can i use the ds3 material to run a 3.5 game? what information does the ds3 lack that the offical boxset players guide includes?
i have the 2e players guide and wanders journel incase that might help but i would need to convert everything to 3.5.
you all have gotten me hungry for kank burgers again so i'm here to ask a thousand and one questions.:D
thanks for any and all replies.
after reading through the ds3 file some i can already tell this is a players guide. which is exactly what i needed for 3.5.
i already have lots of questions about new locations never mentioned in the 2e products.:D
ok so i am looking at a download from athas.org called darksun 3. it shows quite alot of great rules. it seems to me this could be the players guide for 3e ds. is this the case?
can i use the ds3 material to run a 3.5 game? what information does the ds3 lack that the offical boxset players guide includes?
i have the 2e players guide and wanders journel incase that might help but i would need to convert everything to 3.5.
you all have gotten me hungry for kank burgers again so i'm here to ask a thousand and one questions.:D
thanks for any and all replies.
DS3 means it is the third release of Dark Sun, not the version of D&D it plays with. DS1 was the original Dark Sun Campaign Setting Boxed Set, DS2 was the second box set. DS3 is the third release, unfortunately it is rules-only for various reasons right now. DS3 rules were converted/upped to 3.5e D&D for the most part.
thanks for the info dark, i'm glad it has the rules, saves me a year or more of conversions. the fluff doesnt matter so much because i can always get fluff on the boards. thanks again!
what was the reasoning behind this?
Also why dont Elves have an Intelligence Bonus?
Elves and half elves both have the same dex bonus?
and halflings have the same as the elves? Say What?
Aarakocra are listed as physically fail yet they do not have a negitive pen for con? and shouldnt they have a Wisdom bonus?
Ok so i am having some issues with these mods and really need to know WHY they were done like this.
you probably did it just fine to match up with 3.5 rules. i just can't understand this without some help.
Thanks for any and all replies.
PHB half elves suck at least Athasian ones inherit the elven grace.
Dwarves sren't any stronger than the average human but are known for their endurance.
I don't like using the basic mods from the phb for athas, athasian races should get better mods because of the harsher world they live in.
I must say i like the halfgiants mods alot. but still i would like to know why the lower mods from one of the templars if possible.
Thanks.
I don't have my 2e Phb to look at the core classes at the moment but the 2e Players guide (ds) shows dwarves +1 str. they are naturally stronger because of a lifetime of hardship and heavy work. they earned it.they also gain a con bonus because of a lifetime of hardwork plus their natural dwarven hardiness.
Elves gain a +1 int because they were (when first created) a smarter more cunning race than humans. they used quick thinking to get out of dangerous situations
Halflings gained a +2 dex so thats fine but they also gained a few other mods.
Aarakocra are listed in the DS3 as having no con penalty but in the ToA they have a -2 con.
i did not look to see any other differances in racial mod for the other listed races. i am not trying to nitpick, its just i started reading through the Downloads and noticed these racial mods and had to ask.
I don't see a +1 or +2 unbalancing the race especially after reading the ToA.
also 2e humans were not broken. they had no level limits, they could become AB's, they could play as almost any class, they had no racial penalties and now they are even better than before with extra feat/skill points. In many ways they were the BEST race to play in Athas because they could gain levels til they died unlike many other races.
i would also like to hear any thoughts on the racial mods for the ToA. what lead you to write them up as you did? Giants all share a +2 dex (understandabe) yet none have even a -1 int, it was my understanding that giants were not as quick thinking or bright as the common human. a -1 int and a +1 wis would work to show they are slower but they do indeed learn and remember.
i would really like to hear from the people who worked on these projects if at all possible. very fine work, but i need help understanding why the mods were done like this.
thanks for any and all replies.
[edit] also wish to say Great Job on the inclusion of fitting Monsters from other guides into DS. i love it!
ok i see your points. it was done for balancing issues is what it breaks down to, but looking through the playable races in ToA and their racial mods the issue of balance kinda flies out the window. Their are playable races with +24 str and +10 (or more) con. I have to say i am impressed with the number of playable races in ToA. Plains giant anyone? Maybe a Braxat?:D
The playable races in ToA also have a very large level adjustment. You pay for that strength modifier in ways that core races don't.
I don't see a +1 or +2 unbalancing the race especially after reading the ToA.
all ability modifiers must be a multiple of 2. There's no such thing as a +1 strength bonus. Otherwise, things like the point buy system get broken.
The playable races in ToA also have a very large level adjustment. You pay for that strength modifier in ways that core races don't.
all ability modifiers must be a multiple of 2. There's no such thing as a +1 strength bonus. Otherwise, things like the point buy system get broken.
ok i get it now. thanks a bunch! its just the 3.5 way of doing things.
thanks for the help!
all ability modifiers must be a multiple of 2. There's no such thing as a +1 strength bonus. Otherwise, things like the point buy system get broken.
Ok i was wrong. I still don't understand. How does an Odd numbered modifer like +1 or +3 upset the point buy system? the Racial Modifiers are applied After the Point Buy numbers are finished being calculated right? So when i am done Buying points and i have a Attribute of X (lets say 18) how does a +1 or +3 or +5 upset the point buy system?
I am still pretty new to the point buy system, matter a fact this is the first time i am looking at it more than a passing glance. so i thank you for your continued patience and understanding. sometimes i am a bit slow to pick things up, other times i catch on quick. so heres hoping!
what was the deciding factor when you guys chose to not grant elves a +2int bonus or dwarves a +2 str bonus?
Why do Thri-kree gain a str bonus in 3.5 when they did not have one in 2e? it almost seems like thrikreen got buffed up while elves and dwarves got nerfed.
also aarakocra have a -2 con mod in the ToA but not in the Ds3, should i include the con mod or not?
Thanks for all the help! seriously thanks!
Ok i get that completely, Thanks! So now that i know why no odd numbered mods on to my other question.:D
No problem.
what was the deciding factor when you guys chose to not grant elves a +2int bonus or dwarves a +2 str bonus?
I'd guess a balancing concern. It could have been a question of whether to give those two races a LA +1 or a LA +0.
Why do Thri-kree gain a str bonus in 3.5 when they did not have one in 2e? it almost seems like thrikreen got buffed up while elves and dwarves got nerfed.
I believe the stat bonuses currently used for Thri-Kreen came from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, but I could be wrong. Also, note that Thri-Kreen have racial Hit Dice and a Level Adjustment (LA) if memory serves. Those seriously counterbalance the race. Especially the Level Adjustment, in my experience.
also aarakocra have a -2 con mod in the ToA but not in the Ds3, should i include the con mod or not?
Got me on that one...
Thanks for all the help! seriously thanks!
No problem.
And the point of level adjustment is to keep the players within the same level range, so are characters with a few levels gap inbetween them just not offical allowed to be played in the same game?
i have not had a chance to get into this detail yet so i really don't know what the rules are for characters in the same game having differant levels. in 2e it was fine. the dm just had to make the game fair and fun for all(not very tough with Roleplay skills and selective rulings) but in 3e the rules are more refined and interlocking for tournament play (metagame and all that mathmatical design)
as a DM does it really matter if one player is level 5 and another is level 7? does starting off with a LA+1 making my new char lvl4 matter that much? i really don't know!
thanks for any and all replies.
ok so a Dwarf or Elf with an additional +2 bonus would require an Level Adjustment of +1? right?
Yes. Any positively unbalanced ability adjustment requires an LA.
To further complicate matters, abilities don't necessarily count the same. The PHB half-orc, for example, has a net-zero ability score balance, because a +2 Str is countered by a -2 to 2 mental stats. This is not communicative. Check page 173 of your DMG for a table of equivalences.
But when we get down to it, your basic gripe/curiosity seems to be why we did not carry over the full range of ability score adjustments from the DS2 races to DS3. It's not (necessarily) about Level Adjustment. It's about Multiple Ability Dependency (MAD). 3e has got it, and got it bad. In 2nd edition, there's a whole range of ability scores that basically meant nothing. For some stats, the range was 7 - 14, with no adjustments, positive or negative. Not so with 3e. Abilities started meaning things at a much earlier point, and that impact is not insignificant. The new, more meaningful, ability adjustments ended up having a significant impact on class viability. Many classes depend on several ability scores; your best case is that the class only depends on two scores. With most races having adjustments to four or five stats, it affected their viability in sometimes dramatic ways. It was especially bad with the first version of Psionics for 3e, which was dependent on every single stat. Bad class design, but the numerous adjustments emphasized it.
Our first versions of DS3 actually had the multiple adjustments. People tested with it, six months to a year (forget how long those were around) ... it just wasn't working out, and that's when we scaled back to two adjusted abilites for most non-adjusted races.
And the point of level adjustment is to keep the players within the same level range, so are characters with a few levels gap inbetween them just not offical allowed to be played in the same game?
The point is to keep your players within the same power range. A level Adjustment slows down the advancement of the adjusted character.
As for whether or not it matters that characters are different levels ... it can have a wildly different effect. If they're different class levels, but the same ECL (Equivalent Character Level) then they're theoretically fine.
The difference between theory and practice is that, in theory, there is no difference.
Creatures with a +1 LA are generally fine. Beyond that, and there are definate problems that crop up, most obviously related to not having enough hit points.
You could run a game with wildly different ECLs in your party. I wouldn't recommend going beyond 2 levels difference, however. Unlike 2nd edition, where certain progressions, such as hit points, leveled off after 10 or 12 levels, 3e keeps going the whole way. Encounter design becomes much more difficult. You'll end up either 1-shotting the lower level players, or being no-challenge-whatsoever to the higher level characters. If you don't have a lot of experience with running the game, I would highly recommend keeping level parity among your players.
Now, all that said, It looks like wizards is ditching level adjustments in 4e; for some of the reasons I touched on above, I'm sure, but also because they've hit on a better way of working in racial differences. Can't say anything about ability adjustments though.
ok so a Dwarf or Elf with an additional +2 bonus would require an Level Adjustment of +1? right?
More or less, yes. I forget what the actual formula/matrix is for figuring it out, but there would need to be some sort of counterbalance in there, Level Adjustment is just one kind of counterbalancing, and one I personally try to avoid when designing things, because I feel it hurts the character a bit, but sometimes, it is all there is left.
And the point of level adjustment is to keep the players within the same level range, so are characters with a few levels gap inbetween them just not offical allowed to be played in the same game?
Like Flip said, it is to keep them within the same power range. If you combine all of the Level Adjustments, racial hit dice, and class levels a character has, you get what is called the "Effective Character Level" or ECL. Two characters with the same ECL should have the same "power level". It is possible to run campaigns where you have a level or two difference between characters in a party, but the wider the gap, the more the lower-level character(s) will be just tagging along in a more secondary capacity, and the more that the higher level character(s) will be doing everything.
i have not had a chance to get into this detail yet so i really don't know what the rules are for characters in the same game having differant levels. in 2e it was fine. the dm just had to make the game fair and fun for all(not very tough with Roleplay skills and selective rulings) but in 3e the rules are more refined and interlocking for tournament play (metagame and all that mathmatical design)
It's mostly fine, and lower-level characters will get a little more XP for things by the rules, so they will technically "catch up" over time, and the gap in levels is less and less noticeable the higher level everyone is. A level 3 character will outclass a level 1 character in a lot of ways, but a level 19 character won't seriously outclass a level 17 one at the same degree. The Thri-Kreen have a starting ECL of 3 if memory serves, that is, combining their racial hit dice and their Level Adjustment, before even adding a single class level (to be a level 1 Fighter, or whatever). As such, a level 1 Fighter Thri-Kreen is roughly equivalent in power to a level 4 Fighter Human. Startig a campaign with a level 1 Thri-Kreen Fighter and a level 1 Human Wizard, that wizard will not really be doing much, and will be seriously outclassed by the Thri-Kreen.
as a DM does it really matter if one player is level 5 and another is level 7? does starting off with a LA+1 making my new char lvl4 matter that much? i really don't know!
It matters a lot at lower levels, and less when you get to higher levels. Personally, I run my campaigns starting at the bare minimum level of the race with the highest starting ECL, which I use a slightly modified Thri-Kreen that forces the starting level for my campaigns to be level 4. It does mean that Human characters get to assign 4 levels to whatever class(es) they desire at the start as well. But this way, I can have everyone more or less start off on equal footing, and it tends to make the campaign go more smoothly.
thanks for any and all replies.
No problem.
i am pretty sure i will just leave the mods the way they are because its begining to make sense so i don't see a reason to change it. i would still kinda like to add a str bonus +2 and then change the dwarves Char pen to -4, but i don't know what would happen long term if i did, so i will just leave it as is until i understand it perfectly.
again thanks a bunch for all the help!
Wow, thanks, i get it now! So IF i ever allow extre racial mods i should try and counterbalance with an equal penalty. +2-2 if i can before resorting to a Level adjustment.
Just understand, all Abilities are not created equal. Basically, if I remember correctly, physical abilities are worth twice what mental ones are. It's in one of the books, I forget which. Been too long since I looked at rules.
i am pretty sure i will just leave the mods the way they are because its begining to make sense so i don't see a reason to change it. i would still kinda like to add a str bonus +2 and then change the dwarves Char pen to -4, but i don't know what would happen long term if i did, so i will just leave it as is until i understand it perfectly.
again thanks a bunch for all the help!
No problem. Just, if you add +2 to str, the Dwarf Cha penalty would be -6 (-2 to start, and then -4 to counterbalance the +2 for str)
Just understand, all Abilities are not created equal. Basically, if I remember correctly, physical abilities are worth twice what mental ones are. It's in one of the books, I forget which. Been too long since I looked at rules.
No problem. Just, if you add +2 to str, the Dwarf Cha penalty would be -6 (-2 to start, and then -4 to counterbalance the +2 for str)
o ok. yea i probably wont add any new mods at all. i just have to get used to 3.5 DS. but i understand how it works a bit better now, the dwarves and elves are fine. it was just the initial shock of how differant things are.
If I remember correctly did not the fighter classes have an extra d4 of str in the 2e darksun? Anyone know why that was taken off?
it was taken off. Classes are a lot more standardized in 3/3.5e rules.
Athas.org is very bare boned. I would recommend getting the original stuff just for fluff and maps. PDFs off RPGnow.come are quite good/cheap as well.
Agreed! Download the originals or better yet, buy the hard copies on ebay, particularly the Wanderer's Journal from the first box set! Our rules and supplements build on that foundation.
Agreed! Download the originals or better yet, buy the hard copies on ebay, particularly the Wanderer's Journal from the first box set! Our rules and supplements build on that foundation.
i got the 2e box set(not revised). wanderers guide, player guide.
i got the city states of gulg and nibenay books and maps (very thin books)
i got slave tribes, The Ivory Triangle, and the hardback DragonKings. and the adventure module (lost somewhere) of blackspine (the gith adventure.)
all 2e.
once i have some cash ( few more months of paying off bills) then sometimes next year i will pick up the pdf downloads at drivethru. and when i can find the printed dead tree versions on ebay.