Can anyone help out with identifying this?
There's a thread somewhere about Athas entering into an ice age. Some pretty good ideas where in it. I can't remember who started it or the name of the thread though.
Can anyone help out with identifying this?
I can. It's at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=286827
It's been... I don't know, maybe a year since I've been on the boards? Anyone still remember me? :PHi Lyric!! I remember you. :D
Hey sage!!! How ya been!! :D
thanks, I'll take a look.
Pika! Of course! Old Fogeys like us have to stick together.
happy days. :P I'm just curious with this thread if anyone thinks Athas is still Athas if it's not dessert and if it's not defilers rule, preservers drool most of the time. :P I see athas as this "bad guys are in power" type setting.. kinda like in star wars when the sith are in power and the jedi are down to just Luke.. except that the common people would kill luke for witchcraft or something :P lol.. and blame him for their lot in life..
I don't know, I get the feeling people would prefer Athas stay as is rather than advance to something else or regress to something it once was.Personally, I'm more of a fan of releasing the Warbringer than creating a bunch of Avangions... mostly because its' more exstreem. :P
true, true, I've turned the ripe old age of 27 this month.
I'm just curious with this thread if anyone thinks Athas is still Athas if it's not dessert and if it's not defilers rule, preservers drool most of the time. :P I see athas as this "bad guys are in power" type setting.. kinda like in star wars when the sith are in power and the jedi are down to just Luke.. except that the common people would kill luke for witchcraft or something :P lol.. and blame him for their lot in life..
Personally, I'm more of a fan of releasing the Warbringer than creating a bunch of Avangions... mostly because its' more exstreem. :P
I'd love to see the return of some old Champions that have been fighting against their race for the past 2,000 years that Rajaat has been away. Maybe a Gnoll Skinner and a Illithid Desolver return to the Tablelands after finishing off their races. An Additional 2,000 years of magical death tech advancement could be interesting, especially if you look at the cultural development of the armies involved and the other non-Rebirth races they might have come into contact with. That didn't happen in the Tablelands because of the influence of the SK's and old Boyrs, but, I think it would be interesting...
I don't think there's enough water on Athas to create an ice age with glaciers...
Hey, did you notice the dragons, magic and giants? Me too...
And welcome back, Lyric!!
So, has anyone playtested avangions and dragons using the rules our buddies at Athas.org pumped out? Speaking of which, have they gotten far enough along to define SotL and Elemental AB's?
thanks for the welcome back ;) missed you all :D
So, has anyone playtested avangions and dragons using the rules our buddies at Athas.org pumped out? Speaking of which, have they gotten far enough along to define SotL and Elemental AB's?
Elemental AB's will be part of Legends of Athas, and SotL will be forthcoming too. They are being worked on.
I am about to do some playtesting of the dragon rules personally (in game as a DM, so far it's just been theoretical stuff that's in my head, a place even I don't like to be sometimes) so I'll let you know what happens. If the PC's bite the dust, I'll know they work.
...If the PC's bite the dust, I'll know they work.
hence the reason for both a character tree, and for a DM's continued joy in DMing
what about a return of various former races? Mysteriously saved by a time traveling Avangion or something? :P
That could certainly make for an interesting story. Especially if it backfires on the Avangion and the race brought starts off another huge genocidal war in retribution for there own destruction :angelhide
thanks for the welcome back ;) missed you all :D
So, has anyone playtested avangions and dragons using the rules our buddies at Athas.org pumped out? Speaking of which, have they gotten far enough along to define SotL and Elemental AB's?
The current version of the Dragon and Avangion rules are absolutely excellent, I've played with them several times and have nothing but good things to say about them, except I slightly modified the Avangion with a sort of All-Out_Attack to match the Dragon's spell/psionics per round capabilities. However, I got word at the same time about the nature of the Elemental ABs and the Sotl, as well as the next revision of Dragons and Avangions. For some reason, the boys making the stuff decided to water down and depower EVERYTHING, for the sake of "balance" or some such reason. Seriously not looking forward to seeing the newer, weaker Dragon and Avangion. The Advanced Beings are seeming far less..... advanced, if the rumor I heard is true. The whole point of ABs is ruthless, overwhelming power, not balance. That's the whole reason for Metamorphosis in the first place, to grant powers and abilities beyond what normal character levels provide. Keep turning the power down, and a lot of people will be disillusioned and maybe migrate to a different setting.
Another strange rumor I heard is that they're going to include GNOLLS on one of Athas' MOONS, with a champion trying to kill them all. Seriously lame, and I hope the idea gets crushed before seeing release. Lunar gnolls........What's next, Ooze and Time elemental ABs, and undead Jackalopes? The Oba's new palace being converted into a Gingerbread house? Rajaat coming back, and turning the moons to green cheese? What the heck is going on in the Templarate?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Athas is about BRUTALITY and POWER, not making it so that if Elminster ever found his way to Athas, he'd be able to kill every SK without breaking a sweat. ABs are supposed to wield GOD-LIKE power, not be balanced in power with any other Epic prestige class. Using transformational spells to permanently alter a character negates the need for class levels to seem balanced, an approximate CR is all that's really necessary. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the direction things are going and am REALLY disappointed that the official stuff is taking such a freakin retarded direction. One of the excuses I heard for the weakened Dragon and Avangion is that they are trying to balance them with the Elemental ABs. Why not make the Elementals stronger, or stop trying to make them equal to Arcane ABs altogether? If Elemental ABs were meant to be a match for Arcane ones (And even in 2E, Arcane ones were MUCH stronger, IMO) , then the SK problem would have been solved long ago. Seriously, what the heck are you guys in the Templarate thinking? MAKE ATHAS BRUTAL AND INTERESTING, not boring and over-balanced, or it's going to just suck in the end.
The current version of the Dragon and Avangion rules are absolutely excellent, I've played with them several times and have nothing but good things to say about them, except I slightly modified the Avangion with a sort of All-Out_Attack to match the Dragon's spell/psionics per round capabilities. However, I got word at the same time about the nature of the Elemental ABs and the Sotl, as well as the next revision of Dragons and Avangions. For some reason, the boys making the stuff decided to water down and depower EVERYTHING, for the sake of "balance" or some such reason. Seriously not looking forward to seeing the newer, weaker Dragon and Avangion. The Advanced Beings are seeming far less..... advanced, if the rumor I heard is true. The whole point of ABs is ruthless, overwhelming power, not balance. That's the whole reason for Metamorphosis in the first place, to grant powers and abilities beyond what normal character levels provide. Keep turning the power down, and a lot of people will be disillusioned and maybe migrate to a different setting.
Another strange rumor I heard is that they're going to include GNOLLS on one of Athas' MOONS, with a champion trying to kill them all. Seriously lame, and I hope the idea gets crushed before seeing release. Lunar gnolls........What's next, Ooze and Time elemental ABs, and undead Jackalopes? The Oba's new palace being converted into a Gingerbread house? Rajaat coming back, and turning the moons to green cheese? What the heck is going on in the Templarate?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Athas is about BRUTALITY and POWER, not making it so that if Elminster ever found his way to Athas, he'd be able to kill every SK without breaking a sweat. ABs are supposed to wield GOD-LIKE power, not be balanced in power with any other Epic prestige class. Using transformational spells to permanently alter a character negates the need for class levels to seem balanced, an approximate CR is all that's really necessary. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the direction things are going and am REALLY disappointed that the official stuff is taking such a freakin retarded direction. One of the excuses I heard for the weakened Dragon and Avangion is that they are trying to balance them with the Elemental ABs. Why not make the Elementals stronger, or stop trying to make them equal to Arcane ABs altogether? If Elemental ABs were meant to be a match for Arcane ones (And even in 2E, Arcane ones were MUCH stronger, IMO) , then the SK problem would have been solved long ago. Seriously, what the heck are you guys in the Templarate thinking? MAKE ATHAS BRUTAL AND INTERESTING, not boring and over-balanced, or it's going to just suck in the end.
You shouldn't hear everything Kal says... We really like to play tricks on him.
Nothing is getting watered down on Legends of Athas.
But why would you be playing tricks on the Dread Flayer of Halflings? He's a cool guy, and does great DS work. I've liked everything he came up with. Why play tricks?
I've always seen Dragons as Bestial Brute Strength combined with an insatiable hunger for death and destruction. Avangions were embodiments of learning, wisdom (in an old grandpa sense, not cleric sense :P ), and a strong flowing of power equal to that of a newly formed raging river beating against the walls and riverbanks that barely confine it... An avangion can tap into HUGE amounts of energy for his spells, he's a source himself!
He doesn't phsyically attack but his mental might is staggering and more than a match for a Dragon when fully formed. (just the flavor I see them in).I see Elemental AB's as embodiments of their element that often take on personality traits similar to their patron. Hot-headed and impulsive for fire (Jonny Storm? :P ) Occasionally flighty for wind perhaps, yet with a fierce desire for freedom and a powerful determination once given direction. A stoic, slow and deliberate personality for Earth, one who sets a foundation for his actions and prepares ahead of time. For water a temperament that can lead one to be both beneficial to friends, and deadly to enemies as is the finest poison... torturous if crossed. And so on
Their powers being exponential forms of their element, like a Tsunami vs a water fosset. Make it grand. :DAs for SotL.. haven't given them much thought yet.
I don't know if they'd wanna turn all their lands green, or simply promote the existing echosystems that are there provided there is life.. one may assume a SotL would try to promote the largest echosystem it has or promote them all? Expanding dessert shrubs and wildlife, or expanding green grass may be all the same.. hard to figure.. and they contain the memories and understanding of previous druid masters and former spirits.. (my flavor) Keep turning the power down, and a lot of people will be disillusioned and maybe migrate to a different setting.
What?
I don't think people are attracted to Dark Sun because of the power level of their characters or some such World of Warcraft-like nonsense. I'm fairly certain people are attracted to Dark Sun for its setting color -- the idea of the world -- not its game mechanics or ability to be teh l337 dungeon-haxxor level-master!!!one!!11
ABs are supposed to wield GOD-LIKE power, not be balanced in power with any other Epic prestige class.
3E is a system whose central and guiding principle is that it should be mechanically balanced: the numbers should crunch correctly across the board as an exploitable feature (for both designers and players), so that the numbers actually mean something from character to character or monster to monster and level to level.
So monsters, feats and abilities must be balanced across settings so that a 2CR encounter or a 5th Level character could be seamlessly moved between those settings (whether or not that actually occurs) because the understood definition of that level of power by the rules should not change. I hope they stick to those central principles of good design, and do not veer off into making a mess of broken "kewl".
So, yes, the ABs damn well better be balanced with other Epic prestige classes, otherwise it ends up warped into the mangled wreck of inconsistent and poorly-fit rules that was 2E D&D.
If you want GOD-LIKE power for your ABs above and beyond anything provided by the Epic rules, then perhaps the ABs shouldn't be Epic prestige classes? Are there any 3E rules out for playing godlings and deities? Then use those.
Also remember that magic items, feats, and other PrC's both before and after the transformation still count. No reason once you enter the PrC not to take something that will augment it in a special way. Take a level or 3 in the Jade Phoenix Mage and the Arcane Strike feat (neither of which is OGC, so athas.org can't use it officially) and suddenly your Dragon becomes much more power in physical combat. Focus on casting and take Multispell and Autoquicken spell. If you advance in the correct order, you can net 2 feats at 21st level and get Epic Spellcasting and Autoquicken spell. Then, you take multispell at your next bonus feat (easy ways to grab that quick too, Eldrich Knight?) and suddenly you are ready to cast 1 through 3 level spells and attack at the same time automatically, which is like all out attack 1, 2, and 3.
While these might not be 100 percent accurate (going from sleep deprived memory) that doesn't mean that they aren't possible. There is more to a AB than the class features and the transformation. And depending on what's allowed in your game, you can still rock the party. Especially with the Metamorphosis seed.
What?
I don't think people are attracted to Dark Sun because of the power level of their characters or some such World of Warcraft-like nonsense. I'm fairly certain people are attracted to Dark Sun for its setting color -- the idea of the world -- not its game mechanics or ability to be teh l337 dungeon-haxxor level-master!!!one!!11
Well, I was always attracted to Dark Sun because of the power level of the characters.
Anyone else? :D3E is a system whose central and guiding principle is that it should be mechanically balanced: the numbers should crunch correctly across the board as an exploitable feature (for both designers and players), so that the numbers actually mean something from character to character or monster to monster and level to level.
Advanced beings are mechanically balanced with other characters of similar level in a very simple way. Character "A" has a normal epic progression and a normal level of power, Character "B" is an AB and has what 'seems' a disproportionate amount of power (example, he's always in dragon form, has many innate abilities, he's immortal but not invulnerable, etc). How do they balance? As I said, simple, they make it DANG HARD to become an AB. And then you have a PrC to adv on top of that! I'm sorry, but a PrC that requires nigh impossible to find/learn/cast and get away with Epic spells (that your DM basically has to hand you) in order to aquire, is a pretty good balancing factor. Honestly, if it were that easy, then wouldn't every cleric capable of it simply dual class in psionics and become immortal? Why aren't there Armies of AB clerics?? Good question, maybe it's tough for them to even begin the process also.
I think that's how it balances things out, with game play and story rather than a static number relating to some character trait.If you want GOD-LIKE power for your ABs above and beyond anything provided by the Epic rules, then perhaps the ABs shouldn't be Epic prestige classes? Are there any 3E rules out for playing godlings and deities? Then use those.
umm, isn't the concept of god-like supposed to mean that you aren't 'yet' in the category of gods?? Just somewhat uber powerful?
I always liked how AB's were super powerful, yet still under that category, not in the gods category. They didn't die of old age (not that anyone played an immortal character too long anyways, but it's a handy trick to know) and they had strong innate abilities that moved them beyond normal humanoid limitations, also a plus for epic life. :-) I liked it that way....depending on what's allowed in your game, you can still rock the party. Especially with the Metamorphosis seed.
Agreed
I like think the Metamorphosis seed gives a TON of room for both versatility and unique flavor. Want your dragon to have purple gemlike scales and a gas attack (similar to poison gas from volcanoes) ? then it's all yours :D Want an Avangion with the innate ability to absorb spells or fuel a defilers spellcasting in order to protect the land around you? (watch an avangion be captured just to be used as a spell battery before he dies for a local SK :P ) lol then that's possible too, just gotta hit the DC That's what Epic Spellcasting and the seeds are all about. :D Gotta love it.. Want to make an organic armor made of the same stuff as the pristine tower with unusual properties for your life shaper friend?? Now you can! :P hmmm that sounds fun :PAnd you can cram your condescension and 1337speak BS, Greyorm.I'm here to discuss ABs, not deal with some Comic Book Guy-esque jargon and thinly veiled snide attitudes.
Greyorm, you seem to be selectively ignoring one major component of the situation
Not ignoring that at all; my criticism was speaking directly to the argument you made that the ABs should not be balanced with other Epic-level prestige classes. Gold dragons and first level sorcerers have nothing to do with what I stated (especially because OBVIOUSLY...a great gold wyrm has a CR in addition to the sorcerer level, so why would anyone treat it as a first level sorcerer or argue it should be? That's nonsense and is an intentional abuse of my argument).
And you can cram your condescension and 1337speak BS, Greyorm.I'm here to discuss ABs, not deal with some Comic Book Guy-esque jargon and thinly veiled snide attitudes.
Yeah, that's totally what that was about
But if you really want to have a snippy and condescending argument, then "This is the wrong thread for AB discussion: this is the "future or past" thread. Quit thread-crapping."Honestly, I don't.
ADDENDUM: You know...what really pisses me off about this is your choice to come out swinging personal attacks about something you just did yourself. I responded to a post where you ranted and complained and crapped on all sorts of ideas, insulted anyone with a mentally disadvantaged family member with your thoughtless use of language ("...such a freakin retarded direction..."), and you think you have any right to tell me to "cram" it?
Yeah, sure, I'm betting it's "different for you" -- whatever excuse you'll choose to use to justify your statements -- but your criticism about behavior and attitude swings both ways, so you have no grounds for complaints of "condescension and thinly veiled snide attitudes" or for resorting to personal attacks. So cram your own accusations of "jargon" (where?) and attitude, Term.
Well stated, Greyorm.
BTW, I'm less angry now if you are :D
mostly I wrote this thread to say "hi! I'm back!" :P lol as to the balancing issue, would anyone recomend that the metamorphosis add an increased CR to the character? Or maybe, what is it, those racial style fake character levels they use to balance things out??As for the recent end of your spat you guys
nice comical way of ending it ;)As for my original thread... do you expect more or fewer races in Athas' future??
Just be careful you don't get run through in your practice. :P lol
The thing that made me fall inlove with DS was the fact that no one did good for the sake of doing good. everyone was potentially a threat. it was about survival not morality. when i first started playing the game i was shocked at how the heroes would act. Darksun really gave new meaning to the Phrase "No Mercy". the storyline is rich and interesting and i have never, ever ever had a boring game in athas.
the Power Level of Dark Sun isnt really that huge. only transformed beings actually have massive power. Defiler Dragons using Psionics are insanely powerful in 2e. but aside from that the power level isnt much higher than most other settings and lower than some. Granted on a 1 v 1 scale most 3rd level DS characters could kill 5th-6th level chars from other settings, but the fact that athas doesnt have godly clerics and other settings do balances it out. yes you're thrikreen gladiator psionicist is very powerful but so is my gods power that he bestows onto my cleric from other settings.
point is POWER isnt the reason DarkSun rules. its the gritty flavor that wins the day for me.
I'v Played DS for over 15 years. I'v had over 12 characters killed in action and only a single success that lived. my Mul Gladiator made it to level 18 with no loss of limb. and was awarded one of the most badass weapons ever granted to a player. (completely custom) I Founded my own City State "Tarkus" and hunted mages for 3 years. the last time i played was when i chopped Dregoths head from his shoulders and claimed his kingdom for the free peoples of athas. none of the sorcerer kings lived.
I have been wanting to get back into DS for a long time now, and i was wondering if anyone could provide links to Offical and Unoffical downloadable DS information. Websites. anything.
also i was hoping that someone could provide me with a list of Offical 2e and 3e product releases. is there anything for 3.5?
what about news of 4e DS? any hope?
as this post is long i will end it with a thanks for any and all replies.
Check out athas.org for all your 3.5 needs.
thanks very much for the link, I'v been using that site for a few years now. great downloadable content, but no real news on the future of darksun. maybe i can just get people here to fill me in on the info i dont have, my selection of DS books is very limited.
of the gaming books in 2e i have
DS campaign setting
Dragon Kings
slave tribes
ivory triangle
city state of Nibenay
citystate of gulg
of the novels i have
Cerulean storm
darkness before the dawn
broken blade
the nomad
rise and fall of a dragon king
cinnabar shadows
i will add to my collection when i can, iv been swamped with bills so i cant really do much now. so any insider info anyone wants to share with me about info in products and novels i dont have. please PM me! I am also looking for custom fandom rules and art to add to my collection. i play and run everything under the sun.
thanks for any and all replies.
:evillaughAnother way to see where Athas was supposed to be before it got cancelled is to read the New Jedi Order series of Star Wars books, and pay close attention to the Yuuzhan Vong. They were created by Troy Denning, the same guy who co-created Dark Sun, and from what I understand, they are basically a Star Wars-ported version of the Rhulisti that were going to return on the Messenger. (Yes, the messenger comet that appears every so often. Think "Worldship housing an awful lifeshaped invasion force"). For extra RPG material for the returning Rhulisti, if you choose to use them, check out the Star Wars d20 books, specifially the New Jedi Order guidebook, and you'll find all kinds of great lifeshaped equipment, that if slightly tweaked, will fit great inot any DS campaign that includes lifeshaped creatures, tissues, etc. Everything except their starships(from armor to weapons!) fits right into any campaign using lifeshaped stuff, without seeming out of place. Especially Vonduun Crab Armor and Amphistaffs, and thudbugs, too. DS was heading straight into the return of the Rhulisti, the Deadlands were going to become a problem, and the natural barrier between the Kreen Empire and the Tablelands has a big hole in it. And the plug got pulled before all that really nasty s*** could hit the fan.
No longer status quo for anyone. :PI like that twist, very DS.
A Great Wurm Red Dragon is CR 24 IIRC but its LA os +20 making it suitable for a level 50 campaign. Athas.org probaly should have tweaked the existing Dragons rules already. Even Dragoin kings recommended advanced beings as an NPC only option, or at least suggested it. You can't really balence them while making them challenging to PCs of that level by using existing PC classes. Anyone here honestly believe a level 24 rogue is equal to a CR 24 Dragon. The Athas.org rules for them are mish mashy at best and feel like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
The epic spellseed is inherently broken and by adding enough mitigating factors you can get stupidly powerful spells castable at level 21 or so without having to be an advanced being.
The D&D rules don't really handle high level play that well let alone epic play. So many encounters can end with a high enough level wizard with timestop+ forcecage+ some spell life Acid for. The spellcasters might survive if they have the right spells. Bye bye non spellcasters.
Of course Sorceror Kings in 3.5 rules will mop the floor with PCs (maybe) but looking at the original source material they were just a slightly tough high level encounter. They're not gods and should be on par perhaps with the Archfiends from a standard D&D world (CR 21-30ish).
The metamorphosis seed is great, and is usable for many things. Not just AB (though you need to be a Caster and a Manifester to use it). Many interesting tempaltes and additions to characters can happen with it, making it much cooler than the standard "this is how every dragon works" mold, and more in the "I am researching this to develop as I want to" idea that was behind much of the 2ed fluff and requirements for casting the spells to change (Materials never studied by another wizards?)
Epic has flaws to be sure. But, we are doing what we can with what we have.
Besides, there is no way that game balance on the world will allow for some of the things you can do with epic spells. Maybe later I'll post my Raze City Epic Spell. Or maybe my Break Continent spell, which is still in process.
Remember, though, that the level of a Dragon does not reflect its complete stature and range of abilities. The Metamorphosis spells add a host of abilities that should raise its CR, but are completely independent of its levels. A Lv 25 Sorcerer or Psion could very well hold its own against a lv20Wiz/5Dragon character, because the power behind the concept isn't so much in the class as it is in the Metamorphosis. The only really tricky part is figuring out the proper CRs for the different stages of Dragon.
I've noticed high/epic level combat usualy comes down to an initiative roll and either way the fight is usually over in 3 rounds or less.
Instead of a Wiz 20/Dragon 5 characters at CR 25 how about a Dragon similar to a Dragon form a more normal world with both Psionics and Spells at level 21 caster? I'm not 100% but in the epic spell seed coversion from second ed did they change the cost to reflect the changes from 2nd ed to 3rd ed money? Alot of adventures made you very rich very quickly ion 2nd ed with not alot to spend your money on. It wasn't to unusual to see high level characters with 1-2 million gold cash and alot of magical items as well. In 3rd ed you will be lucky to have 1/10th of that as most of your loot is tied up in magic items which have a gp value now.
I don't think under the new rules a PC could afford to transform unless the DM was rather generous/loose with money in his campaign. Its true any advanced being is going to be powerful but thats more of an issue with the epic spell seed and epic level games in general. Spellcaters are vastly overpowered at higher levels and are often capable of destroying NPC encounters alot higher in CR than the recommendations in the DMG.
Athas.org spent alot of effort with the Avangion/Dragon that most people won't use as we don't generally play high level games using rules that are quite frankly awful (the Epic level handbook, high level spells in general). We've played games at level 21-30 and its not what I would call pleasant or fun. Milage may vary of course. 3.5 doesn't really handle multiclass spellcasters/psions that well.
Personally I would have made the transformation rules a ritual with maybe a few spells used like wish+ the psionic version instead of epic magic that only a level 20+ Psion/Wizard could do and any PC doing it becomes an NPC. Psiwarriors need not apply as they would lack the dedication a pure Psion/Wizard would have (ie true level 9 powers)
As I said it fels like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Trying to get the flavour right form a 2nd ed sourcebook that was lets be honest flawed and using a 3.0 rulebook that was rubbish in 2002 to try and make it work for 3.5 and its a mish mash nightmare. Not exactly Athas.org fault as I would have written new rules for it rather than use bad mechanics and try and make it fit.
Dragon Metamorphosis (ritual)
This ritual is designed to turn a high level character into a dragon. It requires the use of wish and reality revision and requires a focus and XYZ days. The focus is usually a building and must be worth XYZ Cp and Wish and Reality Revision must be cast/manifested by the potential Dragon and not used if a magic or psionic item. A DC 30 (or 40 or 50 etc) Fort save must be passed and failure results in death and the character cannot be raised or ressurected.
Tidy it up a bit and hey you've got a Dragon- and not everyone has the epic level rulebook anyway. Now just write the rules for NPC Dragons at each stage of metmorphosis. You could do a table similar to the one in the Monster Manual on Dragons but intead of age categories you would have stages I-X which would detail the Dragons AC, breathe weapons, psionics/magic, SR/PR etc. Indvidual Sorceror Kings could have templates put on them to make them tougher or just have extra class levels- Fighter for Hamanu, Dragon Ascendant for Dregoth etc.
Instead of a Wiz 20/Dragon 5 characters at CR 25 how about a Dragon similar to a Dragon form a more normal world with both Psionics and Spells at level 21 caster? I'm not 100% but in the epic spell seed coversion from second ed did they change the cost to reflect the changes from 2nd ed to 3rd ed money? Alot of adventures made you very rich very quickly ion 2nd ed with not alot to spend your money on. It wasn't to unusual to see high level characters with 1-2 million gold cash and alot of magical items as well. In 3rd ed you will be lucky to have 1/10th of that as most of your loot is tied up in magic items which have a gp value now.
Well, part of the problem with this is that we are staying true to the flavor of the original setting. So, it will be a ten step process. Also, the cost changes are included (see here) but they are used as mitigation factors. So... one could replace those with any other mitigation factor you like, its up to you and your DM. Want to sacrifice more HD of creatures? Sure! Want to destroy an artifact as a mitigating factor? Go for it! Want to burn XP? Why not?! Just because the Dragon metamorphosis spells are written as they are doesn't mean that yours have to be. That said, if you want to do something more like other "normal" dragons, go for it. Though I would suggest looking at some of the Optimization Boards to see what people think about Dragons and whether or not they are worth their CR. Most people who frequent those boards would say they are weak for their CR.
I don't think under the new rules a PC could afford to transform unless the DM was rather generous/loose with money in his campaign. Its true any advanced being is going to be powerful but thats more of an issue with the epic spell seed and epic level games in general. Spellcaters are vastly overpowered at higher levels and are often capable of destroying NPC encounters alot higher in CR than the recommendations in the DMG.
Well, truth be told, the DM is god when it comes to what happens and what doesn't. Dragons don't do well when playing with others, so (unless you are a preserver cult leader using this as a means to power and playing that angle) it will be rare to find a PC dragon anyway. An Avangion is a much more party friendly individual, so I could see the rest of the party making one characters transformation part of their party's objectives. Who knows what kind of templates could be added to the party.
And just so you know: you can use the metamorphosis seed on non-AB to grant them some cool powers that cannot be dispelled due to the seed being an instantaneous effect. This means that the rest of the party benifits, even if the preserver (or defiler) who is transforming only makes it one step down the path spellwize (since the PrC is separate). Trust me, it's worth it.
Athas.org spent alot of effort with the Avangion/Dragon that most people won't use as we don't generally play high level games using rules that are quite frankly awful (the Epic level handbook, high level spells in general). We've played games at level 21-30 and its not what I would call pleasant or fun. Milage may vary of course. 3.5 doesn't really handle multiclass spellcasters/psions that well.
The epic rules are in need of work. But, keep in mind that the work we do now helps make the transition to 4e easier, as we have ground work in place. Also, just because your games don't go that way doesn't mean that others games won't. It might be (though I have no evidence) that people are waiting for epic rules for all the classes to play some Epic Dark Sun.
Personally I would have made the transformation rules a ritual with maybe a few spells used like wish+ the psionic version instead of epic magic that only a level 20+ Psion/Wizard could do and any PC doing it becomes an NPC. Psiwarriors need not apply as they would lack the dedication a pure Psion/Wizard would have (ie true level 9 powers)
Nothing stopping you from doing it. There should be a few threads that spoke to why it was done as it was in the Sticky Forum Archive at the top of the Boards. Check it out, it may answer some of your questions and concerns.
As I said it fels like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Trying to get the flavour right form a 2nd ed sourcebook that was lets be honest flawed and using a 3.0 rulebook that was rubbish in 2002 to try and make it work for 3.5 and its a mish mash nightmare. Not exactly Athas.org fault as I would have written new rules for it rather than use bad mechanics and try and make it fit.
Well, we at Athas.org are bound by our our agreements with WotC. Another place to look is the Unofficial Epic Errata over on the Epic Boards, as they have some good fixes to things. Athas.org can't implement them, because of our agreements, but you could in your own games.
Tidy it up a bit and hey you've got a Dragon- and not everyone has the epic level rulebook anyway.
Actually, everyone does have the Epic Handbook, as it is in the SRD.
So, rather than speculate on the future of AB's being NPC's or not :P let's turn things a little to the past!
Anyone think there could have been ther AB's in the past other than the SK's? Certainly the SK's survived till the present day, but I'm talking about independent rascals who were gaining power outside Rajaat and his minions
Maybe some Elementals AB's? Or SotL? Anyone have those stashed in the past?? Or (SK's forbid :P an ancient AB stashed in the past somewhere?) let me hear your homebrew historical alterations Interesting how things get split in every thread to "I hate dragons/ AB's" etc... guess everyone is a critic. ;) what i don't understand is nearly everyone's overwhelming desire to say "I think this way, and therefor you must agree" :P lol rather than just saying "Well, I'll do things different in my campaign" which is everyone's inherant right.
/starts channelling Kal/
Everyone's Inherent Right is to do what I do things as I say to!!!!
/stops channeling Kal/
Ok, that out of my system, I merely want to say that you can do whatever you want to do for your campaign. While I am biased about athas.org's Epic Rules (cause I am working on them) I do understand that some will not like it and do there own thing. Good. Let us know here on the boards how that goes. If it works, we'll stea... er... incorporate those ideas into a future revision of things. This whole thing is really just one big experimental fun zone, so try it a different way, it's your world.
So, rather than speculate on the future of AB's being NPC's or not :P let's turn things a little to the past!
Anyone think there could have been ther AB's in the past other than the SK's? Certainly the SK's survived till the present day, but I'm talking about independent rascals who were gaining power outside Rajaat and his minions
Well, there had to be some at some point. I think part of the Eradication ( the SK's war against druids) was a plan to eliminate those AB's as a threat. Especially since they (the SK's) knew that if they failed, everything would be lost (not that the SK's are good, but I do believe that they want something to rule while they are in power, which means someone has to be alive and Rajaat freed wants everyone dead.)
AB clerics go other places and leave Athas as they advance to work on their patron's plane, so they rarely stick around.
And of course, I think that somewhere, lurking in the shadows, a shifting AB or two may lurk out of sight and mind of the SK's...
sneaky sneaky sir ;) lol I agree there :DAfter all, while the SK's have been around a LONG time, they weren't always around a long time, and even so, they are still using the minds of mortals, so omniscience isn't part of the deal. :P Thus, a young new upstart has a chance (though small) of hiding away somewhere and trying to gain more power.. even though the SK's war with each other, they rarely attack each other directly unless it would threaten the rest of them as a group. So I figure with them not being all that united, it's possible that someone could sneak through and join the ranks of the AB's if they were patient enough to keep out of the spotlight.
Question becomes.. who would you wish to have join? SotL? Avangion? Elemental AB? or another Dragon wanna be? :PBut I digress. The point being, I have so many ABs that if an uppity SK tried poking his nose outside the Tablelands looking for trouble, trouble is what he'd find. In abundance.
And of course, I think that somewhere, lurking in the shadows, a shifting AB or two may lurk out of sight and mind of the SK's...
:D
ooooh
After all, while the SK's have been around a LONG time, they weren't always around a long time, and even so, they are still using the minds of mortals, so omniscience isn't part of the deal. :P Thus, a young new upstart has a chance (though small) of hiding away somewhere and trying to gain more power.. even though the SK's war with each other, they rarely attack each other directly unless it would threaten the rest of them as a group. So I figure with them not being all that united, it's possible that someone could sneak through and join the ranks of the AB's if they were patient enough to keep out of the spotlight.
I have started some work for a Empire ruled by Rain AB's based off of Brian's maps. The Empire of Storms. They are sort of a noble family that has gained power and either left the Tablelands during the CW in opposition to them, or are the remnant of a Champion who is yet unnamed who was killed by the race he or she was cleansing. The race has since left and they have been in constant battle with the Kreen Empire in the Northern portions. They have Green Age psionics and loads of Elemental stuff. The rulers personalities are totally like the weather, calm then violent, load then silent. They take on interesting names like "The Rider on the Clouds," and "Black Lightning Strikes" and the like. Their cities and outposts have names like Thunderhead, and Stormwatch, and Ascension Point.
Anyway, just my own idea. Outside the Tablelands, they would be very numerous, comparably.
Here are some of my other locations
A region ravished by an upper level dragon (27th level?). There are no SKs, just city-states cowering from it.
An Elemental-King (EK?) that rules a city much like the SKs do.
A kingdom ruled by an avangion in a perfect society based off of Plato's republic.
Personally, I liked the idea of SK, as sorcerers, not as some warriror dragons that have lived for thousands of years. Dark Sun was a lot better with a bit of mystery.
Oh, and guys, if you're going to do personal attacks, keep a theme going. This is a dark sun board.
Greyworm, you smell like a half-giants butt.
I know what you're thinking, "Why me". Why not?
lolVerbal sparring with Greyorm is like practicing Kung Fu with a Master. He'll always mop the floor with you, but in the end, if you pay attention, you'll learn something ! :D
:D Hee. Thanks!
Greyworm, you smell like a half-giants butt.
A squad of scantily-clad cosplay defiler-assassins has been dispatched to your location. :P