The final version of FFN may include NPCs and monsters from other future releases related to the Trembling Plains, such as Prison-State of Eldaarich, City-State of Kurn, Flamesky, and Silt Sailors of the Kulag Fleet.
Many persons' gifts enrich this work, and deserve credit, but I'd especially like to highlight Bruno as the project manager who persuaded us put this material out into the wonderfully useful MM4 format, and then personally treated this project like his second job, without vacations. Without Bruno, this project would never have been completed.
Let the discussion commence...
After 1 1/2 years it is finally out!
:D :D :D
-Rob. :D
And even some contribution by me in it!
Yes indeed! I could not be more pleased with Elonarc's work on the Red Guards. My only regret on the Red Guards is that Brian Sanchez dissapeared into thin air after delivering some very promising preliminary sketches of individual Red Guards.
... and some more: I like particulary the inner demons of Daskinor (it's a brilliant idea!) and the Khvakhas are a nice way to introduce some small and sneaky green people... especially Ghazrashuna the Changeling (aka Leonard Zellig ;) ). The adventure hooks seem good too... I haven't read closely the rules, stats, etc. (and certainly won't soon) but I love the flavor texts and background ideas! Congrats guys, it's a perfect job!
NB: Some random ideas: maybe a pronunciation guide and a map of the Trembling Plains...
Looks great. Thanks a lot Bruno for your tremendous work. +3 Poké-Points! And even some contribution by me in it!
My first poké-point ever! Me so happy! :D
Red Guard sounds really corny/stupid and evokes Mao and Stalins Red Guards. Eldarich is some quasi North Korean Athasian varient.
Why not just add some black uniform quasi SS organisation left over from the Cleansing Wars who want to wipe out all non humans.
At best the Red Giards are goofy/corny at worst offensive. all them something else as they're a bit to blatant IMHO.
Why not just add some black uniform quasi SS organisation left over from the Cleansing Wars who want to wipe out all non humans.
Just what I said. But they wouldn't let me! I still have the SS-NPCs ready for publishing (with leather trenchcoats, flamethrowers & everything). I am German after all. Jawohl!
Only three words: excellent, excellent, excellent!
... and some more: I like particulary the inner demons of Daskinor (it's a brilliant idea!) and the Khvakhas are a nice way to introduce some small and sneaky green people... especially Ghazrashuna the Changeling (aka Leonard Zellig ;) ). The adventure hooks seem good too... I haven't read closely the rules, stats, etc. (and certainly won't soon) but I love the flavor texts and background ideas! Congrats guys, it's a perfect job!
NB: Some random ideas: maybe a pronunciation guide and a map of the Trembling Plains...
The map is coming with the Lost Cities supp. the Trembling Plains. Since I actually did the map over a year ago, I could get that up on our site, along with useful finished blurbs from LCotTP, and more campaign information regarding the inner demons that didn't quite fit with the monster/NPC description, but would be useful to a DM wondering how to use them in an Eldaarich campaign, and how they fit into the history.
The pronunciation guide is an interesting idea. I'm working on a glossary of terms, and I guess that slipping pronunciation info into the glossary would be easy, organization-wise. (LCotTP has too many sections -- that's what's held up development and also is how FFN was born, simply by cutting a few sections out of LCotTP). If you want to list the words where pronunciation is a particular mystery, I'll be glad to break them down for you here, and then I'll cut and paste them into the glossary. I can guess one word that's at the top of the list: Khvakhas, right?
______________________
@Zardnar -- the historical "red guards" you speak of were not in North Korea. They were in the People's Republic of China. According to the PRC, they weren't even "Mao's" red guards. :D Furthermore, those were *not* the only "red guards" in history. But if real world parallels offend you, here are a few more for you to contemplate: the "Red Guards" is just a popular nickname because they wear read and they guard things. The RGs actually call themselves the Neshtap, which some might say evokes the historical gestapo. And the Red Guard outfits look a little like the KKK, with the pointy hoods. And the Red Guard recruiting is a bit like that of the Roman legions.
While you're at it, have you ever noticed that the "cleansing wars" was a blatant allusion to the "ethnic cleansing" of the former Yugoslav republic? If that wasn't blatant enough for you, read Lynne Abbey's dedication to Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. That Raam uses India's caste system and asian words like "mansabar"? That Nibenay leans heavily on Thai culture, architecture, and language?
But none of this explains why you keep raising "North Korea." I don't think there would be anything innapropriate about drawing on North Korea or any other Earth culture to develop an Athasian culture, but as far as I can tell, we didn't draw anything from North Korea. Daskinor does not go around kidnapping Kurnan actresses. Daskinor does not post his own image all over his domain. Daskinor is not building a weapon of mass destruction. The Eldaarish live in fear and many of them try to escape, but those traits are NOT specific to North Korea -- big Kim and little Kim didn't invent the idea of the totalitarian state. You'd have an easier time building a case to say that Eldaarich is Ceaucescu's Romania, France under Robespierre's reign of terror, or the USA under the reign of counterterror aka the Patriot Act, Iran under the Shah, or (to a lesser extent, but still closer than NK), Iran under the Ayatollahs. But the fact is that Eldaarich, as we have developed it, has less resemblance to any historical Earth culture than any of the city-states of the Tyr region.
Besides, the Red Guards have been around in official publications for years now, and unofficially circulated for nearly a decade. I wrote and circulated Wisdom of Terror a few days before my now nine year old son was born, and the DS community seemed to embrace that picture of Eldaarich, in which the Red Guards featured heavily. Wisdom of the Drylanders was officially released several years ago, and updated with art and new articles last year. I'm hard to think of any Dark Sun term or concept that didn't have at least two or three detractors.
Creating a Khvakhas, page 76. :P
Mmm
Immunity to Undead (Su): If an undead creature played any direct role in its death, a Khvakhas cannot be permanently killed; its body reforms 1 day after its apparent death.
Nice! Eternal undead warfare!
Yes, awesome work. I really liked the history of the first Butcher of Dwarves and the section on Doe Mal Payne. Much more than I expected! A map of ancient sites would be an great addition.
Yes, Egendo (who I had a large hand in, and am very pleased with) has some very interesting info in his background history. AFAIK, it is the first bit to detail how the Preserver Jihad began.
I must say that I am very very pleased with how this all came out. I think that it is excellent work, and that it adds richness to world, opening up a new area for development in campaigns and adventures.
And after you get your head around this stuff, we'll be working on more.
MAybe I know to much about history but the term was also used in Soviet Russia under Stalin to denote experienced combat units IIRC during the red terror. The term evokes the communist countries during Mao and Stalin.
Numerous RPGs and fantasy books have cultures roughly based on real life earth ones but not many will draw a reaction like Fascist or Communist ones as thoses regimes were responsable for the worst atocities of the 20th century and Stalin and Mao killed more people than Hitler. The comparison is to blatant methinks.
I doubt you would name an NPC group the SS and have them deport monorites to death camps. The Soviets used armed forces to seize food from peasants in the 20's a'la the Red Guards in Wisdom of the Drylanders.
The term doesn't offend me but I do find it very corny.
__________________
While I like the concept of the Red Guards theres one major issue with them I have- the title.
I first noticed the term Red Guard in Wisdom of the Drylanders and the way they were described there was stupid as well.
Well, if you can't agree with yourself, then I don't think that you and I are going to agree. :P More importantly, your description of WotDL does not agree with anything that I wrote. For example, you say:
The Soviets used armed forces to seize food from peasants in the 20's a'la the Red Guards in Wisdom of the Drylanders.
You are wrong on at least two counts. The Red Guards in Wisdom of the Drylanders do not "seize food from peasants." The Red Guards do not even interact with food-growing peasants, they deal with with enslaved craftsmen. WotDL describes Red Guards bringing food and water tothe craft villages, and taking a quota of finished goods.
To my knowledge, there's nothing in the history of communism and fascism that replicates the WotDL scenario. As best I can tell from your argument, you have projected communism and fascism into WotDL, and misread details about that Neshtap to fit your understanding of history (I've never heard of Soviet "Red Guards," and certainly did not use them as a model.)
but not many will draw a reaction like Fascist or Communist ones as thoses regimes were responsable for the worst atocities of the 20th century and Stalin and Mao killed more people than Hitler. The comparison is to blatant methinks.
Again, I never made the comparison; your infererred comparisons are based on misreading WotDL and FFN.
Additionally, if someone were to design a DS city in the way that you mistakenly claim that I did, the comparison would be far less blatant than the overt "Cleansing Wars" allusion to the "ethnic cleansing" that occurred because of autodestruct mechanisms that the communist Tito put in place. That's the whole premise of Dark Sun. Maybe most folks can't handle that sort of allusion in fantasy fiction and RPGs, but evidently, DS fans can and do handle it, so long as it's handled sensitively.
To sum up -- (1) the Red Guards are not what you say they are. (2) There's nothing inherently innapropriate from borrowing from any earth culture to flesh out an athasian culture. Will and I discussed but ultimately did not use North Korea, simply because NK did not mesh with our reading of how the WC presented Daskinor and Eldaarich. That doesn't mean that an NK-based city-state would be incompatible with the Dark Sun campaign. Whether a product works or not depends on how you adapt the ideas, more than what ideas you are adapting.
:P
We have written some things that we would not have used before WWIII started. In 1999, Will and I had no idea that Afghanistan and Taliban would ever become so high-profile. How were we supposed to resist borrowing a few details from a society where some people are forced to dress like the Eldaarish picture in the WC, where public executions occur in sports events, and spectators beaten if they don't applaud the executions? Imagine our dismay when this country that used to only get featured in a few obscure internet news articles, suddenly became a major media focus and a public enemy. We had to rewrite and retool a few sections, and consequently, Eldaarich borrows less from any one earth civilization, than any Tyr region city.
This an excellent product. Even without any specific usage of the setting, it is a great resource for fully realized 3.5 DS NPCs to be used anywhere the DM needs them.
Flip is the one that had the original idea for a "Faces" product, and with Bruno's adaptation to MM4 format, we've tried to create a slew of generic but task-specific NPCs like "Caravan footsoldier," and "mindbow" that can be used in a variety of places. I tried also to create NPC teams with complimentary skills, e.g. the "war inix team." Put these four NPCs together, in an Inix howdah, and these guys pose a very serious challenge.
Hopefully this is an idea that can be implemented better by more talented rules mechanics than myself.
Hey Brax, you might want to hit up Dasch for his mapmaking skills. It would seem that most of us have been more than happy with his work and, IMO, really strengthen the quality of the project overall - if he's willing. Please, oh please, oh please.
I don't have the time to work with a full team anymore -- those days are past.
For example, while the community is filled with amazing artistic talent, I've found only one artist who I can count on to respond to communications within a week. I've got two artists who showed stunning sketches, said they had work ready to scan, and then haven't responded for a year. And I've also needed to drop things for weeks or months at a time because of life, school, and career issues. From now on, I'm submitting articles for review, publishing them, and reviewing proposed additions by others. I would love to have great art and other writing joined into the project, if it's consistent, or have my work joined into someone else's project, so long as that portion remains my work, but barring any major changes to my life/career/need to make a living, I am pretty much done with team writing for Dark Sun. It takes too much time, and it is not fun for me anymore.Short answer to your question: I don't want release of LCotTP's maps and information delayed unnecessarily. I'll release the maps as I have them within the month, along with some of the text of LCotTP in article form, after review. Whether we use someone else's maps down the line is more than I can say at this time. I'm just taking it all one step at a time. When all of the LCotTP articles are out, and we've had time to get fan input and make any changes, including art, maps, and even other articles that I've approved as consistent with the other material, someone else will probably bind it into a PDF. Hopefully by then some of this promised artwork will have shown up (and if it does, it will be spectacular!). But those details are out of my hands.
Nah, Brax was blatantly copying Star Wars' imperial Red Guards! Everyone knows that, tsk tsk tsk. And don't try to deny it, Brax, you'll only dig yourself in deeper!
:P
Damn, you got me. ;) Apparently, I overestimated the power of the dark side of the force.
OK perhaps I'll rephrase it. When you hear the term Red Guards doe you think of Communism?
Also, Eldaarich is not a communist state. It is a Prison State. The biggest Prisoner is Daskinor himself. Don't think of the templar orders as anything other than gangs in an insane paranoid city of death, and you should be fine.
If it seems that things appear familiar so real world events, that is because our experience of how these things play out is proven over the course of history. So a fantasy world is going to follow a similar pattern as far as behavior and attitudes and movement towards oppression and corruption.
In Eldaarich, the dead are animated to work for the living (templars and nobles secretly bury their dead.) No one is safe, even psionic users (a staple of life almost everywhere) were purged after the psionatrix was used. Imagine what the Sun turning Blue did, or the fact that Tyr-Storms (who knows what they'd call them in Eldaarich) would do to the biggest Prisoner in Eldaarich, that old Spider Daskinor.
It's not Communism, its a Prison/Insane Assylum where the worst psychotic criminal in the place runs the place. So, much much worse.
Yes, but that is my projection.
Also, Eldaarich is not a communist state. It is a Prison State. The biggest Prisoner is Daskinor himself. Don't think of the templar orders as anything other than gangs in an insane paranoid city of death, and you should be fine.
If it seems that things appear familiar so real world events, that is because our experience of how these things play out is proven over the course of history. So a fantasy world is going to follow a similar pattern as far as behavior and attitudes and movement towards oppression and corruption.
In Eldaarich, the dead are animated to work for the living (templars and nobles secretly bury their dead.) No one is safe, even psionic users (a staple of life almost everywhere) were purged after the psionatrix was used. Imagine what the Sun turning Blue did, or the fact that Tyr-Storms (who knows what they'd call them in Eldaarich) would do to the biggest Prisoner in Eldaarich, that old Spider Daskinor.
It's not Communism, its a Prison/Insane Assylum where the worst psychotic criminal in the place runs the place. So, much much worse.
When I read Wisdom of the Drylanders I thught Red Guards=Mao and Eldaarich= North Korea/Mao China hybrid. Just my impression. How about cll them Crimson Guard? Same thing really, sounds better.
When I read Wisdom of the Drylanders I thught Red Guards=Mao and Eldaarich= North Korea/Mao China hybrid. Just my impression. How about cll them Crimson Guard? Same thing really, sounds better.
Part of the problem is that the name Red Guards is not their real name. It is what ordinary people call them The order is call the Neshtap.
Ordinary people don't want to call them a name that is cool, because they hate/fear them. Plus, Red Guard is easily shortened to Reds. Quicker for alerting allies and whatnot (those 6 word free actions are syllables in my games).
That said: it's your campaign, if you even choose to use this stuff, and you want them to be Crimson instead of Red: go for it. Just remember that really, they are the Neshtap.
First: Both the Spartans and the Imperial Romans used red as their color of choice.
Second: I'll be the first to say "up until last month I had never heard of Eldaarich or Daskinor" but what is all that different if say Emperor Nero had remained alive and in power (and being an immortal dragon of course).
Third: Sparta could have been called a prison state at various points in it's history. Citizens were not allowed to leave for generations - then there were the conquered people's lot in life.
When I read Wisdom of the Drylanders I thught Red Guards=Mao and Eldaarich= North Korea/Mao China hybrid. Just my impression. How about cll them Crimson Guard? Same thing really, sounds better.
I think this answers the question.
The RGs actually call themselves the Neshtap, which some might say evokes the historical gestapo.
And again, sounding better in a derogatory nickname doesn't work. how many times do you call someone you fear/hate by a good name? Freedom Fries anyone? National abstinence day during the last presidential election (no bush/no dick)? People use names to feel like they have their power back, and that doesn't happen by given them a cool name, it happens by giving them a bad one.
The Emperors guards are Imperial Guardsmen or sometimes the Crimson Guard.
OK perhaps I'll rephrase it. When you hear the term Red Guards doe you think of Communism?
No. Nor do I think about Islam when I hear "preserver jihad." Frightened people do frightening things when you give them frightening amounts of power.
Alright here's a little bit of trivia to get people off the North Korea thing -
First: Both the Spartans and the Imperial Romans used red as their color of choice.
Thank you!
Second: I'll be the first to say "up until last month I had never heard of Eldaarich or Daskinor" but what is all that different if say Emperor Nero had remained alive and in power (and being an immortal dragon of course).
Yes, Nero was one of our models, as was Caligula. We've used a number of models, and I think what has emerged is something pretty original and true to the WC description.
Third: Sparta could have been called a prison state at various points in it's history. Citizens were not allowed to leave for generations - then there were the conquered people's lot in life
Excellent point. Sparta's actually good example of collective tyranny, which many folks incorrectly assume was a postmarxist invention. Eldaarich partakes of that, but there's more to it. Eldaarich, unlike Sparta, is divided. For want of a better term, Eldaarich is in a "cold civil war" between templar bureaus which would rather assimilate power than, say, go out and put an end to the blight of urban cannibalism.
I particularly enjoyed the First Butcher and so forth, and I am amazed at what you guys have pulled together out of the little clues and asides from products published years ago. I unfortunately feel more and more that DS jumped the shark beginning with the second box set, yet even as I recognize that I am in the extreme minority on this issue, it's still quite awesome to see all that you guys have made of the information in those latter-day publications.
Happy dark sunning everyone. Nice to know the campaign still lives... although I'm still waiting to see a Dark Sun movie trailer.
Congratulations on the completion! Major kudos to everyone who helped put it together.
Most TSR settings had major shake ups in the 90's and some of the stroy lines were a bit whacked out- not just in DS.
It does seem like it is missing two of the "faces " I would have thought would be there, namely the two sorcerer-kings. Are they going to be in the later releases or are they purposely left unstatted?
It does seem like it is missing two of the "faces " I would have thought would be there, namely the two sorcerer-kings. Are they going to be in the later releases or are they purposely left unstatted?
Yes, each city-state and their sorcerer-king will have its own product.
although I'm still waiting to see a Dark Sun movie trailer.
Now there we can accomodate you -- the trailer that is; there's no movie in development. Nelson made a marvelous little video clip showing the retractable bridge from South Guard to Fort Mudwatch, over a year ago.
_________________
Edited to add -- If anyone else is as mystified as I was by the expression "jump the shark," but embarassed to ask, here's what I googled up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark
Maybe it's only a detail that a language/culture fetishist such as myself would care about, but here's the part which seemed most interesting to me:
the phrase was first coined by Hein's college roommate, Sean J. Connolly, in 1985. In print, the term first appeared in the May 29, 1998 Jerusalem Post newspaper article, "It's All Downhill"
That's a relief, since it means that my vocabulary is only 9 years behind the curve, rather than 30. Who'd have thunk that "Happy Days" would continue to influence the language into the 21st century? It boggles the mind.
Brax, with that response - I think I'm liking Eldaarich even more!
:D Which was the selling point -- Caligula or "the blight of urban cannibalism?" :D
:D Which was the selling point -- Caligula or "the blight of urban cannibalism?" :D
"cold civil war" + "the blight of urban cannibalism".
Of course partying like Caligula always comes to mind, but that's another city.
If you're ever in Eldaarich, and see a small group of dark hooded persons carrying what appears to be a gagged human being struggling in a leather bag, good luck figuring out whether what you are witnessing is part of:
(a) a lawful arrest.
(b) a dispute between templar orders.
(c) preparations for a lawful marriage.
(d) preparations for an unlawful supper.
Yes, awesome work. I really liked the history of the first Butcher of Dwarves and the section on Doe Mal Payne. Much more than I expected! A map of ancient sites would be an great addition.
Descriptions and some maps of the ancient sites will appear in LCotTP. There's a whole section on "Dead Cities" that's IIRC at least 30 pages long.
While I said earlier that I don't want to hold up the project for more art and maps, I would be very eager if Dasch was interested in mapping or diagramming the Dead Cities. Nelson's done a fabulous job with Hogalay, but Thorlo, the seven Goblin cities of the southern White Mountains, a few troll ruins, and a number of other sites could really use some quality maps.
Pretty pretty please?
Overcouncil trumps you both ;) This is an FFN thread.
And who's the lead Project Manager for it? Huh? Huh? :P
and two cents to buy some milk 
And who's the lead Project Manager for it? Huh? Huh? :P
Let me see ... who did I assign to that position again ... ;)
It looks like fascinating work you guys have put out. I enjoy reading it. I could never help with it I fear...
It's still in Beta, so these comments really do help.
I particularly enjoyed the First Butcher and so forth, and I am amazed at what you guys have pulled together out of the little clues and asides from products published years ago.
I'm glad that those efforts are appreciated. We've put long hours into arguing and scrutinizing points to avoid contradicting official sources, and to base as much as possible on those little clues and hints from past products, as you described. And if we've missed any inconsistencies, hope that the broader DS community will help us catch them while the product is in Beta!
Certainly. I'm just wondering how much of a factor that is, and how much of a factor comes from folks feeling excluded by the Athas.org insider chat of the last 10-11 posts -- that's the point where we stopped getting fan responses to FFN.
If I were to venture a guess, I would say that readers are in the digestion phase. It is a large document, and it took a while to put together, I'll forgive a little wait for feedback.
That said, as a DM I ran some of the Black Brethren against my PC's, and they (The Black Brethren) tore it up. (Check out the Kurnan section) The Black Scouts (Psywar Elocators) could float out of range of combat and rain down arrows using their Greater Psionic Shot and really do some damage. Especially with those potion fruits of True Strike.
That said, as a DM I ran some of the Black Brethren against my PC's, and they (The Black Brethren) tore it up. (Check out the Kurnan section) The Black Scouts (Psywar Elocators) could float out of range of combat and rain down arrows using their Greater Psionic Shot and really do some damage. Especially with those potion fruits of True Strike.
Sounds like we should take a look at the team CRs. We took a lot of effort to create specialized teams for their particular functions, so it stands to reason that they are going to be tougher in those situations. Not to mention that the BBs are much better equipped than the average group of adventurers, coming from the city-state of Kurn where preserving magic is legal and openly practiced.
OTOH that makes the BBs all the more attractive as a target since if you do take them down, you get their stuff!
A potion of true strike combined with greater psionic attack is a pretty lethal combination, though, isn't it?
Basically, I looked at the number of folks living in Kurn versus Eldaarich, and said, these Kurnans have to have some sort of an edge to have survived all these years with Eldaarish neighbors. Proliveration of low-level wizardly items (such as potions) seemed to be a likely edge under the circumstances.
plus the subject was already minimaly popular amongst fans anyway.
Life shaping, yes, but Kurn and Eldaarich have been a pretty popular topic of discussion over the years, IIRC.
But the bigness point is well-taken -- just another reason to start releasing beta stuff in article-sized pieces.
Sounds like we should take a look at the team CRs. We took a lot of effort to create specialized teams for their particular functions, so it stands to reason that they are going to be tougher in those situations. Not to mention that the BBs are much better equipped than the average group of adventurers, coming from the city-state of Kurn where preserving magic is legal and openly practiced.
I am not saying that I disagree. I like smacking my players around. And I wrote the BB stuff so I wanted to take what was given to me and make an optimized team. These guys should, and do, rock. The better equipment helps, but I think that equipment for them is more a sign of Oronis's level of commitment to his people than a sign of power. I think it plays into the idea of them being a place where people are happy (for DS) much better.
OTOH that makes the BBs all the more attractive as a target since if you do take them down, you get their stuff!
My Players are trying to find a way to plant the potion fruits and get more!
A potion of true strike combined with greater psionic attack is a pretty lethal combination, though, isn't it?
Choosing the right time to use it is the hard part, for players. BB can get more when they need it. I am sure that Kurn has groves of these things, as well as other varieties. This idea is interesting... spinning thoughts... hmm....
Basically, I looked at the number of folks living in Kurn versus Eldaarich, and said, these Kurnans have to have some sort of an edge to have survived all these years with Eldaarish neighbors. Proliveration of low-level wizardly items (such as potions) seemed to be a likely edge under the circumstances.
I agree. And I don't think they are overpowered. One thing that needs to be remembered is that athas.org stuff relies only on OGC and stuff that athas.org makes. So all the fun stuff from the Complete series and things like the Tome of Battle won't make athas.org releases, but probably will make DS games that use athas.org stuff. That is one of the reasons I push so hard for the Practiced Manifester/Caster feats. There are other cool feats and abilities that come from other books that don't get used right now, and the only way that athas.org can use them is to have a "enhanced" section of the rules that says: "If you are using the Tome of Battle, use the Jade Phoenix Mage PrC for the Wind Mages." Followed by stated NPC's that use the stuff. It's not the "official" version, it would be the enhanced one.
The Double Templar is one of the most creative character concepts i have ever seen. i once talked about something like this with my players and they just looked at me with that (can't fool a SK) look, so i am glad to see it finally happening!
The Founders are very cool and i want to know more about them!
i will be reading up on the rest of the Drylander and FFN very soon. really great info!
Next time, please also put word out on the hibernating mailing list, so that infrequent board users like me are also alerted to the good news! ;)
(Hmh, let's see if my avatar still works after the 'revamp'...)
Lastard >8)
In the descriptions of the caravans, why does both the House Inika Caravan (Northbound) and the two Dedys Consortium Caravans include a druid? What would a druid be doing in a merchant caravan?
For the Strategies and Tactics of many of the archers it says, "When firing, they attack one creature, riddling it with arrows until it is down, then move to the next."
This reminds me of an old carton in Dragon magazine, where an army is attacking a castle. The archers defending the castle fired their arrows and all of them hit the same attacker, leaving the rest of the army untouched to charge the castle walls. One the archers is saying, 'hey look at that we all aimed at the same guy.'
I realize this is one of those D&D strategies (i.e. it works because of the rules not because it is realistic) but at what point do these archers choose to not pick the same target? If there are 30 archers are they all going to pick the same target? 100 archers?
What if it was changed to say, "The archers fight in units of 10 (or 6 or 15 or some other number). When firing each unit attacks one creature, riddling it with arrows until it is down, before moving on to the next target."
Meraan Azeth seems to be an interesting NPC. If there is not more description of him in the other releases, I hope he's entry here could be expanded. It does not seem to be enough for such a unique individual.
I was just looking at the FFN beta and came across a little tidbit of info that I disagree with. The issues I have pertain to the entry for Trenbull Allraam'ke (on p. 90). In his entry he is stated as having the following:
- Languages: Common, Moratuc
- Atk Option: favored enemy giants +6
- (all feats suggest his Combat Style to apply to ranged weapons)
Now, going off his entry in the Dragon Crown adventure (as well as the information found throughout the adventure), I find the following "complications".
- Trenbull had spent several years amongst the Moratuc, building friendly relations and a trade pact with the beasthead giants of Dhuurgazh (not exactly characteristics of a person dedicated to fighting giants, ie. favored enemy).
- Trenbull is shown to use a sword and dagger. He doesn't even own a ranged weapon.
So, in my opinion his combat style should be changed to show that he uses the Two-Weapon style. His favored enemy should be changed to something other than giants (or, better yet, changed to a favored terrain), and he should be able to converse with the giants, ie. speak giant (subtracting 2 skill pts - ie. cross class skill).
Thoughts?
some targets would always hold priority over the rest, like for exsample a Nightmare beast. then both fragmented units would target the highest priority together allowing for the Whole group of archers to pincushion their target.
depending on how many ranged guards you have you can have many smaller groups of 1 lead +2 or 3 other archers for a single target. after the high priority targets are eliminated the groups can begin targetting differant opponents.
in 2e you would have sharpshooters (Called shot npc's) to do the job of an entire unit, but now with no called shots its harder to kill with 1 blow. (as far as i know.) i'm probably wrong on that count though.:D
i also like the idea of having caravan wizards magically increasing the number of arrows fired. magically creating other arrows and similar effects.
on the subject of caravan defenses i would also like to add that elemental clerics could aid in powering other types of weaponry. air pressured net cannons for exsample.
and ofcourse, the boneshard gattling gun.:evillaugh
Finished reading about the prison state of Eldaarich and i love it. Fort Mudwatch is great, i love how they filter water and the place looks like a big dam. The Brown Cloaks are going to be very hated and feared IMGs.:D The Neshtap are a very cool group too. i like the storyline about them alot. they are the perfects Prison Guards! i love the vow of silence also, adds a darker feel to them, it would be hard to remain calm in the presence of one of the Reds! They could after all cease to bring food and water to a village and the entire settlement would perish! Wicked!
The Double Templar is one of the most creative character concepts i have ever seen. i once talked about something like this with my players and they just looked at me with that (can't fool a SK) look, so i am glad to see it finally happening!
The Founders are very cool and i want to know more about them!
i will be reading up on the rest of the Drylander and FFN very soon. really great info!
I can't wait to get more of it out. With 4e looming over us, I can focus purely on the story stuff -- descriptions of places and people, etc.
The Neshtap, browncloaks, and double templars are some of my favorite types as well. I've got a wonderful 6-page outline for an adventure called "Flamesky" that features all three, particularly focusing on the Browncloaks.
Congratulations! and thank you! :D Will definitely make use of it in my current campaign!
Next time, please also put word out on the hibernating mailing list, so that infrequent board users like me are also alerted to the good news! ;)
(Hmh, let's see if my avatar still works after the 'revamp'...)
Lastard >8)
I signed back up for it, but haven't seen a single message appear there, so don't even know how to send a message to it.
I inquired about this through the templarate list, but it seems it was lost in the mix. As I never had any response, I'll just post it here for feedback.
Thank you Squidfur! I think that everyone forgot that I wasn't on the templarate list -- in fact I didn't even know that it existed; I thought that each templar group had its own list, period. So now, even though i'm the only Overcoucilor who isn't also a templar, I'm now signed to the general Template list, as of late last week.
I certainly would have incorporated those suggestions had I seen the post, and we'll make sure to incorporate them in the next rev. Did I miss any other important feedback to FFN?
In the descriptions of the caravans, why does both the House Inika Caravan (Northbound) and the two Dedys Consortium Caravans include a druid? What would a druid be doing in a merchant caravan?
There's also one with the Ssuuran caravan. I agree it should be rare, and I'll look at the Inika Caravan, but not all druids are loners, and some have financial motives. Consider The Brazen Gambit where two druids routinely travel from their village to Urik to sell medicinal seeds, in order to get resources for their village. It seems reasonable that a druid might occasionally travel with a very small caravan. The Dedys Consortium caravan and the Ssuuran caravan are very small, and travel off-road, and in the case of the Ssuurans, the druid is actually the leader.
For the Strategies and Tactics of many of the archers it says, "When firing, they attack one creature, riddling it with arrows until it is down, then move to the next."
This reminds me of an old carton in Dragon magazine, where an army is attacking a castle. The archers defending the castle fired their arrows and all of them hit the same attacker, leaving the rest of the army untouched to charge the castle walls. One the archers is saying, 'hey look at that we all aimed at the same guy.'
I realize this is one of those D&D strategies (i.e. it works because of the rules not because it is realistic) but at what point do these archers choose to not pick the same target? If there are 30 archers are they all going to pick the same target? 100 archers?
What if it was changed to say, "The archers fight in units of 10 (or 6 or 15 or some other number). When firing each unit attacks one creature, riddling it with arrows until it is down, before moving on to the next target."
Good point. Archer teams of 4 or more make sense for higher level teams, because of that team archery feat whose name I can't recall. But grunt archer teams would more likely just shoot towards the largest grouping of enemies, unless there's some good reason for them to concentrate fire, e.g. they are being attacked by a whole group of halflings led by a fireball-tossing halfling wizard riding a giant dragonfly. In the latter case, it's not really that implausible for the group to concentrate fire on the wizard.
Meraan Azeth seems to be an interesting NPC. If there is not more description of him in the other releases, I hope he's entry here could be expanded. It does not seem to be enough for such a unique individual
Glad you find Meraan intriguing. I hope to get back to him too.
I'm curious to see the responses to what's there so far.One thing kinda bugs me however.....
Why is Dote Mal Payn (not Payne) a Dragon??? He's described on page 26 of the Complete Gladiators Handbook (which is the only place he's mentioned to my knowledge) as "Minor Necromancer to former Sorcerer-King Kalak of Tyr." A Minor Necromancer becomes a Dragon? This seems very unlikely to me as even IF he could understand and cast the spell (even with the help of his T'liz mistress) there is a lot of preparation that must go into the spell before it's cast.
Athas.orgs official Dragon Metamorphosis rules state that one needs a structure costing no less than fifty thousand Gold Pieces for the transformation to take place in. Where did he get the capital to build it? Where is it located? How was it built so quickly? King Kalak is said to have been working on his Ziggurat for a hundred years so i find it almost impossible to believe that Dote Mal Payn, without the resources of a city behind him, could ever have built such a structure.
AZAZEL
Thank you Squidfur! I think that everyone forgot that I wasn't on the templarate list -- in fact I didn't even know that it existed; I thought that each templar group had its own list, period. So now, even though i'm the only Overcoucilor who isn't also a templar, I'm now signed to the general Template list, as of late last week.
The Bureaus were merged to one common Templarate group as part of the reorganization a while back. This was when you were a scholar slave studying Hamanu´s code. It should be in your Overcouncil mail backlog. You can also find it in the athas.org site news section.
Why is Dote Mal Payn (not Payne) a Dragon??? He's described on page 26 of the Complete Gladiators Handbook (which is the only place he's mentioned to my knowledge) as "Minor Necromancer to former Sorcerer-King Kalak of Tyr." A Minor Necromancer becomes a Dragon?
Same reaction here. It only shows that Brax is good at argumenting (or that people don't want to argue with him!)
Whatever the reason, it's official now. Turned out all right IMO. Brax managed to pull out a super-powerful guy out of an empty pocket, 'cause that pocket was pretty empty after Complete Gladiator was through with Payne. It's highly commendable and an honor to his writing and character-designing skills. As for us...it sure creates an interesting precedent that we can take advantage of for adapting earlier 2E characters to 3E.Same reaction here. It only shows that Brax is good at argumenting (or that people don't want to argue with him!)
When I was helping Brax with the project last year, I was the one who asked him if I could bring in a new low level dragon. After alot of emails back and forth Brax came up with the idea to use Payne as the NPC to use as he has lots of past experience using Payne as a NPC in his games. So I made the stat-block entry and Brax came up with the background story with a little help from me.
I'm happy it made it in, and we need to show how AB's can be stat'ed with different abilities and prestege classes.
-Rob
This scheme is very simple: State that what Abalach-Re and the PCs fought at the oasis was a simulacrum of Farclunn created by an epic simulacrum spell...which I already wrote and Seker built up.
Thus, Farclunn can be more intelligent and capable than was depicted in the adventure, and it explains his reaction when he tries to kill the PCs out of anger, or he's not too worried about dying. All that the original Farclunn will know is that one of his simulacrums is not reporting in, and some magic and psionic inquiries will reveal the details.
The longest living project of mine is to "bring back" Farclunn, the dead dragon from the Black Flames adventure.
This scheme is very simple: State that what Abalach-Re and the PCs fought at the oasis was a simulacrum of Farclunn created by an epic simulacrum spell...which I already wrote and Seker built up.
Thus, Farclunn can be more intelligent and capable than was depicted in the adventure, and it explains his reaction when he tries to kill the PCs out of anger, or he's not too worried about dying. All that the original Farclunn will know is that one of his simulacrums is not reporting in, and some magic and psionic inquiries will reveal the details.
Interesting! I always thought Farclunn had a clone in stasis in case of his death. That's what I had happen in my game, I never liked the way he was knocked off....
I greatly prefer simulacrums.
The difference? Gaining XP: The clone can, while the simulacrum can't. So that part sucks.
Why is Dote Mal Payn (not Payne) a Dragon??? He's described on page 26 of the Complete Gladiators Handbook (which is the only place he's mentioned to my knowledge) as "Minor Necromancer to former Sorcerer-King Kalak of Tyr."
At least a decade has elapsed since the timeframe depicted by the Gladiator's handbook. DMP originates from City State of Tyr, and there's no statement there about "minor."
And even the Gladiator's handbook never said anything about what level of psionics that he'd achieved.
A Minor Necromancer becomes a Dragon? This seems very unlikely to me as even IF he could understand and cast the spell (even with the help of his T'liz mistress) there is a lot of preparation that must go into the spell before it's cast.
Athas.orgs official Dragon Metamorphosis rules state that one needs a structure costing no less than fifty thousand Gold Pieces for the transformation to take place in. Where did he get the capital to build it?
Where do you think?
Tyr was in chaos during the months after Kalak's death. Plenty of room for folks with ambition and luck to put their hands on resources that would otherwise take lifetimes to acquire.
Also consider DMP's locale -- the troll grave chasm.
Given those facts, it seems to me that DMP making it to Dragon is more likely given the statements in the Gladiator Handbook than it is likely that Farcluun survived given the statements about his death in Black Flames.
Actually, DMP's draconization wasn't my idea; other folks who had seen my character descriptions of DMP suggested DMP as the candidate after Robert asked for a low level dragon character. We used Robert's stat block with revisions from Bruno, and my story description, with addition of some wonderful additions that Pennarin offered.
Honestly I don't think it really matters who's idea it was.
At least a decade has elapsed since the timeframe depicted by the Gladiator's handbook. DMP originates from City State of Tyr, and there's no statement there about "minor."
As far as the origins of Dote Mal Payn are concerned you are incorrect. Dote Mal Payn makes his triumphant debut in The Complete Gladiators Handbook which was released one month before City-State of Tyr. Given your reference to City-State of Tyr I took the time to go back and skim the pages of the book to see if I could locate the passages about Dote Mal Payn and I was surprised to see he IS indeed mentioned in the book at least twice.
On page 6 there is a one paragraph quote from Dote Mal Payne (as he is now being called) about "Tyr being a city of Death" and "Legions of Undead Spirits inhabiting UnderTyr" and other assorted scary stuff.
Then we jump to page 28 where there is a one liner under "Rarvin's Wagonworks" about Dote Mal Payne special ordering the construction of an Undead War Beetle.
You are correct, Brax, in that there is no statement about minor powers given in these "Descriptions."
Dote Mal Payne is not described or mentioned in Chapter 5 "UnderTyr" where his T'liz mistress comes from. There is no mention or description of him in Chapter 6 "Psionics, Magic, and Religion in Tyr" and further no mention of him in Chapter 7 "Personalities."
If there is any other mention of him in the City-State of Tyr please let me know and i will read them within minuets of reading the post.
And even the Gladiator's handbook never said anything about what level of psionics that he'd achieved.
I think that this statement hurts your argument more than it helps it. What you have stated is completely correct in that the official material does not mention Dote Mal Payne having any Psionic powers whatsoever.
Tyr was in chaos during the months after Kalak's death. Plenty of room for folks with ambition and luck to put their hands on resources that would otherwise take lifetimes to acquire.
This cuts very little ice with me. Given that Dote Mal Payne is a KNOWN Defiler and no longer enjoyed the protection of King Kalak I think he would have to flee Tyr pretty fast lest he be killed. Those who wear the Veil would come knocking on his door pretty fast. That coupled with the fact that free citizens despise Necromancers I believe he would have to flee the city within days if he were to survive.
Page 26 of the Complete Gladiators Handbook says "There is no place of safety or sanctuary for a Defiler Necromancer."
I guess he might have hidden out with his T'liz mistress.
Also consider DMP's locale -- the troll grave chasm.
Please explain this to me. I honestly don't know what you mean.
Given those facts, it seems to me that DMP making it to Dragon is more likely given the statements in the Gladiator Handbook than it is likely that Farcluun survived given the statements about his death in Black Flames.
For the record I don't like the idea of Farcluun coming back to life either.
AZAZEL
For the record I don't like the idea of Farcluun coming back to life either.
He never died in the first place ;)
Peace, Rob.
Honestly I don't think it really matters who's idea it was.
It doesn't matter to me if *you* think it matters. Proper credit for ideas matters to me, and it probably matters to those that did the work. As a matter of principle, I give credit where credit is due and I don't take credit for other people's work. Since we don't give salaries, it's particularly important that we give complete credit, particularly for good work. I think the description on DMP is good work. I can understand the objections to making him a Dragon; if we'd had time I'd like to have presented him in a pre-draconic form, with notes saying that he was advancing towards becoming a Dragon. But I think it would be fairly easy to back-convert him.
On page 6 there is a one paragraph quote from Dote Mal Payne (as he is now being called) about "Tyr being a city of Death" and "Legions of Undead Spirits inhabiting UnderTyr" and other assorted scary stuff.
Then we jump to page 28 where there is a one liner under "Rarvin's Wagonworks" about Dote Mal Payne special ordering the construction of an Undead War Beetle.
Yes, I found the CSoT stuff more interesting, and built the character based on that stuff, not the conflicting undetailed stuff in the Gladiator's Handbook. IMO, ordering the construction of the undead war beetle, and his description of having seen legions of undead spirits inhabiting UnderTyr made him more than a mere minor defiler. He may have been minor in Kalak's esteem, or perhaps his defiling skills were minor back in Free Year 3, but I think that treating him as a person of minor power would feel inconsistent with the information that you described in CSoT.
Dote Mal Payne is not described or mentioned in Chapter 5 "UnderTyr" where his T'liz mistress comes from.
I hope you're not offering that as evidence that it didn't happen, otherwise you need to read the undertyr section more carefully, since that section is very sketchy and explicitly invites others to fill in gaps.
This cuts very little ice with me.
Why in Ral's name should that matter? I have no interest in persuading you. I'm simply replying to your question, "Why is Dote Mal Payn* (not Payne) a Dragon???" I tend to assume that questions are asked seriously and honestly. If you don't want answers, then don't ask questions.
"There is no place of safety or sanctuary for a Defiler Necromancer."
How do you imagine that disproves that DMP could have grabbed items of value and/or power on his way out of Tyr?
"Dote Mal Payne is a KNOWN Defiler and no longer enjoyed the protection of King Kalak I think he would have to flee Tyr pretty fast lest he"
How do you imagine that disproves that DMP could have grabbed items of value and/or power on his way out of Tyr? Do you suppose that the golden tower and the templar's areas were totally in the power of the Veiled Alliance at any time, let alone during immediate aftermath (say hours) of Kalak's death?
Consider that Kalak probably assembled a lot of treasure & magical stuff to use as components for his transformation. Who would be more likely to know where it was -- the VA, or DMP? After Kalak died, seems like that's just one possible stash quickly accessible to an enterprising defiler who sensed the winds of change
The troll grave chasm description in the WC and the info in the dungeon adventure, "Grave Circumstances," gives some hint of what sorts of resources might have been available to him. I think that GC was over the top mind you, and making DMP a low level dragon based on stuff found in the TGC is very conservative in comparison.
Not trying to convince you; just to explain the possibilities to answer your original question. Is it likely that DMP would become a dragon? Well it's not likely that anyone would, but clearly it does happen to some people.
Isn't there another reference to him that says he may have stolen Kalak's body? I thought it was in City-State of Tyr, but did not see it there. Does anyone know where that may be? Dragon Kings?
There's also one with the Ssuuran caravan. I agree it should be rare, and I'll look at the Inika Caravan, but not all druids are loners, and some have financial motives. Consider The Brazen Gambit where two druids routinely travel from their village to Urik to sell medicinal seeds, in order to get resources for their village. It seems reasonable that a druid might occasionally travel with a very small caravan. The Dedys Consortium caravan and the Ssuuran caravan are very small, and travel off-road, and in the case of the Ssuurans, the druid is actually the leader.
After rereading the section, I think what gives me pause is the way it is writen seems to imply the druid in the Inika caravan is leading kanks to the slaughter. No one is going to be eating the kanks, but there are going to be domesticated for food producing or killed for their chitin. I think that is the image that I was objecting to. I cannot see a druid participating in that type of merchant activity.
I did not find the ssuurand druid strange, because the ssurrans already have a strange culture.
There is another reference to Dote Mal Payne in City-State of Tyr. He is mentioned as having been a frequent visiter to the Hungry, Hungry Halfling inn.
Isn't there another reference to him that says he may have stolen Kalak's body? I thought it was in City-State of Tyr, but did not see it there. Does anyone know where that may be? Dragon Kings?
You're right! He is mentioned there. Page 43.
The passage you're referring to is in The Complete Gladiators Handbook where it states that he's looking for King Kalak's body in order to revive it. Page 26 of the Complete Gladiators Handbook if you have it.
AZAZEL
You're right! He is mentioned there. Page 43.
The passage you're referring to is in The Complete Gladiators Handbook where it states that he's looking for King Kalak's body in order to revive it. Page 26 of the Complete Gladiators Handbook if you have it.
AZAZEL
Yes; that bit also suggests that DMP was more than merely a "minor defiler" in terms of personal power, even if he was "minor" in Kalak's hierarchy. Not to mention that the bones of a dragon-king would be a plausible component for a metamphosis spell.
After rereading the section, I think what gives me pause is the way it is writen seems to imply the druid in the Inika caravan is leading kanks to the slaughter.
Which part implies that? The northbound Inika caravan description specifies that these are *trained soldier kanks.*
No one is going to be eating the kanks, but there are going to be domesticated for food producing or killed for their chitin.
No. They were domesticated in Gulg, since the guards are riding them, and since soldier kanks aren't docile unless trained by specialists. Trained soldier kanks are a rarity that only appear in a novel or two -- they certainly would not be killed for their chitin! Do you think that a druid would refuse to associate with characters that purchased their trained mount in one city and then sold them at their city of destination?
Ah, I guess there are pack kanks as well in the group.
I think that is the image that I was objecting to. I cannot see a druid participating in that type of merchant activity.
I agree that a druid would not ride a queen kank in order to lead its workers & soldiers to get hacked up into chitin. I thought they would sell them as pack animals up north, where trained kanks are more valuable, but perhaps we should re-think that and swap the druid for a ranger or beastmaster type.
I did not find the ssuurand druid strange, because the ssurrans already have a strange culture.
Agreed.
A low-level DMP would be subservient, hoping to cury favor from a revived Kalk, but the powerful DMP that you designed, Brax, what would he possibly want with Kalak reborn?
Now why would DMP be searching for Kalak's body to revive it? The body itself...I get it, spare dragon parts as an ad-hoc mitigating factor for the epic spell, but reviving?
The reviving part sounds like someone's speculating about his motives, and not doing a very good job.
A low-level DMP would be subservient, hoping to cury favor from a revived Kalk,
I doubt it, since a low level defiler wouldn't even imagine he had power or resources to revive Kalak.
OTOH he might use the body as a means of extortion, threatening to revive Kalak in order to scare folks out of valuables and items of power.
the powerful DMP that you designed
I didn't design him to be powerful; I designed him to be interesting. Some folks wanted a dragon, others suggested that the DMP background/personality that I'd described over the years would make an interesting dragon. I tend to agree that he's interesting as a dragon, and I also found him interesting as a non-Dragon. Ca m'est egal, Penn.
Dote Mal Payn
"Minor Necromancer to former Sorcerer-King Kalak of Tyr. Currently in hiding following Kalak's Death. Dark rumors abound that he is looking for Kalak's body in order to revive it. These rumors have been discounted by reigning King Tithian."
It doesn't say that he IS looking for the body of the King it says there are RUMORS that he is looking for the body.
I should have posted the complete quote in my earlier response! Sorry.
AZAZEL
I should have posted the complete quote in my earlier response! Sorry.
[Homer]Why you little...argh! /strangles[/Homer]
:D
[Homer]Why you little...argh! /strangles[/Homer]
:D
I take full responsibility!
I do have one suggestion though on the damage the stampede inflicts. I think the damage for gargantuan size creatures may be too low. Using a mekillot as an example, one mekillot has a trample attack that inflicts damage of
2d8+18 (for an average per attack of 27). A stampede of mekillots would inflict damage of 6d6, which only averages 21 per attack. It seems to me that a stampede of mekillots should inflict more trampling damage than one mekillot.
For smaller creatures it does work. Using carru, and comparing it to the damage a stampede of large creatures would inflict (12.5 point average for one carru, and 14 points for a stampede).
I am not sure what it should be, but I think the gargantuan damage could be increased.
Here is the complete Quote word for word from page 26 of The Complete Gladiators Handbook.
Dote Mal Payn
"Minor Necromancer to former Sorcerer-King Kalak of Tyr. Currently in hiding following Kalak's Death. Dark rumors abound that he is looking for Kalak's body in order to revive it. These rumors have been discounted by reigning King Tithian."
It doesn't say that he IS looking for the body of the King it says there are RUMORS that he is looking for the body.
I should have posted the complete quote in my earlier response! Sorry.
AZAZEL
Ah -- now I understand Penn's earlier remark -- Penn, were you unaware that the statement was a rumor?
Here's how I deal with an "official rumor": I assume that there's either some sort of *vague* basis for the rumor, or that someone has a motive for starting a false rumor. In this case I went with vague basis. A rumor based vaguely on the truth is most likely to be accurate with respect to observed issues, and least likely to be accurate with respect to unobserved issues, particularly *motive*. For example, some alternate possibilities to how the rumor got started, from most likely to least likely:
A. Rumor-starters saw DMP entering the area of the golden tower where Kalak died, and speculated from there. (most likely)
B. Templars charged with secretly disposing with Kalak's body were discovered tortured and murdered, and the rumor-starter tried to use speak with dead to find out how they died, and found that the spirits were totally gone and uncommunicable, suggesting that a necromancer was involved.
C. Templars charged with secretly disposing with Kalak's body were discovered tortured and murdered, and rumor-starters said that they saw either DMP or his known minions near the scene of one of the dissapearances..
D. Templars charged with secretly disposing with Kalak's body were discovered tortured and murdered, and rumor-starter actually heard someone he believed to be DMP interrogating one of the dead templars.
E. Rumor-starters were hired by DMP to search for Kalak's body.
F. Rumor-starters were hired by DMP to search for Kalak's body, and DMP actually informed them that he intended to raise Kalak from the dead (least likely).
So the more likely scenarios have DMP searching through the same area as Kalak's body, and possibly looking for Kalak's body. And even if the least likely scenario, F, was true, that still wouldn't prove that DMP was telling the truth.
Given the existence of the rumor, I find it more likely that DMP was trying to grab something powerful and valuable from the golden tower during the immediate chaos after Kalak's death, before fleeing the city. Kalak's body may have been one of those things that DMP was after.
The stampede template is a great idea. I really like it and had one time tried to come up with something for a stampede. I think this will work well, as a new challenge for the players.
I do have one suggestion though on the damage the stampede inflicts. I think the damage for gargantuan size creatures may be too low. Using a mekillot as an example, one mekillot has a trample attack that inflicts damage of
2d8+18 (for an average per attack of 27).
Doesn't normal trampling damage assume that the trampler is *intentionally* inflicting damage?
A stampede of mekillots would inflict damage of 6d6, which only averages 21 per attack.
If you had the same group of mekillots actually out to intentionally *attack* you, I think that they'd do more damage to you than if you just happened to get in the way of their stampede. That's the difference between a stampede, and say, a "swarm" of wasps or piranhas, or a mob of humans or halflings. The swarm and mob are actually out to get you, whereas the critters in a stampede are possibly as afraid as you are, and possibly not even noticing you.
In that light, what damage would you suggest? What if we switched to fewer bigger dice, e.g. 3d12 or 3d20 rather than 6d6, because of the sheer luck involved in having gargantuan creatures pass over you without actual intent to harm you. With fewer big dice, it's more likely that a trampled party could have one guy take 5 points damage while another takes 35. What do you think?
Az, I really appreciate your thoroughness here, raising all of these exact quotes. This is exactly what we've go through whenever I've been involved in a team that proposes adding something to Canon; it's the 2nd reason that our products take so long to come out: consistency is more important to us than publishing to deadline. I haven't seen this kind of thorough examination since the heyday of the Dark-Sun listserv; if I knew that someone would actually look up and discuss every quote related to DMP, I'd have posted preliminary drafts here.
Thanks for the complements Brax! You know some time ago I packed up all of my old 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons boox and put them up in my attic. All of my Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, Birthright, Council of Wyrms, everything.....Except my Dark Sun books. They remain on my bookshelf to this day along with everything Athas.org has put out. All of the Athas.org material is printed, three hole punched and placed into binders right beside the 2nd edition material. I often times pick up an old Dark Sun book, that I have read probably 100 times, and read it again. My Girlfriend thinks I'm a dork but you should see some of the stuff shes into.....
I really hope I didn't come on too strong in some of my previous posts. I think that Faces of the Forgotten North was worth the wait and I'm glad that you guys take your time and go for quality over quantity. It's just I don't like the idea of Dote Mal Payne being a Dragon. Maybe it's a little irrational. I know I don't have to use him in my champaign as he is presented in the new supplement.
I can see why you would want to use Dote Mal Payne though. He is a compelling character and lets face it....Dote Mal Payne is probably one of the koolest names ever!!!
Here's how I deal with an "official rumor"
I think that the Rumor is more easily explained by simply looking at Dote Mal Payne occupation. He's an Arena Necromancer! It's his JOB to animate corpses either for easy disposal or so the Gladiators can have another go at them.
Of course the people of Tyr are going to think that Dote Mal Payne is looking for his former masters body.
AZAZEL
You got it Brax, I was unaware of the rumor status ;)
Again I apologize for that Pennarin! By the Dragon, it won't happen again! bwhahaha
Thanks for the complements Brax!
I'm an ex-english teacher turned tech writer turned wannabe lawyer, so I tend to be very specific. Some folks take it as compliment and others as insult. I just say it as I see it.
You know some time ago I packed up all of my old 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons boox and put them up in my attic. All of my Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, Birthright, Council of Wyrms, everything.....Except my Dark Sun books. They remain on my bookshelf to this day along with everything Athas.org has put out. All of the Athas.org material is printed, three hole punched and placed into binders right beside the 2nd edition material. I often times pick up an old Dark Sun book, that I have read probably 100 times, and read it again.
That's cool to know about you, Az. If you drop me an email at [email]Brax@athas.org[/email], I'd love to have you on my reviewer list.
I really hope I didn't come on too strong in some of my previous posts.
You're fine. The fact that I get annoyed with one response doesn't mean that I don't see value in other things that the same person says, nor does it mean that I was right to be annoyed in the first place.
I think that Faces of the Forgotten North was worth the wait and I'm glad that you guys take your time and go for quality over quantity. It's just I don't like the idea of Dote Mal Payne being a Dragon. Maybe it's a little irrational.
I don't think it's irrational, and I hope I didn't give that impression. I saw flaws in some specific arguments that were made against DMP being a dragon; that doesn't mean that you might not come up with another argument against his being a Dragon that might not persuade me and others. That's the whole reason we put this stuff out in Beta. And if you can't come up with a specific argument, but just think that it feels wrong, that's something worth weighing in the balance. At this beta point, it's still possible that we could de-dracofy DMP, and build another dragon character to act as the counterpoint for Egendo.
I can see why you would want to use Dote Mal Payne though. He is a compelling character and lets face it....Dote Mal Payne is probably one of the koolest names ever!!!
Agreed!
I think that the Rumor is more easily explained by simply looking at Dote Mal Payne occupation. He's an Arena Necromancer! It's his JOB to animate corpses either for easy disposal or so the Gladiators can have another go at them.
That's an excellent point! People always find it easiest to imagine something like what they've seen, and Tyrians seen him animating the dead. So if someone saw DMP poking around the Golden Tower after Kalak's death, or going anywhere near Kalak's body, that's the most likely conclusion that folks would make, since they don't know anything about epic spells or mitigating factors or spell components.
I'm an ex-english teacher turned tech writer turned wannabe lawyer, so I tend to be very specific. Some folks take it as compliment and others as insult. I just say it as I see it.
I kinda though you might be a teacher of some kind!
That's cool to know about you, Az. If you drop me an email at [email]Brax@athas.org[/email], I'd love to have you on my reviewer list.
Kool! I'll defiantly do this!
That's an excellent point! People always find it easiest to imagine something like what they've seen, and Tyrians seen him animating the dead. So if someone saw DMP poking around the Golden Tower after Kalak's death, or going anywhere near Kalak's body, that's the most likely conclusion that folks would make, since they don't know anything about epic spells or mitigating factors or spell components.
Pretty much chalk up the rumors to "office gossip" or "water fountain" talk.
Pretty much chalk up the rumors to "office gossip" or "water fountain" talk.
Make that "royal gardens" talk
I'm an ex-english teacher turned tech writer turned wannabe lawyer, so I tend to be very specific. Some folks take it as compliment and others as insult. I just say it as I see it.
Speaking of which, you never replied to the technical writer question I sent you. /mumbles
Speaking of which, you never replied to the technical writer question I sent you. /mumbles
On the contrary; I responded immediately. I'll resend the email when my laptop is back on. My response was yes, I think legacy typewriting is the cause of that disease. I also told you that I'm not sure how post period double-space gets propagated in Europe, but that the US, some folks (including I'm sad to say some folks in the legal community) continue to propagate ppds, because of the garbage that they are taught in high schools. In college English, we spent a good chunk of our time unteaching the students the garbage they'd been taught in high schools; ppds is just one very tiny example. My experience with British school English was much better than what I saw in the US schools, but then I left high school in the 1984, back when handwritten and typed essays were the norm, home PC printers were monospaced dot matrix, so ppds still had a reason to exist.
The pronunciation guide is an interesting idea. I'm working on a glossary of terms, and I guess that slipping pronunciation info into the glossary would be easy, organization-wise. (LCotTP has too many sections -- that's what's held up development and also is how FFN was born, simply by cutting a few sections out of LCotTP). If you want to list the words where pronunciation is a particular mystery, I'll be glad to break them down for you here, and then I'll cut and paste them into the glossary. I can guess one word that's at the top of the list: Khvakhas, right?
Exactly! ;) I'll do the list in november (after my final exams
) see you then!Doesn't normal trampling damage assume that the trampler is *intentionally* inflicting damage?
In that light, what damage would you suggest? What if we switched to fewer bigger dice, e.g. 3d12 or 3d20 rather than 6d6, because of the sheer luck involved in having gargantuan creatures pass over you without actual intent to harm you. With fewer big dice, it's more likely that a trampled party could have one guy take 5 points damage while another takes 35. What do you think?
I see you point. But I assume that the intentional inflicting damage would be reflected in the flat +18 damage added to the random die rolls that a mekillot trample inflicts.
Originally I would have probably just suggested raising it to 8d6 until I saw your suggestion above. Fewer bigger dice would give a bigger range and make it more likely some party members were less trampled than others. Maybe 4d12 or 3d20 would be better if that is the way to go.
The fact that I get annoyed with one response doesn't mean that I don't see value in other things that the same person says, nor does it mean that I was right to be annoyed in the first place.
Weh, that is good, because I plan to annoy you some more. ;)
I do not think I like the idea of the Carnivorous Tumbleweed very much. But what I do like is that they are misnamed. That is they do not really eat anyone, but they attack for another reason. At least I think that is the case. Most of the description seems to indicate that the CT does not actually eat its victims, but one part contradicts that. Under Typical Treasure it says, that some hard to digest possession might be found inside of a CT. If they are not eating anyone why would there be any hard to digest stuff left over?
n the contrary; I responded immediately. I'll resend the email when my laptop is back on. My response was yes, I think legacy typewriting is the cause of that disease. I also told you that I'm not sure how post period double-space gets propagated in Europe, but that the US, some folks (including I'm sad to say some folks in the legal community) continue to propagate ppds, because of the garbage that they are taught in high schools. In college English, we spent a good chunk of our time unteaching the students the garbage they'd been taught in high schools; ppds is just one very tiny example. My experience with British school English was much better than what I saw in the US schools, but then I left high school in the 1984, back when handwritten and typed essays were the norm, home PC printers were monospaced dot matrix, so ppds still had a reason to exist.
By Ral! It has been caught in the SPAM filter. /curses the SPAM filter under the twin moons.
That is they do not really eat anyone, but they attack for another reason. At least I think that is the case.
You are correct that the "Carnivorous Tumbleweed" is not carnivorous, and that it's motive for attack has nothing to do with eating. "Carnivorous Tumbleweed" is not a biological name, it's the name given to it by fearful herders that see their herd animals carried away by an ambulant shrub.
I happen to agree with you that the fact that they are misnamed is one of the most likable aspect of this creature. I greatly enjoyed encounters with these creatures after the PCs had been warned to watch out for "carnivorous tumbleweeds."
I do not think I like the idea of the Carnivorous Tumbleweed very much. But what I do like is that they are misnamed.
Most of the description seems to indicate that the CT does not actually eat its victims, but one part contradicts that. Under Typical Treasure it says, that some hard to digest possession might be found inside of a CT. If they are not eating anyone why would there be any hard to digest stuff left over?
Ah. Could be that the entry was revised by a well-meaning editor who wanted to make sure that all the MM4 bases were covered, was misled by the creature's name, and had not carefully read the rest of the entry. And that I didn't look at the edits carefully enough during my last pass through the document. :embarrass
Thanks for the catch. This sort of snafu is the exact reason that we use Beta versions.
The sheer amount of information you have managed to compile truly stands as a testament to your continued commitment to producing high-quality supplements.
This is long, so brace yourselves.
That said, there were a few things that irked me. Most of these are purely aesthetical, but nonetheless...
1) fithspit gith:
I love the concept, but from a game mechanics point of vies, there seems to have been very little love for these delightful, bacteria-munching fellows. A house Azeth child cleric has 1, yes 1 hit point less than a feral half reptile-half elf??? creature of the barrens, a savage hunter who has spent his whole life fighting to survive beneath the crimson sun, and a Kurnan field slave has 3 more
Just seems odd to me. 'Course, I could (and have) simply advanced the gith as warriors or non-spelled rangers, but still... Also, I do know that gith were statted out in ToA, but I thought maybe the filthspitters might benefit from some extra oomph seeing as how they are taking on much more powerful groups. Finally, gith were listed as having 3 HD in the 2e writeup, but I dont know how that translates...
2) House Azeth
Now I dont claim know a lot about this trading house and so cant claim to be an authority, but flavour-wise the whole tauric uncle who likes to shag inixes rubbed me the wrong way (call me a prude, but bestiality is a definite no no), as did the whole 'united races of athas' thing, with the dwarven aunt, elven cousin etc. I always felt (and that is the operative word here) that Athasian species are quite xenophobic, and this just didnt seem to fit with that, which also relates to the misgivings I have about the Eloy, though again, I adore the idea ('the tumbleweed people', sheer genius
)Finally, the Baazrag runner really seems a stretch. A creature so unintelligent that it is considered nothing but a beast of burden in many places can suddenly use a long bow? I would not have thought they had the hand eye coordination or smarts to use a weapon that takes humans a lifetime of practise to master.
3)The Black Brethren
These guys're uber l33t, which is OK since they are supposed to be Kurns elite army. I do, however, get a distinct sense that there has been a tendency to make Kurn just too good for Athas. Everything is better. The 'slaves' are happy, so are the (sometimes LG!!!!) templars, all watched over by a being who has emerged as a paragon of goodness despite having masterminded the near extinction of an entire species (eat your heart out Hitler). But these might be just problems I have with how Kurn was concenptualised to begin with, rather than your specific take.4)Eldaarish Templar order names. Now I know this has been brought up by Shardzaar in a previous post, but I just wanted to say that transparently naming them after real world organizations whose actions have maimed and ruined the lives of countless thousands seems to be in exceedingly bad taste, as does the appropriation of a seeming misinterpretation of a very specific term (jihad) and using it to mean 'something that those not acquainted with the term think it means'. Brax put it correctly when he said that DS should not become the vessel of anyones real world political agenda, but I think that maintaining a certain level of decorum and respect can hardly be considered doing that.
Chahir
You are right that we are constrained by by the WC's original conceptualization of Kurn. Developing Kurn on the WC foundation requires us to provide a believable explanation why this city-state still exists despite its few numbers and its position between the bandits of the glowing desert, the rohorind halflings, and Daskinor, a dragon-king who evidently had enough power (or the appearance thereof) to frighten away Borys the Dragon. The WC makes clear that those who have attacked Kurn have found it to be surprisingly strong. But if there's something there that you think goes clearly overboard, making those NPCs unreasonably powerful even given the circumstances and role that they play, the more specifics you can give, the better.
A creature so unintelligent that it is considered nothing but a beast of burden in many places can suddenly use a long bow?
As I read the Baazrag ToA entry, the Baazarg is considered a beast of burden in most places because of its physical inability to articulate other languages, *not* because of its low intelligence. Its INT, while low, is still within sentient range. And the ToA stats them out for potential use as a PC race. We could switch it to shortbow if that would feel more believable to you, though.
We are not the ones that appropriated the word "Jihad." See Defilers and Preservers. That's the official term that was handed down to us from DS2e and we're not mincing it for political correctness. Bad taste? Maybe. But it's official bad taste, and we're sticking to it. We don't go changing unambigous and established canonical facts over a matter of taste. We don't pull a retcon unless there's a contradiction in the previous materials, etc.
We are not the ones that appropriated the word "Jihad." See Defilers and Preservers. That's the official term that was handed down to us from DS2e and we're not mincing it for political correctness. Bad taste? Maybe. But it's official bad taste, and we're sticking to it.
Yah, we killed to the last one those filthy preservers, cursed be their names! /spits on the ground
;)
DS should not become the vessel of anyones real world political agenda, but I think that maintaining a certain level of decorum and respect can hardly be considered doing that.
I absolutely agree with you on that. I do not think that decorum and respect would inherently turn DS into the vessel of anyone's real world agenda.
But excessive fastidiousness in the name of decorum and respect, e.g. avoiding real world references such as "Preserver Jihad" and "cleansing wars," would push Athas into Tolkienesque High Fantasy. I love Lord of the Rings, and I enjoy a great deal of High Fantasy, but have no interest whatsoever in patterning Athas after those models. Athas is dark; Athas is low fantasy. This means, among other things, that Dark Sun mirrors some of the horrors of our world. "We have seen the monster and it's us." Now it's difficult to play those themes out without turning Athas into a parable or an agenda vessel, but the sources did a good job of that, and I think we have too. But while decorum and respect are always something to keep in mind, they aren't the strong suits of low fantasy.
Having read your take on the supposed cultural imperialism inherent in the appropriation of terms like Jihad, I must confess that I am increasingly of the same mind of the topic as you are. Besides, Jihad has pretty much become part of the popular lexicon in any case. I continue to have some niggling doubts concerning the Eldaarish Haleban... Nuff said.
As far as the Black Brethren of Kurn are concerned, perhaps it would be helpful to determine their numbers and how many of each type (captains, chaplains, investigators) there are. While I can understand the need to follow the WC, I cannot seem to find any direct info on Kurns military. The citys population is listed as being 18'000, which should be some kind of guideline for how many troops it can support. Other than that it seems like Oronis has placed his faith in secrecy and the loyalty of his citizens rather than armed might (although of course the two need not be contradictory).
As for dear uncle Meraan :D , I dont know what I would call a centaur-horse 'collaboration';) , but I would certainly have a hard time dealing with a merchant lord who shtupped (sp?) animals of any sort (not that the PCs would need to know that part, I suppose).
Going purely on gut, the Baazrag just seems not to fit with the whole ranged weapon thing for purely aesthetic reasons. A creature often described as '600 pounds of fur and muscle' doesnt seem like an archer born, and the fact that it walks on its nuckles doesnt help. OTOH, since it has oversized hands, I can see an argument for giving it monkey grip and an even larger bow if thats the way you want to go with it:D . Woe to the adventurers who misjudge this fella (huge seeking composite longbows HURT). Oh, and to be nitpicky, the silver whistle might be changed to something less valuable like erdlu bone etc.
Just my two bits
Chahir
Thanks for your answers, Brax. Much appreciated.
Having read your take on the supposed cultural imperialism inherent in the appropriation of terms like Jihad, I must confess that I am increasingly of the same mind of the topic as you are. Besides, Jihad has pretty much become part of the popular lexicon in any case. I continue to have some niggling doubts concerning the Eldaarish Haleban... Nuff said.
I understand that. Keep in mind that Will coined those guys back in 1998 or 1999, though, before certain events knocked a certain group into public prominence.
And that based on our early work together on Eldaarich, we've already solidified the name in an official publication, WotDL. The trick is to make these objections while the idea is in Beta, or before.As far as the Black Brethren of Kurn are concerned, perhaps it would be helpful to determine their numbers and how many of each type (captains, chaplains, investigators) there are. While I can understand the need to follow the WC, I cannot seem to find any direct info on Kurns military. The citys population is listed as being 18'000, which should be some kind of guideline for how many troops it can support.
Yes and no. Oronis can also draw on the population of New Kurn as well as that of Kurn for his military if need be, and the Black and Green Brethren posted in the White Mountains are in on the NK secret.
Other than that it seems like Oronis has placed his faith in secrecy and the loyalty of his citizens rather than armed might (although of course the two need not be contradictory).
He relies on the secrecy and loyalty of his citizens to keep the secret of NK, but the WC text also says that those who have attacked Kurn have found it surprisingly well-defended.
Going purely on gut, the Baazrag just seems not to fit with the whole ranged weapon thing for purely aesthetic reasons. A creature often described as '600 pounds of fur and muscle' doesnt seem like an archer born, and the fact that it walks on its nuckles doesnt help. OTOH, since it has oversized hands, I can see an argument for giving it monkey grip and an even larger bow if thats the way you want to go with it:D . Woe to the adventurers who misjudge this fella (huge seeking composite longbows HURT).
They have some hint that it's not a typical Baazrag when they see it's wearing chitin armor. And these guys only accompany the Great Caravan, and anyone within miles of that route can tell you that the Great Caravan team is very powerful and that the Great Caravan is completely unstoppable -- has never been successfully robbed. (OTOH it's only been running for a few years since Azeth started transporting Eldaarish gold and silver).
Your monkey grip proposal does make sense, so long as the bow doesn't interfere with their running. Bruno's the rules guru for FFN; ask him about that issue. I think originally that I gave them shortbows because aesthetically it made more sense as a weapon to use on the run; another possibility would be Atlatl.
the silver whistle might be changed to something less valuable like erdlu bone
Oh, it could be, but the Baazrag runners really like the shiny whistles; they'd probably not go through the danger and unnatural effort to learn to use the bows, if they didn't get to carry the shiny whistle. :D Plus Azeth is transporting Eldaarish silver, so it seemed like a likely trick. Those whistles are effectively more dangerous than the bows, since the sound of one brings all the runners to the spot, and they have some scary teamwork-type feats.
Finally, the Baazrag runner really seems a stretch. A creature so unintelligent that it is considered nothing but a beast of burden in many places can suddenly use a long bow? I would not have thought they had the hand eye coordination or smarts to use a weapon that takes humans a lifetime of practise to master.
3)The Black Brethren
...
fithspit gith:
I love the concept, but from a game mechanics point of vies, there seems to have been very little love for these delightful, bacteria-munching fellows. A house Azeth child cleric has 1, yes 1 hit point less than a feral half reptile-half elf??? creature of the barrens, a savage hunter who has spent his whole life fighting to survive beneath the crimson sun, and a Kurnan field slave has 3 more
I've no response to these statting issues, but am reproducing them to flag them for the attention of Bruno and Chris N. Perhaps a few "barbarian" levels?
I always felt (and that is the operative word here) that Athasian species are quite xenophobic
I agree, but there are notable exceptions, such as Green Age Bodach and Giustenal, and some of the merchant houses and WC bandit groups. Azeth is an exceptional group in a number of ways.
which also relates to the misgivings I have about the Eloy
As descendants of cast-off half-elves, the Eloy are actually the product of that Athasian xenophobia you speak of. Perhaps I didn't emphasize that enough in FFN because I had so much of the yet unpublished material from Lost Cities of the Trembling Plains in mind. Glad you liked the tumbleweed people idea.
House Azeth
The tension there is intentional. Meraan Azeth is the actual founder of House Azeth, and his family tolerate his oddities largely because the Oasis of Azeth's Rest, the house's center and greatest asset, would wither up and blow away if Meraan were to die or leave the confines.
as did the whole 'united races of athas' thing, with the dwarven aunt, elven cousin etc.
I wanted to give House Azeth unique characteristics that would set them apart, and also set them up as mentors/leaders to the Eloy clans. Remember that the WC said that Oronis cut trade off with Kurn for many generations, and that Eldaarich only barely began to trade. So we had to choose between making House Azeth a fairly new house, or giving it a means of surviving for all those generations when neither Kurn nor Eldaarich was trading. We went with the latter, because that seemed like a more interesting story, and more consistent with Kerillis agreeing to trade exclusively through Azeth, if it was an ancient house.
Still havent properly absorbed all the stuff in the FFN, as it is quite daunting in scope. Im liking the Eloy more and more and the backstory for Egendo is very interesting as well as providing a veritable shedload of possible plot hooks for PCs.
On behalf of my gaming group, I tip my hat to you sir.
Chahir
I'd be delighted to hear how things play out if you use FFN in your game. So far the only game feedback I've had on FFN was Chris N's discussion of overwhelming a PC party with a group of Black Brethren.
I'm particularly interested in hearing of groups trying to take on the Red Guard, who I see as the poster villains of FFN. The current cover of FFN, by Harsh is actually slated as the final cover of LCotTP, and we're planning on using Brian Sanchez' work on a Red Guard as the FFN cover, if we can locate Brian Sanchez. (The sketch was very promising). If we can't find Brian, there's a simply amazing piece of art in FFN that's certainly more than qualified to serve as a cover, i.e. Esme's amazing work on the goblin Meorty, but that character isn't as representative and iconic as the Red Guard.
On page 35, under Kulag Raid/ Trade Party, it mentions, "...the Kulags will offer good gold prices (sp? should be gold pieces?)..." The Kulags pay in gold? Should that be silver or even ceramics? Anyone offered silver would be overjoyed, while if offered gold they would think it was a once in a life time opportunity.
On page 36, under the Savak Housecleaning party, the make up of the party is missing. Only "..." is there. Just pointing it out so that it can be updated for the final version.
A number of places sygra is spelt ssygra. Terros of Athas has it spelt as sygra.
Also the plural of inix. But inixes and inix are used in different places. I am not sure which one is correct, but I believe it is inix.
On page 61, under the section religion, it mentions that Corik Azeth takes counsel from his five-year-old great niece. Under the description of Corik Azeth, he is described as being in his mid thirties. If he is so young, how does he have a great niece already? Is there something I am missing about Corik? Is he long-lived and just appears to be in his thirties, but has some elven blood? Did it mean to say Cozek Azeth, Corik's father? Or should it just be that the girl is Corik's niece?
On page 104, the spy Giurnam. She and her predicament are intersting but I am confused about her lover. Her description starts by saying she is the sex slave of Sixth. Later it goes on to say if she leaves to return to Kurn someone named Kalvak also spelt Kalvaq, would do anything to capture her again. Who is Kalvak? Is Kalvak the real name of Sixth?
On page 104 to 105, is Govenor Lhonia Grey. Her description says she is a govenor, but does not mention what she is the govenor of. Would this be mentioned in one of the other releases that is yet to come?
On page 106, under ssurran trader, it mentions that, "These traders come from the Scorch." What is the Scorch? Should that be the Scorched Plateau?
I am not trying to nick pick everything. Just trying to make sure everything in FFN is clear. If the members of Athas.org working on FFN would prefer a different forum in which to make this minor questions, I can always send it my private message or email. Just let me know.
The Kulag would never pay in ceramic (since cp are minted by the Takrits), and Kulag would tend to pay in gold but not necessarily in gold *pieces*. Silver would also be OK. The Kulag transport raw gold & silver from the Huuros mines to the Dim Islands, and some of it seems to find its way into the Kulag sailor's pockets, if you can imagine that. Agreed that needs to be more clear.
Lhonia is governor of Fort Stench, which is detailed in LCotTP.
Yes, Scorched Plateau.
Kalvak should be Sixth, IIRC.
I'll fix these in FFN and respond to the other questions in a couple days when I get back from a trip (about to hop on a plane).
Page 99, under the various sample encounters with the Neshtap, there is mention of Neshtap Riders. I did not see any stats for Neshtap Riders. Should it be Neshtap Rangers? Are stats missing for the Neshtap Riders? Is the term general, and I am assuming it is specific - does it refer to just a mounted neshtap?
In the Fire and Ice adventure, someone named Nureeak is mentioned? Is he the leader of Storm Peak? He is not mentioned anywhere else that I saw. Of course he could be detailed in one of the other projects to come.
On page 112, under the Knowledge check for hte thri-kreen, La'tik-kik the result of 30 reveals that the leader of the Chugak kek pack has a vendetta against the leader of the La'tik-kik pack. But there is no more information about this vendetta given under the character's description.
Under the Harnaqs description, there is a statement that many Kurn noble families breeding farms, under Environment. But under the description for a harnaq Cow, there is a statement that one Kurn noble family maintains a harnaq breeding farm that supplies all the harnaqs to Kurnans.
In the section on Spirits of the Land, for Windflood there is the statement:
"A summoned Spirit always ejects trapped creatures before returning to its home plane."
I am not sure what this means. Windflood as a Spirit of the Land is not a summoned spirit is he? Also would not the prime be his home plane?
On page 179 for Oasis ruins dry there is the section on FLying Debris. There is a lot of speculation in wording, that looks more like people exchanging ideas and not necessarily a final version.
Not sure where that passage crept in on "summoned spirits" -- you are absolutely right that Windflood as a Spirit of the Land is not a summoned spirit.
Nureak is the leader of Storm Peak. I'll check on him, and the other points that you brought up.
Thank you!
On page 45 under Society of the Eloy, there is this quote about the camp site:
“The ring of homes, stiffened on the outside with bones and often surrounded by a ditch, fosse, or spikes, is pierced by two entrances. These are oriented by the wind - as the seasons change, and wind direction changes, the entrances are adjusted to match, guaranteeing that the prevailing wind can always flow easily through the center of camp.
The chieftain of each tribe usually has his tent pitched so that the entrance faces the direction of wind, so that the chief can bless the wind as it enters the camp. “
It seems as if the chieftains tent would be blocking the prevailing wind from “always flow easily through the center of camp” if his tent faces the direction of wind.
Is that the intention? Everyone else makes way for the wind, but not the chieftain thus showing his superiority?
On page 50, under the description of Hortruk Hammerfall.
“Out of the shadows walks a dwarf, striated muscles rippling under a skin that’s no longer there.”
I think the wording is trying to be too clever here. How can muscles rippling “under” something that is not there?
Some questions about the Neshtap, from their description on pages 97 to 99.
Under Environment it mentions they hate defilers. Why?
Why are there druids in the Neshtap? Which is mentioned under the Society section.
They appear to have some worship or affinity for fire. Why not some fire clerics mentioned as part of the Neshtap?
On page 118 for the description of the Flesh Rind
It is missing how it becomes a flesh worm in the absorption description. It only says as Gluk’kiuk. Does that mean it only needs to absorb 2 small or 1 large to become a flesh worm? Or does it need to adsorb more creatures to become a flesh worm?
I am not sure but should the 3 flesh worms have Bound to Area (Su) since they are only mentioned as being in goblin cities?
Maybe the scorched drummers too?
Here are some more questions from my reading of FFN.
On page 45 under Society of the Eloy, there is this quote about the camp site:
“The ring of homes, stiffened on the outside with bones and often surrounded by a ditch, fosse, or spikes, is pierced by two entrances. These are oriented by the wind - as the seasons change, and wind direction changes, the entrances are adjusted to match, guaranteeing that the prevailing wind can always flow easily through the center of camp.
The chieftain of each tribe usually has his tent pitched so that the entrance faces the direction of wind, so that the chief can bless the wind as it enters the camp. “
It seems as if the chieftains tent would be blocking the prevailing wind from “always flow easily through the center of camp” if his tent faces the direction of wind.
Is that the intention? Everyone else makes way for the wind, but not the chieftain thus showing his superiority?
I'll pass that on to Will.
On page 50, under the description of Hortruk Hammerfall.
“Out of the shadows walks a dwarf, striated muscles rippling under a skin that’s no longer there.”
I think the wording is trying to be too clever here. How can muscles rippling “under” something that is not there?
Point.
Some questions about the Neshtap, from their description on pages 97 to 99.
Under Environment it mentions they hate defilers. Why?
You read pages 97 through 99 and you don't know why they hate defilers? They take the whole oath to guard the land seriously. And their wealth comes from the land -- it's really effectively theirs.
Why are there druids in the Neshtap? Which is mentioned under the Society section.
They really do do a fairly good job protecting the land from defilers and other abuse. Why would the land not recognize that?
They appear to have some worship or affinity for fire. Why not some fire clerics mentioned as part of the Neshtap?
Daskinor is pretty suspicious of elemental clerics given his history with the elemental powers (more of that in PSoE). Given the Neshtap's worship of flame, the Savak are especifically looking out for Neshtap elemental clerics of flame, in order to humilliate their rival Neshtap order that kills Savak defilers, etc. Savak doesn't know enough about druids to be on the lookout for them -- remember, only the Neshtap rules over the dim lands outside the city of Eldaarich, and only the Kulag dominate the sea of silt and the Huuros Islands. The other orders are pretty confined to the city-state of Eldaarich, other than isolated Shtas outpost guards and a handful of Savak spies.
On page 118 for the description of the Flesh Rind
It is missing how it becomes a flesh worm in the absorption description. It only says as Gluk’kiuk. Does that mean it only needs to absorb 2 small or 1 large to become a flesh worm? Or does it need to adsorb more creatures to become a flesh worm?
I am not sure but should the 3 flesh worms have Bound to Area (Su) since they are only mentioned as being in goblin cities?
Maybe the scorched drummers too?
Good points. Keep them coming, and thank you.
The Inner Demons idea is great.
Before I didn't like the idea of a "first Butcher of Dwarves" but, after the description of Egendo (the claw idea is really nice) and his history, I changed my mind
About Dote Mal Payne... The description is really well done (the "He is the rare sort of defiler to stop and smell the flowers before defiling the patch." makes him very "aristocratic"... really good idea), but I prefer if you "de-dracofy" him and make him a Defiler/Royal Animator/Necromant.
Imho, a good choice for another Dragon to act as a counterpart of Egendo is Graytch.
I never saw his tradind card. All that I know about him is that he's a 5th-stage Dragon, and this text
"Once a defiler in the employ of Kalak of Tyr, Graytch learned of his potential for dragon transformation many years ago. He vanished from the Tyr region, pursuing his destiny among the wanderers and thri-kreen tribes of the distant south. With great power within his grasp, Graytch dreams of making Tyr his own."
That "many years ago" resolves the problem of "become a Dragon in few years", since it can be even King's ages ago. He could have learned of the Defiler Metamorphosis spell when Kalak fought the Kalid-Ma, when (s)he (but I prefer the 15th Champion as a male) became a rampaging Dragon.
We can change the "thri-kreen tribes of the distant south" with the Jagged Cliff region, maybe even the border of the Kreen Empire (his presence can be another region why the Kreen didn't invaded the Tyr Region or the Jagged Cliffs before).
To make him a "new threat" in the Trembling Planes, we can think that he just recovered from the animalistic rampage due to the casting of Defiler Metamorphosys V (23d6 months, so about 7 years).
I imagine him as a Defiler 5/Royal Defiler 5/Psychic Warrior 6/Cerebremancer 10/Athasian Dragon 4. I'd like to see him with psychic warrior levels, to make him more "original" (and powers like claw of energy or claws of the vampire are nice on a "well developed" Dragon)
As a 30th level char he's very powerful, but the Sorcerer Kings are about the same level (in Dregoth Ascending you've stated Dregoth as a 38th-level char so, according to the rules in the Conversion Manual from AD&D to the 3rd Edition, Nibenay and Oronis should be 32nd level), and the bonus from the Champion of Rajaat template (Regeneration, all those immunities, etc.) give them an edge over Graytch.
Maybe, we can give 2/3 levels to Egendo, to give him and Graytch about the same CR (to give a better feel of "counterparts").
I really liked this project. All those NPCs ready for use
About Dote Mal Payne... The description is really well done (the "He is the rare sort of defiler to stop and smell the flowers before defiling the patch." makes him very "aristocratic"... really good idea), but I prefer if you "de-dracofy" him and make him a Defiler/Royal Animator/Necromant.
Imho, a good choice for another Dragon to act as a counterpart of Egendo is Graytch.
I never saw his tradind card. All that I know about him is that he's a 5th-stage Dragon, and this text
"Once a defiler in the employ of Kalak of Tyr, Graytch learned of his potential for dragon transformation many years ago. He vanished from the Tyr region, pursuing his destiny among the wanderers and thri-kreen tribes of the distant south. With great power within his grasp, Graytch dreams of making Tyr his own."
That "many years ago" resolves the problem of "become a Dragon in few years", since it can be even King's ages ago. He could have learned of the Defiler Metamorphosis spell when Kalak fought the Kalid-Ma, when (s)he (but I prefer the 15th Champion as a male) became a rampaging Dragon.
We can change the "thri-kreen tribes of the distant south" with the Jagged Cliff region, maybe even the border of the Kreen Empire (his presence can be another region why the Kreen didn't invaded the Tyr Region or the Jagged Cliffs before).
To make him a "new threat" in the Trembling Planes, we can think that he just recovered from the animalistic rampage due to the casting of Defiler Metamorphosys V (23d6 months, so about 7 years).
I imagine him as a Defiler 5/Royal Defiler 5/Psychic Warrior 6/Cerebremancer 10/Athasian Dragon 4. I'd like to see him with psychic warrior levels, to make him more "original" (and powers like claw of energy or claws of the vampire are nice on a "well developed" Dragon)
As a 30th level char he's very powerful, but the Sorcerer Kings are about the same level (in Dregoth Ascending you've stated Dregoth as a 38th-level char so, according to the rules in the Conversion Manual from AD&D to the 3rd Edition, Nibenay and Oronis should be 32nd level), and the bonus from the Champion of Rajaat template (Regeneration, all those immunities, etc.) give them an edge over Graytch.
Maybe, we can give 2/3 levels to Egendo, to give him and Graytch about the same CR (to give a better feel of "counterparts").
Graytch would have made a good choose, but when I was designing the dragons stats it was desided that the dragon would only be a stage-1 dragon. Because of this Graytch could not have been used, so Dote Mal Payne was offered as a NPC to use. I went through many ideas around the background of the dragon (even at one point of a halfling), but Dote Mal Payne was a good choose I think.
The only way it might change is if Brax desides that the level incease would not throw the power balance in the region out of wack. But I don't think it will change at this point, but who knows?!?!?
You read pages 97 through 99 and you don't know why they hate defilers? They take the whole oath to guard the land seriously. And their wealth comes from the land -- it's really effectively theirs.
They really do do a fairly good job protecting the land from defilers and other abuse. Why would the land not recognize that?
I will try to use an analogy to explain my view. Take a farmer and an environmentalist. Not that they are mututally exclusive. One can be a farmer and an environmentalist but being a farmer does not automatically mean one is an environmentalist. A farmer tends his land and looks out for it, making sure nothing will ruin it. But he may use methods that would enrage an environmentalist, ie heavy use of pesticides, use of fossel fuel burning farm equipment, over hunting preditors that prey on the animals he raises. Such actions may not harm the farmer’s land, but could have an affect on the ‘land’ or could indirectly create long term problems in the future for his land.
The way I read the description of the Neshtap, they are farmers, but do not appear to be environmentalists. I understand that there could be more information about them in PsoE that may add to the nature of the Neshtap. But from what I read in FFN the only evidence of them being environmentalists is just a couple of statements. (They hate defilers and there are druids in the order.) I will give the section another read to make sure I did not miss anything.
Imho, a good choice for another Dragon to act as a counterpart of Egendo is Graytch.
I never saw his tradind card. All that I know about him is that he's a 5th-stage Dragon, and this text
Another possibility for dragon, could be Thanik Arkos. He is the former head master of the school of thought in Tyr. In City-State of Tyr, 2nd edition he was 19th level psionicist/ 7th defiler. Not sure if his 3rd edition stats are anywhere. He was trying to increase his defiler ability and learn more about dragon transformation, which he knows something about.
Not that I am against Dote Mal Payne. I think he is an interesting and useful NPC as portrayed in FFN. Just that I know nothing about Graytch other than that he appeared on a trading card and think Thanik would make a better candidate.
IRRC there're no official 3rd edition stats for him. I made him a Constructor, to balance the thing that he's a lone wolf with few henchmen.
(It's funny to see that all those candidates are from the city of Tyr ;))
I compliment the idea of the Shrunken Heads, because it's another "gruesome" thing taken from human culture, like the human sacrifice, or genocides. I see it very "in line" with the old ideas that developed the setting.
Page 51-52 under Hogalayan Lore
Knowledge (Religion) the results for 30
This seems not to work. The check tells the character that the dwarves have information they may find useful but also tells them what that information is. Why does it reveal Egendo as the first Butcher of Dwarves? Which also reveals indirectly that there was a Cleansing War and that some races were marked for extermination by champions.
Page 112 under Hozi’chak Lore
Knowledge (Nature) the result for 15
“The markings on these kreen signal that they belong to the Hozi’chak pack, the leaders of the mind who claim as territory the some lands barrens and deserts far south of Hogalay.”
Why say Hogalay? Is it hidden? Since I have not seen the rest of the project I don’t know enough about Hogalay to determine if the ruined city is hidden or if everyone knows where the ruins are and it is a common land mark.
Page 117 Core Wights Lore
Knowledge (Religion) result 17
This gives way too much information away. What are lizardfolk? Who was Keltis? That is a lot of information that has been lost to history to easily be brought up with a knowledge check.
Page 119 under Flesh Worm Lore
Knowledge (Religion) results for 17.
Why is it called a goblin? How can anyone tell what a flesh worm was before? And why would someone know they are from a race that has been extinct for thousands of years.
Page 136 under Pridemane Lore.
Knowledge (Religion) result 18
Why do they know what a wemic is? Another race long dead.
Page 139 Scorched Drummer Lore
Knowledge (Religion) results for 21
This mentions the cleansing wars and what a troll is. I do not understand how either of these things be obvious from seeing a scorched drummer.
Page 145 under Spirits of the Trembling Plains Lore
Knowledge checks
Result 25 reveals the Spirit’s related season, but there is no lesser result to discover the unusual season sharing nature of the spirits of the trembling plain? Maybe it should be at 20.
Page 147 Stampede Lore
Knowledge (Nature) result 30.
The numbers seems way too high to know what a stampede is.
A little Jeff Foxworthy comedy break.
“Say there Enos, you sees that large bunch of animals runnin’ ‘round all crazy like, and comin’ towarghds us’in.”
“Yeap, I do, Cletus.”
“Well that there is called a stam-pede.”
“Wow, Cletus. You’s sure are a genius.”
on page 124
"The harnaq is a remarkable egg-laying mammal whose milk is very prized in Kurn."
I am no animal expert, but I did not think that egg laying animals product milk. I thought it was one or the other, but could be wrong.
;)
Ok, I know I said the last post had my last comments but I noticed one more. This time about the harnaq.
on page 124
"The harnaq is a remarkable egg-laying mammal whose milk is very prized in Kurn."
I am no animal expert, but I did not think that egg laying animals product milk. I thought it was one or the other, but could be wrong.
I'm aware about Earth egg-layng mammals (Echidna and Ornithorhynchus), but anyway I think we cannot use the same logic for Earth and Fantasy worlds.
If we do that, intelligent reptilian-like creatures should dominate any world by numbers. BTW a pregnancy is far longer than any egg incubation time.
So, if there weren't any earth animals like these, they could be made up in Athas or "anywolrd" else...
IMHO...
Tarlyn Veladorn
Even in the Dark Sun core rules, on humans "webbet feet or extra digits are not uncommon".
Ok, I know I said the last post had my last comments but I noticed one more. This time about the harnaq.
on page 124
"The harnaq is a remarkable egg-laying mammal whose milk is very prized in Kurn."
I am no animal expert, but I did not think that egg laying animals product milk. I thought it was one or the other, but could be wrong.
The defining quality of a mammal is producing milk (mammary glands). Fairly certain that if a species doesn't produce milk, it fails to be classified as a mammal.
Are you familiar with this guy? A.k.a. God's sense of humor?
;)
Okay, okay, i get it the ducker lays eggs and milk. Still seems reduntant to me, like having a skeleton and an exoskeleton.