I have been interested in Dark Sun ever since I saw the original Boxed Set for sale in a shop back in the mid-90’s, but have never run it so far. I am planning to begin a AD&D 2nd Ed campaign in the pre-Age of Freedom era and while scanning all the material I own I came up with a few doubts about the nature of magic in Athas.
Now, I understand that Dark Sun as all of old TSR’s unique campaign settings had to sacrifice internal cohesion for the sake of compatibility with AD&D 2nd Ed. Be as it may I would like to get a better understanding what magic really is on Athas.
If this has been debated to death and conclusions achieved, I apologise. I should also point out that I do not own “Wizards of Athas” or “Earth, Air, Fire and Water”.
First the facts as I understand them. (If I got any of these horribly wrong please correct me)
A) Preserver magic for all intents and purposes works as all AD&D wizardry. It is the art of channelling the forces of reality, by means of gestures, voice and components to achieve desired results which may (and most often do) contradict the “natural” laws of the universe. While powerful, it has some limits and cannot do certain effects that even low-level divine (i.e. traditional clerical) magic can, like healing.
B) Defiler magic is like Preserver magic with the added twist of draining life force from living creatures (vegetable and animal) to help power the spells. This makes it easier to use because the caster need not expend so much effort channelling magical energies (granting a Defiler more spells slots than a Preserver with the same amount of XP). Defiler sorcery destroys vegetation and causes pain to living creatures. Higher level defiling can cripple and even kill superior life forms as it drain life force from them.
C) In Athas, the “conduits” that allow Deities to receive power from the prayers of their worshippers do not exist. Therefore the Gods are not interested in Athas.
D) Elemental clerics draw their spell power from the elemental or para-elemental planes as the clerics make pacts with the powerful elemental entities that reside there. They can still turn undead, are limited in their spell choice according to which element their follow but suffer very little in the way of behavioural requirements.
E) Druid magic comes from their worship/service to geographical locations on Athas, or more precisely from the Spirits of the Land that reside there. It works like elemental Cleric magic except they cannot turn undead.
F) Templars channel their powers directly from the Sorcerer-Kings. Their magic is the same in nature to elemental clerical magic but with a wider choice of spells. They have power over the undead but only to control them as evil divine Clerics of other settings.
Now, considering all this the following questions and possible answers come to mind. I would like to hear the opinions of DS veterans.
Is it possible to change between the paths of Defiler and Preserver?
I have read nothing on the rules about this but Sadira is seen using defiler magic in the first novel and latter becomes a preserver. There is also the case of the sorcerer-king I heard about who became an Avangion and therefore a preserver even though he was a high level defiler/psionicist.
I would say yes, it is possible. With time and effort one can switch paths if wishing to do so.
Although deities cannot gain power from the inhabitants of Athas, if one choose to could it grant spells to Athasians and thus create true divine clerics?
Again I would answer yes. Of course there is no reason for a deity to do this, but the fact is clerical magic does exist on Athas.
It is not so much a question of the Gods not being able to help this dying world but the fact that they are grubby little bastards and want their cut
Why can Elemental clerics turn undead?
What is the rationale behind this power? I think this happens because undead are an abomination of the “Great Cycle”, or whatever you would like to call it. And the base elements are closely tied to it, being the founding blocks of the universe. The elemental forces that clerics channel are anathema to them.
Why do the rulers of the elemental plains make pacts with Athasians and create clerics. What do gain from granting spell power to mortals?
This is a touchy one. Elemental clerics do not proselytise, are not organised into religions and seem to do very little to advance the interests of the elemental denizens on Athas. The only solution I can come up with is that the divine “conduits” that are not supposed to exist on Athas actually do, but only allow that process to work towards the elemental planes.
This raises another problem: Why then don’t deities that reside in the elemental planes seek worshippers on Athas? One could then theorise that the conduits are minor and cannot channel enough strength to satisfy even the weakest deity. Elemental Lords, while powerful, are not divine beings and are content with trading the small worship strength possible for spell power.
Why can’t the Sorcerer-Kings use clerical magic themselves?
For whatever reasons the SK are able to act as conduits of power between Athas and the elemental planes. Not only can they “power” hundreds or even thousands of Templars (their “clerics” by another name); they can do it more efficiently than the elementals who make pacts with Athasians clerics. This happens in all likelihood because the elementals reside in another plane of existence while a SK lives on the Prime Material and is not aligned with any element. Why then, doesn’t a SK use all this power to, let’s say further his metamorphosis? Or anything else beyond acting as a clerical magic “battery”?
I don’t have an answer for this one. Any ideas? Ok, I’m sure “game-balance” or “setting design fiat” is the answer but I would like one that makes sense and maintains internal consistency.
And finally:
That SK that became an Avangion, being a former champion of Rajaat and all that. Could he (or does he) have his own "good" Templars?
Well that’s all for now. Hope to hear your comments and sorry for such a long post.
Greetings all. I’m a lurker no more…huzzah!
Huzzah! Welcome to the boards!
A) Preserver magic for all intents and purposes works as all AD&D wizardry. It is the art of channelling the forces of reality, by means of gestures, voice and components to achieve desired results which may (and most often do) contradict the “natural” laws of the universe. While powerful, it has some limits and cannot do certain effects that even low-level divine (i.e. traditional clerical) magic can, like healing.
B) Defiler magic is like Preserver magic with the added twist of draining life force from living creatures (vegetable and animal) to help power the spells. This makes it easier to use because the caster need not expend so much effort channelling magical energies (granting a Defiler more spells slots than a Preserver with the same amount of XP). Defiler sorcery destroys vegetation and causes pain to living creatures. Higher level defiling can cripple and even kill superior life forms as it drain life force from them.
Both Preserver and Defiler magic drain life force from plants. The difference is how much. Defilers draw recklessly and carelessly causing the destruction of surrounding plant life and sterilizing the soil so nothing can grow. Preservers limit the amount of life energy they draw, thereby "preserving" the life of the plants. Only higher-powered beings (like The Dragon or SKs) can drain life force from sentient creatures. All other wizards (with a few exceptions) drain only from plants.
C) In Athas, the “conduits” that allow Deities to receive power from the prayers of their worshippers do not exist. Therefore the Gods are not interested in Athas.
Ah, here's where you've missed something. There are no deities connected with Athas. There are things like Spirits of the Land (for Druids and Rangers), and there are arrogant Sorcerer Kings who believe they are deities, but Athas has no real deities.
D) Elemental clerics draw their spell power from the elemental or para-elemental planes as the clerics make pacts with the powerful elemental entities that reside there. They can still turn undead, are limited in their spell choice according to which element their follow but suffer very little in the way of behavioural requirements.
Clerics connect directly with the plane itself, not a powerful entity. Elemental Clerics are direct followers of the purity of their element.
E) Druid magic comes from their worship/service to geographical locations on Athas, or more precisely from the Spirits of the Land that reside there. It works like elemental Cleric magic except they cannot turn undead.
F) Templars channel their powers directly from the Sorcerer-Kings. Their magic is the same in nature to elemental clerical magic but with a wider choice of spells. They have power over the undead but only to control them as evil divine Clerics of other settings.
Correct.
Now, considering all this the following questions and possible answers come to mind. I would like to hear the opinions of DS veterans.
Is it possible to change between the paths of Defiler and Preserver?
I have read nothing on the rules about this but Sadira is seen using defiler magic in the first novel and latter becomes a preserver. There is also the case of the sorcerer-king I heard about who became an Avangion and therefore a preserver even though he was a high level defiler/psionicist.
I would say yes, it is possible. With time and effort one can switch paths if wishing to do so.
Yes you can, to a point. In the updated version(s) of Dark Sun, Defilers and Preservers follow the same class, and it's just a different technique. Once a Defiler progresses to a certain point, they lose the ability to Preserve.
A Preserver may always elect to Defile if they want.
Although deities cannot gain power from the inhabitants of Athas, if one choose to could it grant spells to Athasians and thus create true divine clerics?
Again I would answer yes. Of course there is no reason for a deity to do this, but the fact is clerical magic does exist on Athas.
It is not so much a question of the Gods not being able to help this dying world but the fact that they are grubby little bastards and want their cut
No deities, so there are no "divine clerics" on Athas. The only Clerics are elemental/paraelemental, or Templars.
Why can Elemental clerics turn undead?
What is the rationale behind this power? I think this happens because undead are an abomination of the “Great Cycle”, or whatever you would like to call it. And the base elements are closely tied to it, being the founding blocks of the universe. The elemental forces that clerics channel are anathema to them.
I'm not entirely sure... Undead are connected to The Grey, through which the Elemental Conduits connect with Athas.
There are others who can answer your questions better than I can, but since I got here first, here you go!
As for clerics not being able to turn/rebuke undead - that would require a connection to the positive or negative energy planes, some thing that Athas is not. In 2nd Ed. I might allow turning/rebuking elementals and element types (BTW: I haven't played DS in 15 years, if that is how clerics already work in Advanced D&D then just ignore that part of the post).
Sorry but this brings me to ask: "In 3rd, are there any mechanical differences between Preservers and Defilers, Or is simply player's choice at the time?"
If you check out DS3, it should answer most of your questions about the specific mechanics.
The people at athas.org have been given the official mandate by WotC to update Dark Sun, so anything they release is considered official. They've done a lot of great work. There's also the Dragon magazine version (can't remember off hand if it's 3e or 3.5), but a lot of people here prefer the athas.org material.
I'd answer your question more directly, but I'm at work and don't have the files with me to double check.
As for clerics not being able to turn/rebuke undead - that would require a connection to the positive or negative energy planes, some thing that Athas is not. In 2nd Ed. I might allow turning/rebuking elementals and element types (BTW: I haven't played DS in 15 years, if that is how clerics already work in Advanced D&D then just ignore that part of the post).
I think they still might be able to turn/rebuke undead, but I forget what the in-game explanation is. I haven't played AD&D for so long that I can't remember how it worked back then. :P
If you check out DS3, it should answer most of your questions about the specific mechanics.
The people at athas.org have been given the official mandate by WotC to update Dark Sun, so anything they release is considered official. They've done a lot of great work. There's also the Dragon magazine version (can't remember off hand if it's 3e or 3.5), but a lot of people here prefer the athas.org material.
I'd answer your question more directly, but I'm at work and don't have the files with me to double check.
That would be Dragon Issue #315 your talking about, and I have the Athas.org 3.5 pdf printed out right next to me (following them from the beginning). They kind of leave it nebulous to me, unless I missed something.
I think they still might be able to turn/rebuke undead, but I forget what the in-game explanation is. I haven't played AD&D for so long that I can't remember how it worked back then. :P
How it worked... I've been waiting for this... it works like Thac0 :D
They can still turn undead, are limited in their spell choice according to which element their follow but suffer very little in the way of behavioural requirements. (snip)
Why do the rulers of the elemental plains make pacts with Athasians and create clerics. What do gain from granting spell power to mortals?
According to Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, clerics have to protect their element from those who would squander it and in general improve the environment.
Non-Canon WarningPersonally I'd rather leave the latter for the druids and say that there are metaphorical links between the elemental planes and the material plane, with various things being associated with different elements. (check out some of the elemental associations for things in ancient Asia. For example earth is associated with sweet flavors, and anxiety, fire with hyperactivity and bitter flavors.) Thus a palace of a powerful fire elemental or battle site on the plane of fire might be a volcano on the material plane, and some place like Eldaarich, where the sense of paranoia is acute might result in a very mineral rich region on the plane of Earth.
In this scenario, an Earth priest given the opportunity would actually encourage societies like Eldaarich. And since the elemental spirits can only affect the material plane in any major way is through demi-humans (including humans) that's why they would make pacts with them.
Why can’t the Sorcerer-Kings use clerical magic themselves?
For whatever reasons the SK are able to act as conduits of power between Athas and the elemental planes. Not only can they “power” hundreds or even thousands of Templars (their “clerics” by another name); they can do it more efficiently than the elementals who make pacts with Athasians clerics. This happens in all likelihood because the elementals reside in another plane of existence while a SK lives on the Prime Material and is not aligned with any element. Why then, doesn’t a SK use all this power to, let’s say further his metamorphosis? Or anything else beyond acting as a clerical magic “battery”?
Maybe the sorceror kings could actually use the power of the elements, if it just wasn't so awkward feeling to pray to themselves. :P Besides which, they've been using psionics and defiling magic for hundreds, maybe even thousands, that they may not really have any use for clerical magic. Of course, a source of magic that they can give to their templars to set them above everyone else in the city, but yet choke off at will if their templar turns on them or gets up to something they don't want them to? Most SK's like that, I think.
Both Preserver and Defiler magic drain life force from plants. The difference is how much. Defilers draw recklessly and carelessly causing the destruction of surrounding plant life and sterilizing the soil so nothing can grow. Preservers limit the amount of life energy they draw, thereby "preserving" the life of the plants. Only higher-powered beings (like The Dragon or SKs) can drain life force from sentient creatures. All other wizards (with a few exceptions) drain only from plants..
Doesn't one of the old sourcebooks say that preservers also channel the residual energies from their spells back into the plants and soil when they cast? BTW The Revised Box set has the 2nd edition rules for swapping between defiling and preserving, and maybe the original does too.
I think, in the end, that this really can't be the case. My assumption is that the lack of spiritual conduits that blocks the deities from recieving strength, also blocks them from granting strength. Just my thoughts on the subject.
That said, the elemental planes of Athas (now that all the gaming worlds officially are there own thing without having to deal with the metaverse concept if they choose, just look at eberron) gain and loose power relational to the terrain of Athas. So that a battle that Silt wins means that the Silt Sea rises. This is why they grant spells, not to stay alive like gods, but to gain power over their neighbors.
Also, never forget that the gods of the Green Age might have been elemental powers that took on different aspects for the same reason. It might have been that the current state of clerical magic is just as backwards and devolved as everything else on Athas. Old gods never showed up to help when the Cleansing Wars broke out, and so the worship of them changed. The temples to the god of War and the Forge was destroyed, so the orcs ended up adapting to just paying allegiance to Fire, and the cerimonies and rituals changed over time until the original purpose was forgotten and the god was totally disconnected from the actions.
Druids worshiping SotL might be different, but it seems that they to could have been like the Roman gods of hearth and home, only specific to locales. Or even idol worship, paying tribute to the god of the valley for the bountiful crops by tending the land and keeping it safe. The god of the valley then culminates the ending celebration of the harvest festival or planting festival with a fertility right, maybe creating a half-elemental or something similar to help protect the land. Over time, defiling and the Dragon's rampage of 100 years made it so that all the niceties fell away and it was all about protection. Who knows, just some ideas.
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according to the adventure, the channels of divine energy on athas are indeed oddly redirected to the elemental planes. presumably, this is not connected to entities on those planes, but rather the planes themselves.