and Lord Soth looks like a little punk compared to the denizens who rule their dark fiefs in those horrid Obsidian plains.
Hey now Lord Soth was badass for just being a Deathknight. he wasnt the strongest undead in Krynn either. Fistandantilus and Maladar could both destroy Soth in the blink of an eye.Both are far more evil than soth ever was.
I was pretty certain that Fistandantilus wasn't undead.
Fistandantilus was a Blackrobed wizard turned renegade who sometimes in the past created his Phylacerties. During the Dwarfgate wars he was killed in an explosion that destroyed Skullcap. Later in the future (war of the lance) Raistlin Majere
made a pact with a lich to aid in passing his test of high sorcery, the lich is fistandantilus.
The novel, Fistandantilus Reborn is a story about two phylacerties both housing a fragment of Fists dark soul. The Skull and the Silver Mirror.
Fistandantilus is also in Tanis the Shadowyears, in the plane of the dead. (way station of the dead)
As for Ioulaum, I'm not so sure. I don't know how much of a chance a weird undead-joined-with-Elder-Brain mage would have against formidible foes like Gretch and Qwirth.
i can picture a Mummy-Lord styled undead lord, but i don't know how it would fit with being killed by obsidian, maybe he was dead already and mummified alive as punishment and the obsidian brough him into undeath. no clue how souls work in DS.
deathknights probably wouldnt work at all unless their was some elemental paladin in the blue/green age working for the sotl and somehow broke their trust and died, returning as an undead abomination to be forever tormented until he righted the wrong. (just doesnt sit well with me)
i can picture an undead ruler whos nothing but obsidian covered bones. Obsidian skeleton type.
i think a lich would work. not a far stretch.
Ghoul lord/zombie lord type. Maybe, something like the Salt Zombie in Ivory triangle, only dealing with obsidian.
a spirit or wraithlord tastes great, seems like it would fit rather well.
a dwarven banshee ruler would be neat. other athasian undead i forget would probably fit better than my before listings.
maybe a nature bender or elemental cleric blended with undead to make a unique athasian undead....
sorry i am fiending for deadlands info.:D
Fistandantilus was a Blackrobed wizard turned renegade who sometimes in the past created his Phylacerties. During the Dwarfgate wars he was killed in an explosion that destroyed Skullcap. Later in the future (war of the lance) Raistlin Majere
made a pact with a lich to aid in passing his test of high sorcery, the lich is fistandantilus.
The novel, Fistandantilus Reborn is a story about two phylacerties both housing a fragment of Fists dark soul. The Skull and the Silver Mirror.
Fistandantilus is also in Tanis the Shadowyears, in the plane of the dead. (way station of the dead)
yeah, I mostly remember the story. forgot he was a Lich though :P
Sorry, but your point of distinction is flawed. It is a licensed and published product. It just is not sent to the printers. Wizards has licensed Athas.org to publish new material for Dark Sun. How much more clear can it be made for you? I can understand the desire for having a book printed out which you can carry with you... but that's possible with Athas.org's materials and your own printer (or taking i to a copy/printing store). Or you can keep it on the computer. That's an option you can make on your own. But just because there is no physical book you can go buy at a store somewhere, doesn't mean that Athas.org's material isn't licensed products.
There is a difference between allowing someone the rights and making it an officail product. When WotC makes something it does it with the big picture in mind, and since the people at athas.org are not there they can not see the big picture. For example if WotC was going to do Dark Sun, I would expect to see Soul Knives, as it makes sense that a world with little metal and a lot of psionics would have them. I also would not expect to see two versions of Half-giants, or two versions that are not distinctly different. I think they are doing a good job, but to say they can do the same sort of things as WotC is unrealistic.
Edit: I would not mind a book that was all fluff and NPCs, sort of like a Grand Tour of Athas, if only to tide people over. Maybe a jump in the timeline a bit as well.
There is a difference between allowing someone the rights and making it an officail product. When WotC makes something it does it with the big picture in mind, and since the people at athas.org are not there they can not see the big picture. For example if WotC was going to do Dark Sun, I would expect to see Soul Knives, as it makes sense that a world with little metal and a lot of psionics would have them. I also would not expect to see two versions of Half-giants, or two versions that are not distinctly different. I think they are doing a good job, but to say they can do the same sort of things as WotC is unrealistic.
Edit: I would not mind a book that was all fluff and NPCs, sort of like a Grand Tour of Athas, if only to tide people over. Maybe a jump in the timeline a bit as well.
Athas.org doesn't currently include the Soulknife because of balancing concerns. Not to say it will always be gone, just that it was pulled for that, and the class didn't exist at all in the 2E material, Athas.org was already finalizing the list of playable classes when the Expanded Psionic Handbook came out.
For the Half-Giants -- WotC developed and released the Half-Giant exclusively and independently from Athas.org, which is fine. We already had a race which had been playtested quite a bit, and fit with our ideas. There were a number of little things which WotC put out which conflicted with the materials Athas.org did. It isn't a sign of who has their eye on the big picture or not -- Athas.org is able to make official Dark Sun material, and WotC is under no obligation to keep what they develop in sync with Athas.org, is all. which is also, coincidentally, why there are two completely contradictory and different "DS3" versions -- the one produced by Athas.org, and the few supplements put out by Paizo in the Dragon and Dungeon magazines.
As much as you may not want to accept it, acknowledge it, or try to nitpick at it, Athas.org does make official Dark Sun material for 3.5e D&D, period. There is no if's, and's, or but's about that. WotC gave the go-ahead for Athas.org to do so, and even handed us some previously unreleased/uncompleted Dark Sun material that TSR had left over, one of which is the Dregoth Ascending adventure. Athas.org is the Official Fansite of Dark Sun, and is licensed/authorized to make official Dark Sun material.
When it comes to fluff/setting material, Athas.org is not authorized to simply republish the materials already available in the 2e books. We are authorized to update the rules and release them for 3.5e, however. So... for the main material, Athas.org is a bit thin on setting/story. We *could* rewrite it all, from scratch, with completely new authors, and put it in the material, but the consensus was that people would prefer new products, rather than continually rehashing the same old setting material that can easily be picked up for a mere $5 per book from places like RPGNow (I think that's the one which has Dark Sun books/PDFs).
That said, the new material we're putting out, does have a lot of flavor/setting information in it. And with 4e around the corner, we might be pulling more into doing a lot more of the setting/flavor/fluff/(whatever) and scaling back the rules for a bit.
Sorry, but your point of distinction is flawed. It is a licensed and published product. It just is not sent to the printers. Wizards has licensed Athas.org to publish new material for Dark Sun. How much more clear can it be made for you? I can understand the desire for having a book printed out which you can carry with you... but that's possible with Athas.org's materials and your own printer (or taking i to a copy/printing store). Or you can keep it on the computer. That's an option you can make on your own. But just because there is no physical book you can go buy at a store somewhere, doesn't mean that Athas.org's material isn't licensed products.
This is what is posted on the web site itself:
This site is recognized by WotC as the Official Dark Sun site on the internet. Content created on the official website is considered to be derivative work (as it is based on the intellectual property owned by Wizards of the Coast). This means that fan-created add-ons (such as new net books, adventures, etc.) are jointly owned by both Wizards of the Coast and the creator; neither can do anything outside the official website without the permission of the other.
As it clearly states, the SITE itself is considered the official dark sun site on the internet. However, if you read closer it clearly states that the content is a derivative work, it is basically fan-created add-ons and 2e/3e conversions. It wasn't created by wizards/tsr/etc therefore in my opinion it isn't the 'Original' Dark Sun. Everything is open to translation and interpretation. The point being I'm not hoping for more fan translations here, I am casting in my hope to see the 'original material' back in the game. That being said they could just take what's out there and slap it into a book and convert it to 4e if they're lazy about it.
When it comes to fluff/setting material, Athas.org is not authorized to simply republish the materials already available in the 2e books. We are authorized to update the rules and release them for 3.5e, however. So... for the main material, Athas.org is a bit thin on setting/story. We *could* rewrite it all, from scratch, with completely new authors, and put it in the material, but the consensus was that people would prefer new products, rather than continually rehashing the same old setting material that can easily be picked up for a mere $5 per book from places like RPGNow (I think that's the one which has Dark Sun books/PDFs).
That said, the new material we're putting out, does have a lot of flavor/setting information in it. And with 4e around the corner, we might be pulling more into doing a lot more of the setting/flavor/fluff/(whatever) and scaling back the rules for a bit.
That is, sort of, basically, somewhat, the point I was trying to get across. By the way I'm not trying to start a flaming/name calling/backstabbing/dirty dealing war here, I was just trying to clarify what I was saying without someone trying to slap my lips off and tell me I'm wrong. No name calling here ether.
The point of the exercise is I don't want 'fan translations' no matter how official they are. I'm saying that I would like to sink some money into seeing regular work and updates on a setting that I feel was grossly underappreciated. Don't get me wrong I've used the athas.org stuff and it's good. It actually eliminated about a month worth of work I had been dropping into the setting. However, call me an aesthetic ***** but I like hard covers with pretty pictures and stuff. That would be the intellect debuff working I suppose.
(Since my word of choice was censored, make that aesthetic prostitute.)
I personally am far more interested in work developed by people who are authentically interested and passionate about the setting, than some paid set of drones working on the setting because that's what their job requires of them. But that's just me.
Nobody's talking about removing them as archetypes, we're just discussing the idea that those archetypes are already achievable by using other classes. Gladiators are just arena-focused fighters, and Templars are basically Clerics devoted to a Sorcerer King instead of an element. Yes, the archetype is different, but you don't need a whole new class for every possible archetype - that's D&D's biggest flaw IMO.
While I agree with you with respect to gladiators, I think you're dead wrong on the templars, but that 4e might make our difference irrelevant.
As I understand, 4e is going towards the "unearthed Arcana" setup, where things are more flexible. Unearthed Arcana has a setup where a cleric can be a spontaneous caster with a short personal spell list, like a 3e sorceror or a DS3 templar. That description is consistent with how templar magic works in the novels, especially in Abbey. Making templars a type of 3e cleric, i.e. praying to learn from a long broad list of spells, is not consistent with that DS type.
Nightwinter said: "I was just trying to clarify what I was saying without someone trying to slap my lips off and tell me I'm wrong"
No one slapped your lips or called you names. They just said that you are wrong. Athas.org is official by nature of our agreement with WotC. That doesn't mean that you have to use our version, or even that you can't run around mistakenly saying that Athas.org is not official.
"Everything is open to translation and interpretation"
Perhaps, but some interpretations are simply wrong, and some wrong interpretations are actually illegal to even voice in public. If someone were to create derivative products other than through Athas.org or through WotC, and circulated those versions as "official Dark Sun" work, that person could get sued. Since that's not your position, no one's going to sue or get sued, and you can say "athas.org is not official" and we can say "yes we are," back and forth, without legal consequences, until one side or the other gets bored :D
When WotC makes something it does it with the big picture in mind
You are wrong, unfortunately, since some of the wonderful WotC product writers such as Lynne Abbey have said publically that they produced their work without access to the big picture. It's clear that some folks moved off the projects and that some moved onto the projects without an ideal amount of communication between the successive teams.
There is a difference between allowing someone the rights and making it an officail product.
You are wrong, fortunately. Officialness is a legal right. Public acceptance, on the other hand, is earned. Jim Butler was pretty clear that his reason for choosing BWOA for the official site, was its general public acceptance in the Dark Sun fan community.
Well, the pictures we have incoming (I think they are mostly ready, as has been expressed a few times before, if memory serves). Can't do much about hard-cover, but then again.... The 2E materials for Dark Sun wasn't hardcover either. the layout for Athas.org's material is always being improved on, and the pictures are one of the things we'd like to get in everything -- there's been quite a number of artists that stepped forward from the community to provide some really creative and well-done work.
I personally am far more interested in work developed by people who are authentically interested and passionate about the setting, than some paid set of drones working on the setting because that's what their job requires of them. But that's just me.
I can't characterize any of the original paid Dark Sun staff as paid drones; every contact that i've had suggests passion and interest about the setting. AFAIK Brom is the only one who seems to have moved on without ever looking back, and I certainly could not picture Dark Sun without Brom's work, regardless of his current enthusiasm level.
Yes, I miss having hard copies too, and we're also not publishing as often as the paid team did during DS2e's heyday, but I think that our fan team is actually a step up from the professional team in terms of continuity and consistency. Our work has far fewer inconsistencies with the printed products than the printed products had with each other.
While I agree with you with respect to gladiators, I think you're dead wrong on the templars, but that 4e might make our difference irrelevant.
As I understand, 4e is going towards the "unearthed Arcana" setup, where things are more flexible. Unearthed Arcana has a setup where a cleric can be a spontaneous caster with a short personal spell list, like a 3e sorceror or a DS3 templar. That description is consistent with how templar magic works in the novels, especially in Abbey. Making templars a type of 3e cleric, i.e. praying to learn from a long broad list of spells, is not consistent with that DS type.
I was referring more to the concept of a cleric, rather than the 3.x mechanics of a cleric in general. With the changes that I'm expecting with 4e, I think that the reduction of class as profession focus will do nothing but good for D&D. (once everyone stops overreacting, that is) :P
You are wrong, unfortunately, since some of the wonderful WotC product writers such as Lynne Abbey have said publically that they produced their work without access to the big picture. It's clear that some folks moved off the projects and that some moved onto the projects without an ideal amount of communication between the successive teams.
Minor nitpick, Lynn Abbey had problems with TSR's communication channels, not WotC's.
I can't characterize any of the original paid Dark Sun staff as paid drones; every contact that i've had suggests passion and interest about the setting. AFAIK Brom is the only one who seems to have moved on without ever looking back, and I certainly could not picture Dark Sun without Brom's work, regardless of his current enthusiasm level.
But the odds are, we'd have none of the original staff that made Dark Sun developing for WotC. WotC would have picked a group of individuals to develop it, which would most likely end up with a bit of a re-imaging of it. Troy Denning and Brom are both, for example, working on other things, and I'm not entirely certain if Denning could be persuaded to return to Athas any more.
The "paid drone" reference would be more that we'd not know what level of involvement or interest the people who would be developing for WotC would have toward Athas, and how much WotC would force it to change to become very much in-line with their other settings. I'd really hate to see Athas be relegated to being little more than a slight desert-like coloration equivalent of Forgotten Realms or Eberron. It has some rather distinct qualities which would be nice to have retained, and I'm not certain if WotC would do that.
But the odds are, we'd have none of the original staff that made Dark Sun developing for WotC. WotC would have picked a group of individuals to develop it, which would most likely end up with a bit of a re-imaging of it. Troy Denning and Brom are both, for example, working on other things, and I'm not entirely certain if Denning could be persuaded to return to Athas any more.
The "paid drone" reference would be more that we'd not know what level of involvement or interest the people who would be developing for WotC would have toward Athas, and how much WotC would force it to change to become very much in-line with their other settings. I'd really hate to see Athas be relegated to being little more than a slight desert-like coloration equivalent of Forgotten Realms or Eberron. It has some rather distinct qualities which would be nice to have retained, and I'm not certain if WotC would do that.
Well if Noonan's work with Piazo is any indication of how it would go, I don't think the WotC's situation is all that grim. For all my differences with the Paizo version of DS, I think that Noonan's love for Dark Sun does come through, and it does maintain the Athasian distinctness. I'm not certain that any one or two of us, under a magazine's hard deadline, could have done as well as Noonan did. I think we've done better, overall, because we've had more time, and since we answer primarily to the fans, we aren't forced to accomodate all D&D base classes, and because there are more of us.
At the end of the day, our limitations are of the same nature as Noonan's -- not enough hours in the week, and not enough manpower. The advantage we have over Noonan is that we can keep working on the projects for years, without getting reassigned.