Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mulhull Aug 19, 2007 2:16:46	Has every faction in Sigil achieved it's goals at least once? For example, I think lots of Dustmen have achieved the true death, though I think any godsman rising to godhood would get a visit and a shredding from the lady if it happened in Sigil. How long has Sigil existed? My 2E Outer Planes MM says that the outer planes didn't always exist, the Planescape boxed set hadn't been released yet, but it said there were 3 lights of balance at the center of the Plane of Concordant Opposition (renamed the Outlands) so, we can scrap the lights of balance thing for Sigil, but not sure if we can do so to the Outer Planes always existed. Also, eons ago, I remember when I used to use Prodigy, which was a dial up online service (not an ISP, it only let you use it's own internal stuff) someone told me that the all of the planes always existed except the outer planes. That every plane was broken off from the prime when time began, but the outer planes were willed into existence by the highgod- the force that surrounds all of reality. Later, as you can probably guess, I found out that the origin of the AD&D multiverse has never been explained, but according to that MM I mentioned the powers of creation created the outer planes. So, what do you think? I always assumed this was correct and can't contact this person about it anymore, but it at least sounded like it was true, think someone just BS'd him and he spread this rumor?
#2 zombiegleemax Aug 19, 2007 6:26:00	Has every faction in Sigil achieved it's goals at least once? Well, consider the Athar and the Doomguard, and I think you should be able to answer that question on your own. ;) But, well, it depends on how you define "success": Has any faction remade the Multiverse in its own image? Clearly, no (though it's certainly not for a lack of trying on the part of the Harmonium), but important successes have been achieved in regards to winning influence and demonstrating the validity of their respective beliefs, and as you sorta note the factions with more individual-oriented aims are more likely to have registered success than the ones with overarching goals. As for the origins of the Outer Planes: they remain a mystery, and the theories that have been advanced tend to assume that everything either took its beginning with some kind of primeval force: whether it was the first powers, the elements, or some kind embodiment of one or more of the alignments. But as noted, to my knowledge none has ever been allowed the status of canon.
#3 ripvanwormer Aug 19, 2007 13:57:50	Has every faction in Sigil achieved it's goals at least once? The Dustmen want everyone to achieve True Death, which hasn't happened yet. The Godsmen want everyone to become a god, the Athar want the powers to be dethroned, the Fraternity of Order wants knowledge of every law and axiom (they even want to know the laws that govern the planes of Chaos, and refuse to accept that there aren't any), the Revolutionary League wants the end of all governments, the Free League wants everyone to be free, the Xaositects want Chaos to devour everything, and the Doomguard want the entire multiverse to end. So no. Some individual faction members have advanced to a higher stage of being through their factions, though. Factol Lariset of the Guvners discovered one of the Great Axioms and vanished, becoming a god or possibly the new Lady of Pain. Former Bleaker factols Tollysalmon and Esmus have gained strange mental powers that make them unkillable, though completely insane. Factol Valny Hawkins of the Transcendent Order found perfect union with the Cadence of the Planes. The Sign of One installed the pit fiend Bel as Lord of the First. The former factol of the Believers of the Source, Curran, is now a demigod who grants spells of healing and protection. The Revolutionary League managed to get the factions kicked out of Sigil. But the Athar have never killed a power, and the Doomguard have never so much as stopped a Great Modron March. How long has Sigil existed? A very long time. The earliest firm date is 10,000 years ago (the time of Shekelor), but Sigil definitely existed long before that (since Shekelor considered an earlier Sigilian wizard to be ancient even in his time). The fiends and celestials didn't, as a group, discover Sigil until fairly late, after the discovery that petitioners could be turned into new members of their kind (which means after the creation of the tanar'ri and baatezu, but before the battle at the Plains of Pesh). The Lady of Pain was around even then. We don't know exactly how long Sigil existed. Maybe it's older than the Outer Planes, or maybe it's newer. My 2E Outer Planes MM says that the outer planes didn't always exist, the Planescape boxed set hadn't been released yet, but it said there were 3 lights of balance at the center of the Plane of Concordant Opposition (renamed the Outlands) so, we can scrap the lights of balance thing for Sigil, but not sure if we can do so to the Outer Planes always existed. Yes, that story is in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium, too. The Lights of Balance don't seem to exist anymore - you might be right that they became Sigil. It's just a myth, of course, so it might not be literally true. someone told me that the all of the planes always existed except the outer planes. That's not official. It's been suggested that the Inner Planes formed first from the raw possibility of the Ethereal Plane, then the Material Plane evolved from a combination of the four elements, then the Outer Planes formed from the beliefs of those who lived on the Prime. The Astral Plane is the space between all planes, and likely existed as long as the multiverse has. There is strong evidence that the Outer Planes is older than mortal life, so what beliefs it might have formed from is unknown. The D&D Immortals set described a group of beings called the Old Ones who created the multiverse long before the arrival of the gods - they were mentioned in the Epic Level Handbook, but it's not completely clear they exist in the current game. It seems clear, however, that time has a beginning and an end. The planes, then, had a beginning and some day they will cease to exist. That's what the Doomguard believe, anyway, and the descriptions of the Far Realm as the region that exists before time's beginning and after it ends seems to confirm this. The Outer Planes, according to the Hellbound boxed set, were originally just the raw forces of Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, and Balance, and they only slowly evolved into the current set of 17 planes as they blended together. They were, thus, more an act of evolution (or, at least, collaborative creation) than creation. The Powers of Creation described in the source you mentioned might be the same as the "gods of Law" mentioned in the Fiendish Codex series, and they might be the same as the Twin Serpents mentioned in Guide to Hell. If so, they introduced form to the Outer Planes, helping to arrange it in a ring shape and introducing the Rule of Threes and Center of All premises, but they didn't actually create them - there are beings of Chaos of equal power, and primal beings of good, and beings of evil called the baernaloths equal to the others. There's no evidence of a single "highgod" that created reality. The Dragonlance campaign has a highgod, but he only has power over Krynnspace. If such a being exists, it has responsibility over far more than just this multiverse.
#4 Mulhull Aug 21, 2007 22:48:31	The Dustmen want everyone to achieve True Death, which hasn't happened yet. The Godsmen want everyone to become a god, the Athar want the powers to be dethroned, the Fraternity of Order wants knowledge of every law and axiom (they even want to know the laws that govern the planes of Chaos, and refuse to accept that there aren't any), the Revolutionary League wants the end of all governments, the Free League wants everyone to be free, the Xaositects want Chaos to devour everything, and the Doomguard want the entire multiverse to end. I just meant the factions achieving their factions goals at least once. One dustman achieving the true death would be sufficient is what I was asking. However, the Godsmen are unique in regards to Sigil. Yes, mortals can become gods through certain circumstances (The 2E legends and lore book lists the criteria for a mortal to become a demi-god, perhaps in the outer planes through belief alone.) But, I wouldn't think this is the case in Sigil. Sigil seems to be immune to belief, while belief may cause certain things to happen in Sigil, it's never toppled/destroyed the lady or changed the very nature of the city, slid into an outer plane like a gate town, etc. Perhaps at one time Aoskar was a mortal, which is how he was able to enter Sigil not being a god at the time, then as he got more worshipers, and became almost divine he was killed by the lady. I always thought this would be the case with any Godsman who got near divinity in Sigil, the lady would put an end to him/her in short order, so I think no godsman could achieve their goals in the city, though someone else said that gods have been created there and quickly expelled from the city, perhaps just the nature of the neutral ground of Sigil prevents it, like a physical law, like how two north poles repel each other, Sigil repels gods. But the Athar have never killed a power Do they want to kill a power? I thought they acknowledge the fact that beings people think of as gods are powerful, but not true gods, since they require worshipers and have limits as to what they can do and how many times they can do it. Yes, that story is in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium, too. The Lights of Balance don't seem to exist anymore - you might be right that they became Sigil. It's just a myth, of course, so it might not be literally true. Sigil started off in the Planescape boxed set as the new center of the Outlands (Concordant Opposition) the 2E Outer Planes MM was 2E too, but it was before the Planescape boxed set, quite drastic change, if you ask me. The 1E manual of planes says the center of Concordant Opposition changes form, but you can't get any closer than 100 miles from the center, nor can you "damage" it whether you're a god or not. And a mortal gradually loses the ability to cast higher level spells as he approaches it, 9th at 900 miles, 8th at 800 miles, etc until finally when he/she gets within 100 miles even normal chemical reactions don't happen. It doesn't say anything about the lights of balance there though. That's not official. It's been suggested that the Inner Planes formed first from the raw possibility of the Ethereal Plane, then the Material Plane evolved from a combination of the four elements, then the Outer Planes formed from the beliefs of those who lived on the Prime. The Astral Plane is the space between all planes, and likely existed as long as the multiverse has. There is strong evidence that the Outer Planes is older than mortal life, so what beliefs it might have formed from is unknown. The D&D Immortals set described a group of beings called the Old Ones who created the multiverse long before the arrival of the gods - they were mentioned in the Epic Level Handbook, but it's not completely clear they exist in the current game. It seems clear, however, that time has a beginning and an end. The planes, then, had a beginning and some day they will cease to exist. That's what the Doomguard believe, anyway, and the descriptions of the Far Realm as the region that exists before time's beginning and after it ends seems to confirm this. I found that bit very confusing in the 3E Manual of the Planes about the far realm, about what beings there look like, there's that one is shows us, the thing with arms and legs sticking out of it, but not much of a description as to what it looks like there, I guess everything changes form periodically. Anyway, I just wondered where that person got this bit about the Origin of the Multiverse, It sounded good so I accepted it until someone told me it hadn't even been explained before. The Outer Planes, according to the Hellbound boxed set, were originally just the raw forces of Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, and Balance, and they only slowly evolved into the current set of 17 planes as they blended together. They were, thus, more an act of evolution (or, at least, collaborative creation) than creation. The Powers of Creation described in the source you mentioned might be the same as the "gods of Law" mentioned in the Fiendish Codex series, and they might be the same as the Twin Serpents mentioned in Guide to Hell. If so, they introduced form to the Outer Planes, helping to arrange it in a ring shape and introducing the Rule of Threes and Center of All premises, but they didn't actually create them - there are beings of Chaos of equal power, and primal beings of good, and beings of evil called the baernaloths equal to the others. Also, in that MM when describing the blood war, it mentions a "One who lies hidden who created the universe" In that the Tanari and Baatezu fight because each one possesses half a perfect sphere of evil, whatever that means. Someone told me the Hut of Baba Yaga it mentions something about an almighty entity. And, although it isn't official, well as far as continuity is concerned, there was an old Dragon Magazine article called Politics of Hell, which mentioned the Nine Hells was the first outer plane to exist. It did have the devil in it, Lucifer Morningstar (as much as some AD&Ders have liked to say D&D contains nothing of Christianity) and Asmodeus, who pre-dates the Baatezu.
#5 maldin Aug 22, 2007 8:28:42	While there has been a lot of canon that has been tied together to form a fairly detailed history of the planes after the planes had been formed (and Rip has written one of the most complete timelines), there is no official answer to the question of how they were formed. As it should be. I strongly believe that that sort of thing should be left up to individual DMs. If you would like to see my origin of the planes theory (creation myth) check out my "Life, the Multiverse, and Everything" webpage at http://melkot.com/mysteries/multiverse.html where I not only explain the origins of the planes, but tie it into the very rules of the game itself. Denis, aka "Maldin" Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
#6 ripvanwormer Aug 22, 2007 9:06:27	However, the Godsmen are unique in regards to Sigil. As I said above, the Godsman factol Curran did succeed in becoming a god. It's not clear whether or not he was in Sigil at the time. The Godsman keep an asylum called Harbinger House in Sigil full of people on the cusp of divinity. Trolan is one of the inmates of Harbinger House who did successfully become a god within Sigil. The Lady of Pain showed up and forced him to leave, but didn't kill him. This is described in the adventure Harbinger House. Do they want to kill a power? Some of them do. There's a fraction of them based in the Astral Plane who are trying their best. See A Guide to the Astral Plane. Also, in that MM when describing the blood war, it mentions a "One who lies hidden who created the universe" In that the Tanari and Baatezu fight because each one possesses half a perfect sphere of evil, whatever that means. That's part of a Torilian myth, so I assume that's a reference to Ao. And, although it isn't official, well as far as continuity is concerned, there was an old Dragon Magazine article called Politics of Hell, which mentioned the Nine Hells was the first outer plane to exist. It did have the devil in it, Lucifer Morningstar (as much as some AD&Ders have liked to say D&D contains nothing of Christianity) and Asmodeus, who pre-dates the Baatezu. The article in question doesn't say the Nine Hells was the first outer plane to exist. It doesn't really speak in terms of Outer Planes, since the article is so early in D&D's history that the term wasn't widely used yet, but it implies that Heaven is the first plane to exist (since it populates Hell with fallen angels).
#7 swiftbow Sep 05, 2007 1:00:54	I don't have nearly as much material as Rip, but I do agree with Maldin that making up creation stories is good for individual DMs. Lots of fun, too! [shameless plug]Here's mine! Planescape Survival Guide - Prologue[/shameless plug]