Any suggestions on how it should be done, what should change and whether the 'metaplot' should move on? Feel free to post them here!
Instead just sort of have the whole "factions are banned, guilds are in" situation, except that over the years the factions are starting to ease back in to Sigil. So that they are still significant and there's a couple of newer players back in the Cage. Sort of how Sigil was before the Great Upheaval, but not so out of control that the Lady of Pain is going to cull such groups.
Also change the cant, show that there's new slang invented and old words have fallen out of use.
Sigil deserves a post-Faction War boxed set. With a detailed and accurate poster map!
Another low-through-high-level adventure arc like The Great Modron March/Dead Gods and its peripheral adventures would be excellent. I'd like to see some material on the formian invasion of Mechanus that was a consequence of that arc, as well.
More Fiendish Codexes! Where my yugoloths at?
What we absolutely do not need are new rules. The strength of Planescape is in flavor and roleplaying, and most of that is perfectly intact from the D&D2 material, which is available legally and inexpensively for download online.
As the game stands now there is no real way a party of mid level adventurers could even hope to think about blackmailing a devil without a lot of support and possibly DM hadn waving. It is just too easy for a creature of 5 or more CRs to obliterate a party (unless extremely combat optimized) in under a three rounds.
If there is enough flexibility in the rules that a DM could run something on the fly and if it all goes pear shaped allow the PCs to at least make a fighting retreat then there is hope.
As for a method of releasing material: First book should be Sigil and the "Planes" then release a few more books like boxed sets did. Only this time it could be good evil and neutrality vs law, chaos, and neutrality.
The factions should be much more influenced by the planes they fled to after being cast out. They operate as best they can through guilds in Sigil but occasionally the faction and the guild might clash.
Philosophies should also develop a bit more to allow for dead philosphies and factions to be replaced by new ideas.
Of course all of this could be a pipedream if WotC continues with the each setting ahs its own cosmology theme.
I think there is a distinct possibility that Planescape will be updated for the 4th edition of D&D, since WotC expects to update one setting per year.
Do you have a link as to where this expectation is stated? I was under the impression that we will see periodic updates of old settings in the Insider.
Also given the recent commenst about devils it sounds like a lot of the commonly accepted Planar trends would ahve to change for Planescape to work. I think from WotC support the lady is indead both of and in pain. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13420839&mode=threaded#post13420839
*chuckles*
It seems the first casualty of any decision to go in a new direction with D&D is whatever origin story of The Nine Hells/Baator that was presented under the previous state of affairs. We've had at least five different versions so far (I may well have missed one or two):
-The unofficial one presented in "The Politics of Hell", long ago in Dragon Magazine.
-Planescape's version.
-The version in Guide to Hell.
-The version in Fiendish Codex II.
-And now, 4th Ed.'s version, which will survive until the next time somebody decides to take a look at Baator...
Do you have a link as to where this expectation is stated? I was under the impression that we will see periodic updates of old settings in the Insider.
I don't really remember where it was stated. I think it was at one of the D&D seminars at Gen Con and then reported by posters on ENWorld who attended the seminars, but don't quote me on that. The only thing I can say with a reasonable degree of certainty is that it was indeed stated by a WotC staffer, since otherwise I would not have remembered the statement.
Ah well, there'll always be Planewalker.
The description of 4E Hells is IMO a step in the right direction and way way more interesting that just pigeonholing an entire race of beings with an alignment. Isn't one of the rumors that alignment will matter much less? If true and carried though consistently this means big things for Planescape. We may have to actually find motivations for creatures like the Slaad.
I wonder what the rest of the outer planes will look like when they're actually a realm of ideas and thought rather than constrictive and arbitrary alignment.
If the devils deicide is the turning point, then perhaps Mount Celestra adopted its militant attitude out of fear an paranoia. That would make it a Fortress America in the sky. Much more interesting and thought provoking than just slapping Lawful Good on the main gate.
Moving on down the circle a bit perhaps the Realms of Asguard (or is it Yasguard? my memory is failing me) are in a state of willful denial carrying on in their celebrations and refusing to believe in this great crime.
I see tasty possibilities all over the outer planes now.
Im just getting into planescape it it blows everything else Ive seen out of the water, I'd love to have offical support for my players.
Also given the recent commenst about devils it sounds like a lot of the commonly accepted Planar trends would ahve to change for Planescape to work. I think from WotC support the lady is indead both of and in pain. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13420839&mode=threaded#post13420839
I really dislike this turn of events. The cosmology of the Planes worked fine as they were, and were very easy to intergrate into an existing homebrew setting without unneeded reworking (the unnamed "dead god" in this instance would require a massive overhaul of my campaign settings pantheon, where no such event has ever taken place). It also seems to me that this makes "The Nine Hells" a much smaller place than it was previously (going from being the home of many multiples of gods to just the former realm of a single one). As they say "if it isn't broke, don't fix it!"
Really with all the changes WotC is making it really feels like they are just making the changes because they don't want design credits from anyone else. All cosmology, history, and races are all being rewritten so only WotC's in house staff get any credit.
Given this change I'm sure Grazzt will soon be a Devil Lord, a minor duke in Hell under one of the nine. Malcanthet will also move or be discarded.
Really WotC, you seem to be doing what so many businesses do, changing things for change's sake. The cosmology was fine. LEAVE IT ALONE!
Of course, it's likely these changes in the MM will be taken into the FR-books, they retconed the cosmology before.
If they were to do multiple books for this(if they did follow a "setting per year" philosophy) I would want to see a main campaign book, a monster manual, an "eras of play" book(for those that want to continue story arcs they had going before the faction war) and then maybe a few books taking a more in depth look at specific sets of planes. Possibly a magic book, but a section in the main books might suffice for that. A couple of adventures would be nice, but I see that as possibly becoming more the domain of D&D Insider.
I really like the "eras of play" idea. I think that could be used in a variety of settings. It would also make it easier for DMs who don't keep up with the novels.
Combining the Erinyes and Succubus into one? And then making it a Devil? Looks like they don't want to bring along the baggage of Malcanthet, one of the most popular demon lords currently. Sorry WotC, I'll be importing stats for my Succubus, They WILL be a seperate devil called an Erinyes. Malcanthet will continue.
Does it look as if they're trying to get rid of misinterpetations of cultural myth? The erinyes were not so much a seductress as punishers of injustice (in such a way to make them best deemed Lawful Evil) -- a woman with wings who punishes injustice somewhat harshly is NOT a seductress and probably not a devil so much as a mythic personification of the rage of Lawful Neutral deities. However, it might be in keeping with D&D tradition that they remain devils of the plane of... Acheron? Who is to know.
Now, a succubus is conventionally considered to be a demon or devil -- and succubi are now purportedly in the realm of Lawful Evil creatures? I do not understand which will take precedence in naming or interpetation, the Erinyes or the Succubus.
It is very likely that some of what we hear is not accurate.
And the folks at Planewalker intend to do a 4e conversion.
smoker
*chuckles*
It seems the first casualty of any decision to go in a new direction with D&D is whatever origin story of The Nine Hells/Baator that was presented under the previous state of affairs. We've had at least five different versions so far (I may well have missed one or two):
[snip]
Personally, I think it suits Asmodeus to keep the mortal realms guessing.
smoker
Don't worry about the new take on devils and demons, which I actually find rather intriguing. It will apply only to the default setting and if anything makes a Planescape book more likely, as it will now be different enough from the standard cosmology.
One of the things I liked about Planescape was that it could function as a 'meta-setting', allowing you to move between various campaign settings if you wanted to. If the new cosmology was very different from what's been established in previous editions, you'd lose that extra touch--either Planescape wouldn't be connected to the other places in the same way, or its own cosmology would be changed and it wouldn't be recognisably Planescape any more. While I don't think cosmology should be completely inflexible, I'd prefer it if any changes did not rule out the vast body of planar lore we have now.
A city filled with misfits and portals works just as well as an demiplane or a pocket dimension as a toric plane sitting atop an inifinitely-high spire. Given that Sigil occupies this aforementioned impossible position within the cosmology, its shape is probably not to do with its location.
As to the rest of Planescape, how many people actually walked from plane to plane? The gateway towns needn't be physically adjacent to both planes as long as there is some kind of magic involved. In fact, I do not see anything in my game changing that much just because they change the map.
Quite simply, if they change the nature of the planes, I will just do what I did for 3.0 and simply use my 2e Planescape boxed-set for all the fluff...
As to the rest of Planescape, how many people actually walked from plane to plane? The gateway towns needn't be physically adjacent to both planes as long as there is some kind of magic involved. In fact, I do not see anything in my game changing that much just because they change the map.
Me. I had players signing on with caravans and trekking around to find portals or gate-towns to jump around from.
I had players signing on with caravans and trekking around to find portals or gate-towns to jump around from.
Well, the portal towns needn't disappear, even if they do go missing in the 4e fluff. As I said, they can still be adjacent to both planes without the two planes being physically adjacent.
Beyond the concept of the Great Wheel (and said Wheel, beyond Sigil, is very much part and parcel of the setting) and some of the planar races predating PS, how much of D&D core does Planescape really "need" for its existence as a setting? Because so far as I can see, "Planescape: Torment" went a long way towards suggesting that you could peel away virtually all the things traditionally associated with D&D's basic fantasy setting and still come up with something that was very much Planescape (if however in that case somewhat more glum and less whimsical than the original material).
You can put your Godswalk players in Sigil, put I can tell you that they will be thinking in fives instead of threes. To me, that is the essence of Sigil; it strips away so many of the assumptions that players make and forces them to think before they start a fight. Torment is what Sigil is, right up until you add the traditional fantasy back in to personal taste.
There's no denying that Planescape needs to see some kind of return in 4e, though. If it waits 'til like, after 2010, I'm fine with that, but the setting is just too good and unique to ignore, or otherwise sterilize for the sake of fitting it into the 'core' setting again.
Okay, you don't get them anymore, if you don't allready have them, but beside of that? :D
The only thing they NEED to change is that crap about each setting having its own unique cosmology. That had to be the most ridiculous idea I ever heard. One of the things that made Planescape cool was that you could travel from any setting to any other setting. You could insert any home-brew setting whenever or where ever you wanted and you could have characters travel to any of the official settings if you wanted.
What's wrong with the 2nd Ed. books?
Okay, you don't get them anymore, if you don't allready have them, but beside of that? :D
Nothing is wrong with them.
However, content needs to be updated for new rulesets and made available to new audiences. Storylines/metaplot aspects (if applicable) need to be brought up to date, new features and elements need to be introduced while stale ones are phased out, and altogether it needs a periodic refurbishing or else it will eventually just stagnate and cease to be interesting. It should evolve like everything else.
-Starting from scratch (as opposed to being beholden to existing meta-plot loose-ends, not as in changing the feel of the setting and such)
-Written by Monty Cook, Neil Gaiman, & Clive Barker
-Illustrated by Tony D'Terlizzi, Rebecca Guay-Mitchell, & Mike Mignola
I'm in the day it's available and not a moment later.
It's all marketing.
They need to make money, they need to publish LOTS of books.
Well, what better place than the planes?
You could publish a book a month for years and never get to it all.
A daunting task indeed... but what fun.
[yes... this is actually a big hint in a not so clever disguise... build it... and they will come... err... buy it]
As to othe setting having their own cosomolgies well all I have to say to that is ," Well of course those clueless primers think they have their own cosomolgies, just like they call Tanari and Baatazu Demons and devils." See done. That is really easy to fix
And let's face it, it's obvious someone seems to want to damn this edition with bad MMO-related ideas. Why not counteract this by suggesting great background material!
2e Planescape did a great job of that through the approach taken in the product line, the atmosphere that was established through the idiom, the way that the adventures were written that encouraged the players to be clever and think things through rather than roll a lot of dice and kill everything that was a "monster".
Does Wizards of the Coast really know how to market that kind of thing? If Planescape were really to become it's own setting again, they'd have to cave to the fact that it's NOT about dice-rolling, that it's about roleplaying and thinking on a very abstract level. IS there a sizeable market for that now, even? I'd like to think so, surely, especially if they packaged it right. I really hope they do it--they've surely got people on the D&D team who CAN work with it.
I don't thing this is a segment in RPGs that wizards aim for. Looking at the publications of the last years, crunch is the targeted market segment with a couple of regional books for the FR in the beginning and that practically was it.
There's indication that there's a change in marketing strategy for wizards. There's a hint that the brand manager wants more fluff, since market feedback seems to indicate that.
I'm all for the factions still being around, just not exactly like they were before Faction War, since that would seem to be a cheap reset. Like I mentioned before, I want to see them there, slipping back into Sigil, but not prevalent in the way that "there can only be 15" with the Lady of Pain's decree and everything. I want to see if they can go into more detail about the Sons of Mercy, Sodkillers and Mind's Eye, with mentions on what some of the sects and formerly banished factions like the Incantifiers, Communals and the like are up to.
And most of all, a good description of each ward (The Hive, Lower, Lady's, Clerk's, Market and Guildhall) and Undersigil and what sets them apart, with plenty of room to add new material.
I would like a fat, clean, Planescape hardcover that is pretty much just like the original boxed set in terms of fluff, but of course there would be new 4th Ed mechanics.
I would also like the timeline to be frozen, so DMs can do what they like and not have to pay heed so some shmoe who writes a module a few years after release that violates and blows the setting out of the water.
…Hate the Faction War.
I would like a fat, clean, Planescape hardcover that is pretty much just like the original boxed set in terms of fluff, but of course there would be new 4th Ed mechanics.
The point with what I want to see, is that it is post-Faction War, and at the same time similar but different from pre-Faction War Planescape. Enough to resemble classic Planescape, and different enough that there's room to work around what was set in the classic setting.
The point with what I want to see, is that it is post-Faction War, and at the same time similar but different from pre-Faction War Planescape. Enough to resemble classic Planescape, and different enough that there's room to work around what was set in the classic setting.
I don't think it will be though...with the changing of the cosomolgy 4th edition will be nothing like Planescape. I actualy hope they don't bring Planescape into 4th. I can just use the old books...and would be happier that way.
Well, we don't exactly need anything to be in boxed sets anymore. I kind of prefer having them released in much more easily-carred books.
Blasphemer!
I would actualy conver to 4th edition if they did Planescap...though I really wished they would leave the D&D cosomolgy alone...
As to othe setting having their own cosomolgies well all I have to say to that is ," Well of course those clueless primers think they have their own cosomolgies, just like they call Tanari and Baatazu Demons and devils." See done. That is really easy to fix
Well said! The planes are infinite; the Great Wheel is only one of an infinite number of ways to imagine their arrangement. The convenient ring of gate towns around Sigil is nothing more than coincidence. Somewhere else on the planes, every belief is truth, every cosmology valid.
I would also like the timeline to be frozen, so DMs can do what they like and not have to pay heed so some shmoe who writes a module a few years after release that violates and blows the setting out of the water.
Frozen timelines are for MMOGs. I've had enough of that particular brand of processed cheese. Faction War was not the first faction war in Sigil and it will not be the last. The Lady knows what she's doing, and DMs can always do what they like, regardless.
Frozen timelines are for MMOGs.
So the Eberron campaign setting is a MMOG?
So the Eberron campaign setting is a MMOG?
:D You said it; I didn't.
:D You said it; I didn't.
D'oh! *slaps forehead*
D'oh! *slaps forehead*
In fairness, it looks like Eberron isn't going to be static for much longer -- or is it just a rumor that D&D4 is going to advance the timeline by two years?
I'd personally much rather have two years' worth of supplements that gradually advance a story than a sudden two-year gap explained away by materials after the fact. But maybe that's just me. I can see how there might be differing opinions about that.
J.
I'd personally much rather have two years' worth of supplements that gradually advance a story than a sudden two-year gap explained away by materials after the fact.
I became disillusioned and ill from advancing timelines thanks to FR.
Ironically enough, though, this advancing 100 years or whatever of the FR timeline is what is actually getting me moderately excited about FR again.
I became disillusioned and ill from advancing timelines thanks to FR.
Ironically enough, though, this advancing 100 years or whatever of the FR timeline is what is actually getting me moderately excited about FR again.
Don't get too excited. I'm sure Elminster is still alive. :D
Don't get too excited. I'm sure Elminster is still alive. :D
Not in my FR campaign (going for 19 years), he was slain years ago by Asmodeus around the time of the Yamun Kahan (Horde) invasion.
Not in my FR campaign (going for 19 years), he was slain years ago by Asmodeus around the time of the Yamun Kahan (Horde) invasion.
I knew I liked you.
...Okay, seriously, back on topic now.
Ironically enough, though, this advancing 100 years or whatever of the FR timeline is what is actually getting me moderately excited about FR again.
I think it's actually more like 10.
But I agree, this second 'advancement' of the Realms I experience has thaught me to create my homebrew setting with the aim of being timeless. When I want to write new stuff (still not enough to make it public) I'd put more depth into the details or maybe make optional "books" for changes of the world when playing in a different time of history, rather than changing things as they are by default.
The faction wars made me realize that too to a great part, to get back to planescape. :D
You could create a "Planescape" setting out of any cosmology. But THE Planescape is set on the Great Wheel, and it relies on the conceits of that (admittedly flawed) architecture to function. What we are losing in this change is only official flavor -- but then, when it comes right down to it, what else is there to a published campaign setting?
It is just unfortunate that Planescape was so tied to the fabric of AD&D2, and D&D in general, historically. While I disagree with the assertion that the Great Wheel was shoved down the throats of all AD&D2 settings, it was the default for most of them. In the end, Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance and Dark Sun and Greyhawk can change all they like without affecting any of the others or affecting the core of D&D as it stands -- but Planescape has to play the sacrificial goat whenever any change to the D&D cosmology is proposed.
As disappointed as I am to see what I perceived as a pillar of D&D fall, I think that we Planescape fans should just accept that our cosmology is no longer core, and move on. One never hears Dark Sun players complaining that the core wilderness survival rules are biased towards temperate forests, or the Forgotten Realms players complaining that Drizzt and Elminster don't play a major role in the history of all worlds.
Planescape is just another discarded official setting. It shouldn't be affected by these changes.
Every few years, the clueless change their ideas about how the planes work. Every few years, we prove why we call them clueless.
That too.
I really dislike this turn of events. The cosmology of the Planes worked fine as they were, and were very easy to intergrate into an existing homebrew setting without unneeded reworking (the unnamed "dead god" in this instance would require a massive overhaul of my campaign settings pantheon, where no such event has ever taken place). It also seems to me that this makes "The Nine Hells" a much smaller place than it was previously (going from being the home of many multiples of gods to just the former realm of a single one). As they say "if it isn't broke, don't fix it!"
If I may suggest something (at least for the whole dead god thing)? Gods usually die from a lack of worshipers. Lack of worshipers then follows on to a lack of mention in history books. This then has the god's name forgotten. I'm picturing the hall of dead gods in the Books of Magic (Vertigo, Neil Gaiman), IIRC, where there is hall after hall of statues. Most of them distinctive. None of them remembered. If you could even recall the name, you'ld start the path to resurect them. A dead god is a nameless husk waiting to be remembered. Pick a point where he is floating and leave it at that. After all, the Astral plane was supposedly littered with the things. A few githyanki cities were built on them.
Same thing happened in Feist's Riftwar Saga. There are a few Midkemian gods who are actually dead. Only the various High priests know the secret and they're using an artifact to mimic godly intervention to keep the faith alive in order to resurect the god. There is even a wizard who uses his magic to fake being the new high priest of a faith (Nakor the Islanti, don't recall the goddess).
Planescape would be, most likely, the single-most reason for me to get into 4th edition. Remakes of 3/3.5 editions won't do it. So, here's the pitch:
-Starting from scratch (as opposed to being beholden to existing meta-plot loose-ends, not as in changing the feel of the setting and such)
-Written by Monty Cook, Neil Gaiman, & Clive Barker
-Illustrated by Tony D'Terlizzi, Rebecca Guay-Mitchell, & Mike Mignola
I'm in the day it's available and not a moment later.
Gee, not asking for much are we?
Of course if that ever happened, I'd so be there for the book signing. I'd then stick that thing in a preservation chamber that would make the Decleration of Independence tres jelouse! :D
Combining the Erinyes and Succubus into one? And then making it a Devil? Looks like they don't want to bring along the baggage of Malcanthet, one of the most popular demon lords currently. Sorry WotC, I'll be importing stats for my Succubus, They WILL be a seperate devil called an Erinyes. Malcanthet will continue.
I concur. I think the whole combining of erinyes and succubi was a pointless move. In my game, both outsiders serve key critical and separate roles.
> work. Every few years, we prove why we call them clueless.
And you know, it's precisely that kind of snooty attitude being vomited all over other settings and cosmologies which caused Planescape to become so widely loathed and ultimately dumped as a setting.
A 4E Planescape? That would be fine by me as a setting concept, and I might even want to run a game or two there - but only if it drops its hubris of being "one cosmology to rule them all and everyone else is just too stupid to realize it" and establishes itself as being a cosmology of its own, separate from all of the rest.
And frankly, it would be better that way. Not only would it avoid infuriating the players of every other setting (and thereby causing Planescape to be dumped again), but it would free the prospective 4E Planescape to go its own way on everything without having to worry about the core rules take, just like 3E's Eberron was freed to do so by establishing itself with its own independent arrangement.
If it hadn't done that, if it had been a separate setting unto itself and not attempted to set itself up as a meta-setting that all others must ultimately answer to whether they liked it or not (and referring to them as clueless all the way), then it might not have become so roundly despised by the players of all of those other settings and thus not faced cancellation. It *is* arrogant for a setting to essentially declare, "your cosmology is just a misunderstanding of my cosmology" - especially when that setting was set up with a deliberately different one.
And forcing other settings into Planescape whether they like it or not does impact the setting - Eberron's cosmology being warped into "really being the Great Wheel" wreaks a great deal of damage to Eberron's thematic underpinnings, which the players are certainly aware of, even if (as usual) the characters in the setting are insultingly (to Eberron's players) dismissed as being too "clueless" to know it.
Let me reiterate - I like the idea of Planescape as a setting unto itself. I absolutely do not like the idea of it as one which attempts to force itself on all of the others.
(Edit: And it's worth noting that Monte Cook agrees with that - he has made his own comments about not having intended Planescape to be used that way.)
Edit Again: Since someone will probably demand a cite for something so unthinkable as Monte saying that not every setting needs to "really" be attached to the Wheel, here's one: http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_diary_33
No, it's not harsh. Referring to the characters (and all too often, the players) of other settings as "clueless" is downright insulting, no matter how "humorous" it may be perceived in terms of Planescape itself. Coupling this with a policy of, "my canon overrules your canon" makes it even worse. It's an incredibly arrogant attitude for a setting to take, and should never have been encouraged as part of Planescape's theme.
Neutronium, you make a strong point, but you are forgetting one very important thing --
Planescape players are better than you. We're better than everybody.
Didn't you get the memo?
No, it's not harsh. Referring to the characters (and all too often, the players) of other settings as "clueless" is downright insulting, no matter how "humorous" it may be perceived in terms of Planescape itself. Coupling this with a policy of, "my canon overrules your canon" makes it even worse. It's an incredibly arrogant attitude for a setting to take, and should never have been encouraged as part of Planescape's theme.
If it hadn't done that, if it had been a separate setting unto itself and not attempted to set itself up as a meta-setting that all others must ultimately answer to whether they liked it or not (and referring to them as clueless all the way), then it might not have become so roundly despised by the players of all of those other settings and thus not faced cancellation. It *is* arrogant for a setting to essentially declare, "your cosmology is just a misunderstanding of my cosmology" - especially when that setting was set up with a deliberately different one.
And forcing other settings into Planescape whether they like it or not does impact the setting - Eberron's cosmology being warped into "really being the Great Wheel" wreaks a great deal of damage to Eberron's thematic underpinnings, which the players are certainly aware of, even if (as usual) the characters in the setting are insultingly (to Eberron's players) dismissed as being too "clueless" to know it.
Let me reiterate - I like the idea of Planescape as a setting unto itself. I absolutely do not like the idea of it as one which attempts to force itself on all of the others.
(Edit: And it's worth noting that Monte Cook agrees with that - he has made his own comments about not having intended Planescape to be used that way.)
Edit Again: Since someone will probably demand a cite for something so unthinkable as Monte saying that not every setting needs to "really" be attached to the Wheel, here's one: http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_diary_33
I think you raise some very good points. It is true that the Great Wheel simply does not fit all setting concepts. Apart from Eberron, another good example is Dark Sun. Dark Sun was indeed part of the Great Wheel, but it was not a good fit at all and it felt very artificial for it to be that way. I like Planescape a lot, but it does not need to be the cosmology for all other settings to function, though it would be useful if it had some connections to most other settings in terms of portals.
Indeed, I think there is another benefit for Planescape that can be had by decoupling it from other settings. Planescape can then be presented/advertised as something new and unique rather than an adjunct to other settings.
On the other hand, though, Planescape did provide a common metastory for D&D, which a significant number of people enjoyed and followed, and this is lost with the separation of Planescape from other settings.
The idea is fun, if you play a planescape based campaign, but it doesn't work nearly as well if you're playing another setting and then want to make it compatible with planescape.
I think you can go everywhere from planescape, but you can't go to planescape from everywhere.
The idea is fun, if you play a planescape based campaign, but it doesn't work nearly as well if you're playing another setting and then want to make it compatible with planescape.
Exactly, it is easier to have a Planescape campaign and slip Eberron in there (as I am currently doing), than to play an Eberron campaign and slip Planescape in there.
To my knowledge, the Planescape setting has never forced itself on anything (unlike, say, Greyhawk for example) but instead has always taken elements of other settings into itself.
Er, and unilaterally displacing the cosmology of the Known World/Mystara setting -- one where Good and Evil weren't recognized as alignments, there was only one category of "fiends" (demons), and Immortals reigned over all of creation in place of gods -- wasn't spoiling the unique nature of a game-setting that had been every bit as long-established as Greyhawk? TSR's forcing Planescape's conventions on Mystara was one of the bad decisions that helped kill off that setting as a published product-line.
Er, and unilaterally displacing the cosmology of the Known World/Mystara setting -- one where Good and Evil weren't recognized as alignments, there was only one category of "fiends" (demons), and Immortals reigned over all of creation in place of gods -- wasn't spoiling the unique nature of a game-setting that had been every bit as long-established as Greyhawk? TSR's forcing Planescape's conventions on Mystara was one of the bad decisions that helped kill off that setting as a published product-line.
Glad to see you havent forgotten about Mystara Rotipher. I have to agree with Naderion though. That wasn't Planescape's fault. I see it just as much as a result of trying to force the AD&D cosmology onto a former Classic D&D setting. Why TSR and now WotC see a reason to connect cosmology to rules editons I will never understand.
Having said that, I was really disappointed to find that the Dimension of Nightmares had been reduced to a Demi-Plane. And reading the well written novel, Dark Knight of Karameikos and coming to the end of the novel and realizing that I had been reading a Planescape novel all along where my favorite setting was simply referred to as "that hollow one" almost had me crying.
Havard
Every few years, the clueless change their ideas about how the planes work. Every few years, we prove why we call them clueless.
Neutronium, you make a strong point, but you are forgetting one very important thing --
Planescape players are better than you. We're better than everybody.
Didn't you get the memo?
I lol'ed with those comments
No, it's not harsh. Referring to the characters (and all too often, the players) of other settings as "clueless" is downright insulting, no matter how "humorous" it may be perceived in terms of Planescape itself. Coupling this with a policy of, "my canon overrules your canon" makes it even worse. It's an incredibly arrogant attitude for a setting to take, and should never have been encouraged as part of Planescape's theme.
You missed the entire point of Planescape then.
Belief is everything. If the Planars stop calling the clueless just that then they might start thinking of the great wheel as the highly-signifigant hyperbolic parabaloid or some such. And then it really is the highly-signifigant hyperbolic parabaloid. Or at least it is until they decide to be PC for some other random Prime who says the multiverse is in fact shaped like a duck on a unicycle.
I would be there with bells on if this was to be made a reality.
I for one subscribe to the belief that the way Planescape connected all the other settings, including any homebrew world you may have created or wanted to create but never got around to, slays.
If only Tony would do the art again.....seriously! He made that setting what it was. No matter how great the writing, everyone can agree that it was his vision and styles that made that setting what it was. I still use my old 2e planescape books for inspiration, just flipping through them and looking at the artwork while listening to Peter Gabrials Passion is the recipe for creativity.
But yeah, from a business view point, I think that this would be a huge money maker for WOTC.
But yeah, from a business view point, I think that this would be a huge money maker for WOTC.
Planescape and Dark Sun are perennial favorites among many fans. I am, in fact, surprised these two settings were dropped to begin with.
Many fans don't make huge money, many more casual players do.
"Many fans"...
Many fans don't make huge money, many more casual players do.
Casual players normally buy products which have a solid fanbase. That's why they don't play Ars Magica, but AD&D/D&D, I think
A casual player won't buy all Eberron/Forgotten Realms products, simply because he is a casual player. However, if he someday finds his "favorite" scenario, e.g. Planescape, he can become a dedicated fan. That's how I became a Planescape fan.
Casual players normally buy products which have a solid fanbase. That's why they don't play Ars Magica, but AD&D/D&D, I think
And that's exactly why this new game gets labled as D&D 4th Ed. :D
As they say "if it isn't broke, don't fix it!"
On the contrary, I felt that Planescape was quite broken. Too many silly sacred cows, too many things that didn't make sense, failures of imagination (Slaadi frogs who weren't all that chaotic, mental-based movement on the purely physical inner planes, the nerfing of petitioners and prevalence of mortals in immortal domains, the obsession with the Rule of Threes, the oh-so haughty and pompous and overused Cant, etc. etc.)
I remember the diehard fundamentalists on the Planescape Mailing List who would bend over backwards to defend and rationalize everything that was "canon" at the time. Of course, all that old Planescape canon died along time ago with TSR and (I think) good riddance! I loved the potential of Planescape, I disliked much of the implentation, and I'm absolutely ecstatic that 4E will give it a well-deserved overhaul.
I loved the potential of Planescape, I disliked much of the implentation, and I'm absolutely ecstatic that 4E will give it a well-deserved overhaul.
Has this been confirmed?
If they release a 4th Ed Planescape, I say go back to the original boxed set (same for all the abandoned settings – Dark Sun etc).
…That Faction War business almost did my head in….
Has this been confirmed?
Oops, I mixed up "Planescape" and "cosmology". While the cosmology is getting the well-deserved overhaul, I can only guess that Planescape as a campaign setting is "officially" dead.
Oops, I mixed up "Planescape" and "cosmology".
It's not nice getting people's hopes up like that :D
While the cosmology is getting the well-deserved overhaul, I can only guess that Planescape as a campaign setting is "officially" dead.
Not necessarily. They'll probably just let it keep the great wheel cosmology all to itself. And possibly share it with Greyhawk.
Oops, I mixed up "Planescape" and "cosmology". While the cosmology is getting the well-deserved overhaul, I can only guess that Planescape as a campaign setting is "officially" dead.
Isn't it "no longer suported" since 99? A setting can't be more "officially" dead than this.
Isn't it "no longer suported" since 99? A setting can't be more "officially" dead than this.
It turned up here and there, and the great wheel was still in place. It wasn't dead so much just not occupying the limelight. Rule of Three (the Cambion of Sigil, no the actual rule) was mentioned in the Fiendish Codex 1 for example.
It turned up here and there, and the great wheel was still in place. It wasn't dead so much just not occupying the limelight. Rule of Three (the Cambion of Sigil, no the actual rule) was mentioned in the Fiendish Codex 1 for example.
Yeah, the 3rd Ed cosmology was Planescape-lite.
From what I have read in the worlds and monsters book, I am almost entirely sure that the 4th edition team isn't going to touch Planescape with a 12' collapsible pole.
I unfortunately agree.
Even though I totally dig the new cosmology, I will always love my clunky Great Wheel!
To the suggestion by EN World member Mouseferatu (Ari Marmell, whose name you'll see on Tome of Magic and Heroes of Horror) that: "Perhaps the eladrin known to dwell amongst mortals are simply the weakest of their kin, the fey that interact most frequently with the material plane. In other worlds, places with strange names like Arcadia and Arborea, far more alien eladrin, with powers beyond those comprehensible to mortals and strange titles like "ghaele" and "bralani," are said to dwell", Michele Carter, RPG Senior Editor, replied: "You're a smart guy, Ari."
Perhaps the true eladrin will survive the purge that has claimed all the other celestial races?
Perhaps the true eladrin will survive the purge that has claimed all the other celestial races?
But what of the Furries?!
…I mean, besides having dog-piles at Vegas conventions…
But what of the Furries?!
…I mean, besides having dog-piles at Vegas conventions…
Dan, my man.
Come on.
Don't buy into that nonsense that Wizards is spouting. Celestial beings with animal features are about as recent a development as cuneiform on clay. I never used the guardinals or archons, myself, and I am not arguing for their inclusion, but to say they were given a bullet in the head because they were "furries" is dismissive and ill advised.
Dan, my man.
Come on.
Don't buy into that nonsense that Wizards is spouting. Celestial beings with animal features are about as recent a development as cuneiform on clay. I never used the guardinals or archons, myself, and I am not arguing for their inclusion, but to say they were given a bullet in the head because they were "furries" is dismissive and ill advised.
Would I do that?
I lost faith when the writer of that article didn't seem to know the difference between a hound archon and a guardinal…
Oh, and thanks, for calling me your man (seriously, I'm flattered), I mean, I'm attached at the moment, but things are shaky, so you never know…
When the setting is not officialy supported, it's closer to death than very live.
And we see the classical planescape arrogance.
When the setting is not officialy supported, it's closer to death than very live.
As long as people play it, it'll never die.
Heck, the Great Wheel, yugoloths, and the Blood War (among other things) made it into 3e; sure, it's not all of Planescape, not by a long shot, but it isn't dead and buried past the point of resurrection.
And we see the classical planescape arrogance.
When the setting is not officialy supported, it's closer to death than very live.
Arrogance? What is that supposed to mean? I really think you need to think a bit about what you're talking about. It's a game, not something to get so antagonistic about. i was merely pointing out that people still play it and therefore it's still "alive". Though really, how does that apply to a gaming setting? Is a home brew world "dead" because it receives no official support? I'm sorry if I some how offended you or something. that was not my intent. Seriously you're attitude confuses me very much.
Planescape is dead. I loved it, adored it, but it's dead.
There's a life outside the mainstream.
Planescape needs to get its own little world. And stay there. Like a good D&D setting.
To the Planescape fan it was his reality... as someone said before "believe is power"... so if you believe that Dark Sun is the center of the Universe, so it is... you didn't need Planescape to say it otherwise...
BTW, I'd be the first to buy a PS book if they release it for the 4th Ed. I simply love the idea of something bigger and greater connecting everything else... and that should be the idea behind it (even though I'd like to see Sigil and the Outlands). :D
Planescape needs to get its own little world. And stay there. Like a good D&D setting.
'Sit, Sigil, sit, good city.'
Check the thread in the Rewards forum about the PHB armor page. Her Serenity willing, berks everywhere may have found there home again.
Cross your fingers
In the end, Planescape isn't so much about the crunch as it is about the fluff. I still use my boxed set from AD&D to a great extent ... more perhaps than I rely on the Manual of the Planes and certainly more than I rely on the Planar Handbook.
I don't need a Planescape AD&D with 4ed rules. I need a new Planescape, where everything evolved, like a living being... if you have problems with things evolving, you should stick to D&D 1ed or AD&D...
Sorry, but that's just my opinion... everyone has the right to disagree with it :D
People have problems that things evolve and change (not always for better, but change is a necessary part of being human)... I, particularly, don't. I want a Planescape 4ed, and I'd buy 2 just to be sure that they really did it.
I don't need a Planescape AD&D with 4ed rules. I need a new Planescape, where everything evolved, like a living being... if you have problems with things evolving, you should stick to D&D 1ed or AD&D...
Sorry, but that's just my opinion... everyone has the right to disagree with it :D
I have no problem with the game evolving ... if it's improving. Granted that's a very subjective concept. Perhaps to streamline it, my issue is not change but the impetus of change.
I'm not convinced that 4e is going to be an "improvement" over 3.5 From the various blogs I've read, the verdict remains mixed.
As such, if Wotc decides to update Planescape, I'd be wary on how they update it. For example, what if the Lady of Pain no longer is an enigma, but is statted out ... as a demon? devil? god? leshay? overgrown ewok?
It's not the changes in crunch that have me overly concerned. (Though this isn't to say I don't agree with some of the changes.) But rather, it's the changes in fluff . . . which, as stated prior, really makes up Planescape.
I also have mixed feelings about 4ed over 3.5, but I also have the same feelings regarding 3.5 and AD&D... some of the changes are great, but some aren't, but that's the way of things, it's impossible to make everyone happy... so the overall look should be, is it better in general or not? not the details of it...
But I agree, The Lady doesn't need stats.. but that's just a minor thing... the fluff needs to evolve... but it has to remain Planescape... right?!
I don't mind fluff changes as long as the general tone and feel of the campagin setting remains. The Lady of Pain, Sigil, philosophers with swords, beleif=power, ect. Specifics like the different guilds don't matter all that much to me.
The planescape campagin I ran in 3.5 though was the favorite game of everyone who had played in it
Does that sort of some up the idea of calling people from another campagin as clueless and as I rememeber it i remeber a quote that I am fairly sure was in one of the core box set books.
"I don't know about clueless but I sure know how to swing a sword" The last words listened by a planar underestmating some prime blood.
IT didn't say everyone was the prime was cluelesss because of there ability just because they did not understand the cosmology of the planes where it is commanly know in this realm.
And planescape is one of the best setting in the whole game you know why?
Well I want a party with a FR Incantrix, A warforge Monk, Dwarven Artificer, Sacred servent of Perlor and A reformed demon.
Sure why not just give me some back story and you can all play those things.
I'm pretty sure that is the ulitment end of the 4e idea of more options rather than less.
That being said, I loved PSCS unique flair, including the Chant, The questioning ideals of good/evil/law/chaos and all grey areas between, Tony's artwork, the quotes, the linking of worlds, the city of doors, the great wheel, the assorted planes (even the quasi and para elemental) ALL OF IT! And yes, it is a Dead system; as dead as Aoskar. Sure we still worship the GOD like nature of the Setting as far superior to others (even though said others did get fleshed out better). But its high time for an uprising of the faithfull and a return of the setting.
Personally I really disliked Faction War, and will remain dedicated to old setting when chosing between the two. And I would love a nice THICK hardcover book detailing (in Era style) each of the two, just for posterity sake... with eventual books to follow in latter months/years. Am I opposed to a release of PSCS with advanced timeline, not at all. Dosent mean I have to use it, but ill deffinatly buy it and give it a fair shake of the hand. In the mean time I will continue to worship at the temple of PLANEWALKER.com and use 2nd ed published litterature on the subject.
I do have to say this though: Planescape did give DMs abilities to connect various worlds and set up an established cosmology (sometimes in contradiction to previously established cosmologies). But were over looking the #1 steadfast rule of the game: "The DM is ALWYAS right!" if you dont want to use PS in your Toril or Eberon game, you dont have to, if you want to adapt PS cosmology (or even parts of it), by all means DO IT! Stop fretting about it messing up your cosmology. Your the DM, just dont incorporate. Publshed books are not cannons, they are suggested GUIDELINES.:P
[Anyone know of a PSCS PBEM I can join? Ive been looking to no avail]
Bill David
*FEARING THE LADY'S MAZE SINCE 1995*
Everything you said is absolutely true!!
I unfortunately agree.
Even though I totally dig the new cosmology, I will always love my clunky Great Wheel!
You love the new cosmology???????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you serious?
You love the new cosmology???????????????????????!!!!!!!! !!!
Are you serious?
God forbid we do.... it's stupidity.
"It's the damnedest thing; ever since a fortnight ago, there's been twice the barmies in the streets than usual, all of 'em rattlin' their bone-boxes about how there used to be more Powers, and that halflings were shorter, and the Cage used to sit on top of a big pole in the middle of a wheel filled with a hundred heavens and hells. Some of them Signers even claim they changed things themselves, turned the multiverse on its head just by thinkin' different, and other bashers just can't remember it. It's all rot. Any real blood'll tell you this is the way things have always been. Nothing's changed."
Foxtail wins at life [in planescape]...
By the way, in case nobody has done so, I am now coining the term. Planescape is a metaplane setting. Its a setting in a plane which is in fact about the other planes.
Foxtail wins at life [in planescape]...
By the way, in case nobody has done so, I am now coining the term. Planescape is a metaplane setting. Its a setting in a plane which is in fact about the other planes.
Yeah, metaplane and metasetting have been bandied about elsewhere. Kinda like, say, Amber is a metasetting (all things are possible there) or even
Stargate SG-1 could be a metasetting (gotta love them rings!).The way I see it, the Cagers' flexibility on view point and belief (i.e. that belief and one's point of view power what one knows and sees of the Planes) is what gets you through it all. As long as the Outlands look the same (big spire in the middle with Sigil on top, lot of gate towns to the major godly realms around the edge) it will be all good. They'll just point out that folks were confused about where gate towns let out. It wasn't this weird alignment is important kinda plane thing. It was onto specific pantheons godly realms.
Belief is power and perspective is everything!
I want any new Planescape books to be in the Great Wheel. But If that doesn't happen I would care that much really. I could probably still use the books if I wanted to. Even if I didn't, that still means new people are being introduced to Planescape. So if any of those new people happen to be in my area, I can either convince them to play in a Planescape game in the old cosmology, or I could play in the new one, because it's not like I hate it so much I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole or something.
Well, the fiends and celestials in Eberron do have their own background, too. So in the end it's just a matter of setting and with no core-setting at all the information in the MM will just be a suggestion for a background for any generic homebrew setting. Planescape is planescape, regardles of ruleset used.
Of course, it's likely these changes in the MM will be taken into the FR-books, they retconed the cosmology before.
Exactly, WotC has stated that the fluff so far has been for a Points of Light setting, not campaign specific, so if they make a Planescape setting, it may have previous fluff (including the Great Wheel).
When it comes to the cosmology however, I prefer the new cosmology, heck, I've been using it since Malhavoc Press published it
Peace,
Pyre
Oh and by the way, Greyhawk, Ravenloft and Dark Sun are definately getting 4e campaigns down the line as well as Planescape and Spelljammer (which they just started working out). They assured us that we can look forward to most of the old campaign setting being remade, and mentioned the above by name.
Should make some happy at least!
You can find the actual thread here.
And the fact that a setting is "on the list" shouldn't be taken as "Wizards is definitely publishing this setting." It just means the setting is on the list for possible future use.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4181407&postcount=23
Also, the original news that I read did not mention Planescape:
Forgotten Realms 4e is three books, period, done, end of line: Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Player’s Guide to FR, and DM’s Guide to FR. All settings will be done like that, one per year, until they run out of settings. They mentioned Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, and Spelljammer as settings on their list! Eberron, of course, is the ‘09 setting release (same three books), but it will also get DDI updates starting in June.
http://www.thegamerdome.com/
But that could just be incomplete information.
It really all comes down to whether you want to believe him or not!
I was just saying there was hope, and someone figuring out how planescape would/will work in 4E
Also, seeing how much WotC has fudged with the fluff of various settings, I'm reluctant to see what "cool" changes they intend to do with these settings.
BTW, this 3 books format is very nice!! Much better than 20 books that are impossible to read in a lifetime...
I hope that most of the changes are for better (since it's simply impossible to make something that'd please everyone).
"It's the damnedest thing; ever since a fortnight ago, there's been twice the barmies in the streets than usual, all of 'em rattlin' their bone-boxes about how there used to be more Powers, and that halflings were shorter, and the Cage used to sit on top of a big pole in the middle of a wheel filled with a hundred heavens and hells. Some of them Signers even claim they changed things themselves, turned the multiverse on its head just by thinkin' different, and other bashers just can't remember it. It's all rot. Any real blood'll tell you this is the way things have always been. Nothing's changed."
This should be the first paragraph in the new Planescape campaign setting book.
I wouldn't have ever played D&D if it weren't for Planescape. FR and Greyhawk just seemed too "generic fantasy" for me. I've enjoyed adventures in both now, but nothing compares to Planescape.
Recall that Planescape is heavily fluff. WotC has butchered the fluff of other settings (and Planescape as well) with its redesigned cosmology.
How Planescape (and Sigil) will fit into their new concept has me curious . . . and wary.
"It's the damnedest thing; ever since a fortnight ago, there's been twice the barmies in the streets than usual, all of 'em rattlin' their bone-boxes about how there used to be more Powers, and that halflings were shorter, and the Cage used to sit on top of a big pole in the middle of a wheel filled with a hundred heavens and hells. Some of them Signers even claim they changed things themselves, turned the multiverse on its head just by thinkin' different, and other bashers just can't remember it. It's all rot. Any real blood'll tell you this is the way things have always been. Nothing's changed."
Hah!
Made my day.
Seriously though, I'll be completely ignoring the new cosmology. That's the best alternative - I even ignored the Manual of the Planes (long ago when I still ran 3rd editoin) for making things too difficult. It doesn't change the fact that I'm a more than little offended they just chucked the combined work of some of the greatest D&D campaign authors out the window, but I'll deal.
Almost any player with a Planescape DM worth his salt should quickly realize the superiority of the setting, and won't be long in converting to 'our' way of thinking.
If we see anything with Planescape, it'll probably utilize the PoL cosmology (potentially looking like a frakenstein's monster of its prior self). I'd bet money on that being the case if they ever do it, though I'd hate to win that bet.
I don't see the current 4e writing team as well geared to do a 4e Planescape release that remains faithful to its origins, based on a number of things, but primarily statements about a lot of planar fluff that various members have stated thus far online, or in print (like the historical amnesia in W&M regarding what was actually said about daemons/yugoloths in the original 1e source that somehow justified making them "soldier demons" in 4e), and prior books in 3e by members of the team (Book of Exalted Deeds being the most obvious one).
But I might be wrong. They might decide several years from now to actually do a 4e rules Planescape that doesn't retcon everything to oblivion or shove it into the PoL setting (poor, poor FR). If they managed to do the research into the setting well (Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell actually wrote one book for the setting each, so if the will was there design-wise, it's not impossible), or had some of the original design team involved, or consulted with folks familiar with the setting they might pull it off. I'm not holding my breath mind you, but it's possible I suppose. They've got a hell of a lot to do to convince me of that however, given how 4e's default cosmology has been done and implimented thus far on other settings.
We'll see (assuming 4e doesn't tank, and/or the game gets sold, or 5e comes out before that point).
Shemeska, your storyhour writings are inspirational! Do post an update to one or the other soon.
But Planescape was about exploring and discovery, not overcoming overwhelming powers and odds. Sure there were exciting finales, but most of the time your characters were going to die unless you were extraordinarily lucky if you tried to charge into everything.
I may change my mind after playing 4E and understand it better, but from WotC had planned 4E and Planescape doesn't seem like the best partnership.