This is good, as it is one of my top three WotC settings that are currently not supported (Dark Sun takes the top spot and Planescape and Ravenloft tie for second, but I love them all :D ). So... how would you like to see 4E Ravenloft done?
However, I would absolutely love to see the Van Richten guides updated.
A monster manual would be welcome as well.
I personally think Ravenloft finally came into a Golden Age, setting wise, under Arthaus' tender cares. It was a fully realized setting that was no longer just a place for your other Campaign Settings to tromp into and tromp out of... It was more about horror than any other time in its history..
Not everything about 3E Ravenloft was perfect, there were some gigantic blunders, Secrets of the Dread Realms and Champions of Darkness being the two biggest ones.. But their were also great triumphs for the setting as well, my favorites being the Gazetteers, and Legacies of Blood. Thanks to the triumphs of 3E Ravenloft became more than just a setting with big tracts of land that had a Darklord in them. You actually got to find out about what the heck those tracts of land were like. And what the people were like.. This enrichment helped a lot, especially the folklore aspect which turned the setting into what it was trying to be in the first place...
Today a lot of players wants games of vampire hunters; Blade from Marvel Comics, Buffy vampire slayers, Val Helsing, videogame saga of Castlevania...
With other word, a D&D with undeads instead of dragons, or a medieval Underworld (movie) or Resident Evil, a Army of Darkness with magic instead shotguns, a crusade against zombies..
I´m afraid we are going to need a "Tomo of Horror" where PCs can be monster class with special powers (like from tome of magic: Pact, shadow and truename).
From all the information we get, 4th Ed. is focused on kicking some serious asses with a lot of style and more boom! and wow! and more everything. Doesn't really work for horror campaigns which are basically based on the idea that the PCs are utterly screwed.
If there is novels of Ravenloft, and they are sold well why not in the future..?
Scholar of Decay (Spetmber 2007)
Death of a Darklord (August 2007)
Tapestry of Dark Souls (june 2007)
To Sleep with Evil (March 2007)
I, Strahd: The Memoirs of a Vampire
Vampire of the Mists
Don't forget about the Lord Soth series. But he is no longer part of Ravenloft, in fact he no longer is part of any setting. One big figure that I wonder if the Chained God Vecna is still trapped there.
Sounds righteous? Cool, at least.
About Lovecraft myths...I hate Chutlhu and company!!!! It´s better WotC would creat their own and original myths about the far realm.
The problem is Ravenloft became a story of crusade against undeads once, again and again. Rv can not being only the gothic version of Jurasic Park. We need a great variety of monster and creatures. Other option is games of anti-heroes monster PCs (like shapechangers or dark fays) against the vampires lords or ancient mummies.
Other question is similar with world of darkness, the...overpopulation of supernaturals creatures. If each monster kill a humanoid being everynight then... all Ravenloft would be deserted in a couple of decades.
And what if the PCs are so powerful who they start killing lords of domain?
Now I see. How Lord Sorth from Krynn escaped of demiplane of Dread? How did Vecna became a deity?
Vecna has been a god for quite some time now. A couple of editions at least. As for Soth, I believe he escaped Ravenloft by virtue of Dragonlance and Ravenloft not being licensed to the same people during 3e. Storywise, I don't know. I always thought he was too apathetic to be a dark lord anyway.
The problem is Ravenloft became a story of crusade against undeads once, again and again. Rv can not being only the gothic version of Jurasic Park. We need a great variety of monster and creatures. Other option is games of anti-heroes monster PCs (like shapechangers or dark fays) against the vampires lords or ancient mummies.
That's all on the DM. Ravenloft isn't a story(novels aside), it's a setting. If the DM decides to make a cheesy zombie flick out of it, that's his business. There are plenty of horror themes to be utilized in Ravenloft, not all of which involve the undead.
Other question is similar with world of darkness, the...overpopulation of supernaturals creatures. If each monster kill a humanoid being everynight then... all Ravenloft would be deserted in a couple of decades.
Three things prevent this scenario. First of all, the majority of domains are ruled by a dark lord with a desire to rule. If the resident evils(heh) of the domain kill everyone, there is no one to rule. Second, the residents are superstitious, xenophobic and fearful. All three make for great survival traits when the supernatural really is out to get you. Third, there is no evidence to suggest that even souls can escape Ravenloft. So in all likelihood, they are eventually reincarnated so that they may continue to be tortured by the demiplane of dread. Tatyana of Baravia is a good example of this.
And what if the PCs are so powerful who they start killing lords of domain?
There is more to a dark lord than his stat block. Killing a darklord should be next to impossible. Defeat is a possibility under the right circumstances, but the land itself doesn't want to give the darklord up, not even to death. If his chips are down and there is even the slightest opportunity for escape, then the darklord will usually manage to pull it off. And very few of the dark lords are mortal enough to be impatient(except when their obsession/curse is involved). A defeated darklord suddenly becomes a far more dangerous opponent than he might of been when the PCs were considered to be insignificant.
But then too, even if one was aware that each domain had a supernaturally bonded lord, not all darklords advertise their existence or significance. Nor do all, or for that matter, many darklords act in anything that could be considered a direct manner. One could be facing the wrath of a darklord and never know that he was being targeted. Subtlety and manipulation are fine tools to use in a fight.
Let's that the Midnight campaign setting, by Fantasy Flight Studios. It's a rather high powered game, in many ways where everyone gets something because of the game's Heroic Paths. If you look at the Midnight SRD, it looks like a fairly high powered game. However, when you read the actual setting information (fluff rather than crunch) everything falls together to make it a dark, oppressive setting... I'd imagine with proper handling the Ravenloft 4e will be the same.
And as Moonslayer said, the "points of light" theme in the default setting of D&D fits Ravenloft quite well. I'm sure many people who played the setting will agree... Paladins are amazing in the setting because well... They're both the hero and the underdog.
Ravenloft is another setting that has good potential of being re-published by WotC during 4E. The license has reverted to WotC in 2005 and they are publishing novels for the setting, so it is not dead.
So... how would you like to see 4E Ravenloft done?
I want them to pick up where S&S left off and NOT ignore the source material already published.
Probably won't happen, though.
The problem is Ravenloft became a story of crusade against undeads once, again and again. Rv can not being only the gothic version of Jurasic Park. We need a great variety of monster and creatures. Other option is games of anti-heroes monster PCs (like shapechangers or dark fays) against the vampires lords or ancient mummies.
Part of the strength of RL has always been that you are given a short list of templates and such and expected as a DM to be able to come up with the challenges yourself. It's not all undead/werewolves/etc., it's the struggle of good vs. evil in a world that is predominantly evil.
And what if the PCs are so powerful who they start killing lords of domain?
...NPCs aren't static. I give them a level everytime the players level. NPC adventurers don't just chill in their castles, they understand they are constantly being challenged, so they keep going. it would be next to impossible to kill Lord Strahd or Azilan Rex, since they start out so much higher than the PCs.
Not everything about 3E Ravenloft was perfect, there were some gigantic blunders, Secrets of the Dread Realms and Champions of Darkness being the two biggest ones...
Both of these books were excellent and I use both on a decent basis.
Elements of Call of Cthulhu D20 should be put into Ravenloft. Now that the license for Lovecraft writings are in public domain, D&D can have a Cthulhu Mythos.
No, even though almost all of Lovecraft's works are public domain, Chaosium still holds the rights to do a Cthulhu roll playing game. All that Public Domain means is that you can print out and sell the Lovecraft works without paying a fee.
I personally think Ravenloft finally came into a Golden Age, setting wise, under Arthaus' tender cares. It was a fully realized setting that was no longer just a place for your other Campaign Settings to tromp into and tromp out of... It was more about horror than any other time in its history...
...Thanks to the triumphs of 3E Ravenloft became more than just a setting with big tracts of land that had a Darklord in them. You actually got to find out about what the heck those tracts of land were like. And what the people were like.. This enrichment helped a lot, especially the folklore aspect which turned the setting into what it was trying to be in the first place...
As neat of a concept as Ravenloft is, with it's plane of dread, domain lords, the dark powers, etc., I think it's what I'd most like to see changed. The domain lords were so often so selfishly obsessed with their own plights (and rightly so) that there wasn't much dynamic between domains. Coupled with the drastic differences between domains (environmentally, socially, technologically, etc.) it was like having a multitude of smaller settings in one.
And if there was a way in, there must be a way out, so why would anyone want to stay in such a horrid place? Between the Dread Lords' desires to escape and the Plane's active ability to "borrow" PCs and NPCs from other world, the setting was practically designed to be a "tromp in, tromp out" sort of place. Kind of like a setting of side adventures.
I'd like to see the setting revamped to be its own world where escape from the dread wasn't as "easy" as getting off the plane of existence. The characters should be a part of that world, born, raised, and expected to die in (and rise again?). Shift the focus from escape to survival. And I'd like to see it a single cohesive world, where their is more dynamic between domains, rather than isolated pockets with their own independent themes.
As much as I love the setting, I regretfully haven't played much of it under the 3rd edition rules. I love the gothic horror theme and the potential for great horror, madness, and fun. It would be a great thing to see Ravenloft returned to the portfolio of avctive campaign settings in 4th edition.
As neat of a concept as Ravenloft is, with it's plane of dread, domain lords, the dark powers, etc., I think it's what I'd most like to see changed. The domain lords were so often so selfishly obsessed with their own plights (and rightly so) that there wasn't much dynamic between domains. Coupled with the drastic differences between domains (environmentally, socially, technologically, etc.) it was like having a multitude of smaller settings in one.
And if there was a way in, there must be a way out, so why would anyone want to stay in such a horrid place? Between the Dread Lords' desires to escape and the Plane's active ability to "borrow" PCs and NPCs from other world, the setting was practically designed to be a "tromp in, tromp out" sort of place. Kind of like a setting of side adventures.
I'd like to see the setting revamped to be its own world where escape from the dread wasn't as "easy" as getting off the plane of existence. The characters should be a part of that world, born, raised, and expected to die in (and rise again?). Shift the focus from escape to survival. And I'd like to see it a single cohesive world, where their is more dynamic between domains, rather than isolated pockets with their own independent themes.
Thats what 3E Ravenloft was all about, Native Characters, it wasn't about escaping it, it was about living in that world and trying to survive and possibly bring light to it making it a better place...
No, even though almost all of Lovecraft's works are public domain, Chaosium still holds the rights to do a Cthulhu roll playing game. All that Public Domain means is that you can print out and sell the Lovecraft works without paying a fee.
Or base anything you want based on that material, including a rolE playing game
Or base anything you want based on that material, including a rolE playing game
No, Chaosium has the Trademark for that.
And I think it´s better is WotC doing a horror rpg with original material, because these ones can not be "imititated" by the competition.
I´m start to think the new Ravenloft will be a "reboot", letting bygones be bygones, starting again. This Rv would be a d20 Past 2.0. with Shadow Chaser from d20 Modern.
But before we will see the 4th Ed version of Libris Mortis and Heroes of Horror (with Dread necromancer like base class and a system of taint and sanity). We could call it the Player Guide of Ravenloft (100% rules and nothing of background). I would add one thing more: the tome of monster, a soucerbooks of monster class (vampires, shapechangers, ghosts....). Why? To getting the equivalent of WotC of World of Darkness from White Wolf Publishing. (I´m sorry, I can´t get it out from my head!!).
In the best of cases, we will see Ravenloft setting in 2012 the soonest.
For example: it is clear that the fact that a company creates a, say, King Arthur movie does not forbid anyone else to do the same, since the "Arthur" name & character and the legends about him are in the public domain.
TSR had problems with L&L because BACK THEN the writings of Lovecraft were probably not in the public domain, but since he died in 1937, that makes this one (2007 = 1937+70) the year in which the copyright about his works expires.
so are you saying that the last "King Arthur" movie was an infringment of the trademark of, say the "Excalibur" movie because it used the life of king Arthur in a film?
Did the excalibur film have a trademark on the use of the Arthur Legend in film? A quick and not detailed search of the trademark database shows that they did not.
I don't see Wizards making this a completely different campaign setting like Eberron, but they could easily use the Ravenloft material for all of us who like to play darker quests with more elements of horror.
I love Ravenloft, and my group is currently playing through a modified version of the 3.5 Expedition and having the most fun we've had in years. I hope we haven't seen the end of it.
But sometimes the parasite demiplanes are more dangerous, too. Then they are nightmare made reality (literally). Lots of people from different worlds are taken to find a apocaliptic realm with hordes of zombies or a great cript-labyrinth building where a psico-killer looking for news victims (with other way the parasite demiplane would be already empty of sentient life). Sometimes the victim is killed and... wake up in his bedroom. A bad dream? Perhaps, but he doesn´t know when he die his soul will became a petitioner from that parasite demiplane, doomed to suffering the same end again and again (killed by a monster or dreadful monster, before or later).
* About the setting of mask of red death... today would be a imitation of the Alan Moore´s comic of League of extraordinary gentlemen.
This is not to say I didn't like some of it's ideas, modules, or source books (mostly during 2nd ed). Some of those are pretty good.....
What I don't like is the overrall hodgepodge of the domain & the serious lack of creativity that went into naming it.
Nor do I like how it's most often played....
I think this materiel is best used inserted into ones own campaigns rather than played as its own "world".
Unfortunately that's not how the concept is "sold" to gamers, & therefore it's not how most use/play it.
So I for one would hope that the RL campaign setting (as we currently know it) stays dead & buried.
If it can be re-imagined to break out of the typical campaign world model? Fine bring it back. Otherwise leave it alone.
And sadly I have no hope that they'll ever ditch the logo....
If WOTC decides to take Ravenloft, and make it their own setting again. They need to take a look at what came before and especially at what White Wolf/Arthaus did for the setting in 3E.
White wolf RPGs are the worst RPS ever created. White Wolf did nothing good for Ravenloft and if Ravenloft becomes a DnD 4e setting I hope that WotC takes nothing from them.
Ravenloft began as a WotC setting and should end that way. Nothing from any 3rd party should influence in any way and to do that would only cheapen it.
I hate White Wolf games, they suck.
White wolf RPGs are the worst RPS ever created. White Wolf did nothing good for Ravenloft and if Ravenloft becomes a DnD 4e setting I hope that WotC takes nothing from them.
Ravenloft began as a WotC setting and should end that way. Nothing from any 3rd party should influence in any way and to do that would only cheapen it.
I hate White Wolf games, they suck.
...Did you really read them, or do you just dislike White Wolf? Most of the Swords and Sorcery Ravenloft products were written by pretty hardcore Ravenloft fans that kept the setting going before WW picked it up; and it was all damn good material that kept the flavor of the setting. What exactly did you dislike about the material?
...Did you really read them, or do you just dislike White Wolf? Most of the Swords and Sorcery Ravenloft products were written by pretty hardcore Ravenloft fans that kept the setting going before WW picked it up; and it was all damn good material that kept the flavor of the setting. What exactly did you dislike about the material?
Admittedly, they do have good writers and they are great horror fantasy storytellers. They could add a lot to the story elements and background for Ravenloft. As long as they do not try and change it, Ravenloft should always be the Demi-Plane of dread whose origins come from Strahd and the domain of Barovia.
I just have something against the games that White Wolf has released. I hated vampire the masquerade, werewolf, and Hunter the reckoning games. I don't like the idea of playing in a real world setting where vampires and such are running around completely unnoticed by the masses. Also the d10 system the game uses is horrible, the character creation system is lacking, and there are a number of other problems the game has.
And don't even get me started on L.A.R.P. that was the worst idea I have ever seen. Those people (at least the ones I have observed in my area) are insane. A bunch of goth people dressed up and acting like morons. Groups of them would walk down the street at night on their way to the common place they all "played" the game. They looked ridiculous, hissing and growling at people and pretending to be vampires. They make fools of themselves.
Whenever I have played WW RPGs before it has always turned out to feel like an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I just don't like the feel of the game and thus I get a queasy feeling when I hear that the people responsible for these games are going to try and write material for the Ravenloft setting.
Admittedly, they do have good writers and they are great horror fantasy storytellers. They could add a lot to the story elements and background for Ravenloft. As long as they do not try and change it, Ravenloft should always be the Demi-Plane of dread whose origins come from Strahd and the domain of Barovia.
I just have something against the games that White Wolf has released. I hated vampire the masquerade, werewolf, and Hunter the reckoning games. I don't like the idea of playing in a real world setting where vampires and such are running around completely unnoticed by the masses. Also the d10 system the game uses is horrible, the character creation system is lacking, and there are a number of other problems the game has.
Whenever I have played the games before it has always turned out to feel like an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I just don't like the feel of the game and thus I get a queasy feeling when I hear that the people responsible for these games is going to try and write material for the Ravenloft setting.
I agree, for the most part; about White Wolf (although I love the Hunter and Demon games, simply because both destroy White Wolf's typical cannon) but the Ravenloft books were on the Swords and Sorcery/Arthaus imprint and for the most part were written by the games fans. Some products admittedly (Heroes of Light, Champions of Darkness, and the "Class Weakness" in the Ravenloft Player's Handbook) were poor products, but over all the quality was excellent, especially with the Gazetteers. In fact, if WotC decides to release Ravenloft in 4e, I hope they hire the writers that worked on the bulk of the 3e books... At least for the fluff.
With the new world I am already starting to outline for 4E, it will be much easier to create a more gothic atmosphere since being cut off won't necessarily raise an alarm to anyone in the surrounding area. I love the gothic stories and hope that WotC continues in some venue the tradition of the gothic ghost story/horror fiction.
Chaosium's trademark for Call of Cthulhu is only for the game Call of Cthulhu -- while they purchased rights, these rights are no longer exclusive since many of the works of Lovecraft *very recently* have became public domain. A bit earlier I saw a legion of blurbs on the internet about Lovecraft's writings becoming all public domain but this might have been hype about a small number of writings.
In any case, Chaosium should be proud about their trademark over the title "Call of Cthulhu" for an RPG but it probably wouldn't prevent an Alien God mythos using the actual names of Lovecraftian creatures. They are permitted to do this as long as they do not emulate the rules used by Chaosium nor use trademarked systems. Lovecraft is public domain I hazard to say.
And regardless of what you might read, ST Joshi does not own any trademark nor copyright over Lovecraft's work although if his revision has particularities of Joshi, then it may be seen as an edition of Lovecraft that is "owned" by him. Hence all writings of Lovecraft by Lovecraft are probably public domain -- anything from 1927 and before, I think.
I rather adore the idea of "strange alien gods" directly of Lovecraft's writings invading Ravenloft, conspiracies spreading wide throughout the land. It would be interesting to say the least...
First I will summarize the long forthcoming with the summation that it's ok to use Cthulhu and companions in a game as long as they do not use works of Lovecraft yet protected and systems and specific interpetations used by Chaosium. Therefore we can find Cthulhu but not Cthulhu that drains "sanity points" so much as has a fear effect that could drive a character crazed. A Cthulhu Mythos Knowledge skill might not be wise to include. Spells should not cause insanity per se, but devotion and exposure to entities and strange drugs might have deleterious effect on a character -- especially with alignment considerations.
Chaosium's trademark for Call of Cthulhu is only for the game Call of Cthulhu -- while they purchased rights, these rights are no longer exclusive since many of the works of Lovecraft *very recently* have became public domain. A bit earlier I saw a legion of blurbs on the internet about Lovecraft's writings becoming all public domain but this might have been hype about a small number of writings.
In any case, Chaosium should be proud about their trademark over the title "Call of Cthulhu" for an RPG but it probably wouldn't prevent an Alien God mythos using the actual names of Lovecraftian creatures. They are permitted to do this as long as they do not emulate the rules used by Chaosium nor use trademarked systems. Lovecraft is public domain I hazard to say.
And regardless of what you might read, ST Joshi does not own any trademark nor copyright over Lovecraft's work although if his revision has particularities of Joshi, then it may be seen as an edition of Lovecraft that is "owned" by him. Hence all writings of Lovecraft by Lovecraft are probably public domain -- anything from 1927 and before, I think.
I rather adore the idea of "strange alien gods" directly of Lovecraft's writings invading Ravenloft, conspiracies spreading wide throughout the land. It would be interesting to say the least...
The problem is "strange alien gods", while perhaps interesting for an island of terror, or even an entire cluster goes against the themes of Ravenloft. A campaign setting, Ravenloft leans more towards gothic horror and dark fairy tales as its thematic influences, along with the decent into evil. Not to mention fiends in general fit the "strange alien god" role in Ravenloft without having to draw in sources that don't, at least in my opinion.
Of course, that's only if any Ravenloft in 4e has any resemblance to the old, do to the setting's closed nature and limited fan base Wizards is likely to turn the setting into whatever they would think would sell the best. (And this is coming from someone who actually is looking forward to the new edition.)
White Wolf did nothing good for Ravenloft and if Ravenloft becomes a DnD 4e setting I hope that WotC takes nothing from them.
Actually this was pretty independent from the usual WW-stuff, it was more or less "Ravenloft by Ravenloft Fans, Published by WW", and until the 3.5-Update, it was IMHO the best thing to happen to Ravenloft EVER.
Ravenloft became a fullfledged setting that was actually playable by itself. It had small rule-changes that did fit D&D 3.0 (whoever did this had IMHO a far better understanding of the game than say Mongoose and many other independent publishers). But these changes fitted the setting as well, whithout going all meatgrinder (or screwing characters over for their class choice). The write-ups for various domains (with the Gazetteers) and the re-interpretation of the timeline (fixing many hickups without devaluing the source) were a piece of art.
It was D&D3.0 and pure Ravenloft-goodness. At least until the 3.5-update and the Kargatanes demise. WotC should really not take a look at "Ravenloft 3.5 (Now with 20 % more Angst)".
How did Vecna became a deity?
Vecna became a demigod at the beginning of 2e at the latest. He became a lesser god and thus was able to escape Ravenloft at the very end of 2e, in what was a decent idea executed horribly. And I mean horribly. It screwed with virtually every single campaign setting that existed at the time.
I honestly like them to revamp (no pun intended) the Ravenloft setting. Keep the idea that domain lords cannot leave their territories, but they can expand them. King Azilian is gone but I like it if they put Vecna in that domain if there isn't a problem with setting crossovers. Have the demi-plane resemble the prime material in the since no island domains that ALL domains are connected to the core. Develop a pantheon for RL with the option of bringing in other deities.
No. Keep Azalin. He's as iconic to the setting as Strahd, and a -great- character who move much of the history of the setting... And well, if he's there you can explain damn near and changed based on his schemes. Also, Ravenloft does resemble the "Prime Material Plane". Most Core domains have connections to other game worlds.
No. Keep Azalin. He's as iconic to the setting as Strahd, and a -great- character who move much of the history of the setting... And well, if he's there you can explain damn near and changed based on his schemes. Also, Ravenloft does resemble the "Prime Material Plane". Most Core domains have connections to other game worlds.
Sorry to say but he is gone. His land is in ruin.
Sorry to say but he is gone. His land is in ruin.
Lord of the Nercopolis was declared non-canon by the Kargatane, which was an -official- source for the Ravenloft campaign setting. There were plans for his returned in the adventure Death Undaunted, but the Ravenloft line was canceled before it could be released, and the 3.X Ravenloft Campaign setting more or less assumes the events happened. He's still around, and all the more agitated.
Lord of the Nercopolis was declared non-canon by the Kargatane, which was an -official- source for the Ravenloft campaign setting. There were plans for his returned in the adventure Death Undaunted, but the Ravenloft line was canceled before it could be released, and the 3.X Ravenloft Campaign setting more or less assumes the events happened. He's still around, and all the more agitated.
:D Excellent :D
The problem is "strange alien gods", while perhaps interesting for an island of terror, or even an entire cluster goes against the themes of Ravenloft. A campaign setting, Ravenloft leans more towards gothic horror and dark fairy tales as its thematic influences, along with the decent into evil.
I am not altogether certain how familiar you are with the writings of H.P. Lovecraft, but his short stories do contain elements of dark fairy tales and descent into madness. One must understand that Beyond the Wall of Sleep, Doom that Came to Sarnath, Dream Quest to Unknown Kadath, Hypnos, and numberless other fictions of his pen were all modelled on myth and faerie tale.
As to Gothic Horror, Lovecraft hardly had romance at all in his fictions -- Poe, who was a strong influence on Lovecraft, did most of that.
I was to start a "Call of Ravenloft" game that was interrupted by sociopolitical concerns. It did not differ en large from Ravenloft: a small village among riven and twisted woodlands, well fleshed NPC who cared about eachother and their situation... and there were to be certain issues arising apart from Urik, leading up to situations with byakhee and worse.
A game can become far more interesting if even the enemies have enemies.
I am not altogether certain how familiar you are with the writings of H.P. Lovecraft, but his short stories do contain elements of dark fairy tales and descent into madness. One must understand that Beyond the Wall of Sleep, Doom that Came to Sarnath, Dream Quest to Unknown Kadath, Hypnos, and numberless other fictions of his pen were all modelled on myth and faerie tale.
There is a difference between Lovecraft's writings (some of which -are- great inspiration for Ravenloft) and the Cthulhu myth cycle that "strange alien gods" fit into. The later has no place is Ravenloft as a whole. Like I said, the themes could fit into a Island of Terror or a cluster... But if forced into Ravenloft as a whole do not fit.
I was to start a "Call of Ravenloft" game that was interrupted by sociopolitical concerns. It did not differ en large from Ravenloft: a small village among riven and twisted woodlands, well fleshed NPC who cared about eachother and their situation... and there were to be certain issues arising apart from Urik, leading up to situations with byakhee and worse.
A game can become far more interesting if even the enemies have enemies.
The enemies do have enemies, already. Often they're tormented by themselves, with war from neighboring countries a risk... Not to mention the Dark Powers rule all. (And the Dark Powers -could- be Strange Alien Gods... But forcing them into that mold goes against cannon)
Ravenloft is far to purposeful to be truly Lovecraftian. The horror of the Mythos is not that strange creatures with god-like powers might wipe all of humanity out, its that those powers might do so as unthinkingly and carelessly as we would stepping on an ant on the sidewalk.
Bingo. It's very nihilistic; and while Ravenloft is a very dark setting... At the end of the day, while there's more shades of grey than the typical setting... I'd say it's more about the battle between good and evil than other setting. Van Richten is a great deal more heroic than most other good D&D NPCs.
Despite what I've heard some people say in above posts, I can honestly say that White Wolf did a great, if not fantastic, job at maintaining the setting as a whole. Personally, the only reason Wizards sold the licensing in the first place was so that the setting would continue to live on while they worked on other projects.
One of the things that I have come to enjoy so much about DnD post-Eberron is the fresh style and feel of the game. It seems to be a game well aware of its roots and able to evolve them without feeling tired.
Looking back on the 'golden' Ravenloft days I have to admit, I posses mixed feelings. The campaign setting had a lot of charm and personality, but as with so much 2nd edition material it now appears like a total mess.
The setting is brutal, at times under-rewarding and at its worst it can be a drag to play. This tends to be popular with the semi-masochistic school of players who think that being harshly treated makes them 'hardcore' or simply put, a 'cut above' others. However, to the majority it just isn't so fun to engage with on a long-term basis.
Then there's the endless list of (literally) horrific and quite possibly copyright infringing cliches. Almost everything in the game was direct theft from Gothic Horror classics and 'modern day' b-movies.
Horror is always hard to do, and cinema is a perfect showcase for this fact. Horror movies have always passed in waves of popular taste and within which there occurs very little variation. As it is modern horror seems to be set firmly in the hyper-violent nouveau slasher frame. It seems that being provoked to lose one's lunch has replaced the installation of genuine and thought-provoking 'unease' as the genre's chief goal.
So what would I do with a, 4E Ravenloft setting?
Put simplistically, I believe there are three options:
a) abandon the concept of Horror as a theme and establish something new
b) Keep the somewhat campy classic gothic horror for the sake of nostalgia
c) Scrap the face paint and rattling chains and establish a new "demi-plane of dread" (honestly, could you ask for a more over-the-top, unimposing name?) and begin a whole new canon with a modern take on horror.
I think many people would (hopefully) plump for the last option, but what might this new world entail? Is there anything that can be salvaged from the classic Ravenloft?
Its tempting to just move the time line along and set the world in the masque of the red death style era. It does provide a modicum of fresh concepts, black-powder, clockwork, steam-engines etc.
But aside from these nuts and bolts, what is the real heart of the setting? Is it still going to be vampire and werewolves, ghosts and hags, Liches and slightly melodramatic cursed souls?
I think its time to move a little bit more up to date with the concept of horror and not just the chronological setting.
Some people have brought up HP Lovecraft in this thread, something which I'm far from opposed to. I'm going to talk a little about him, and what he might have to offer the setting below, but first of all I'd better just establish what I mean when I talk about HPL.
I'm a fan of his writing, and I'm also a fan of the Cthlulhu Mythos, and if you think they're the same thing its probably a good job I detoured in to these remarks. HPL's writing is predominantly very bleak, poorly written, rather abstract and ultimately futile and pointless.
Forgive me for the semi-flammable previous statement, perhaps I had best describe what I mean. When I say its poorly written, i mean its, well poorly written, but it doesn't necessarily obstruct the message it conveys and so for my purposes i think its probably OK to ignore this. Secondly when I say his writing is futile or pointless, I mean in its content and not its application.
His work is very relevant, particularly to those of an atheistic persuasion, as it really makes one dwell on the notion of the universe as a wild and unguided place. While 'his universe' eludes to vaster things beyond human knowledge, there is not comfort nor purpose to be found there-in (except for those cultists bent on bringing about universal destruction intentionally or other-wise). Importantly for our purposes there is very little notion of heroics, righteousness or even morality.
The Cthulhu Mythos (from its early conception to its modern application) on the other hand has a slightly more traditional approach. There are 'Gods and Monsters' and there are those who would oppose them. The bright and the brave risk life and limb (and often 'lobe') to keep the rest of us securely locked up in ignorance by averting disaster.
Having established what I think of HPL's writing and how it differs from that which it is usually mixed in to, the Cthulhu Mythos I should now go on to say that there is much that RL can learn from it.
When I think back to my experiences (as a player and as a DM) within Ravenloft, two of the central themes seemed to be loneliness and adversity. The PCs are resigned to wander a land gripped by tyranny and fear, unable to improve things, but equally powerless to ignore the injustices that are perpetrated.
So they come and go from place to place, looking to hold back the tide, to help improve peoples lives on whatever small scale they could, while trying to avoid accidentally making things much worse and keep themselves alive at the same time.
I believe this to be the essential essence of Ravenloft, though admittedly it is certainly a much grimmer and less glamorous one than is found in other settings. It needn't however rely on a whole host of tired cliches and overly harsh game mechanics to accomplish it.
Nor should it be impossible to feel a sense of achievement in such a place, after all when things are dark, even a small light can be radiant (I apologise for this 4th rate poetic sentiment.
Well, that was extremely long-winded and all well and good, but what do really need in a setting to accomplish this? The crucial sentiment, is that of the 'Long Defeat' a phrase coined by, among others, Tolkein. Put in my own (somewhat garbled) words, this is the idea of,
"The world may be going straight to hell, but I'll be damned if I'm going to stand by while it does".
You may know your endeavors will be ultimately futile, but it doesn't stop you from pursuing them. There is something really very heroic in this notion, possibly even more so than when victory is a real possibility.
So how do we establish a world with a 'Long Defeat' to be fought?
Obviously the key ingredient is that which is going to cause ruin in the world, and there are three simple sources for this:
a) An external force. By this I mean external to the "good races", so "evil races" or some form of evil outsider.
b) An internal force. Some member of the supposedly good side has betrayed his fellows for his own personal gain.
c) "Destiny". Let's say a natural disaster is imminent (like all those terrible asteroid movies) then it is something outside the direct control of a living creature.
The most cliched of these three is probably the first, though the second one pops up quite a lot too. So what about the third one, perhaps we can have a world that is just literally falling apart at the seams and there is nothing that can be done to stop it.
Well thats a good start, for one it introduce the question, Who knows this is happening?
Some don't know anything, in fact the majority of people don't and so just continue on with their lives. This is a good place for 1st level PCs to start off from.
A few might know that something is wrong, but unsure what exactly the scale of the problem is (are they going to build a by-pass through your house, or your whole planet?). These people serve as a good way to first open the PCs minds to the idea that not everything is as they thought.
Most interestingly of all are those who know a good portion of the truth, and how differently they might react. Some people may take the opportunity to act corruptly, others to abandon all faith and simply give up, others might try and warn their fellow man and yet still more may actually try and do something about it. This last part is where the PCs will eventually fit in.
A campaign might look like this:
The PCs have no idea something is wrong.
Begin to discover they don't know everything about their world.
Stumble upon some dastardly scheme and choose to foil it.
Investigate what lead the scheme to begin.
Discover that something bad is going to happen.
Encounter others who know.
Unravel a vast plot to exploit the situation
Foil said plot
Discover the real truth about what will happen
Continue to help people despite the futility
Try and find a way to prevent it from happening
At this last point, its up to the DM whether or not to allow the PCs to actually, beyond all odds, save the day. Or just to have it be the case that there actually isn't anything that can be done.
So what do we have? A world that is heading on a collision course with destruction, and PCs presented with a slow realisation that nothing can be done to ultimately save it. There are plenty of opportunities for interesting character along the way, a multitude of possible villains, exploiting the situation.
But it doesn't sound a lot like Ravenloft does it? Well, no. That's because it isn't Ravenloft. But I do think that it fulfills some of the things Ravenloft did.
To be truthful, if you liked Ravenloft for what it was, then you don't need something new. Take the 4th ed. game system and the old Red Box/Black Box/Domains of Dread and you have everything you need to write new 4th ed. RL material.
Me? I'll be happy to either hold out for something more than the "face paint and rattling chains" or just enjoy the memories of what Ravenloft used to mean to me.
From all the information we get, 4th Ed. is focused on kicking some serious asses with a lot of style and more boom! and wow! and more everything. Doesn't really work for horror campaigns which are basically based on the idea that the PCs are utterly screwed.
the same can be said about 3e and earlier versions, as well. d&d isn't designed for PCs being "utterly screwed". but that just means that some work has to be done (probably largely on the dm's part) to make the setting different than standard.
Sorry to say but he is gone. His land is in ruin.
Every single 3rd ed source details his return to power and the fact that Darkon is alive and well (or at least shambling and moaning) again.
Long live Azalin Rex! :D
Black Winged Heaven
(Jeremy Puckett)
Really... this has been written before. I do not care to reply to old statements that are wracked over and stupidly so.
The Warlock has some mechanical concerns (no planar access in Ravenloft - it 4e, it would be it own island in the Astral Sea), but those are readily addressed (The Dark Powers would readily step up to the plate). Curses as a primary feature of the class? Awesome. It might be more of an NPC class than anything else, but it would be a terrific one. Trimming out the Wizard for the Warlock in Ravenloft might even be a viable campaign choice.
Ah, Azalin. My all time favorite NPC. He was the PC's patron in my campaign (They were all clueless Darkon natives, and low-ranking Kargatane draftees). I played him as an incredibly sarcastic man who could level you with one acid-etched comment. He also tended to doodle in the margins of every note he sent... one of the perils of a 25 Intelligence. One of these days I'm going to restat Azalin as a Heroes of Horror Dread Necromancer... I can't see him as a 4e Warlock just yet, but maybe when we get hard numbers I'll change my mind.
Strahd as a Warlock, though? Heck, yes. "I made a pact with Death..."
Elements of Call of Cthulhu D20 should be put into Ravenloft. Now that the license for Lovecraft writings are in public domain, D&D can have a Cthulhu Mythos. This would increase the danger and challenge of Ravenloft. Not only would good characters be hunted into undeath but evil characters would be constantly endangered of losing their sanity, being accursed through evil acts, and even being imprisoned as a dark lord. Or even being devoured by strange beings from beyond the stars (not starjammers) that elongated and bloody rituals call through the Mists.
Sounds righteous? Cool, at least.
[Repressing the urge to rant incoherently] I believe your idea isn't appropiate: Ravenloft is about we as evildoers and the responsiblity of our actions. Cthulhu is about "you can't be responsible for anything because, in the cosmic scheme of things, you're plancton" and the very little and futile victories against the madmen.
Are there some overlapping elements?? Yes. The madness, the corruption, the helplessness. But overall Cthulhu and RL are very different (I love them both). Your claim reminded me of a friend who said the coolest thing in the world would be if the Starcraft and Wow universes collided.
Your claim reminded me of a friend who said the coolest thing in the world would be if the Starcraft and Wow universes collided.
You mean something like Warcraft 40K? ;)
-It's the perfect 'points of light' setting
-It's not an XP grind kind of setting, which goes with 4E's stated goal
-WotC will have Realms, and other high-fantasy or bread-and-butter settings, so Ravenloft should be the unusual/change-up pitch setting:
--it's a more mature setting, in both senses of the word [R-rated content; and themes adults can handle better such as irony, fear, horror, madness, the seeming futility of good in a world of evil, etc etc]
--it's tilted toward roleplay and low magic, unlike the other main WotC settings
--horror/survival movies and video games are a popular sub-genre
--gothic themes are central to Lord of the Rings books/films, the popularity of which is one of the main draws into PnP play.
--making it work with 4E would show to the rpging world that 4E is more than a WoW/miniatures power-gaming edition.
--it can tie in readily with today's public fears, such as the environment, disease, corruption, terror and so on.
In short, it's an ideal setting to show breadth and depth to 4E dnd. Purely competing with or copying WoW kind of stuff is a mistake. Diversify...
Make part of your brand about doing what MMORGs and computer games can't do..... Ravenloft is an ideal setting for that.
I expected to find this thread in a bit of a tizzy over the new D&D Fiction post on the main site.
But by all means, please let WotC know.
There's a very loud, very vocal component of the market that's opposed to seeing fiction in Dragon Online in any way, shape, or form. If you want to see more of it--not just mine, but anyone's--WotC needs to know that there's a demand.
Make comments on the actual Digital Initiatve forums, not just hear in the "Other Worlds" forum. Or send them an e-mail. But make sure they hear you.
But nothing of a Van Helsin (movie) or Castlevania saga videogames (only killing monsters).
You mean something like Warcraft 40K? ;)
You really should examine the history of Blizzard and Games Workshop to see how stupid the reality actually is.
I wouldn´t like a Lovecraft style, but more like the marvel comic of Ghost Rider and Sons of Midnight (morbius, blade, darkhold...).
... But nothing of a Van Helsin (movie) or Castlevania saga videogames (only killing monsters).
GAWD how I loved those series from Marvel... but vehemently no for a Ravenloft setting that reflects it.
My Ravenloft is just a world, just like any other... for a few levels. My PCs are usually 3rd or 4th level before they ever have reason to believe that anything's wrong. As I continue my re-write on the setting, I'm doing a lot of crazy stuff, but there's not a Far Realm connected to my Ravenloft. (insert ad nauseum references to my Ravenloft)
The point here is that the game played at my table is different from what Wizards or White Wolf/Sword & Sorcery/Arthaus has published or will publish. I know specifically who and what the DPs are in my campaign setting, but I wouldn't wish that on anyone else... I'm all in favor of Wizards resurrecting the Ravenloft novel line (I'd really like to get my name into that line), but the campaign setting? The Fraternity of Shadows is doing a fine job with that.
(Ari wrote a story?!?!? Toodles away...)
My own Ravenloft is a "parasite demiplane". A haunted place what usually get victim from other worlds (Toril, Faerun, Arthas, Mystara...) to being possible victims by the dark lord of the domain. Like this the monster can trying lots of people but the land isn´t too uninhabited. Other way is people who died in Ravenloft became a special variety of petitioners. Usual humanoids who having a new life with new memory. Let´s imagine, a farmer who doesn´t know he was a dread werewolf in his last existence.
Possible spoiler material here for Heroes of Horror:
Show
Their first adventure left some of my players dreaming about "grandmother's house," which was adapted from the greenhag/grey jester encounter in Heroes of Horror (not a bad sourcebook, btw). It wasn't the (well-written) encounter, but the way I presented it as DM on top of the party members' horrified reactions.
But what made it WORSE for a few of my players is that some of the player characters reacted no differently than if it had been a horde of goblins attacking instead of small children under the jester's control. In other words, some of the characters immediately opened fire with lethal force against the Bleak Ones as soon as the first sign of threat showed itself.
The point is that it is the reactions and words of the players that makes or breaks your horror adventure or horror campaign. If you have players who are focused on hack-n-slash D&D (which thankfully, I don't), then it's really hard to pull off the horror. The game system, whether it's 3.5 D&D or 1st Edition AD&D, is irrelevant.
But what made it WORSE for a few of my players is that some of the player characters reacted no differently than if it had been a horde of goblins attacking instead of small children under the jester's control. In other words, some of the characters immediately opened fire with lethal force against the Bleak Ones as soon as the first sign of threat showed itself.
The point is that it is the reactions and words of the players that makes or breaks your horror adventure or horror campaign. If you have players who are focused on hack-n-slash D&D (which thankfully, I don't), then it's really hard to pull off the horror. The game system, whether it's 3.5 D&D or 1st Edition AD&D, is irrelevant.
Azalin, Hazlik, & Nova Vaasa's lord from FR.
Lord Soth from Dragonlance.
Etc.
I doubt any Eberron-style domains would be part of the core realms, but it's possible that we may see a restructuring of the core into two or more continents. After all, they did change things before with the grand conjunction.
With Ravenloft being WotC property, I wonder about the possibility of their new powerhouse setting (Eberron) depositing a few domains in the Demiplane of Dread. Anyone familiar with both Ravenloft knows that a fair part of it's domains and their lords emerged from other D&D settings.
Azalin, Hazlik, & Nova Vaasa's lord from FR.
Lord Soth from Dragonlance.
Etc.
I doubt any Eberron-style domains would be part of the core realms, but it's possible that we may see a restructuring of the core into two or more continents. After all, they did change things before with the grand conjunction.
Don't forget Veca made an appearance from Greyhawk.
I could see some game mechanics from CoC making it into Ravenloft. Sanity check anyone? And a midnight sons like campaign would be pretty nifty if done right, (My Collection was destroyed by a flood) but definetly not Ravenloft.
Don't forget Veca made an appearance from Greyhawk.
I did forget that one, thank you. But what I was wondering is "what's the general opinion of Eberron-style domains appearing in the dread realms".
But what I was wondering is "what's the general opinion of Eberron-style domains appearing in the dread realms".
Well considering that there are Domains from Athas (Dark Sun), it seems the Mists/Dark Powers can reach into any cosmology/world etc they please.
I also think 4E is going to present a real problem to playing Ravenloft "out of the box". 4E's high-heroic PCs I think will seriously clash with Ravenloft's mood of oppression and threatening doom. Also, I think the "per encounter" system is really going to take the edge of the fear of impending doom out of the campaign world.
Personally, I don't have preferance for WW or WotC doing the product, as long at its as good (or better) than 2E's Domain of Dread hardcover book.
as long at its as good (or better) than 2E's Domain of Dread hardcover book.
I think the original 2nd Ed boxed set blows it out of the water.
I do agree, though, that 4th Ed might not be the best system to capture Ravenloft. Actually that brings up an interesting point, well, I think so; that different editions of D&D might serve different campaign settings better.
Well considering that there are Domains from Athas (Dark Sun), it seems the Mists/Dark Powers can reach into any cosmology/world etc they please.
True, but there has been recent emphasis on making the cosmologies separate, so that notion may no longer hold.
True, but there has been recent emphasis on making the cosmologies separate, so that notion may no longer hold.
Probably, considering 3e Ravenloft, this setting would become a setting on its own. Not a "OK, you're walking, you're going to buy some Coke and bang! Ravenloft, my friend!"
"OK, you're walking, you're going to buy some Coke and bang! Ravenloft, my friend!"
I guess I will have to be more careful when I buy a Coke next time!
The problem is that even back in 2nd edition the setting bucked the rules constantly. We'll have to see what happens with 4th ed, but mixing horror and action is almost impossible. One is about empowering you, the other about rendering you powerless.
Publish the Core rules then update once a month with a new domain or two.
There are a number of reasons for this:
1) A large book is only useful to the fans of the setting who want to pay $30-40 for the setting. People who might only use it for a single adventure or two won't want that kind of financial commitment. But with online publication they can just use elements for a Weekend in Hell. It's useful for everyone and hopefully makes new fans.
2) Multiple authors can be used. Some people just 'get' some domains and lands more than others. With a freelance serial format WotC can hire out some lands to experts. For example, giving James Lowder a chance to write Sithicus again. Or contacting ex-Kargat and Kargatane members for preferred domains.
3) It gets the setting published sooner rather than later. With one setting a year, Ravenloft would have to wait 3-4 years to see reprinting. Online allows it to be done much sooner.
4) New domains and lands can be added/updated to reflect new novels, new adventures, new short stories and the like. Plus, the release of domains could be tied to real world events, such as releasing something like Mordent when a new ghost movie is in theaters and such.
I think Ravenloft would work best as an online publication on the WotC site. It comes free with a D&DI/Dragon subscription.
Publish the Core rules then update once a month with a new domain or two.
There are a number of reasons for this:
1) A large book is only useful to the fans of the setting who want to pay $30-40 for the setting. People who might only use it for a single adventure or two won't want that kind of financial commitment. But with online publication they can just use elements for a Weekend in Hell. It's useful for everyone and hopefully makes new fans.
2) Multiple authors can be used. Some people just 'get' some domains and lands more than others. With a freelance serial format WotC can hire out some lands to experts. For example, giving James Lowder a chance to write Sithicus again. Or contacting ex-Kargat and Kargatane members for preferred domains.
3) It gets the setting published sooner rather than later. With one setting a year, Ravenloft would have to wait 3-4 years to see reprinting. Online allows it to be done much sooner.
4) New domains and lands can be added/updated to reflect new novels, new adventures, new short stories and the like. Plus, the release of domains could be tied to real world events, such as releasing something like Mordent when a new ghost movie is in theaters and such.
Actually, that's a very good point... the only problem is: there's no income
Personally, I don't think that Wizards should make everything just thinking about income; but Ravenloft has some dedicated fans and they will keep using 2e/3e anyway, so that's a pretty good alternative to keep the setting alive.
Actually, that's a very good point... the only problem is: there's no income
Personally, I don't think that Wizards should make everything just thinking about income; but Ravenloft has some dedicated fans and they will keep using 2e/3e anyway, so that's a pretty good alternative to keep the setting alive.
Sure there is. The same income as Dragon and Dungeon. You just tie it to D&D Insider and the subscription service and make the campaign setting free to anyone who wants to pay $10/month.
A full domain description isn't really any lengthier than the typical Dragon article. And it becomes a regular feature and easy way to pad the magazine. And later on, when a few dozen domains have been published, WotC can take the full product and reprint it as a separate booking owning all the rights making money for it twice. :D
but mixing horror and action is almost impossible.
I don´t agreed. we have videogames like Castlevania saga, Doom 3 or Painkiller- Battle out of hell, Evil Dead: Hail to the King (and Evil Dead: Regenation), Resident Evil, Buffy vampire slayers.
The secret is PCs have to feel theirself enough vulnerable.
I don´t agreed. we have videogames like Castlevania saga
About as scarey as Final Fantasy but with more fun.
Doom 3
Yeah, because that was utterly terrifying and not just "Open door, monster in face. Rinse, repeat."
Painkiller- Battle out of hell
Are you serious? One even vaguely interesting moment. Any game where you can mow down literally 350 enemies a level without even starting to worry about ammunition is just silly.
Evil Dead: Hail to the King (and Evil Dead: Regenation),
Never played them, they *could* be scarey but I doubt it given their company.
Resident Evil
The only thing scarey about these games was having to open a door. I hate that loading annimation, gods do I hate it.
Buffy vampire slayers.
Erm.... you know Buffy was a joke right? Meant to be funny and all that?
The secret is PCs have to feel theirself enough vulnerable.
But we don't. Ever. Hence the problem.
In general, I do agree that less powerful heroes make it easier to run horror; however, I don't see 4E D&D as being in opposition to a horror game. In my mind, as a DM, having per encounter or at will powers simply means that I don't have to give the PCs time to rest as I drag them from one scene to the next. Horror, in my opinion, was never generated by a PC's resources running out-- it has to be reflected in the way you tell your story and the way you describe encounters. Thus, I don't think that renewable resources will take away from the horror effect.
Erm.... you know Buffy was a joke right? Meant to be funny and all that?
I'd hardly say Buffy was a joke. The series definitely had its comedic moments, but it also had its creepy moments as well. Ever see the episode "Hush"? Definitely more of a horror feel than any slasher flick.
Technically, I'd classify Buffy as Dark Fantasy, where even though the protagonists are fighting horrific creatures, they still win in the end.
Sometime the problem was the players get tired because the background was too ...oppresive. PCs killed a lot of monsters (undeads specially), but the dark lord always remained, looking news innocent victims. Where was the hope? The evil only could be slow down, stopped, but not eliminated. Never a happy end there was going to being. And the most of character had very tragic stories, with a bit of fatalism. Always they did the wrong elections. Having the highest weapong, magic item and armour isn´t enough to saving people from the monsters. The evil attacked and after disappeared, leaving a blood river or some corpses. The menace always was present.
* Anybody has seen the videogames The OneeChanbara, Silent Hill, and The Suffering? (too gore, isn´t it?)
The evil only could be slow down, stopped, but not eliminated.
There was a 2nd Ed Ravenloft module (the one in Sri-Raji) where the adventure culminated in the defeat of the domain lord (a Rakshasa) and the dispersal of the domain (Sri-Raji).
Ravenloft is often seen as the "world of evil" by many gamers. But if I were to bring Ravenloft to 4e I would remove that notion and instead present Ravenloft as the world of Fear, in its many manifestations. I would present an angle to the Dark Powers, unknowable as they are, as perhaps "collectors" of the multiverse's fears, thus bringing forth Ravenloft. To negotiate a compromise between the hardline Ravenloft fans and the new fans who thin Ravenloft is too dark, I would remove the concept of Ravenloft as a "prison plane" but still keep its isolated and unreachable nature in the Shadowfell. I would remove the current restrictions on magic (such as on divination), and instead put in certain dangers and "dramatic failures" if for example a spell doesn't work properly or fizzles.
Jester has made good points about how Ravenloft could be presented in 4e, especially how domain lords could now travel across domain borders with severely diminished powers (maybe an effect of the seeming disappearance of the ethereal plane). Finding Strahd in Egertus doesn't seem like a bad idea, but here for example he needs the earth of Barovia to survive or to only drink the blood of a Barovian even quench his thirst. This would actually spawn interesting interactions between the politics of the domains themselves.
Perhaps the default alignment would be "unaligned" or "no alignment" for ALL player characters (even paladins and yes the domain lords themselves).
One maxim to the success of viable D&D worlds is "If it works in D&D, then it works in _________." This of course is unacceptable to hardcore fundamentalist Ravenloft fans, so I propose an alternative: Ravenloft in 4e could maybe be the mature D&D setting, catering to mature gamers (in the tradition of Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds). Its focus would be on mature themes, giving for example Hazlik the room he needs to feel open about his sexuality. Making Ravenloft a mature setting would of course require a reconfiguration in mood, allowing for example in-game mature language and situations to be played, perhaps even mature art (not adult art, mind you there's a difference) to be created for it.
I'd hardly say Buffy was a joke. The series definitely had its comedic moments, but it also had its creepy moments as well. Ever see the episode "Hush"? Definitely more of a horror feel than any slasher flick.
Technically, I'd classify Buffy as Dark Fantasy, where even though the protagonists are fighting horrific creatures, they still win in the end.
I'd really just call it dark comedy. There was far too much comic relief for it to be taken seriously and any attempt at depth resulted in bathos.
Where was the hope? The evil only could be slow down, stopped, but not eliminated. Never a happy end there was going to being.
Congratulations, you've arrived at the definition of "Gothic Horror." Your Ravenloft game was a success.
Remember people, attacking a vampire layer during the dead of night is a very bad idea. I'd know... I was the idiot that tried (but managed to survive! Yippie :D ). Unfortunately, my comrades did not fair as well as I
Anyhoo, the one type of game you really can't play very well in Ravenloft is a "Buffy-esque" horror game. The setting just doesn't have a good place to do that from. Even Mordent, with the Mayweather Twins and all that good stuff, is still far more gothic horror than anything else. A Buffy style game is practically the opposite of a gothic horror game because there is always hope for success, while a gothic horror setting is something akin to a survival horror game (your just trying to get out alive).
(I always saw that as the Dark Powers letting Vecna escape. They've been manipulating him for millenia, hissing secrets into his mind as the Serpent.)
What have I missed? What is the current status of Ravenloft and the Dark Lords?
I'd especially like to know the status of the Gentleman Caller - one of my favourite NPCs. Did White Wolf ever use him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbbqMoEwDqc
it shows around. 3:33.
I don't know if this means ravenloft is a definite, but it can't be a bad thing.
I can't confirm if it was indeed the Gentleman Caller who seduced Gabrielle Adherre, but from the sound of things I believe that was him.
As for the rest of the darklords, a lot of them have grown stronger. Lord Soth is no longer the darklord of Sithicus, as he was consumed by screaming shadows in the hour of darkness (I believe his curse was stronger than the mists and pulled him back to Krynn). His underling, a dwarf of some sort, has taken the mantle of darklord for that particular realm. He's a cruel little bastard, that's for sure.
Oh, and Count Strahd is much stronger than he was in 2nd Edition.
Actually, I think its nearly impossible for me to sum up all the things that have happened in the dread realms since it went to White Wolf, but I can tell you the setting was given to good hands, because it sure still feels like Ravenloft.
As for the Gentleman Caller, there has always been speculation about him in the White Wolf publications that he spawned not just Malocchio but four other children, scattered throughout the land.
i don't know if this is a repost, but if you watch the 4th edition teaser trailer you can see "Ravenloft" in optional campaign settings.
That doesn't mean it's being re-released, only that the online gaming engine lets you write in the campaign-setting name(s) of your choice. One of the listed names is clearly a homebrew setting, in fact.
What is Azalin's current status? He was my favorite official Ravenloft darklord.
Good ol' Azalin is still the Darklord of Darkon. He simply merged with the land itself for a while.
But I´m afraid the dromites (Psionic handbook), warforged, dracoborn and tiefling aren´t very welcomed.
Good ol' Azalin is still the Darklord of Darkon. He simply merged with the land itself for a while.
Thanks - I hope he would 'unmerge'...
Actually, I know for a fact he is unmerged since I have the 3rd edition Ravenloft books :D
There was a 2nd Ed Ravenloft module (the one in Sri-Raji) where the adventure culminated in the defeat of the domain lord (a Rakshasa) and the dispersal of the domain (Sri-Raji).
the region of the Valchanian and its were-panther + vampire lord Urik Von Kharkov had a very similar scenerio in Dragon Magazine.
the region of the Valchanian and its were-panther + vampire lord Urik Von Kharkov had a very similar scenerio in Dragon Magazine.
That "let's kill the DL and run" was used many times in 2e Ravenloft. One of the best thing the 3e writers did was to get away from it, turning more to a "let's defeat the darklord's plan" instead, among other things.
On Ravenloft coming back, that's a possibility indeed, we'll see. But in order not to alienate the current RL fans, they can't erase everything and start again as some suggested here.
Another beauty of 3e was the expansion of each domain (the Gazetteers) and of each darklord's current scheme (as darklord's motivations get more complex, much more possibilities of interaction with the players).
Joël
With Ravenloft being WotC property, I wonder about the possibility of their new powerhouse setting (Eberron) depositing a few domains in the Demiplane of Dread. Anyone familiar with both Ravenloft knows that a fair part of it's domains and their lords emerged from other D&D settings.
Azalin, Hazlik, & Nova Vaasa's lord from FR.
Lord Soth from Dragonlance.
Etc.
I doubt any Eberron-style domains would be part of the core realms, but it's possible that we may see a restructuring of the core into two or more continents. After all, they did change things before with the grand conjunction.
Actually, I managed to make a weekend in Ravenloft in my late Eberron Campaign. The player's got abducted by the mists and ended up in a domain that turned out to be the lost city of Cire. In my campaign, the head of the house Cannith got mad and took the experiments with the living contructs beyond even the laxy morals of Khorvarian society. The place was filled with half man/half machine hybrids and it was a "not so different" moment between the Silver Flame anti-warforged-rights Paladin and the flesh-hater Warfoged Monk characters. Fun times
They got out, eventually, the usual 2E way
With that said I'd love to see this campaign resurrected more so for all the people who haven't experienced it than for myself.
After reading about the new Feywild I can totally see a perfect connection to the fey in Ravenloft. Looking in the Shadowfell section I found myself thinking "WOW did they plan this for Ravenloft?"
Personally I could totally see them surprise announcing a Ravenloft setting book to be released. All the foundation work looks like its going to be right in 4th!
That doesn't mean it's being re-released, only that the online gaming engine lets you write in the campaign-setting name(s) of your choice. One of the listed names is clearly a homebrew setting, in fact.
It might be a new campaign setting and not a homebrew, in fact.
It's bugged me that with every edition of the setting (Revised boxed set, Domains of Dread hardcover, 3rd edition), the Core has steadily shrunk in size. Entire domains have either split off or dissolved entirely without being replaced, and the Core has steadily shrunk in size.
With a new edition, I'd like to see the Core at least double in size, with new domains added and old ones returned. The Core should be growing, not shrinking.
It might be a new campaign setting and not a homebrew, in fact.
I seriously doubt WotC would jump the gun so far as to name a new setting they couldn't possibly get around to publishing for three years or more. Remember, they've already said they'll be updating FR and Eberron first, at a rate of one game-setting per year.
The new "Ravenloft: Dominion" novels aren't out yet, and the original releases of the Ravenloft novels (including the re-issued titles) have been OOP for years.
Probably, you'd have your best chance ordering the re-issues online.
1. Strahd is a warlock...not a necromancer..remember the famous first lines of the Tome of Strahd? "I am the ancient..I am the land. In Races and classes..it says that warlock make pacts for their power...Strahd unique abilities to control things in his realm fits that. Perhaps every generation of the von Zarovich line as one who is able to do that...they all made a pact with the nature spirits of the land..except strahd betrayed that pact in his bargin with "Death".
2. I was thinking of making "Death" Orcus..one of my favorite demon lords..of course Strhad doesn't know it is Orcus..and would not care if he did. Which of course brings us to another question..why did Orcus do it? Perhaps it is part of his quest to discover the Raven Queen's true name...? After all it is called RAVENLOFT and one of the most powerful items of the RL cannon is the Holy symbol of Ravenkind.... Is it leaked to her?
3. The Vistani are Haflings...who live in the swapms and marshes of Barovia. Dwarves live in the mountains surrounding the valley and trade with the humans. A few elves still live in the dark woods.Eladrins have a few strongholds as well. Both are feared by most humans but are not killed on site. Dragonborn and tieflings are rare...viewed as monsters by the xenopobic Barovians but a few exist in isloacted places were they are accepted.
Just a few things I was kicking around.
1. Strahd is a warlock...not a necromancer..
Azalin taught him necromancy spells, not eldrich blast...........If you forget about that fact though, it does make a little sense.
I was thinking about making Strahd and his little realm central to my first 4e campaign. I am going to change the story abit to surprise players..tell me what you think.
1. Strahd is a warlock...not a necromancer..remember the famous first lines of the Tome of Strahd? "I am the ancient..I am the land. In Races and classes..it says that warlock make pacts for their power...Strahd unique abilities to control things in his realm fits that. Perhaps every generation of the von Zarovich line as one who is able to do that...they all made a pact with the nature spirits of the land..except strahd betrayed that pact in his bargin with "Death".
Um I find that interesting considering the fact that Strahd was around well before 3E, or the warlock class. In addition all dark lords in Ravenloft have "control" over their lands, so Strahd is not unique in this. All the lands in Ravenloft were also prisons for their Dark Lords.
For Strahd to be a 'lock, he has to choose to make the "deal with the devil", he didn't choose his fate. It was chosen for him when he became obsessive and let greed over take reason. He did what he did out of love but didn't stop to consider how it hurt others, but then again so did Dr. Frankenstein, and we all know how that turned out. It is the age-old story of knowing when to say when.
Just my .02,
For Strahd to be a 'lock, he has to choose to make the "deal with the devil", he didn't choose his fate. It was chosen for him when he became obsessive and let greed over take reason.
I think that he did chose his fate, in that he made a pact because of his obsession. That was always a component of Ravenloft-- all of those tragic villians were victims of their own design. Nothing was ever forced upon them.
As far as being a warlock, I think it's fine-- after all Strahd is a character, not merely a class. Warlock would be an interesting way to create him in 4E.
I think that he did chose his fate, in that he made a pact because of his obsession. That was always a component of Ravenloft-- all of those tragic villians were victims of their own design. Nothing was ever forced upon them.
As far as being a warlock, I think it's fine-- after all Strahd is a character, not merely a class. Warlock would be an interesting way to create him in 4E.
What I found odd was the fact that text written years before the class was even a pipe dream was used to validate the conclusion. That is like taking passages from the Bible to show that Jesus was an auto mechanic. Just found it odd!
It has been years since I read the book (when it first came out), but I seem to recall Strahd being a warrior who took up magic in an attempt to bring his lost love back.
The warlock actually chooses to make the pact and who they make their pact with. The warlock accepts the pros and cons of their decision, and accepts the risks. They believe they can either outsmart the power giver, or don't care about the end results. They want a "play now, pay later" type deal. Strahd did not blatantly do any of that, the inadvertent choice he made was to become obsessed with bringing his dead woman back and The Land corrupted that choice. He wouldn't listen to reason, and thus became corrupted, much like Anakin Skywalker.
If the above is what makes a warlock to you, then Lord Soth, Venca, and all dark lords have to be thought of the same way as each were corrupted by a corrupted land. Regardless of the fact that one is a death knight, one is a mage/lich etc... Part of the horror of the setting was the string-pulling of ones emotions towards the dark lords and how what happened to them could happen to anyone including the PCs.
Now with how often they (WotC) changes histories and back stories, and how Ravenloft is a dynamic setting I wouldn't see a problem with Strahd becoming a lock for a new setting. It does fit the background better, however, it is hard to feel sorry for a 'lock as they made the decision, which takes away the imprisonment, and the lands ability to corrupt it to the extent that it did.
Actually, I'm a bit confused as to how one would make a pact with something as ambiguous as the dark powers. Its more like they choose you rather than you choose it. I guess there are some minor ways around that, but otherwise I really doubt there are many warlocks with the dark powers as their pact holder.
I was going to say something about this too, but figured the post was getting too long winded. I don't know anything about the Sword and Sorcery 3rd E Ravenloft, but I do know in 2E that if a deed was vile enough it was as if a rift to Ravenloft opened and sucked the person in, sometimes his whole land, sometimes the land was given to them when they got there.
I thought about making Orcus "Death" or one of the "Dark Powers" simply because he is one of my favorite baddies and I want to include him (heard he is in the 4e Monster Manual...WOOO--HOOO!!) As for making Strahd warlock, that is just an idea. Based on his description..he really needs to be multi classed...a fighter (being he was a general at one point) and some type of spellcaster.
Since we are talking RL...thinking about it...several of the other domains would be great to drop into a regular campaign setting...maybe for one shot "cursed realms" or mini-campiagns. Take Verbrek for example..it is a basic POL setting..a few isolated farms in a dark wood with werewovles running around. Just about all the domains could be placed into a regular 4e campiagn..granted..it would take some doing considering the direction 4e takes the game but it can be done.
P.S I liked the idea some suggested about placing RL in the Shadowfell.
Been reading the replies I after I posted the first time and they are interesting. However, some seem to be hung up on the idea of a world of Ravenloft. Remember, in 1e the Ravenloft module was set in more or less the "regular" fanasty world and Strahd still had his unique powers and characters could still be trapped there.. It was not until 2e that the Demi-palne of Dread was born with others trapped by the dark powers as a seperate campiagn setting. I guess what I was trying to say that I was going to go back to the 1e idea...Barovia as a isolated, cursed realm, not part of a group of such realms (although the RL campaign setting is still one of my favorites.)
I thought about making Orcus "Death" or one of the "Dark Powers" simply because he is one of my favorite baddies and I want to include him (heard he is in the 4e Monster Manual...WOOO--HOOO!!) As for making Strahd warlock, that is just an idea. Based on his description..he really needs to be multi classed...a fighter (being he was a general at one point) and some type of spellcaster.
Since we are talking RL...thinking about it...several of the other domains would be great to drop into a regular campaign setting...maybe for one shot "cursed realms" or mini-campiagns. Take Verbrek for example..it is a basic POL setting..a few isolated farms in a dark wood with werewovles running around. Just about all the domains could be placed into a regular 4e campiagn..granted..it would take some doing considering the direction 4e takes the game but it can be done.
P.S I liked the idea some suggested about placing RL in the Shadowfell.
Personally I think that would be a monumental step backwards for Ravenloft. 3e is when the setting finally truly found its feet, when Ravenloft finally became its own setting and not just some adjunct where outlanders were continually trying to escape. To blow the setting to the four winds just because of the whole POL concept is rather shortsighted in my opinion.
Heck I don't like the ideas of what they have in store for the Forgotten Realms, and honestly I don't care for the Realms that much. And if I am actually annoyed about a setting that I only mildly interested in, it would be far worse for one that I am incredibly invested in like Ravenloft.
Point being is that if I had my wishes granted Ravenloft would look fairly similar to what it looked like in 3e fleshing out stuff that we haven't gotten to yet and tweaking those things that just plain don't work Mechanics wise...
So in 4E terms, Strahd is a Warlord who multiclassed a bit into Wizard and then heavily into Necromancer. I know retraining rules are in the game, but who knows just how much you can retrain. Odds are, though, that Strahd at the least retrained as much as he could to give him as many Wizard abilities as possible, then when he met Azalin, he retrained all of that into gaining abilities as a Necromancer (Necromancers will be a separate class in 4E. Just not right away). And if it's possible to retrain your base class entirely, then that's likely what Strahd did. Switching out his Warlord class levels for Wizard class levels, then for Necromancer class levels. But at the very least, he's a Warlord who's multiclassed heavily into the Necromancer class, whatever that means in 4E terms.
As for the Shadowfell, I disagree. The Shadowfell is supposed to be a reflection of 'the world'. Ravenloft, however, isn't a reflection of any world. It's its own entity. A couple of the domains are copies of areas from other worlds, but they're not reflections of those worlds like the Shadowfell. You don't have people crossing over back and forth between them. And the Mists draw people in from all over. A native of Krynn is just as likely to be drawn into Hazlan as Sithicus, for instance. Besides, Ravenloft should have its own Feywild and Shadowfell reflection.
Nah, they should keep the idea of Demiplanes, except place them in the Astral Sea. Demiplanes are sometimes manufactured to resemble material worlds, so one can easily imagine that they would have their own Shadowfell and Feywild reflections (Hmm. Maybe make the Shadow Rift a horrid mishmash of both the Feywild and the Shadowfell?). Ravenloft in the Astral Sea would work out fine. But in the Shadowfell? Nah. The properties of the Shadowfell just don't suit the nature of Ravenloft at all.
I would focus on the motives of the dark powers themselves. Ever wonder why they pick corruptable beings but let the curse they put on them make them stronger and stronger as time goes on? Simple they are afraid of something. They have seen that they could not win a war with a new power that is set to invade the demi-plane they call home.
You can't fight a war without generals. I would make the dark lords of the land the generals (some unwillingly, some uknowingly, and most of them with no other choice).
The demi-plane gets invaded, but the invaders did not count on all the new powerful Lords tied to the lands themselves. You as a player character could choose to work with the lords to fight the universal threat. You could ally with the new forces to overthrow the existing evils. It's up to you. This would make it acceptable to play regualr pc's (just trying to do good and help the people amidist the tides of evil), or play as classic monster races fighting in service of your dark lord to defend your home (and food, Why share the humans with other beings?).
Sorry about the typefest ......the idea just kept rolling along.........as for who or what the "invaders" are of the demi-plane I'm undecided. Maybe haveing them be Lovcraft type beings isn't a bad idea. The last Ravenloft adventure I played was called "The Shadow Rift" or some such.......It was scary and cool.
I think focusing on just "scary" or just "cool" is a mistake. There is no reason Raveloft can't be both.
Styphathal
Besides, alien invasions? Teaming up with Darklords to wage an epic, all-consuming battle? That's not really what Ravenloft is all about.
Anyway, on the subject of writing up NPC's, it occurs to me that I've been stuck in a 3E frame of mind when it comes to statting up NPC's. After reading some posts by Chris Sims on the subject, it appears that you can give your NPC's pretty much any ability that you feel is appropriate. You can build them according to PC rules, but you don't have to. So when building Strahd, all I gotta do is make him a Vampire and give him any abilities I feel are appropriate (Whether they're Necromantic, Warlord, or otherwise). Can't wait to see what the specific rules are, as they sound wonderfully open-ended and non-restrictive. So come 4E, I'll probably write up Strahd as a Level 20 Solo Controller (At least. May go Epic with him, depending on what the Epic rules in 4E look like, and if they're at all suitable with Ravenloft).
* As mentioned, the free form of NPC design is just delicious for Ravenloft. Some stats, all the powers I feel are necessary, ritual casting for some wicked off-combat magic and stop worrying about feeling dirty about unnecesary munchkinry in the Land of Dread.
* I plan to use a variant healing system proposed in another thread (don't have the link at hand and feel to lazy to look for it) that comes down to this: Short rest: You can use ONE healing surge. Extended rest/Sleep: You can use as many healing surges as you want but will only regain ONE. The end result is that full recovery will take much (much) longer, players will be more worried about unecessary combat but if it happens the will have most of their resources available. Seems fine to me in paper.
Well, now about the dream. I dreamt that I was coming up with ideas about Ravenloft at the same as living a Ravenloft adventure. Since my crazy shaneningans are hardly interesting i'll boil down the ideas about the game:
* Please, not a Infinite Civil Ravenloft War of the Astral Gems crossover event. I might be happy with a little retcon but another apocalypse migth stretch thing too much, speacially for the new players (and we want some of those)
* Ravenloft somewhere in deep end of the astral sea
* Making Ravenloft travel a little (just a little) less difficult: Making the clusters be like continents with a lot of danger in the misty oceans. Artahus was rigth on track but I still found very hard to make a convincing Paridonese Society of Supernatural Investigators and getting them involved in foreign affairs. Instead of 30% safe to travel make it 60%. Dangerous but with a lot of potential for lucrative bussiness
* Corollary to the former: Foreign affairs are fun and apropiate to the time the game tries to emulate: Ease of travel can help develop those storylines: "Paridonese weaponry on Rokushima Taiyoo!"
* All the playable races have some power that bothers the dark lords in some peculiar way: I imagined the halflings having the ability to cross closed borders, elves beign inmune to a Dark Lord scrying, humans having an Arcane Fate that blocks the Fatebending ability of the Darklords, etc.
* The Darklords having said abilities: I imagined all the darklords having dome form of concious or inconcius scrying ability: They're the land and they can sense the wereabouts of a particular person; some are very good (Azalin) some will suck big time (Adam). I also imagined all of them having some form of Fatebinding; they being one with the land in a more mystical way, the can subtly shape the destiny around someone: In the bigger scale it just means nice DM Fiat, in the gritty combat it means it can force a reroll, once per encounter.
* Fleshing out the domains (the gazeteer were great at this department) in order to allow adventures in all the tiers. Heroic Tiers: Small Time Heroing, the Darklords are hardly going to notice you unless you happen to be a pally in wich case you should be moving and not reading this; Paragon tier: Big Time Heroics, Dark Lords as the main patrons/antagonists, some adventures might be on the wierd and wild side of magics (possesions, planar visitors, devils, the shadow rift), the Dark Powers might become interested in the characters; Epic Tier: Full blown Heroic Horror Weirdness: Dark Powers REALLY intersted in characters, playing with the very fabric of magic and the plane, foiling attempts at escape/godhood of the bad guys, Devil Intrige, Trips to the hearth of the Ravenloft Shadowlands and Feywild.
Well, just some ideas and lets hope the dark flame of Ravenloft keeps living in our cold dead hearts
I plan to use a variant healing system proposed in another thread (don't have the link at hand and feel to lazy to look for it) that comes down to this: Short rest: You can use ONE healing surge. Extended rest/Sleep: You can use as many healing surges as you want but will only regain ONE. The end result is that full recovery will take much (much) longer, players will be more worried about unecessary combat but if it happens the will have most of their resources available. Seems fine to me in paper.
Can you link it when you find it, my play group is still using 2E because 3.X was "too easy" for us. We were hoping to move to 4E but the DM noticed the healing thing and about crapped himself. If I can show him an alternative set of rules for it I may be able to persuade him to give it another shot.
I liked all your ideas but this one in particular struck me as a bottle of AWESOME.
* All the playable races have some power that bothers the dark lords in some peculiar way: I imagined the halflings having the ability to cross closed borders, elves beign inmune to a Dark Lord scrying, humans having an Arcane Fate that blocks the Fatebending ability of the Darklords, etc.
I do have some questions though as to the mechanics of this. What about demi-human societies, the ones indigenous to the Dread Realms? What prevented the Dark Lord from killing them all off in a fit of jealously over their
power", or as a show of his/her dark lord power?
In the case of elves, what about paladins? The elves are "immune to scrying", but paladins are like a blinking light in the night to it? Which trumps the other in the case of an elf-paladin?
What about the new core races of t-lings and Dragonborn, they are pretty monstrous and devil looking, how are societies in the Dread Planes going to react to them? If it is too harshly it will unbalance the party pretty quickly, but if it's too soft you do a disservice to Ravenloft flavor.
What about the new core races of t-lings and Dragonborn, they are pretty monstrous and devil looking, how are societies in the Dread Planes going to react to them? If it is too harshly it will unbalance the party pretty quickly, but if it's too soft you do a disservice to Ravenloft flavor.
Well, one of them can easily be remade as Caliban. That's how 3E Ravenloft solved the Half-Orc issue. No Orcs in Ravenloft, so you can't have Half-Orcs. So they took the Half-Orc stats and said they were Caliban, instead. So you could probably do the same with either the Tieflings or the Dragonborn (Or hell, why not both?). Say that, mechanically, they're the same. But Caliban actually look far different. Here's a bit from their 3E entry.
Thankfully rare, Calibans are twisted humans exposed to curses or foul magic while still in the womb. The birth of a caliban in a community is often seen as a sure sign of the presence of witchcraft — specifically, the corrupting aura of a hag.
Calibans are physically powerful but misshapen humanoids. No two Calibans look alike, but common deformities include twisted backs or limbs, asymmetrical features, bristly skin, or tusklike teeth. Calibans are widely considered brutish, savage creatures; their name is a corruption of "cannibal," stemming from their most infamous reputed habit. In truth, many Calibans are simple-minded, petty brutes, but this is often the product of their upbringing. Rejected as monsters, most calibans spend their lives hidden in dank cellars or flee civilization to roam the wilds. In truth, a Caliban's heart can be as pure and noble as that of any human.
Use the racial characteristics of the Player's Handbook half-orc when creating a caliban player character.
Some of that text would have to be rewritten (It was written with the Half-Orc and his +2 Str, -2 Int and -2 Cha penalty in mind. Both the Tiefling and the Dragonborn, however, have +2 Cha, while Tieflings also have +2 Int), but altogether, it'd be fairly easy to hand wave either the Tiefling or the Dragonborn, if not both, away as Calibans.
And of course, one could simply say that they don't exist in Ravenloft. Personally, I'd be fine with any Ravenloft Player's Guide saying something along the lines of "Dragonborn aren't a player race in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting". Although Dragonborn in Sithicus might be kind of neat. And of course, Tieflings would probably exist (Not in any amount of numbers, but they do exist) thanks to the Fiends running about in Ravenloft (At least three Devils that I know of who can sire them or have a hand in their creation. The Black Duke, Elsepeth, and The Gentleman Caller. Although in the latter case, his children are far above and beyond your average Tiefling).
Well, one of them can easily be remade as Caliban. That's how 3E Ravenloft solved the Half-Orc issue. No Orcs in Ravenloft, so you can't have Half-Orcs. So they took the Half-Orc stats and said they were Caliban, instead. So you could probably do the same with either the Tieflings or the Dragonborn (Or hell, why not both?). Say that, mechanically, they're the same. But Caliban actually look far different. Here's a bit from their 3E entry.
Some of that text would have to be rewritten (It was written with the Half-Orc and his +2 Str, -2 Int and -2 Cha penalty in mind. Both the Tiefling and the Dragonborn, however, have +2 Cha, while Tieflings also have +2 Int), but altogether, it'd be fairly easy to hand wave either the Tiefling or the Dragonborn, if not both, away as Calibans.
And of course, one could simply say that they don't exist in Ravenloft. Personally, I'd be fine with any Ravenloft Player's Guide saying something along the lines of "Dragonborn aren't a player race in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting". Although Dragonborn in Sithicus might be kind of neat. And of course, Tieflings would probably exist (Not in any amount of numbers, but they do exist) thanks to the Fiends running about in Ravenloft (At least three Devils that I know of who can sire them or have a hand in their creation. The Black Duke, Elsepeth, and The Gentleman Caller. Although in the latter case, his children are far above and beyond your average Tiefling).
You have some good knowledge here. I never read much of the 3E setting but isn't it a self-contained setting? I was referring to the other poster who stated going back to the 2E idea of being able to accidentally access that Demi-plane by entering a mist. That would be bringing the players from other realms to Ravenloft, and then D-born players would still be D-born players.
Unless you are suggesting that by entering Ravenloft, the D-born player is morphed into another race. That would confuse the hell out of me.
You have some good knowledge here. I never read much of the 3E setting but isn't it a self-contained setting?
It didn't really change all that much from 2E Ravenloft. People could still be plucked from other worlds by the Mists and deposited in Ravenloft. The focus, though, was on native characters, rather than "Weekend In Hell" types of parties trying to get out. Putting the emphasis on making it its own setting, rather then being dependent on some other setting.
I was referring to the other poster who stated going back to the 2E idea of being able to accidentally access that Demi-plane by entering a mist. That would be bringing the players from other realms to Ravenloft, and then D-born players would still be D-born players.
Good point. That's certainly one way of having Dragonborn, without shoehorning them into the Ravenloft setting.
Unless you are suggesting that by entering Ravenloft, the D-born player is morphed into another race. That would confuse the hell out of me.
Nah, that's not what I meant. I was referring to native characters. There are no Orcs native to Ravenloft, therefore you couldn't have native Half-Orcs, which is why they were rewritten as Caliban. You could, however, still have outlander Half-Orc characters brought into Ravenloft from some other world.
Can you link it when you find it, my play group is still using 2E because 3.X was "too easy" for us. We were hoping to move to 4E but the DM noticed the healing thing and about crapped himself. If I can show him an alternative set of rules for it I may be able to persuade him to give it another shot.
I liked all your ideas but this one in particular struck me as a bottle of AWESOME.
I do have some questions though as to the mechanics of this. What about demi-human societies, the ones indigenous to the Dread Realms? What prevented the Dark Lord from killing them all off in a fit of jealously over their
power", or as a show of his/her dark lord power?
In the case of elves, what about paladins? The elves are "immune to scrying", but paladins are like a blinking light in the night to it? Which trumps the other in the case of an elf-paladin?
What about the new core races of t-lings and Dragonborn, they are pretty monstrous and devil looking, how are societies in the Dread Planes going to react to them? If it is too harshly it will unbalance the party pretty quickly, but if it's too soft you do a disservice to Ravenloft flavor.
I found the thread, apropiately named "Grittification of the Hit Point/Healing system" The fist post is the one i'm talking about:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1003603&
On the other topics, those are very valid questions... I fear not of the elves because that said ability allows them to hide better in the forests of sithicus and darkon. About the darklords envy, that's a very good point and I migth justify some of the goverment sanctioned xenophobia (Vlad Drakov, i'm looking at you). Some other darklords might be blissfully unaware or uber pedantic regarding nonhumans. The proposed halfing ability raises a lot of questions because I picture a lot of Darklords trying to wipe them out, thus, they had to become nomads, maybe striking some deal with the Vistani. This might involve some retcon so I'll have to walk carefully and carry a big gun.
Elven paladins... I'll have to think about it a lot, but i'm thinking about some compromise.
About the new races. We'll have to see more mechanics but i'm pretty sure we can put the tiefling mechanics and the caliban fluff (a bit reworked as the new "demon-children" are more charismatic if I am not mistaken). Dragonborn is a problem. I can see them in some domains but i'd go with "dragonborn are not apropiate as a PC race in Ravenloft but if you want to lay one we recommend the hail from Har Akir, Sithicus, etc."
I'm off to my house, read you later
About the new races. We'll have to see more mechanics but i'm pretty sure we can put the tiefling mechanics and the caliban fluff (a bit reworked as the new "demon-children" are more charismatic if I am not mistaken). Dragonborn is a problem. I can see them in some domains but i'd go with "dragonborn are not apropiate as a PC race in Ravenloft but if you want to lay one we recommend the hail from Har Akir, Sithicus, etc."
Thanks for the link!
As to what you are talking about in the quoted area I think you "read" me wrong. Say I am playing a regular D&D game and I have a player that is a t-ling and another that is a d-born. (I also have other races but they are not as important).
Alot of the Ravenloft setting, in regards to its cultures is the xenophobic atmosphere. They distrust outsiders, and fear things that go bump in the night; and rightly so.
Now when I "import" my players, I still have a d-born and a t-ling to contend with. They both look like monsters, with the t-ling being a living representation of everything the societies of Ravenloft fear. These two races will have it extremely hard compared to the others that can "disguise" themselves as humans and fit in better.
How does one address this? If we follow Ravenloft fluff the T-ling and the D-born would be lynched on sight. If we follow the rule of not picking on a specific character more so then the others then we have to explain why these monster races are semi-accepted.
It isn't as though my players knew they were coming to Ravenloft so I can't punish their race choices because I decided to throw them through a loop-hole.
Now when I "import" my players, I still have a d-born and a t-ling to contend with. They both look like monsters, with the t-ling being a living representation of everything the societies of Ravenloft fear. These two races will have it extremely hard compared to the others that can "disguise" themselves as humans and fit in better.
Mmmm... What I would do, as a Dm, was "importing" them to a slightly less xenophobic domain (Like the Enligthened Ones: Richemulot, Mordent, et al) where they might be shunned, seen as circus freaks (I'm not an animal!! I just belong to a different branch of the Dracolexa species) or be the target of funny remarks but not outright violence towards them. The exact opposite might be a good idea and put them on a very xenphobix domain (Vlad Drakov, i'm looking at you again) where the whole party (even the humans because they're... well, different humans) will feel threatened and subject to mob lynch. For an extended stay the first one will be my personal choice, for a weekend in hell, the latter.
Oh and by the way, Greyhawk, Ravenloft and Dark Sun are definately getting 4e campaigns down the line as well as Planescape and Spelljammer (which they just started working out). They assured us that we can look forward to most of the old campaign setting being remade, and mentioned the above by name.
Should make some happy at least!
You can find the actual thread here.
It may fit Ravenloft.... Isn't the devotion, pushed to a dangerous fanatism, bliding one's moral view, a plot of some dark stories?
THe above quote of Diffinately has been replaces with, Deffinately on the LIST of possible future campaign settings, not Deffinately GETTING a campaign setting.
Huh? You lost me here.
The devs said they are making Ravenloft, Dark Sun, etc... Spelljammer is being considered so that is the maybe!
Paladins are now expended with all the 'champions of alignements' branches, now. A Paladin of Asmoderum was quoted somewhere... Just to say.
It may fit Ravenloft.... Isn't the devotion, pushed to a dangerous fanatism, bliding one's moral view, a plot of some dark stories?
Good idea and use of insight, Geek!
Huh? You lost me here.
The devs said they are making Ravenloft, Dark Sun, etc... Spelljammer is being considered so that is the maybe!
The Full quote from Enworld and the update after:
Forgotten Realms 4e is three books, period, done, end of line: Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Player’s Guide to FR, and DM’s Guide to FR. All settings will be done like that, one per year, until they run out of settings. They mentioned Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, and Spelljammer as settings on their list! Eberron, of course, is the ‘09 setting release (same three books), but it will also get DDI updates starting in June.
WotC's Chris Sims comments here on The Gamer Dome's information:
... the news bite is wrong. The three books are: Campaign Guide (DM), Player's Guide (players, and DM for good measure), and Adventure (everyone). Check the 2008 Wizards D&D Product Release Schedule for FR game product.
And the fact that a setting is "on the list" shouldn't be taken as "Wizards is definitely publishing this setting." It just means the setting is on the list for possible future use.
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Hope this clears up what I meant. Note the last paragraph (or 2 sentences if you like).
Paladins are now expended with all the 'champions of alignements' branches, now. A Paladin of Asmoderum was quoted somewhere... Just to say.
It may fit Ravenloft.... Isn't the devotion, pushed to a dangerous fanatism, bliding one's moral view, a plot of some dark stories?
Elena Faith-hold.
I also like the elimination of alignment detecting spells and abilities. That's something that Ravenloft had to eliminate in every iteration of the game. No more.
How about putting the Realms of Dread in the Astral Sea? The Worlds and Monsters books says the Gods trapped the Devils in the Nine Hells. It would keep the unqiue favor of RL and keep those trapped within. When approaching it in the Astral Sea it appears to be a thick, rolling fog. Perhaps the Dark Powers did the same with Ravenloft....Perhaps the Dark Powers are really just ONE power...Asmodeus. He is after all looking for a way to escape the Hells and take over all of Creation. Could the Dread Realms be one of his many schemes......?? *Cue devilish laughter*
As I said before, the Dark Powers should never, ever, be defined. Asmodeus would certainly be a disappointment. Not to mention that it'd be out-of-character for him. Besides, if he can't get out of the Nine Hells, then how did he get out and make the Demiplane of Dread?
Agreed, though, that Ravenloft should exist in the Astral Sea. It makes sense for it to be an astral dominion. Just one that's hidden in an unknown corner of the Astral Sea, and which is near impossible to get out of once you're inside. And being an imitation of a real world (to a certain degree) one could say that it has its own Shadowfell and Feywild reflection, too.
I will quip that if you go crossover in the future, an Eberron-based Domain could be cool. Corrupted Gotham style city, fallen Silver Flame bishop, a Mournland-style wasteland, Warforged horrors...
Wow, that does sound pretty cool!
Ravenloft was one of the best settings for D&D and with the right love and attention it could be again. It's up to the powers that be to breathe more life into it and not choke it to death. I think even with the change to 4th edition Ravenloft can still work very well if done right. I look forward to Playing 4th edition and making a few side trips into the land of mist.
Ravenloft is about story telling mainly, so it can be played with any sets of mechanics. The 3rd ed adaptation was excellent, mainly because of the fluff, but the flavor mechanics were very good too.
I don't know much about 4th ed (waiting for the books to come out to put my nose into this), and hope it still has the subtelty needed for flavor mechanics.
Joël