My question goes down a different path.
In the various Known World / Mystara campaigns we've run over our many years of gaming, what outside concepts have had their influence? Other fantasy settings, real world mythologies, or even sci fi worlds....
I have been playing D&D in various formats for over 20 years now with a 50/50 ratio of being a DM and player. Most of the campaigns I have DM'd have been in Mystara but I usually take a lower magical approach. I have only recently started to browse this forum but I have been an avid fan of Vaults of Pandius for some time.
Any woo....
In my Mystara Campaigns besides perhaps some adventures back in time to Blackamoor or to the Savage Coast I have often incorporated Ravenloft adventures or material. Not so much that the players enter the mists to the Ravenloft plane but by incorporating the material into the Mystara world. One of the most memorable campaigns developed when I substituted Sulescu in Karameikos with the Lands of Barovia!
I also once ran a short-lived Council of Wyrms campaign were I substituted the Isle of Cestia for the dragon homelands. A concept I have kept in other Mystara campaigns but other then in referencing I haven’t had to utilize that material.
I also have different Vampires in my Settings with them being closer to Anne Rice’s Vampires in her Vampire Chronicle books.
As I've begun delving into the many topics here and at the Vaults, I understand the the main intent here is to research, explore, discuss, and eventually decide on Mystaran 'cannon' -- at least as best as possible given what is often vague and sometimes conflicting information.
Uhm, not really. While some of us are definitely interested in delving into "canon research", the overall consensus is that Mystaran canon is so full of internal conflicts that it is basically impossible to reach a consensus on what is (or isn't) canon (i.e., we agree to disagree).
That is one of the reasons why there have been no official releases from the Vaults of Pandius (contrary to what has been going on in most other official fan sites).
My question goes down a different path.
In the various Known World / Mystara campaigns we've run over our many years of gaming, what outside concepts have had their influence? Other fantasy settings, real world mythologies, or even sci fi worlds....
I've used (parts of) the Al Qadim setting for Ylaruam. Parts of Dark Sun have been proposed for the Great Waste (IIRC, someone used the Dragon Crown adventure set there) and for Davania (I use lifeshaping for Emerondian "biotech").
Oriental Adventures is an obvious reference for Myoshima and Ochalea.
RW mythologies are not as prevalent in Mystara as they are in Planescape, but we've used them a lot (see on the Vaults the extended Northmen, Ochalean, and Nithian pantheons, in several flavors).
There was also an article on the Vaults on Mystara variants, may be it's this one (though I remember something longer): http://www.pandius.com/addsites.html
For research -as well as my own curiosity- I've been printing out the GAZ pdfs I've bought over the years and getting them coil bound for easier reading. I've printed out through Darokin (#11) and I managed to pick up a Shrink Wrapped copy of GAZ10 (Orcs of Thar. Has no legal pdf available for some reason) on eBay, so my set is complete except for pages missing from the scans. So far, I've read the first 2 GAZs (GDK & Ylaruam) cover to cover. I'm reading Glantri now.
For my take on the KW, I think I'm going to be using a lower magic setting. A lot of the Blackmoor stuff and some of the "everyday" magic in places like Glantri will probably get toned down a bit. The GDK will be lower in population and wilder than the GAZ depicts. Barlimoor and his organization in Ylaruam may just "go away" or be far less of an immediate threat. The whole "Radiance" thing I haven't decided about since I'm still reading GAZ3.
The truth is a lot of this doesn't have to be worked out ahead of time. I can leave things open and wait until characters are powerful enough that it matters, then decide.
Bear with me, I take a few wide turns here and there off the beaten path. I've borrowed elements from Eberron, Wheel of Time, Elizabeth Haydon's Symphony of the Ages, and dozens of other books here and there. I'd be most interested to hear feedback from other Mystaraphiles.
The Great Rain of Fire still happened, but it was the result of Blackmoor's decades-long war against demonkind. Forcing the demons from the Prime plane, and shifting their home dimensions out of alignment to prevent them from returning, the Gate device malfunctioned, fusing the demonic corruption into the source of Mystara's magical power. The demons were physically banished, but their essence lingers, fused with the Radiance, as well as embedded within the land itself.
Most of the demonic essence slumbers, locked in a dreamless hibernation. The more powerful of demonkind, however, have awakened, and taken possession of willing and unwilling hosts.
Vancian magic was lost in the Great Rain of Fire, as most mages died or went insane and died in the backlash of the Gateway device. Ninety percent of magical texts burned, but legends speak of a tower near Blackmoor that survived the disaster, the books waiting to be rediscovered. Magic is now taught exclusively by oral tradition, in the Great Tower of Glantri. Those able to touch and shape the Radiance are quickly gathered up and taught to control their abilities, lest the power overwhelm them and run out of control.
Due to the demonic corruption upon the Radiance, men go mad shortly after they begin using magic. Women are able to use magic, the corruption manifesting in any children they bear.
Elves, both male and female, have been seen to use magic with no ill effects, though seeing an elf at all is rare in the last seven or eight hundred years. The forests of Canolbarth are a silent, dark, forboding place, the air there heavy with the memory of some great saddness. And while pictures from ancient sources depict elves as gold-haired, brown-haired, and dark-haired, wielding magic and sword together, those few sightings of elves today using magic all agree on two details: their hair is purest white, and a shining crystal hangs about their neck, or dangles from a chain on the wrist.
That is pretty much all the background "flavor" I've come up with. Mechanics-wise, I've done the following:
Vancian magic is "right out" as they say. I've implemented the Channeling system from Wheel of Time, using the Radiance rather than the One Power. Glantri takes the place of Tarabon.
Elves also channel, but the males shunt the corruption into soulgems, which can store up to a particular limit. Should that limit be breached, the channeler's hair and eyes turn black, and the corruption immediately takes hold of the elf. Maddness and possible demonic possession follow. What the elves do with crystals that have reached their capacities remains a mystery.
Borrowing heavily from the Eberron campaign setting, Artificers are now the sole means of providing "magical" weapons, on a temporary basis. Flavor-wise, they are able to either coax out a hibernating demon within the object to power it, or they bind a roaming ethereal demon spirit temporarily.
Also, a subset of clerics have emerged to fight the lingering demonic threat: the Followers of the Silver Flame make it their duty to root out demonic corruption wherever they find it. Depending on how you want to cast the Silver Flame, they can either be mostly good, or lean more towards a Whitecloak-esque inquisitorial role.
Shifters prowl the wilder borderlands between the lands of the Known World, finding a particularly high concentration in Karameikos. Some whisper that they are a halfbreed race of lycanthropes. Others surmise that they are hosts to a particular type of demon and can call upon its power to effect their shiftings. Followers of the Flame would argue that it is half a dozen of one and six of the other.
The Warforged, if they are to be used, are a rare curiosity found roaming the frozen northern wastes of Skothar, relics from the glory days of Blackmoor.
Perhaps I will post later detailing some of the plot threads that have come about as a result of this tinkering with the Mystaran past.
Rob
The purpose of the inner world remains the same, to preserve cultures that disappear from the surface world.
Of course, the 'seeding' concept extends to other races, many of which I use in my science fiction game setting. Anyone remember another classic TSR game -- Star Frontiers? Mystara is actually a planet in my Star Frontiers universe.
The original Imortals of Mystara are actually some of the beings who constructed the world and remained to oversee the development of various races. Those Mystaran beings who ascended to Imortal status became aware of the nature of their world and proved themselves capable of helping 'administer' things.
The concept of a constructed 'incubator' world came from two main sources: Larry Niven's Protectors (Ringworld and other Known Worlds novels) and David Brin's Progenitors (Startide Rising and Uplift War).
There are other things I've used, as well. More later...
Rob, I would love to hear more about your use of Eberron classes and races in Mystara. Have you considered the possibility of the Shifters being related to the old Alphatian Shape Shifters (said to be the origin of Alphatian Lycanthropy)?
Havard
Interesting thread!
Have you considered the possibility of the Shifters being related to the old Alphatian Shape Shifters (said to be the origin of Alphatian Lycanthropy)?
Havard
Alas, my Alphatian lore is somewhat lacking. My intent was to have the shifters primarily a Karameikos thing, and have them also spread around parts of Glantri. Alphatia, in my version of the Known World, was actually settled by the Afridhi in the early days after the Great Rain of Fire, and has by "present day" become something akin to Robert Jordan's Seanchan (complete with leashed channellers).
My only source for Alphatia comes from a recently purchased "Dawn of the Emperors" set -- while I don't recall seeing much about lycanthropy in there, I'll have to take another look. The notion of the condition having followed them from off-world intrigues me, as I'd assumed that lycanthropy would have originated on Mystara itself. Hmmm. Perhaps the Alphatians, having dropped into Mystara, quickly found themselves assimilated into the Afridhi culture (by "assimilated" of course, we mean "pounced on and leashed so their magic could be put to 'better' use")
Not much interested in dopplegangers-as-PCs or psionics (neither really fits with the overall mood I'm going for), I haven't bothered to port in the Changelings or Kalashtar.
As far as the rest of the goodies from Eberron-- the differing sects of druids are brilliant, giving lots of different "spices" to the same dish, so to speak.
Rob
Alas, my Alphatian lore is somewhat lacking. My intent was to have the shifters primarily a Karameikos thing, and have them also spread around parts of Glantri. Alphatia, in my version of the Known World, was actually settled by the Afridhi in the early days after the Great Rain of Fire, and has by "present day" become something akin to Robert Jordan's Seanchan (complete with leashed channellers).
Wow! The Afridhi in Alphatia is a pretty cool idea. I like making Blackmoor elements more prominent. The whole Mystara Blackmoor connection is a bit too weak in canon to make it interesting as it stands IMO. Although Im no expert on Robert Jordan's series, I have also felt that the Afridhi and the Seanchan to be similar. Maybe its the 'invaders of exotic culture' thing, but I like this way of presenting them.
My only source for Alphatia comes from a recently purchased "Dawn of the Emperors" set -- while I don't recall seeing much about lycanthropy in there, I'll have to take another look. The notion of the condition having followed them from off-world intrigues me, as I'd assumed that lycanthropy would have originated on Mystara itself. Hmmm. Perhaps the Alphatians, having dropped into Mystara, quickly found themselves assimilated into the Afridhi culture (by "assimilated" of course, we mean "pounced on and leashed so their magic could be put to 'better' use")
The thing about Alphatian Lycanthropy is in PC4.
Not much interested in dopplegangers-as-PCs or psionics (neither really fits with the overall mood I'm going for), I haven't bothered to port in the Changelings or Kalashtar.
As far as the rest of the goodies from Eberron-- the differing sects of druids are brilliant, giving lots of different "spices" to the same dish, so to speak.
I agree. The Druidic sects is one of the most interesting parts of the Eberron core book IMO.
If the Shifters hail from Mystaran Lycanthropy, perhaps Changelings are the ones who were descended from those Alphatian shape shifters?
Havard
Wow! The Afridhi in Alphatia is a pretty cool idea. I like making Blackmoor elements more prominent. The whole Mystara Blackmoor connection is a bit too weak in canon to make it interesting as it stands IMO.
I've always been a big fan of the whole "lost civilization" deal. Pompeii, Atlantis, the Blackmoor and Nithian empires, Jordan's world from its last age, before the Breaking. The notion of the Old Kingdom, of yearning for what was lost and sometimes finding out that it was lost for a reason and you're better off where you are now -- for me, it is a very powerful theme. It drives the villains in my adventures. It drives the heroes, whether it be to foil the villain, or to satiate their own curiosity. Every adventure needs conflict and I like to use this Old vs. New to stir up the bee's nest. Oh yeah, and it also explains where all those moldy old dungeons came from. :P
Blackmoor lies buried under the icy wastes of far northern Skothar, forgotten but for the legends of the Afridhi, and what little has been salvaged and resides in the libraries of the Great Tower in Glantri. Much like the Shadow Elves, the men of Blackmoor have gone shorter, and pale and white. Uther's line survived, and his heirs steadfastly guard the Gateway device, which still thrums and turns, locking the dimensional gears to keep the demons' home planes shifted away from the Mystaran Prime.
The Afridhi were too good to simply let slip into a historical footnote. So I decided to keep them around, routed in the dark, chaotic days following the Great Rain of Fire to the newly formed island of Alphatia, where they kept the Old Ways alive. Seeing the shift in how magical powers worked, the demonic entity gave the Afridhi Empress the secret to controlling those chanelling the Radiance. And rather than doing away with the demon-tainted offspring of female channelers (as is done in the Known World), they are taken and raised as children of the Empress herself (viola, 4th ed. tieflings worked in, who knew?).
The thing about Alphatian Lycanthropy is in PC4.
Ah, I never did get around to purchasing the PC series. Had my hands full with Elves and Dwarves for the most part.
If the Shifters hail from Mystaran Lycanthropy, perhaps Changelings are the ones who were descended from those Alphatian shape shifters?
Mystara is a big place. Great ideas for future use of both of those races!
Rob
I dunno if this goes here, but has anyone come up with a rational way to incorporate the Savage Coast into Mystara. Most of it is okay, I guess... but the Red Curse is just dreadfully implemented. Thoughts on the region or the Curse?
The VotPA series has a very different take on the Curse than the Savage Coast book, based on RW cinnabar (mercury sulfite, a poisonous compound believed to have life-prolonging by taoist alchemists), which might be interesting.
The VotPA series has a very different take on the Curse than the Savage Coast book, based on RW cinnabar (mercury sulfite, a poisonous compound believed to have life-prolonging by taoist alchemists), which might be interesting.
yeah, i know a little bit too much about cinnabar though. tends to kill you--so much so they were paying mexicans $10 a day in 1915 to mine the stuff in Texas--which back then was a pretty good haul. Most of the guys were dead or useless in less than a year. even if they made it out, they were toothless and likely crazy.
My problems are:
a) the rate of affliction: if this thing were so sudden, then EVERYONE would've become afflicted when the curse expanded. you have only a two week grace period before you become afflicted... everyone in the savage coast would've been dead or a mutant if you follow that timeline--and no one would visit the coast... it would be just too dangerous.
b) the depletion of the cinnabryl: the stuff goes by really, really, really fast. there either has to be gobs of the stuff everywhere (which contradicts the 'recently discovered deposits' which fills the sourcebook OR it would be insanely priced--which means that everyone would be afflicted, which contradicts the sourcebook.
c) the onset of the curse doesn't really have any effect on the nations of the coast. none of them collapse, none of their political structures/alliances shift. it just seems to be the order of the day, and the sourcebooks don't address this.
d) the Orc's Head sourcebook is particularly uninspired. none of that material is even vaguely interesting, except for the sea-faring orc/polynesian armadas.
e) the settlers are Thyatian--why aren't the Thyatians not kicking the crap out of them? That's what Thyatians DO, for crying out loud!
a) the rate of affliction: if this thing were so sudden, then EVERYONE would've become afflicted when the curse expanded. you have only a two week grace period before you become afflicted... everyone in the savage coast would've been dead or a mutant if you follow that timeline--and no one would visit the coast... it would be just too dangerous.
That's by design -- to keep SC somewhat separated from the rest of the world.
However, if you play by the VotPA version, it is not so.
b) the depletion of the cinnabryl: the stuff goes by really, really, really fast. there either has to be gobs of the stuff everywhere (which contradicts the 'recently discovered deposits' which fills the sourcebook OR it would be insanely priced--which means that everyone would be afflicted, which contradicts the sourcebook.
My opinion on this point is that most people use Maintain spells.
Of course, in the VotPA version, that's not the case. In VotPA, there is no widespread Red Curse, since you get curse and powers only by ingesting cinnabar.
c) the onset of the curse doesn't really have any effect on the nations of the coast. none of them collapse, none of their political structures/alliances shift. it just seems to be the order of the day, and the sourcebooks don't address this.
Indeed.
e) the settlers are Thyatian--why aren't the Thyatians not kicking the crap out of them? That's what Thyatians DO, for crying out loud!
In Savage Coast version, because they can't stay more than one week without being permanently stranded there. Also, the settlers have firearms, which don't work outside the SC, and which the Thyatians obviously don't have.
In the VotPA version, because they don't care about these remote colonies. Formally, Narvaez is part of Thyatis in both versions, IIRC, except that no one cares, since it's too far, and Thyatis has more pressing concerns (Alphatia, for one).
Anyway, I definitely recommend that you read the VotPA version, as it does not have most of the problems you mentioned (well, there's still the Orc's Head, but you can always ignore it).
e) the settlers are Thyatian--why aren't the Thyatians not kicking the crap out of them? That's what Thyatians DO, for crying out loud!
Agathokles made a good summary of the canon reasons. IMC I add the fact that Hule is in the way and effectively blocks both overland and overseas contact between the Known World and the Savage Coast. As long as Thyatis is also occupied with Alphatia it doesn't have the manpower to deal with Hule.
Also, the waters south of the Serpent Peninsula are notoriously hard to navigate.
I still havent quite decided what to do with the Red Curse. I think I am leaning towards a version where only a limited number of individuals posess the curse and the legacies. Perhaps more than just Inheritors, but still not the entire population.
Havard
moving onto the red curse, i like the inheritors, i like the afflicted, but i don't particularly like the widespread need for cinnabryl and the curse impacting the whole of the population, etc..
perhaps. nontheless, we have (in the fan literature) Thyatians doing business even further away, in Ghyr. their force projection is pretty incredible. but, this is simply another problem in the savage coast literature.... one of many, and excusable i suppose.
Well, that's fan literature -- personally, I don't subscribe to the idea of Thyatians ever having a military presence anywhere in the north, with the exception of Oceansend and perhaps Landfall.
Well, that's fan literature -- personally, I don't subscribe to the idea of Thyatians ever having a military presence anywhere in the north, with the exception of Oceansend and perhaps Landfall.
Thyatian influence/interests in other regions are supported by the Master Set map, Saga of the Shadowlord and CM1. The question is however how strong these influences are in AC1000. And perhaps even their limited presence in the north helps make any intervention towards the Savage Coast even harder as long as they want to avoid leaving their flanks open towards Alphatia.
A thought on gunpowder. I dont generally oppose to the idea of gunpowder, but I have decided that I wont have it available, even as smokepowder anywhere on Mystara in AC1000. In AC1010 it may be invented, but is still much rarer than what is presented in the Savage Coast material. The weapon of choice there are Crossbows. I dont use Handcrossbows much as they are really only effective as an assasin's weapon. If that means missing out on some of the western analogies that's fine by me ;)
Havard
Thyatian influence/interests in other regions are supported by the Master Set map, Saga of the Shadowlord and CM1.
OTOH, the Master set map was later declared wrong, Saga of the Shadowlord as it that there is no Thyatian military presence in or near Wendar, and the events in CM1 do not happen in the Gazetteer/WotI continuum.
So the amount of influence of Thyatis in the north is similar to that in the Savage Coast -- so, I don't think it's fair to hold this as a point against the Savage Coast book coverage of the Thyatian issue.
That said, obviously if one accepts a Thyatian empire with much wider influence, then he has to deal with it in the Savage Coast as well -- which is the problem Yakman stated.
GP
Although Im no expert on Robert Jordan's series, I have also felt that the Afridhi and the Seanchan to be similar. Maybe its the 'invaders of exotic culture' thing, but I like this way of presenting them.
I see them as rather different: The Afridhi are a much more primitive people, Zulus crossed with pre-Kingdom Israel, conquering for their god and hauling him around with them in the form of the Well of Souls, while the Seanchan are a strongly hierarchical, bloodline obssessed empire focused on reconquering the homeland of their progenitors, armed with many strange animals and wizards in chains.
Though the Seanchan would make a cool model for Alphatia.
I dunno if this goes here, but has anyone come up with a rational way to incorporate the Savage Coast into Mystara. Most of it is okay, I guess... but the Red Curse is just dreadfully implemented. Thoughts on the region or the Curse?
I'd say that tweaking the curse is possible. First change: Only one in every two hundred people has the potential to be affected by the Curse, gain a Legacy and require regular contact with cinnabryl. (PCs, as a note, get to choose whether or not they're afflicted.) This changes the Red Curse from something that hammers entire towns when the cinnabryl supplies run out to something that only nails a handful of residents.
Second change: The need for cinnabryl is greatly reduced if one avoids calling on Legacy powers. As long as you don't use your Legacy, it takes a full year to deplete an ounce's worth of cinnabryl. Invoke the Legacy power, though, and the cinnabryl depletion kicks in at full speed (one ounce per week). This means that Joe Peasant affected by the Curse is motivated to lie low and avoid invoking Legacies, so as to make his cinnabryl last.
Combine these, and you have a Curse that's important to those who want to use its power (adventurers, Inheritors and similar types), but not that important in the lives of the common folk. It also reduces cinnabryl consumption across the Savage Coast by a factor of about a thousand. You get some interesting stories out of things - the mother with a Cure legacy, who's used her power in a sudden fit of desperation to keep her injured child alive and now needs cinnabryl; the reckless teenager who's just discovered a Strength or War Cry legacy and is using it with abandon, and needs to be brought back under control - but the core setting doesn't require breaking the basic medieval fantasy assumptions of D&D.
I'd say that tweaking the curse is possible. First change: Only one in every two hundred people has the potential to be affected by the Curse, gain a Legacy and require regular contact with cinnabryl. (PCs, as a note, get to choose whether or not they're afflicted.) This changes the Red Curse from something that hammers entire towns when the cinnabryl supplies run out to something that only nails a handful of residents.
Second change: The need for cinnabryl is greatly reduced if one avoids calling on Legacy powers. As long as you don't use your Legacy, it takes a full year to deplete an ounce's worth of cinnabryl. Invoke the Legacy power, though, and the cinnabryl depletion kicks in at full speed (one ounce per week). This means that Joe Peasant affected by the Curse is motivated to lie low and avoid invoking Legacies, so as to make his cinnabryl last.
Combine these, and you have a Curse that's important to those who want to use its power (adventurers, Inheritors and similar types), but not that important in the lives of the common folk. It also reduces cinnabryl consumption across the Savage Coast by a factor of about a thousand. You get some interesting stories out of things - the mother with a Cure legacy, who's used her power in a sudden fit of desperation to keep her injured child alive and now needs cinnabryl; the reckless teenager who's just discovered a Strength or War Cry legacy and is using it with abandon, and needs to be brought back under control - but the core setting doesn't require breaking the basic medieval fantasy assumptions of D&D.
great thoughts.
I'd say that tweaking the curse is possible. First change: Only one in every two hundred people has the potential to be affected by the Curse, gain a Legacy and require regular contact with cinnabryl. (PCs, as a note, get to choose whether or not they're afflicted.) This changes the Red Curse from something that hammers entire towns when the cinnabryl supplies run out to something that only nails a handful of residents.
Second change: The need for cinnabryl is greatly reduced if one avoids calling on Legacy powers. As long as you don't use your Legacy, it takes a full year to deplete an ounce's worth of cinnabryl. Invoke the Legacy power, though, and the cinnabryl depletion kicks in at full speed (one ounce per week). This means that Joe Peasant affected by the Curse is motivated to lie low and avoid invoking Legacies, so as to make his cinnabryl last.
Combine these, and you have a Curse that's important to those who want to use its power (adventurers, Inheritors and similar types), but not that important in the lives of the common folk. It also reduces cinnabryl consumption across the Savage Coast by a factor of about a thousand. You get some interesting stories out of things - the mother with a Cure legacy, who's used her power in a sudden fit of desperation to keep her injured child alive and now needs cinnabryl; the reckless teenager who's just discovered a Strength or War Cry legacy and is using it with abandon, and needs to be brought back under control - but the core setting doesn't require breaking the basic medieval fantasy assumptions of D&D.
Yeah, I think this is a good idea, as otherwise, it really would be nearly impossible to avoid mass crippling of everyone by the Curse.
My problems are:
a) the rate of affliction:
b) the depletion of the cinnabryl:
c) the onset of the curse doesn't really have any effect on the nations of the coast. none of them collapse, none of their political structures/alliances shift. it just seems to be the order of the day, and the sourcebooks don't address this.
Keep in mind, that Red Steel presents the world just a few weeks past the massive, region-wide contamination of the Curse (AC1010 vs late AC1009). All of those issues are possible campaign points. In the VoPA edition, Cursed areas are fairly well-known to the locals, and they had learned to avoid those spots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakman
perhaps. nontheless, we have (in the fan literature) Thyatians doing business even further away, in Ghyr. their force projection is pretty incredible. but, this is simply another problem in the savage coast literature.... one of many, and excusable i suppose.
Well, that's fan literature -- personally, I don't subscribe to the idea of Thyatians ever having a military presence anywhere in the north, with the exception of Oceansend and perhaps Landfall.
Yep, fan-fiction
The idea wasn't invented from whole cloth, though. It was tailored to fit some of the aprocryphal stuff into the larger canon context.Set aside the whole Idrisian Sphere gaz's, and look at the basics of Thyatis in the last century:
900 AC: Gabrionus IV orders a massive new wave of imperial expansion that included: Oceansend, Karameikos/Traladara, and the Savage Coast baronies.
~914 AC: Gabrionus V takes over, lets the military go to pot, and colonies left unattended.
960 AC: Thyatis is so far removed from greatness, Alphatia rolls them, only to be turned back by an upstart gladiator.
970 AC: Thyatis is still trying to shore up, sells Traladara to Stephen Karameikos for the quick cash infusion.
990's AC: only now is Thyatis ready to expand, this time going into the Hinterlands via Ochalea.
As a matter of colonial power, its relatively easy to drop off a few hundred to a couple of thousand colonists and say we'll be back later to collect taxes. Troop maintainence at remote places is difficult, and G5 pretty much insured that it couldn't be done. Add to that the almost instant internal squabbling of the baronies, and it's no great surprise that "Southhold" failed to take as a projection of Thyatian power.
-OldDawg
PS:
OTOH, the Master set map was later declared wrong, Saga of the Shadowlord as it that there is no Thyatian military presence in or near Wendar, and the events in CM1 do not happen in the Gazetteer/WotI continuum.
At the time that VoPA came out, what exactly was "wrong" with the old Master set map? The ones I can think of are 1) Thyatian power projection, 2) The Four Kingdoms had been retconned into the Hinterlands, and 3) so far as we know, there is no Great Khan, and 4) the Savage Coast was termed Southhold.
Plus the waggish tangor=bottle of Newkirk wine was itself overturned when HW gave use tanagoros.
At the time that VoPA came out, what exactly was "wrong" with the old Master set map? The ones I can think of are 1) Thyatian power projection, 2) The Four Kingdoms had been retconned into the Hinterlands, and 3) so far as we know, there is no Great Khan, and 4) the Savage Coast was termed Southhold.
5) The "Empire of Dorfin IV" does not exist as well (that area is occupied by Hule and the Yazak Steppes).
6) The Four Kingdoms are actually wrong in size and position -- the western part of the coast is occupied by the Milenian city states.
7) "Arypt" is not a nation, but a deserted region with a small HK and Simbasta presence.
8) "Barbarians" includes most of the Milenian City-States as well as Emerond, none of which seems to warrant the "barbarian" moniker.
9) The Serpent Peninsula does not include Sind and the Great Waste region.
These are the known inconsistencies I can think of.
In addition, when the map was declared wrong, it was stated that the political entities mentioned (e.g. the Empire of Dorfin IV, of the Great Khan, of Tangor, and the Matriarchy of Pelatan) do not exist as such, or at the very least do not have the specified size (much like Thyatis, which was set to include all the KW as well as the Adri Varma, Wendar, Denagoth and the lands north up to Frosthaven, while not including the IoD and Ochalea...).
Contrary to what the "Barbarians (not united)" label seemed to mean, none of the other areas (with the exception of Alphatia) should actually be considered a single empire or nation.
I'd say that tweaking the curse is possible. First change: Only one in every two hundred people has the potential to be affected by the Curse, gain a Legacy and require regular contact with cinnabryl.
Second change: The need for cinnabryl is greatly reduced if one avoids calling on Legacy powers. As long as you don't use your Legacy, it takes a full year to deplete an ounce's worth of cinnabryl.
These are indeed good ideas. Another possibility would be to modify the Maintain spell to cover more targets -- e.g., drop it from level 3 for priests and 6 for wizards to levels 2 and 5, and let it cover cover 10 creatures per level of the caster, for 2 days per level of the caster. As a balancing factor, require that one ounce of cinnabryl per target be used as the material component (since it is not depleted, it is not that much of a problem for cinnabryl consumption).
This way, a single 3rd level priest could cover, using 1 second level spell slot per day, a village of 180 people (without considering AD&D combination magic, which could push it farther).
GP
5) The "Empire of Dorfin IV" does not exist as well (that area is occupied by Hule and the Yazak Steppes).
6) The Four Kingdoms are actually wrong in size and position -- the western part of the coast is occupied by the Milenian city states.
7) "Arypt" is not a nation, but a deserted region with a small HK and Simbasta presence.
8) "Barbarians" includes most of the Milenian City-States as well as Emerond, none of which seems to warrant the "barbarian" moniker.
9) The Serpent Peninsula does not include Sind and the Great Waste region.
To be fair, almost none of the material listed above was in existence back in January 1990 when VotPA premiered - just Hule and the Great Waste. (Heck, not even Sind had been written up back then, IIRC - the X4/5/10 series presented the lands west of Darokin as mostly unsettled frontier, with Sayr Ulan as a 'tent city' set up by the Nomads as a beachhead for the Master's invasion.)
So if one considers Hule as a restive, independent-minded frontier satrapy of Dorfin IV's crumbling empire and the Great Waste a natural obstacle lumped in with the Serpent Peninsula because it didn't fit in anywhere else, one comes fairly close to getting things right. Once VotPA stuff started getting written, of course, this went out the window - but then, Bruce said it would be, straight up.
(Of course, *now* I'm wondering what a Great Waste inhabited by snakes and such would be like...)
On questions about Amazons in Mystara in the VotPA letters column Bruce suggested the Mariarchy of Pelatan as a possible location for such a culture and added :"Perhaps the old Thyatian map wasn't all wrong afterall" (or something to that effect, referring to the Master Set Map).
We should also keep in mind that VotPA presents the subjective views of an Alphatian Prince. He has discovered some mistakes in the Thyatian Maps which lead him to declare them "completely wrong", perhaps also fuelled by his dislike for Thyatians?
I like OldDawgs take on the "Thyatis region" as being their sphere of interest over the last 100 years.
I am also inclined to keep many of the other names, but with borders shrunk considerably and/or moved around.
I would like to see there being a small kindgom out there named the Empire of King Dorfinn. There could even be a Great Khan on Skothar, or at least have been one historically at some point. Some of the names, such as Arypt could easily refer to an entire region rather than a specific nation. Since we have very little other information to work with as to what kind of people live in those areas, we might as well use the Master's Map as a source of inspiration, even though Haldemar would dislike it... ;)
Havard
(Of course, *now* I'm wondering what a Great Waste inhabited by snakes and such would be like...)
... and it might involve something like this. ;)
Kalihya
The kalihya are black-skinned snake-beings that dwell within the deserts of the Great Waste. They are few in number, paranoid and suspicious of outsiders, but strong in magical power. They dream of a day when the ancient curse placed upon them is broken, but are unlikely ever to attempt to achieve such a goal themselves.
Armor Class: 6
Hit Dice: 4** to 9**** (M)
Move: 90' (30')
Attacks: 1 bite or 1 spell
Damage: 1d3 + special or by spell
No. Appearing: 3d4 (1d6)
Save As: E4-9
Morale: 7
Treasure Type: E+U
Intelligence: 16
Alignment: Lawful
XP Value: By Hit Dice -
- 4** = 175
- 5*** = 450
- 6*** = 850
- 7*** = 1650
- 8*** = 2300
- 9**** = 3000
Monster Type: Monster, Enchanted (Very Rare)
A typical kalihya is about 5' from nose to tail, and masses about 80 pounds. Its body is covered with fine, glossy black scales, though some kalihya have highlights in red, gold or green. Though the main section of a kalihya's body is lumpy and ungainly to the point of looking almost deformed, it can still move with speed and grace when it needs to. Its head is noticeably larger than that of most other snakes, and its eyes gleam with intelligence.
In combat, a kalihya can either cast spells (as a magic-user of a level equal to its Hit Dice; it needs no spell book to regain its spells, but cannot change its spell selection when relearning spells each day, either) or if need be attack with its bite. The kalihya's bite includes a narcotic toxin that can have either of two effects, as the kalihya chooses - the first is a paralytic, which lasts 3-12 rounds and takes effect immediately; the second is a hypnotic, which affects the target as if by a charm person spell, but requires one full turn to take full effect. The latter effect is almost never used in combat, but instead reserved for use on captured and helpless prisoners; the creatures affected are used as slaves by the kalihya, worked to the bone and then left to die in the desert. Either of the effects caused by the kalihya's bite can be resisted with a successful save vs. Poison. A kalihya's tail is thick, sinuous and sufficiently powerful to grasp and manipulate objects, but lacks the grace needed to hold weapons or otherwise provide use in combat.
A kalihya's spells are usually a mix of protective magics, area-effect spells and utility magics. They use the first to prepare for battle when time allows, the second to scatter and confuse groups of enemies so that many kalihya can attack a single foe, and the third as circumstances and the needs of daily life allow. Kalihya are also fond of illusions and necromancy, and will often possess such spells. They cannot be affected by polymorph magic, however - either beneficial or malign - and will never learn such spells.
The kalihya's origins are unclear, but they claim to be of human descent, having once been people of the Yavdlom Divinarchy. Hundreds of years ago, their ancestors - powerful but arrogant magic-users scornful of the Precepts of Yav and confident in their own mastery of the arcane - rebelled against the Prophet and the nobles and were subjected to a great and terrible curse. The lying hearts of the mages, decreed the Prophet, would be matched by their bodily forms; and so the first kalihya were created, men trapped in the bodies of desert snakes. These creatures fled northward, to the Great Waste where no other intelligent beings dwelled, to seethe in their spite and plot an eventual revenge.
So, at least, is the story as the kalihya believe it to be; no such account appears in the annals of Yavdlom, however, and it may be a false tale created to hide some other fell purpose. It remains, though, that the kalihya exist and have dwelled in the Great Waste for well over a century now, hiding from their neighbors and terrorizing those fools who enter their domains unprepared. They are powerful users of spell magic, but fear both organized human armies and the powers of clerics.
No exact count of the kalihya population exists, but it seems likely that between two and three thousand dwell in the Great Waste, in tribes of a few dozen members each. A typical kalihya settlement is half-exposed, half-underground, with warrens dug out of the sand, buttressed with scraps of salvaged timber and roofed over with ragged pieces of cloth or canvas. Though the kalihya are Lawful and regimented among themselves out of necessity, they bear no goodwill towards any outsider - they consider anyone without the strength to dictate terms to them as rightful prey. Even when bargaining, they will seek to promise as little as possible, and take advantage of any loophole offered in a contract.
A kalihya tribe is led by the largest and most magically powerful of its members. It is rumored that some kalihya have the ability to command undead, as a Liege of power equal to their Hit Dice, but such rumors have not been confirmed.
Terrain: Desert (the Great Waste)
To be fair, almost none of the material listed above was in existence back in January 1990 when VotPA premiered - just Hule and the Great Waste. (Heck, not even Sind had been written up back then, IIRC - the X4/5/10 series presented the lands west of Darokin as mostly unsettled frontier, with Sayr Ulan as a 'tent city' set up by the Nomads as a beachhead for the Master's invasion.)
Sure, but to be fair to Savage Coast, you can't simply disregard everything that went between the Master Set and the AD&D SC book.
Especially, the SC AD&D books did not consider Thyatis involvement in the SC as a major problem because Thyatis, as it was portrayed after DotE and WotI was certainly not able to exert much influence in western regions.
Even though VotPA stated that the Master's Map was all wrong, that doesnt mean we have to discard it completely.
Sure, only that we can't take it at face value.
I like OldDawgs take on the "Thyatis region" as being their sphere of interest over the last 100 years.
I definitely disagree with this idea, since Thyatis has had much greater interests in the Isle of Dawn, the Jungle Coast and even the Savage Coast than in any northern nation, with the exclusion Oceansend, possibly Landfall, and the developing of alliances with Ostland and Wendar.
I am also inclined to keep many of the other names, but with borders shrunk considerably and/or moved around.
Sure, with some exceptions -- Dorfin IV and the Great Khan should definitely go ;)
For example, we know that there are no Gnomes in the Savage Coast, something that would be quite unlikely if there was a gigantic gnomish empire right north of it.
And we already have a Great Khan in Ethengar, no point in having two of them (only to have to explain why they are there).
Myself, I'm much more inclined to keep more recent (and usually more fitting) references -- e.g., we know that the mountains of Skothar north of Tangor Bay house White Sherkasta of tibetan/nepalese culture, which are IMO much more interesting than yet another Great Khan.
On questions about Amazons in Mystara in the VotPA letters column Bruce suggested the Mariarchy of Pelatan as a possible location for such a culture and added :"Perhaps the old Thyatian map wasn't all wrong afterall" (or something to that effect, referring to the Master Set Map).
We should also keep in mind that VotPA presents the subjective views of an Alphatian Prince. He has discovered some mistakes in the Thyatian Maps which lead him to declare them "completely wrong", perhaps also fuelled by his dislike for Thyatians?
This is almost certainly the case. I don't recall specifics offhand, but I believe that several of the conceits of that first episode of the VotPA were invalidated by later developments in Haldemar's journeys- notably something to the effect of some of the names he scoffed as being ridiculous Thyatian names actually turning out to be the real names of those places (offhand, I want to say that Cestia turns out to be an actual name, when Haldemar says it isn't).
For example, we know that there are no Gnomes in the Savage Coast, something that would be quite unlikely if there was a gigantic gnomish empire right north of it.
... hmmm, let's see. Who pegged 'Dorfin IV' as a gnome? Oh WAIT, that's right, it was HALDEMAR! The same guy who said that the 'Empire of Dorfin IV' never existed in the first place!
I mean, seriously. I don't mind the new Mystara as created by the Gazeteers and VotPA. But claiming that 'old' Mystara was silly and needs to be changed when the only elements of silliness were retconned in by the new Mystara material is fairly absurd. Yes, 'Dorfin' is a name fairly similar to that of Tolkien's dwarves. Doesn't mean he is one, regardless of Haldemar's chauvinism.
I mean, seriously. I don't mind the new Mystara as created by the Gazeteers and VotPA. But claiming that 'old' Mystara was silly and needs to be changed when the only elements of silliness were retconned in by the new Mystara material is fairly absurd. Yes, 'Dorfin' is a name fairly similar to that of Tolkien's dwarves. Doesn't mean he is one, regardless of Haldemar's chauvinism.
Uhm, actually claiming that Hule (note: something that existed pre-Gazetteers) is a dependance of some enormous empire that exists in an area otherwise shown as empty (see Dungeon Magazine 6-7) is much more arbitrary, and fairly silly as well.
Still, I think that applying "old" Mystara concepts to "new" Mystara discussions (as in any discussion about the Savage Coast) is wholly inappropriate.
Sure, only that we can't take it at face value.
Agreed.
I definitely disagree with this idea, since Thyatis has had much greater interests in the Isle of Dawn, the Jungle Coast and even the Savage Coast than in any northern nation, with the exclusion Oceansend, possibly Landfall, and the developing of alliances with Ostland and Wendar.
I dont see these as mutually exclusive. It seems clear that the expansion to the east and south was more successful and perhaps more of an effort was put into it, but that doesn't mean there were no attempts at expanding in the north(west).
Sure, with some exceptions -- Dorfin IV and the Great Khan should definitely go ;)
For example, we know that there are no Gnomes in the Savage Coast, something that would be quite unlikely if there was a gigantic gnomish empire right north of it.
And we already have a Great Khan in Ethengar, no point in having two of them (only to have to explain why they are there).
I agree that the facts you point our need to be taken into account. I would still like to have a Gnomish kingdom though, but it could be small and hidden away in the far western part of the region with that marking. It could also be linked to the Earthshaker, although LoZompatore places those Gnomes in the Black Mountains.
With the Great Khan, a regular Mongolian-inspired realm would be redundant, but at the same time, Skothar was home of the Jennite horseman civilization. Having some sort of horsefolk live their in a great kingdom of sorts would make sense. The name Khan could be replaced by King or something similar though.
Myself, I'm much more inclined to keep more recent (and usually more fitting) references -- e.g., we know that the mountains of Skothar north of Tangor Bay house White Sherkasta of tibetan/nepalese culture, which are IMO much more interesting than yet another Great Khan.
Even though we already have Tibetan Monks in Glantri, I would gladly accept the White Sherekasta in that area. Ofcourse, Skothar is big and Mystaran realms usually small so there is no reason not to throw in the lot!
Havard
Uhm, actually claiming that Hule (note: something that existed pre-Gazetteers) is a dependance of some enormous empire that exists in an area otherwise shown as empty (see Dungeon Magazine 6-7) is much more arbitrary, and fairly silly as well.
Still, I think that applying "old" Mystara concepts to "new" Mystara discussions (as in any discussion about the Savage Coast) is wholly inappropriate.
... okay, let me explain myself. I don't want to force older-style Mentzer KW stuff onto the current Mystara canon where it doesn't fit; if I came across that way, my apologies. I have no problem using old canon as inspiration for a more vivid and interesting 'new' Mystara, where it works, but I don't want to weaken Mystara by forcing square pegs into round holes, either.
That said, I think it's also fair to accept "old" Mystara, as presented in the boxed sets and the X and CM modules, as a world as interesting and viable as "new" Mystara. It's entirely possible, in my book, to respect and appreciate the worldbuilding put forward by Frank Mentzer and the other designers of the 80s, as something separate from "new" Mystara in most respects. I've unfortunately run into a lot of people on the Internet who seem to think that the only good way to talk up their Favorite Setting is to attack and disparage all competition, rather than going to the effort to make their preferred setting stand out and shine, and so I'm sensitive to anything that seems to be going that route. Again, if I misinterpreted matters, my apologies.
I do think, though, that the best way to approach Variant Mystara concepts and the notion of "modern-day Mystara canon" is not to claim that stuff existing in a Mystara variant is 'silly' but instead to just say 'doesn't fit well with...'. No value judgements. Just facts.
I dont see these as mutually exclusive. It seems clear that the expansion to the east and south was more successful and perhaps more of an effort was put into it, but that doesn't mean there were no attempts at expanding in the north(west).
Except that to send legions across vaste expanses of rugged terrain without supply lines to conquer regions that are strategically meaningless when you can't keep relatively rich and nearby regions (like Traladara or Ierendi) and you are faced with a much stronger threat exactly in the opposite direction is not really a good idea ;)
The Savage Coast, Jungle Coast and Oceansend make some sense because Thyatis is the strongest naval power outside the Ierendi territorial waters, and could keep supply lines through the sea. But given that they weren't able to keep Oceansend or Landfall long enough, I don't see how they could expand further inland.
I agree that the facts you point our need to be taken into account. I would still like to have a Gnomish kingdom though, but it could be small and hidden away in the far western part of the region with that marking. It could also be linked to the Earthshaker, although LoZompatore places those Gnomes in the Black Mountains.
Earthshaker gnomes were later set into Davania (see AC11: the Norwold Earthshaker comes from Davania, which is said to be populated by gnomes on Earthshakers). Bruce later expanded this hint into the Snartan Empire.
With the Great Khan, a regular Mongolian-inspired realm would be redundant, but at the same time, Skothar was home of the Jennite horseman civilization. Having some sort of horsefolk live their in a great kingdom of sorts would make sense. The name Khan could be replaced by King or something similar though.
Indeed, it would be redundant, and there are already the Jennites as the main horsemen civilization of Skothar. Obviously, there may be many nomadic tribes, but no Great Khan (and most likely no large empire).
Even though we already have Tibetan Monks in Glantri, I would gladly accept the White Sherekasta in that area. Ofcourse, Skothar is big and Mystaran realms usually small so there is no reason not to throw in the lot!
There, the problem is more with the monks in Glantri (as if we didn't have enough ethnic groups in Glantri!!) than with the Tagh themselves -- who BTW, don't need to be monks.
GP
... okay, let me explain myself. I don't want to force older-style Mentzer KW stuff onto the current Mystara canon where it doesn't fit; if I came across that way, my apologies. I have no problem using old canon as inspiration for a more vivid and interesting 'new' Mystara, where it works, but I don't want to weaken Mystara by forcing square pegs into round holes, either.
I agree with most of what you're saying. What I don't appreciate is when a discussion on one of the versions gets diverted by arguments that come from different (and clearly incompatible) versions -- because then the discussion doesn't make much sense anymore: so, if I say that AD&D Savage Coast should not be blamed for not considering the possibility of a Thyatian invasion of the area, saying "Thyatis already occupied the lands beyond the Icereach Range, the SC is much nearer" doesn't make any sense, because we are speaking of two totally incompatible versions of the setting.
Actually, of the two most distant ones, Master Set vs post-WotI/AD&D Mystara. The two depict two worlds that are basically similar only in world shape and some names, and otherwise very different.
I'm not certain about totally incompatible--there's room for compromise, fudging, and a bit of stretching. But clearly both can't be accepted at face value
I agree. If we go with the WotI timeline, things in CM1 and the Master Set may be in contradiction at various points, but that doesnt mean they should have to be discarded completely. For instance, the fact that Thyatis conquered lands to the south and east while also building up a defence against Alphatia, that doesnt mean they could not have sent some units to the north or colonists to the Savage Coast...
Havard
I agree. If we go with the WotI timeline, things in CM1 and the Master Set may be in contradiction at various points, but that doesnt mean they should have to be discarded completely. For instance, the fact that Thyatis conquered lands to the south and east while also building up a defence against Alphatia, that doesnt mean they could not have sent some units to the north or colonists to the Savage Coast...
Havard
indeed.
for this point specificially, it could simply mean that the designers, in their infinite wisdom, simply left out crucial tidbits of information. what happened in the north and south to make those regions so ripe for thyatian domination? what's the storyline there--the underlying forces? could these regions, who may have simply been down for a brief time, become self-empowered and throw off the thyatian yoke? i think there's a lot of room for the imagination of the fan community to come up with background details that further enrich the world.
On the VotPA vs AD&D versions of the Savage Coast, I'm likely to think that both are correct from a certain viewpoint. Perhaps drug addiction turned into a more widespread curse... or maybe the curse let the locals to be predisposed to drug addiction?
Either way, the larger area described in the 2e stuff is easily explained via the timeline and the Week Without Magic and subsequent Days of Dread.
Food for thought,
Roger
In my mind, the Mentzer map is absolutely correct, EXCEPT where the Gazetteers and VotPA have overriden it.
This is a good starting point IMO. Although I think a big problem with taking the Master Set map at face value is that the regions are so big. Usually I would not consider these areas as political units, but perhaps cultural ones, named after the most influencial country/nation in the region. Some were also revised in the map that appeared in the HW set and later in the RC.
Here are some of my thoughts on some of the Master Set Regions:
BRUN
Hyborea: A northern region inhabited by Ice Trolls, Humanoids and Qauriks.
Empire of Dorfin IV: The Empire of Dorfin just a tiny Gnomish kingdom located in the mountains near the western coast of what’s marked off as that region on the map.
Southhold: An old Thyatian name for the Savage Coast.
Arm of God/Arm of the Immortals: As detailed in VotPA
Borea: a vast collection of humanoid kingdoms.
DAVANIA
Izonda: An Arabic/North African influenced region populated by Ylarii colonists, Tangors etc.
Adakkia: Name refers to the mountainous region. The ancient Halfling realm of Kenaron is found within this region.
Matriarchy of Pelatan: The actual Matriarchy of Pelatan is found by the Bay of Pelatan. They are descendants of emigrants from the old Milenian Empire. Other descendants of the Milenians may also be found within this region. It also covers “Arica” and much of this region is populated by dark skinned Tangors once having emigrated from Skothar.
Arypt: Largely Rakastan (Simbasta) area, though there is room for much more.
Lower Arypt: This area contains the Lost Valley. Likely an Isle of Dread-like realm. Possibly with links to the Hollow World.
Barbarians (not united): This region is renamed the Aryptian Basin in the RC map. The Almanacs give some canon info on this region.
Brasol: The jungle areas contain various south American inspired cultures, as does parts of the Brasol mountains. These are likely descendants of the Oltecs and Azcans. The Brasol mountains are also home of the remains of the Golden Empire from the Mystaros timeline (Gold Dragons mostly).
Vulcania: This is the name of a region. Snartans and Alphatian colonies are found in this region as are Savage elves featured in the VotPA series.
Four Kingdoms, the: Hinterlands and other areas detailed in the Almanacs.
SKOTHAR
Thonia: Descendants of the original Thonian Empire settled here. Hard to say what their culture is like now. I wouldn’t mind seeing a proper MRussia. This could be the place for it. The region also contains the Bay of Thorin which is home to various dwarven cultures, including cliff dwarves or even seagoing dwarves.
Nentsun: I think I will go with the stuff on Pandius for this region. Ruins of Old Blackmoor may be found here and ancient artefacts from that era.
Minea: Greek style pirates. Minotaurs may also have a realm here.
Empire of Tangor: This large area is home to a large number of African inspired cultures. Perhaps mainly East African cultures should be used as inspiration here: Kenyans, Ethiopians, Somalians, Sudanese etc. The northwestern part is home to many asian inspired cultures (MIndochina etc). There are Tibetan style Rakasta in the northern mountains. IMO the region should be less mountainous than it appears on the world maps
Jen: As per DotE
Empire of the Great Khan: Horse-people related to the Jennites. As usual the region is too large to be dominated by one single culture. I would like to make some connection between this region and the ancient Ethengars even though their cultures should be different.
OTHER
Sea Kingdoms: A bigger version of what’s presented in PC2.
Havard
Here are some of my thoughts on some of the Master Set Regions:
Matriarchy of Pelatan: The actual Matriarchy of Pelatan is found by the Bay of Pelatan. They are descendants of emigrants from the old Milenian Empire. Other descendants of the Milenians may also be found within this region. It also covers “Arica” and much of this region is populated by dark skinned Tangors once having emigrated from Skothar.
IIRC, Varellya was listed as a separate region on the old Mentzer map, so it might be a good idea to have something for that region. Also, if we want to use the migration maps in the HW boxed set, there is/was a Varellyan presence around Pelatan, so the culture there could have an admixture from the fallen kingdom.
Geoff
IIRC, Varellya was listed as a separate region on the old Mentzer map, so it might be a good idea to have something for that region. Also, if we want to use the migration maps in the HW boxed set, there is/was a Varellyan presence around Pelatan, so the culture there could have an admixture from the fallen kingdom.
No it wasn't on the Master's Map. The HW migration map does indeed identify a break off group of Milennians going towards the Pelatan Shield arriving at the coast around 800 BC. I have never been clear on the Varellyans or in which source they first appeared. Are they from VotPA?
The migration maps also show Tangor colonizers arriving on the eastern tip of Vulcania and in Izonda.
Havard
Ya know, the more I read the materials (GAZ's, etc.), I start to think that I'm more of a "Known World" guy and less of a "Mystara" one. ;)
Each to his own I guess...
Empire of Tangor: This large area is home to a large number of African inspired cultures. Perhaps mainly East African cultures should be used as inspiration here: Kenyans, Ethiopians, Somalians, Sudanese etc. The northwestern part is home to many asian inspired cultures (MIndochina etc). There are Tibetan style Rakasta in the northern mountains. IMO the region should be less mountainous than it appears on the world maps
Note that another culture in the Tangor Bay area is formed of M-Indonesian Sherkasta (tiger-like Rakasta) and Cloud Pardasta (from the Campaign Classics article).
OTHER
Sea Kingdoms: A bigger version of what’s presented in PC2.
An hint to this region may be given in the SC MCA, Sea Hermit entry.
The Sea Hermit ( http://www.pandius.com/seahermi.html ) is a not-so-nice envoy from secret undersea kingdoms.
These kingdoms may be located in the SC seas, but may also be beyond the Arm of the Immortal -- i.e., they may be the Sea Kingdoms from the Master Set map.
If so, then these kingdoms probably are somewhat different from what presented in PC2 -- different creatures, maybe, but mostly a nastier outlook on surface dwellers.
GP
Each to his own I guess...
I don't mean I dislike all the background on Mystara. It just seems like so much to take in, and I know in my games the players would just ignore 90% of the fluff. It's a question of ROI (Return On Investment). I don't have enough spare time anymore to try and get all this "canon" straight in my head and present it to the players, just to have them say "Meh, whatever. Where's the dungeon?"
I have never been clear on the Varellyans or in which source they first appeared. Are they from VotPA?
Yes, they were featured in a VotPA article, I think it was just before Haldemar met the N'djatwa.
Geoff
I don't mean I dislike all the background on Mystara. It just seems like so much to take in, and I know in my games the players would just ignore 90% of the fluff. It's a question of ROI (Return On Investment). I don't have enough spare time anymore to try and get all this "canon" straight in my head and present it to the players, just to have them say "Meh, whatever. Where's the dungeon?"
Okay, now I'm with you
When it comes to actual play, my campaign has rarely left the Known World. The exceptions being a mini-campaign on the Savage Coast and a short-lived Freeport Campain set somewhere in the Sea of Dread.
I've also found that the most successful campaigns to my experience have been those set in a relatively small area, covering one country at the most.
I enjoy discussing the rest of Mystara though. It also quite often gives me ideas for new campaigns or new locations to set my campaigns in
Havard
Yes, they were featured in a VotPA article, I think it was just before Haldemar met the N'djatwa.
Thanks, I thought it was in VotPA, but couldnt remember where I'd seen it.
BTW: I noticed the wordings of my previous post to you could be percieved a little arrogant-sounding. Hopefully you didnt read it that way
Havard
Note that another culture in the Tangor Bay area is formed of M-Indonesian Sherkasta (tiger-like Rakasta) and Cloud Pardasta (from the Campaign Classics article).
P
Technically speaking, GP, those Campaign classics are fan-variants, not canon, even if they are written by BH.
It just seems like so much to take in, and I know in my games the players would just ignore 90% of the fluff.
The literature accrual is a big problem for our game setting [note the recent thread over recommended sources for newcomers] or any world that was in production for as long as the Known World/Mystara was.
If you were there at the beginning, it was a great ride, with information coming in digestible chunks. But now decade(s) later, a newcomer says "I've got to go through all that to play ?!?" and doesn't bother.
Fortunately, Mystara is a very modular setting (like Eldersphinx pointed out) - its pieces could even be inserted into other settings, just gloss over any history beyond the last century. You don't need everything to start and play.
That's one of the reasons we're doing the system neutral world guide project. You'll have a snap shot of what's available, an idea of how it could all tie together, but not so much that the weight of it all is too great to bear.
-OldDawg
Technically speaking, GP, those Campaign classics are fan-variants, not canon, even if they are written by BH.
Being published by TSR/WotC, I'd say Dragon Magazine articles are canon, not fan variants.
You might argue that, say, the HK gazetteer is not canon, and that's ok.
Dragon Magazine, OTOH, has always been considered official, since it was published by TSR/WotC as a way to add official material to D&D and its campaign settings.
If DM is not considered canon, then why should the Master Set or the Gazetteers be considered canon?
Being published by TSR/WotC, I'd say Dragon Magazine articles are canon, not fan variants.
You might argue that, say, the HK gazetteer is not canon, and that's ok.
Dragon Magazine, OTOH, has always been considered official, since it was published by TSR/WotC as a way to add official material to D&D and its campaign settings.
If DM is not considered canon, then why should the Master Set or the Gazetteers be considered canon?
Basically? Level of editorial oversight.
Dragon's editorial staff was a separate beastie from Known World/Gazeteer design staff, thus there's no guarantee that the Dragon material is guaranteed to fit with the in-house KW material. Dragon was also on a much tighter deadline than the GAZ line - "Fill 80 pages of content a month, PERIOD" and so had less time to get things right.
(Note that for the VotPA articles, the first concern doesn't necessarily apply since the primary author was the head of the Known World design team at the time. Second concern applies in spades, though, since that one-month-deadline crunch is on not just the editing team but the writer as well.)
Basically, I'd expect the GAZ line to have better error-checking and more attention to detail than anything published in Dragon - just because of the natures of the respective beasts. Thus, where GAZ products conflict with Dragon material, GAZ lineup wins.
Personally I agree with Agathokles on this one though. The things that are published by TSR/WotC/Paizo is canon. Ofcourse there is a hierarchy of canon, as some of this material is contradictory. The old TSR rule was that whatever was published the latest was "official". As Mystara is no longer supported, we don't have to worry too much about that. The general consensus here seems to be that the Gazetteers take presedence over much of what was published later.
For Dragon, the material written by Bruce Heard IMO solidly belongs within canon as he is the Gygax to our Greyhawk. Paizo material is perhaps the most tricky, but I don't see any of it as problematic.
In some ways fan made material may also be considered canon, if to a lesser degree, if it is accepted by the general communiy as such. Fan inventions such as the Outer Beings seem to be widely accepted by our community. Net Almanacs and Fan Gazetteers also seem to carry quite a bit of weight.
The thing about canon though, is that it only really matters for discussions in this community. When each of us gets back to our gaming tables, we decide what our Mystara is like. But for discussions, too big deviations from canon will usually find less interest among other fans, since it will be even harder to fit with their own tweaks of the setting.
Havard
This was meant in two ways:
1) just a bit of good nature riposting giving what went on earlier in the thread concerning Thyatian colonies (ahem) ;)
and
2) actually, no articles in Dungeon or Dragon are ever official in terms of game systems or game worlds (preview articles exempted). It's been that way from the very beginning. They are best thought of like Marvel's old "What If?" comics - possibilities. Meant to entertain, sell issues and hopefully generate product sales, but never official.
Barbarians and ninjas weren't official until Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures, despite having appeared in Dragon previously. Forgotten Realms wasn't a TSR/WotC setting until they bought the rights from Ed Greenwood, despite numerous tales from Elminster. Most recently, Savage Tide, as yet, never officially occurred in Greyhawk - it's just a Paizo What If?
And I'm pretty certain that there is no Ronald McDonald knock-off in the Nine Hells (for those who have never read this side-splitting article - complete with Non Servus devils - you have my pity)
Once Gygax released the reins of Dragon, the magazines have had different leadership than that of the parent company or the product line-heads (whether in-house under Roger Moore and others, or out-sourced as was the case until recently with Paizo). Some back-channel approvals here and there, but mostly the magazines have been on their own.
Consider VoPA - something that *technically* was not canon at the time of print.
TSR didn't tell Dragon that they needed to run a Known World/Mystara series. Bruce had to pitch the idea as a freelancer, despite the company-perspective synergy of promoting the soon-to-be-released HW. In the end, though, it was Champions of Mystara (via the log book) and Red Steel that put the stamp of official-dom on the version of the Savage Coast that first appeared in Dragon.
Same goes for "Dragons of the Known World" etc. By the time of the "Campaign Classics," Bruce was off to other employment and wrote the articles as a freelancer for the magazine (not as a freelancer for TSR/WotC).
For Dragon, the material written by Bruce Heard IMO solidly belongs within canon as he is the Gygax to our Greyhawk. Paizo material is perhaps the most tricky, but I don't see any of it as problematic.
Meaning no disrespect to either Gary or Bruce, but there's the problem. Your transfering previously existing authority to subsequent works when, contractually, the situation had changed. WotC didn't hire BH to write new works for the Mystara setting, Paizo/DM hired him to write a special one-off for their periodic salute to defunct systems.
[And actually, Bruce is our Sergeant to Frank's Gygax.
Or is Frank Sergeant to Moldvay's Gygax? And if that's the case, who then is Bruce? or Tim? or Ann?
]In some ways fan made material may also be considered canon, if to a lesser degree, if it is accepted by the general communiy as such.
And we've coined a term for that - fanonical. The breed articles are fanonical (and of a higher order of fanonicity, if that's a word, than most everything else before or since) in that they are commonly (if not universally) accepted despite the lack of product-line endorsement from the company of record.
-OldDawg
[Piacere una domanda, signore. Ho letto il filetto riguardo alla mia richiesta della guida. Che cosa ho fatto o detto generare tale animosità dai vostri countrymen del collega? Mi ricordo di che DM era molto il confrontational quando ho liberato Wendar e Denagoth, ma è là una più grande cose di cui non sono informato?]
I've also found that the most successful campaigns to my experience have been those set in a relatively small area, covering one country at the most.
You've had the opposite of my experience. My gaming group prefers to have wide-ranging campaigns. Adventures and story arcs that take them to Kelvin, to Rhoona, to Pramayama, to Magden. Without the material in the gazetteers and modules, I could never have managed such a campaign. Of course, I had to come up with a story that would reasonably take them to these far-flung destinations. That story sprang out of my 'artificial world' concept.
The Builders of Mystara, some of whom had stayed with the world to oversee the various systems of the world (artificial gravity, weather generation/control, etc), were faced with a dire threat from somewhere else in the galaxy. They had to leave Mystara, hoping to return at some point in the future. As a last resort back up, the left a set of 'keys' on Mystara that, when gathered and correctly activated, would grant Mystarans access the the world's control center. That was several thousand years ago, long before the rise and fall of Blackmoor. After all that time, some of the world's systems were beginning to fail, due in large part to the Great Rain of Fire. The sinking of the Serpent peninsula, floating mountains in Alphatia, were some of the symptoms.
The existence and nature of the 12 keys became known to certain powerful people in Mystara, some interested in 'repairing' the world, others hoping to wrest control of it. Adventurers were dispatched to locate and find these keys, and teams from competing powers encountered each other, fighting over clues or the keys themselves. As the search intensified, various powers began to ally with one another, and soon entire nations were beginning to take sides, involving their militaries in support of the searching parties.
I expanded the concept of X4 and X5 into a 'world war,' much like real world Europe during WWI. From Hule to Thyatis to Ostland, various nations ended up on one of two sides who litterally waged a war covering most of the original known world and beyond. All for the sake of gathering all the Keys of the World.
What were these keys? Well, I borrowed from a well known fantasy author, Fred Saberhagen. The keys were essentially the Twelve Swords. Thus, the great war of AC 1003 to 1006 was known as the War of Swords....
2) actually, no articles in Dungeon or Dragon are ever official in terms of game systems or game worlds (preview articles exempted). It's been that way from the very beginning. They are best thought of like Marvel's old "What If?" comics - possibilities. Meant to entertain, sell issues and hopefully generate product sales, but never official.
That's not what it says in the Dragon cover. It says "100% official content", and, therefore, it should be definitely considered canon.
Otherwise, nowhere in any B/X/CM module the name Mystara is mentioned -- therefore those are not official/canon for this game world.
Consider VoPA - something that *technically* was not canon at the time of print.
Actually, that's exactly what happened, AFAIK. They did need to run an OD&D support series within DM.
TSR did run Dragon Magazine internally at the time, BTW.
[Piacere una domanda, signore. Ho letto il filetto riguardo alla mia richiesta della guida. Che cosa ho fatto o detto generare tale animosità dai vostri countrymen del collega?
Frankly, I haven't the faintest idea, except for Aia's problem (which I saw in the Ochalea thread you are aware of).
Mi ricordo di che DM era molto il confrontational quando ho liberato Wendar e Denagoth, ma è là una più grande cose di cui non sono informato?]
Once more, I can't say. I remember that DM did some work on Wendar and Denagoth, and the other guys did some work on Norwold, maybe he/they did't like the way you developed those area, but, really, I don't know much about this.
GP
That's not what it says in the Dragon cover. It says "100% official content", and, therefore, it should be definitely considered canon.
... um, dude? That "100% Official Content" logo only started appearing once Paizo took over publishing of the magazine. Earlier issues - like, y'know, every single issue with VotPA content - didn't have it.
Dunno how you want to approach YOUR canon, but I'm personally not too keen on letting Paizo Marketing retroactively canonize 27 years' worth of freelancer articles simply by slapping a logo on the front of their magazine, thanks.
BTW: I noticed the wordings of my previous post to you could be percieved a little arrogant-sounding. Hopefully you didnt read it that way
Nope, not at all, Havard! Even if it was, I tend to overlook that sort of thing, unless it gets personal or is grossly impolite. Call me old-fashioned, but IMO the Internet is too indirect a medium of communication to accurately express one's feelings, and to be certain that one's tone is properly understood. Besides, life is too short to get wound up in that way! :D
Geoff
PS - If you hear any strange noises outside your window, or scrabbling noises from within your walls, don't worry. I've told them not to hurt you.
... um, dude? That "100% Official Content" logo only started appearing once Paizo took over publishing of the magazine. Earlier issues - like, y'know, every single issue with VotPA content - didn't have it.
Dunno how you want to approach YOUR canon, but I'm personally not too keen on letting Paizo Marketing retroactively canonize 27 years' worth of freelancer articles simply by slapping a logo on the front of their magazine, thanks.
I think Agathokles was referring to the Campaign Classics issues which were published under the Paizo regime. As to VotPA, most of it was later published in CoM, so does it matter? I didnt even realize that the Dragon magazine articles were all that controversial? The fact that the product line manager of the Gazetteer line wrote 90% Dragon articles in question should also count for something IMO.
However, the point about canon as I understand it, is that it is determined by what either a) the company supporting the setting (ie N/A) or b) the fan community accepts collectively as official. Obviously this will be a fluid situation, and room for disagreement and even flame wars. Also, the hierarchy of canon material is open for discussion. I could see how DrM stuff could be regarded lower in the hierarchy than the gazetteers for instance...
Havard
I think Agathokles was referring to the Campaign Classics issues which were published under the Paizo regime.
I'm specifically saying that every OD&D or Mystara article in the VotPA, Known World Grimoire, and Campaign Classics is canon for Mystara.
None of these were written by freelancers, BTW, contrary to several Gazetteers. If that is the figure of merit, then practically all Mystaran DM articles rank above several (if not most) Gazetteers (e.g., Minrothad, Ylaruam, Northern Reaches).
BTW, the label started with Paizo not because they produced better material, but because before outsourcing Dragon it was obvious that all material in it was canon -- especially setting material.
The fact that Dragon was full of variant rules material is completely irrelevant, since rules additions are obviously optional -- Barbarians and similar classes were never core rules material, not even when published in Unearthed Arcana.
On the other hand, setting material was definitely canonic.
I'm specifically saying that every OD&D or Mystara article in the VotPA, Known World Grimoire, and Campaign Classics is canon for Mystara.
None of these were written by freelancers, BTW, contrary to several Gazetteers. If that is the figure of merit, then practically all Mystaran DM articles rank above several (if not most) Gazetteers (e.g., Minrothad, Ylaruam, Northern Reaches).
My comment about freelance work was not that the writer was a freelancer vs. being a staffer but that the freelancing was for the magazine rather than the company's product line. It's a question of whether the entity/sub-entity cutting the check for work done had oversight authority over the setting.
Many staffers of the era (and I assume still) doubled as freelancers for the magazines, a few did it the other way, and another large group were freelancers the whole way round.
I was making a business point, nothing more than that. But here's how Bruce himself described the situation in regards to VoPA (emphasis mine):
I maintained a sketch list of ideas for a few adventures ahead of time. These went from just a sentence or two to a couple paragraphs' worth of thoughts about a place or a general adventure theme. Some where pretty hare-brained ideas I dared not publish. Very often, adventure plots happened as the result of the magazine's editor-in-chief waving a magical wand called "DEADLINE" -- which suddenly made me very creative and industrious.
VotPA started out as something that no-one expected to see last very long in Dragon Magazine. As such, there never was any long term plans or serious concept development prior to the beginning of the series in the magazine. VotPA kind of invented itself along the way and was retained by the magazine as a regular feature because it quickly became very popular. There is something such as successful tapdancing when circumstances demand it. Don't try this at home. Usually, this does not work.
-OldDawg
I was making a business point, nothing more than that.
Businness points are irrelevant to canon/non-canon issue, though.
What we are discussing is not who edited what (who cares?) but what products (articles, modules, etc.) were expressely designed to support Mystara.
The DM articles were expressely designed to support Mystara.
Indeed, Bruce said as much elsewhere:
I still kept in touch with (old-style) Mystara through a magazine series devoted to the Princess Ark, a flying ship travelling the world of Mystara. The series lasted three years in Dragon magazine, up until the magazine folks decided they would no longer provide full-time support for Mystara.
Which means it was originally designed to provide full time support to Mystara.
So, to wrap up the matter, the magazine vs. "product line" break seems to me completely arbitrary. Both were published by the same company for the same purpose (i.e., TSR and Dragon Magazine are not distinct entities).
The fact that Bruce had deadlines for writing his magazine column is frankly as irrelevant as you can get -- what did you expect from a magazine column?
Do you assume that Sage Advice did not give official answers to rules questions just because Skip Williams had a deadline for each issue?
The fact that Bruce didn't plan VotPA issues in advance has any effect on whether TSR endorsed his articles or not? I don't think so.
Finally, note that "canon" in Mystara is defined by consensus only, since TSR never even acknowledged Mystara as a coherent entity before AD&D, at least in print -- it didn't even have a name!
That "canon" is what is "product-line-endorsed" is your own definition, which need not be accepted by anyone else.
Finally, note that "canon" in Mystara is defined by consensus only, since TSR never even acknowledged Mystara as a coherent entity before AD&D, at least in print -- it didn't even have a name!
Just a minot nitpick. The name Mystara appeared in a few of the last Classic D&D products such as the RC, Wrath of the Immortals and Champions of Mystara.
Other than that I agree with you.
Havard