Collapse is a bit more interesting in regards to Darksun and he is using examples from Earth where societies have collapsed where enviroment has been a major factor. The Norse Colony in Greenland is one example and towars the end of the colony it would seem they had lost access to most of their Iron due to changes in the weather, enviromental factors on Greenland and the loss of trade routes.
Australia also gets mentioned in both books about a dry, ecologically fragile enviroment where humans come along and screw it up. The conclusion is obvious. Athas= Australia;) Anyway has anyoine else here read eithe rof these 2 books and what do you think?
I will say though that I think that it is very difficult to say with certainty why humans do the things they do and so I tend to be leary(sp?), but intrigued by books that try to do just that.
I found GGS particularly useful because it explained in simple terms some things that really were *not* intuitive, at least to me, relating to how civilizations spread, and what they need in order to progress technologically. Little principles like the fact that crops and domestic animals are necessary to give societies the extra time that they need (time that otherwise would be occupied in the struggle for survival) to develop technologies and culture. Well I guess that much you could learn from playing "Civilization." But this next bit you couldn't: the fact that these critical crops and domestic animals easily migrate along the latitude lines, but not along the longitude. In other words, it's not hard to take your cows, goats, and plant your wheat from the fertile crescent east to China, or west to Egypt, or West to Italy and Spain, but try taking them down into central Africa or Indochina or up into Finland, and that's just not going to work. Although cattle over many generations and many many losses can eventually be selected to live in a different climate.
I've had some fun applying GGS to Athas, mostly on the Dragon Magazine thread. For example, it seems to me that the biggest life-shaped techs would probably have at least as stringent climate applications. A civilization like the Rhulisti, with its dependence on life-shaped techs, particularly on life-shaped VEHICLES, was probably limited to a particular climate band, and my guess is that it was the equatorial region, the tropics and maybe subtropics.
I have heard very mixed things about guns,germs,and steel. Which is why it has been on my to read list for awhile.
GGS is pop-science. It's good enough for freshman sociology classes.
This is not a criticism. It's good. But I would expect many of its points to be voided and/or refined in grad school level sociology classes. It's useful and informative and a good groundwork.
GGS is pop-science. It's good enough for freshman sociology classes.
This is not a criticism. It's good. But I would expect many of its points to be voided and/or refined in grad school level sociology classes.
Agreed with respect to some sociological aspects of GGS, but sociology has little to do with the parts of GGS that I was using in my discussion of Athas. The fact that certain plants and animals don't migrate well across lattitudes isn't an issue of sociology. And if you can rebut Diamond's assertion that cultures with more resources (e.g. cattle & grain) have more opportunity to advance technologically, then please be specific.
It's useful and informative and a good groundwork
The lattitude information seemed pretty hard to contradict ... and IMO provides a pretty good argument that Athasian cultures reliant on life-shaping would have spread east-west rather than North-South.
A civilization like the Rhulisti, with its dependence on life-shaped techs, particularly on life-shaped VEHICLES, was probably limited to a particular climate band, and my guess is that it was the equatorial region, the tropics and maybe subtropics.
The existence of devices like the lifeshaped warmcloak and coolcloak make me consider the possibility that climate may not have been such a barrier. The Rhulisti could easily have lifeshaped such devices to accomodate their vehicles, or even included the necessary components right into their main design for said vehicles. I don't see anything prohibiting them from creating a boat-sized warmcloak for arctic regions, and the ocean temperatures probably didn't get too much warmer than those of Earth, so a boat-sized coolcloak may not have been necessary.
The existence of devices like the lifeshaped warmcloak and coolcloak make me consider the possibility that climate may not have been such a barrier.
Humans also used animals to create coats that helped them adapt to cold, but that doesn't change the fact that most of the plants and animals themselves weren't adaptable.
The Rhulisti could easily have lifeshaped such devices to accomodate their vehicles, or even included the necessary components right into their main design for said vehicles.
I'm not sure that they could have, and I certainly don't see any evidence that they could have done so "easily." I think my inference that the halflings couldn't adapt that easily is supportable by the facts (1) that halflings believed themselves masters of the "world", but that (2) other sentient species existed with little to no contact with the rhulisti.
I don't see anything prohibiting them from creating a boat-sized warmcloak for arctic regions
Aside from the fact that it sounds prohibitively expensive under the item-making principles, a warmcloak adapts you to "cold weather." I don't see anything in the description of a warmcloak guaranteeing the survival of a wearer that's floating in the ocean at freezing temperatures. "Cold weather" is one thing, soaking in one-degree centigrade seawater is quite another.
I'm not saying that rhulisti might not have been able to adapt life shaping to survive in different climates. I'm simply saying that climate poses a limitation and that expansion would have been primarily east-west, as it was on Earth. And if the Rhulisti world government was heavily center-dominated (e.g. if Tyr'agi was like Cuzco in the Inca empire, or like the core-worlds in Firefly) and if the life-shapers tended to congregate near the center, it's possible that they might not have cared so much about the needs of those on the fringe, (again, see Firefly).
I'm not sure that they could have, and I certainly don't see any evidence that they could have done so "easily." I think my inference that the halflings couldn't adapt that easily is supportable by the facts (1) that halflings believed themselves masters of the "world", but that (2) other sentient species existed with little to no contact with the rhulisti.
I disagree with this statement. Please list the sentient races of the Blue Age. In the Thri-Kreen of Athas accessory it states that the thri-kreen of the Blue Age were primitive with no knowledge of tools or building. Not until the Green Age did they gain any type of civilization or technology. If that is your definition it has real world parallels. Humans are masters of the Earth yet Dolphins and Chimpanzees are extremely intelligent. They are still considered "just animals" by most humans. Rhulisti most likely had the same perception of Kreen and whatever else they shared the Blue Age with. That had no bearing on their mastery of Athas. If Rhulisti could farm the bottom of the Oceans for a white rock like substance used for building they could certainly spread over the whole globe. Surface conditions count for very little in the deep Ocean unless the water was literally boiling hot.
On another note, because I can't seem to find the original thread. You were theorizing on land locked seas instead of conventional oceans during the Green Age. In the Mindlords of the Last Sea accessory it mentions this (direct quote):
Things have drastically changed since that time (Green Age). The forests are gone; the fields of grass have turned to rolling dunes of endless sand; and the vast oceans that once separated continents have now been transformed into roiling seas of silt or-at best-dangerous mud flats ready to swallow any foolhardy enough to dare tread across their sunbaked surfaces.
So in my laziness I have championed, in this thread, your excellent work on the world map from long ago.
Agreed with respect to some sociological aspects of GGS, but sociology has little to do with the parts of GGS that I was using in my discussion of Athas.(snipped extra)
Just providing an intro to GGS, and heading off the inevitable criticisms. Nothing aside from that intended. I've seen many a discussion become sidetracked into whether GGS is good or not.
I disagree with this statement. Please list the sentient races of the Blue Age. In the Thri-Kreen of Athas accessory it states that the thri-kreen of the Blue Age were primitive with no knowledge of tools or building. Not until the Green Age did they gain any type of civilization or technology. If that is your definition it has real world parallels. Humans are masters of the Earth yet Dolphins and Chimpanzees are extremely intelligent. They are still considered "just animals" by most humans. Rhulisti most likely had the same perception of Kreen and whatever else they shared the Blue Age with. That had no bearing on their mastery of Athas. If Rhulisti could farm the bottom of the Oceans for a white rock like substance used for building they could certainly spread over the whole globe. Surface conditions count for very little in the deep Ocean unless the water was literally boiling hot.
Actually, one of the strong beliefs (something brought up years ago in the mailing lists and later here on this forum) is that the Nikaal could have been a Blue Age race.
Actually, one of the strong beliefs (something brought up years ago in the mailing lists and later here on this forum) is that the Nikaal could have been a Blue Age race.
That's cool and I don't have an issue with that. However, to say the Halflings were not masters of the environment (at least as far as proliferation of the globe is concerned) because they didn't interact with other intelligent races strikes me as short sighted. Intelligence doesn't necessarily equate to civilization. Look how far the Kreen have come, one could theorize that Blue Age Nikaal were but a shadow of what they have become. The only *known* and documented civilization in the Blue Age were Halflings. One would argue that humans have no meaningful interaction with Dolphins and Chimps on the real world but that doesn't mean they aren't intelligent and Humans haven't mastered their environment. Maybe I'm being picky but I think it is a valid point when taken in the context of global proliferation of Halflings.
That's cool and I don't have an issue with that. However, to say the Halflings were not masters of the environment (at least as far as proliferation of the globe is concerned) because they didn't interact with other intelligent races strikes me as short sighted. Intelligence doesn't necessarily equate to civilization. Look how far the Kreen have come, one could theorize that Blue Age Nikaal were but a shadow of what they have become. The only *known* and documented civilization in the Blue Age were Halflings. One would argue that humans have no meaningful interaction with Dolphins and Chimps on the real world but that doesn't mean they aren't intelligent and Humans haven't mastered their environment. Maybe I'm being picky but I think it is a valid point when taken in the context of global proliferation of Halflings.
I think there is a little specious logic going on in your argument though. Brax's statements have been that sure... the Rhulisti could have developed some kind of lifeshaped/tech/whatever to be able to get to the different latitudes across the globe, but full adaptation of everything needed to survive in colder climates -- as well as for all of the lifeshaped "tech" they had with them? That is a bit of a stretch. Sure, Humans have people living in Antarctica, but we're not exactly colonizing it -- the environment is hostile, people want to live where it isn't always an extreme struggle just to survive (otherwise, the Sahara would be bustling with people all over it!)
There is a significant difference between having the technology to adapt to the environment, and being a "master" of the full environment. The former is what Humanity does in the real world, the latter takes a kind of terraforming, or a complete redesign of physiologies to accomplish -- once again, not necessarily impossible for the Rhulisti, I'd just reason it was impractical. Too much effort for too little gain. It is far more likely (and reasonable, the old Occam's Razor schtick) that the Rhullisti stayed in the tropical/subtropical regions -- it is simply far more functional for life-forms than what is colder. Not to mention, if there were some "necessities" in Rhulisti society, some lifeshaped creatures that simply could not be adapted for colder environments -- which is very possible as well.
I think my inference that the halflings couldn't adapt that easily is supportable by the facts (1) that halflings believed themselves masters of the "world", but that (2) other sentient species existed with little to no contact with the rhulisti.
I also run with the assumption that Athas has always been a "warm" planet. I think that there were no polar ice caps and the world was a pretty hospitable place for the most part. Cooler for sure near the poles and much warmer at the equator but nothing like Earth. Although this would be my Athas, not anyone elses. I am personally not conforming to GGS because of this.
So end of "rant" i guess. I just wanted to present another option.