What ideas do people have for this left over plothook. Someone mentioned a Kreen Dragon which I like and I'm also thinking of huge "Mega Kreen" of around CR 20 which are bio-engineered to be immune to Psionics/Magic and only live a few months- living weapons to use on any inconvenient Sorceror Kings.
Where would the Kreen come from to invade the Tyr region? I'm thinking of a large southern hook to avoid the Halfing jungles and the army to come from the South via Celik. The 1st adventure for the PCs would be likely to be as caravan guards form Blaic/Tyr to Celik where they 21st skirmish with some scouts. The next few adventures will have them in the Celik area and hopefully they can become attached to the place or an NPC or 2 before the Kreen come knocking in a few levels.
Perhaps the Dragon/Kreen is the emperor or defacto ruler of the Kreen and may not even be Kreeen as it wouldn't be to hard for a Dragon of any level/stage to impersonate one.
Personnaly I could see Kreen not going Draconic, but creating their own Advanced Being or Avangion, but that's just me.
One other thing I'd like to see is a full 3.5 up-date on all six sub-species of Kreen (I wish I still had that box set...)
Here's a quick adaptation; think of it as the Tohr-Kreen version of a Mul or Half-Giant.
Athasian Umber Hulk
Size/Type: Large Aberration (Psionic)
Hit Dice: 8d8+35 (71 hp)+16
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20’ (4 sq.), Burrow 20’
Armor Class: 22 (-1 Size, +2 Dex, +11 Natural) Touch 10, Flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Claw +13 melee (2d4+8)
Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (2d4+8) and bite +11 (2d8+4)
Space/Reach: 10’/10’
Special Attacks: Confusing Gaze (as spell, 30’ range. 8th level caster, Will DC:16, CHA Based); Psionics: 3/day- 3 powers, 1/day- 2 power (See the template)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60’, Tremor-sense 60’, Naturally Psionic
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +6
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 15, Con 23, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 15
Skills: Climb +14, Jump +7, Listen +11
Feats: Great Fortitude, Improved Natural Weapon (B) Multiattack, Toughness
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: 9-12 HD (large); 13-24 (huge)
Level Adjustment: ---
I didn't have my Expanded Psi book handy so I didn't pick the psi abilities.
Where would the Kreen come from to invade the Tyr region?
I would say the Si'jidzak
A few miles into the Rift but still near the bottom of the incline, the kreen have built a fortified wall and stronghold they call the Si’jidzak. Literally translated as “the Battle Wall,” the Si’jidzak is made of sand and the exuded resins of slave insects. The wall is nearly 500 feet tall. The sand has been piled and shaped, then coated with a hard, smooth, crystalline material. A rounded building constructed in the same fashion stands against the wall. It’s about 40 feet tall, serving as a silent sentry beside a pair of massive gates.
The Si’jidzak serves two functions. First, it allows the kreen to monitor what gets to enter the Rift, thereby keeping the creatures of the swamp from migrating into the highlands. Second, it serves as a base for exploration teams sent into the highlands to discover the lay of the land. Additionally, the warriors assigned to protect the Battle Wall are also on hand to keep highlanders from invading the Crimson Savanna.
One other thing I'd like to see is a full 3.5 up-date on all six sub-species of Kreen (I wish I still had that box set...)
I have made a write-up of them some time ago... It's on the old MM1 format.
Subraces
The above information describes the jeral thri-kreen, the most common variety in the Tablelands. There are five other major subraces of kreen.
J’ez
This seven-foot-tall, insect-like humanoid has a black carapace, four arms ending in sharp four-fingered claws, and a pair of powerful legs. Its head sprouts two antennae over a pair of compound eyes and a circular, flexible mandible.
J’ez mouths are circular and relatively flexible, with fanglike chitin around the circumference, pointed inward. J’ez usually live in rocky badlands or sandy wastes. J’ez are usually lawful in nature and tend to fill roles as leaders and bureaucrats. They command legions, oversee work details, rule imperial holdings, and perform the administrative functions necessary to keep the kreen empire running smoothly.
J’ez Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the jeral thri-kreen traits, except where noted.
—+4 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. These adjustments replace the jeral thri-kreen’s ability score adjustments.
—No Hide check modifier.
—Favored Class: Psion (egoist). This trait replaces the jeral thri-kreen’s favored class.
J’hol
This seven-foot-tall, insect-like humanoid has a bright red carapace, four arms ending in sharp claws, and a pair of powerful legs. Its head sprouts two long antennae over a pair of compound eyes and snapping mandibles.
J’hol feet are narrow and lack the membrane that gives the other races better stability over sandy terrain. They have the form that most resembles a humanoid. They are the most sedentary kreen race and the ones most used to working metal. They tend to be evil in nature and enjoy watching over gladiatorial contests. J’hol make up the majority of the empire’s military base, though they also make good craftsmen.
J’hol Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the jeral thri-kreen traits, except where noted.
— +2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, -4 Charisma. These adjustments replace the jeral thri-kreen’s ability score adjustments.
—Scent: Its antennae give a j’hol the scent ability. A j’hol can detect opponents by scent within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as fordorran musk, can be detected at triple normal range. When a j’hol detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The j’hol can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. Whenever the j’hol comes within 5 feet of the source, the j’hol pinpoints the source’s location.
— J’hol have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in mountainous or rocky areas. This trait replaces the jeral thri-kreen’s Hide modifier.
—Weapon Familiarity: To j’hol, the kyorkcha is treated as martial rather than exotic weapon. This trait replaces the jeral’s chatkcha familiarity.
—Favored Class: Fighter. This trait replaces the jeral thri-kreen’s favored class.
T’keech
This seven-foot-tall, insect-like humanoid has a mottled green carapace, four arms ending in sharp claws, and a pair of powerful legs. Its head sprouts two antennae over a pair of compound eyes and snapping mandibles.
The t’keech unusual coloration suggests they once live in forest areas. They are rarely nomadic and prefer settling around in scrub plains and oases. In imperial society, they are are the laborers, performing tasks that the other races consider beneath them but that are too complicated for any of the enslaved insectoid races to be trusted with.
T’keech Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the jeral thri-kreen traits, except where noted.
— +4 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. These adjustments replace the jeral thri-kreen’s ability score adjustments.
—T’keech are immune to chitin-rot and respiratory diseases that affect other kreens in humid areas.
—T’keech have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in forest areas. This trait replaces the jeral thri-kreen’s Hide modifier.
—Favored Class: Cleric. This trait replaces the jeral thri-kreen’s favored class.
Tok’sa
This seven-foot-tall, insect-like humanoid has a sandy yellow carapace with a leathery sheeting, four arms ending in sharp four-fingered claws, and a pair of powerful legs. Its head sprouts two vestigial antennae over a pair of compound eyes and snapping mandibles.
Tok’sa are the most aggressive and primitive of all the kreen and also the most nomadic in nature. They are usually chaotic in nature. They’re the shock troops and gladiators of the Kreen Empire. Tok’sa are wanderers in a settled society, barbarians among the civilized kreen. They are nomads and hunters who fill the wilderness between imperial holdings.
Tok’sa Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the jeral thri-kreen traits, except where noted.
— +2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. These adjustments replace the jeral thri-kreen’s ability score adjustments.
—Favored Class: Barbarian. This trait replaces the jeral thri-kreen’s favored class.
Tondi
This seven-foot-tall, insect-like humanoid has a mottled purple carapace, four arms ending in sharp claws, and a pair of powerful legs. Its head sprouts two antennae over a pair of compound eyes and snapping mandibles.
This is the most unusual and rare kreen variant. A tondi looks like an outcropping of rock crystal or a giant ohi flower, a purple flower common in the northern scrub plains. All tondi are female and reproduce through unfertilized eggs that always produce another female. They are loners who have a great love of nature.
Tondi Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the jeral thri-kreen traits, except where noted.
— +4 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. These adjustments replace the jeral thri-kreen’s ability score adjustments.
—No Hide check modifier.
—Favored Class: Druid. This trait replaces the jeral thri-kreen’s favored class.
I would say the Si'jidzak
I meant once they get oast that. Direct line= forest ridge and halflings.
I have made a write-up of them some time ago... It's on the old MM1 format.
Thanks Bruno, but what do you mean "old MM1 format"? Monster Manual 1 - the book I still use as the bases for my gaming work.;)
For some really cool info on zik-chils, check out the Life-Shaping Handbook entry about them.
[/shameless self-promotion]
I think that words of warning about the coming invasion would come from refugees or messangers from these two villages (in my champaign's they are more city sized). After an encounter with the Pterrans I think the Kreens next move would depend on many factors.
Would the Kreen stop for a time and create settlements of their own in the Hinterlands? It is a fairly empty quarter and I could see the Kreen constructing some kind of settlement at the top of the Great Rift to "truly" prepare for an invasion of the Try Region.
I think it would also depend on how much resources the Kreen Empire is committing to this invasion. How large is the Kreen army? What tactics does a large Kreen army employ and who is in command of the invasion? Is it an all out invasion or a strategic strike aimed at specific targets? If the Kreen of the Empire are willing to build a 500 foot "Battle Wall" at the base of the Great Rift then i think it's safe to assume that they are very (Deadly) serious in their quest to invade the highlands!
The Wanderers Chronicle page 100 says that "The Kreen cities and villages closest to the Jagged Cliffs lie on the frontier of the Empire." Given this piece of information one must conclude that the Kreen Empire is quite vast and the Kreen Army heading to the highlands via the Great Rift might be staggering in size, perhaps hundreds of thousands strong. I think it's fairly safe to say that the Kreen invasion army (or the "KIA" bwahahahaha) would make short work of the Pterrans of Lost Scale and Pterran Vale.
As I had said before I don't see the Kreen going through the Forest Ridge to reach the Tablelands. Perhaps some specialist units might do this but I see the Kreen as a whole going around the Forest Ridge and Ringing Mountians. At first I always thought the Kreen would go around the south and attack toward the north but after looking at the maps I noticed something. The Great Rift is situated pretty much smack in in line with the city of Tyr and thusly points almost to the exact centre of the Ringing Mountians. Could a sizable Kreen Army split itself and attack from both North and South? As I don't really see much of an organized resistance to the Kreen invasion I could see this tactic working.
I really like your idea about large Bio Weapons Zardnaar! It reminds me of Tyranid Scythed Hierodules from Warhammer 40000, or any of the Carnifex variants.
Your thoughts?
AZAZEL
[edi] Carnifex rock! Screamer Killers are just so friggin awesome. especially when buffed. (RUN!) (Target ALL weapons and fire!)
Kreen actually created settlements? so its just the tablelander kreen that never settle?
"Civilized" Kreen beyond the Try Region build settlements yes. Thri-Kreen of the Tablelands are nomadic hunting packs that scare the crap out of Player Characters! haha
AZAZEL
"Civilized" Kreen beyond the Try Region build settlements yes. Thri-Kreen of the Tablelands are nomadic hunting packs that scare the crap out of Player Characters! haha
AZAZEL
One of my old Players ran a Thrikreen whom Adopted a young elven child who had lost his memory. the Elf child was given a kreen name and later became the "Elf King" of several elven tribes. He was later assassinated.
Thrikreens are not all savage killing machines. many of them who spend time in the cities and outposts/towns/villages become a bit more civil towards other races. Those who remain in packs are the ones who are a threat.
then again who doesnt like Kreen packs vs Elven Tribes.
Thrikreens are not all savage killing machines. many of them who spend time in the cities and outposts/towns/villages become a bit more civil towards other races. Those who remain in packs are the ones who are a threat.
Duly noted! There are many Kreen who associate with humanoid races and live within their cities, towns, and villages.
AZAZEL
Real question is which is more dangerous. the Desert hunter who kills the rampagers and giants. or the City hunter who kills templar and gladiators and never gets caught!
Heh, totally. Like you DL guys say, it's like the ogre's choice: die fast or die slow :D
Attacking from around the North of the Ring Mountains:
Known information - Urik (the strongest military), Raam and Draj (lots of food supplies for the defenders) all in close proximity to each other.
Attacking from the South side:
Known information - Tyr (it’s small military has the most metal, but the City lack a strong central authority, recently lost major forces to Urik). Also Tyr has no other near-by City-States that may willing or be able to help.
Attacking by going through the Ring Mountains:
Know information - Very little (there are no other Kreen there to infiltrate. Plus there’s the problem with sickness, indigenous beings, and difficult terrain. However, nobody would expect it)
Attacking South by by-passing Western Tablelands:
Known information – Balic (in a well defended location, but is physically cut off from the rest of the Tablelands)
Attacking the Central Tablelands:
Simply too risky.
In my opinion Tyr is the most-likely first major target. It has huge strategic resources (Iron), a weakened military (Destruction of the Crimson Legion), and by now the only City-State without a Sorcerer King to defend it. It has roads directly to three other City-States (Urik, Glug, and Balic). However I could see a large contingent of Kreen going around the north of the mountains – preparing a two pronged attack against Urik, the biggest obstacle that needs to be overcome. Once Tyr falls and possible the defeat of Urik it becomes a countdown to the obliteration of the remaining City-States. After the City-States have been dealt with small groups of Kreen hunt down the last of the “Sleepers” wandering the waists (sundry tribes, villages and refugees).
As for the Pterrians, I’m not sure there would be many refugees – I don’t see them being able to escape a full on Kreen invasion set on gaining a toehold in the high-lands.
I kinda look at the Kreen like Mongols but without the ability to absorb their subject populations. Would the Kreen be interested in ruling non Kreen subjects or is everyone else destied to be food (genocide).
I would also imagine not all imperial Kreen would be pro invasion or pro extintion towards other races.
Que Two Towers Requiem for a Dream Score
Opening scene; Still images of the Kreen meeting the EK and the EK's past with his war with the Cleansing Armies. He won, but his people suffered to great, his city was ruined.
Animation begins; Following many, many Kreen footprints in the desert leading to the Forest Ridge, passing the remains of eaten animals.
Ogo devoured; A halfling "Gift" party finds Ogo abandoned with only the bones of the halflings scattered. Their flesh picked clean. (the Kreen are like a swarm of locusts).
The Ringing Mountain Pass; Uruk forts burn as the Kreen smashed through there.
Catching up to the Kreen Army; The camera passes a massive amount of dust and then the Kreen army can be seen. It strentches for miles and fills the view in all directions.
The Fall of Uruk; a noblemen, inspecting his crops, sees the vast Kreen army and retreats on his Erdlu. He doens't go towards the city, he just runs around it. The city sees the swarm of Kreen and prepares, but the Kreen are too many. City View shot: Camera overlooking the city, the Kreen Army, which is about three times the size of the city itself, simply swarm the walls in all direction, and swarm the city itself. Hammanu fights off powerful summoned elements, but is ultimately and quickly defeated by the EK. His body is given to the Kreen for food and within 30 minutes, the city is taken and all the inhabitants are dead.
Gulg and Nibenay: Camera flys along the desert to Nibenay. The gates up, leading the way, Nibenay himself leads and army with Gulg's help to meet the Kreen swarm.
The Final Battle: Raam and Draj have joined forces and they are fortifying Raam. Off in the distence, the Kreen can be seen alone with the Gulg/Nibenay army comming to meet them. As the battle is about to start, a shadow covers Raam and it's Dregoth and his army of undead dragons to fight the Kreen.
Who will win? That's not known.
As for the fate of the Tablelanders, it's Dark Sun for crying out loud - Slaves, food stock, and a few properly indoctrinated intermediaries (can we say brain-wash).
The only real saving grace I can see is the combine effort of all the Tableland’s Kreen tribes. It happened once before with the Thri-Kreen City of Riik-kek (see page 76 of the “Thri-Kreen of Athas” for more information). It becomes a time for Hunters to hunt the Hunters.
Ral - WOW thats got some powerful visuals to it... I like how you discribe the Kreen dealing with the walls of Urik.
One of the things that always gets me about the Kreen invasion plotlines tossed around is that there are are rarely solid reasons given for the Kreen Empire to commit the resources to an extended struggle so far from their homelands.
What is the background? Why are the Kreen invading? What is their objective? Answers to that would also determine exactly how many resources the Kreen would commit to the enterprise, their plan of invasion (such as direction entering from) and so forth.
Hey Zardnaar,
One of the things that always gets me about the Kreen invasion plotlines tossed around is that there are are rarely solid reasons given for the Kreen Empire to commit the resources to an extended struggle so far from their homelands.
What is the background? Why are the Kreen invading? What is their objective? Answers to that would also determine exactly how many resources the Kreen would commit to the enterprise, their plan of invasion (such as direction entering from) and so forth.
ANy reason whats so ever,. Population groth, desire for expansion,religeous reasons, etc.
The plot was that basically a 30th level Element-king from the Greenage awakens and uses the Kreen as a mechanism for revenge against the SKs.
Pretty much what I had planned, but instead of an elemental-king from the Green Age I was going to have a rhulisti nature-bender from the Blue Age manipulating the kreen in order to establish the halflings as the rightful rulers of Athas.
Anyway, my point is, I think the Kreen are all hot to invade so they don't end up having to face a force of undead too big for them to handle, and the Tablelands just happen to be a convenient rest stop on the way.
Maybe the Kreen somehow became aware of the threat of the Deadlands.
Hrm, I likes it. Mainly because it means the Kreen can't be negotiated with, at all. It's kill or be killed, period. Nothing less than survival or extermination.
And it brings up issues of racism: who is going to trust any Kreen at that point? And the civilized Kreen aren't going to look on their barbarian kin with anything but contempt. The wild Kreen of the tablelands are stuck.
And the Deadlands? A major war to the north -- might all the death and destruction disturb the Undead Lords, or might those fleeing from the Kreen armies fall into their hands? Suddenly, it becomes a two-front war. Or do the Kreen band together with their enemies instead of renewing their push to slaughter the humanoids of the Tablelands?
Heh. And when the Kreen mine their conquered Obsidian lands too deeply, they crack open the portal to the plane of Magma, and pay for their treachery with extermination :D
maybe the spirits of the deadlands (if there are any) are trying to wipe out the undead, and using an ally, they have formed a pact with the kreen. they hope to seal the portal and heal the land.
i like the ele king aspect. but i don't like the idea of the tablelands being wiped out completely, no more SK's means a very differant DS which makes me nervious.
Maybe the Order is using the Kreen to eliminate renegade psionicists found in the tablelands.
Maybe the Planar gate of Dregoth somehow calls out to the kreen, yet the kreen do not know where it is, so they swarm the tablelands searching for the source.
maybe some of the roaming agents of the SK's traveled into kreen lands and were captured. Kreen telepaths then read their minds and discover the SK's looking for new resources and the kreen lands are not as barren as the tablelands. in an effort to preserve their homeland from any threat they band together and commit to a sneak attack on the tablelands.
i dont know, just some thoughts.
Heh. And when the Kreen mine their conquered Obsidian lands too deeply, they crack open the portal to the plane of Magma, and pay for their treachery with extermination :D
Hrm. I just thought of a great way to tie the Frostburn-style future Dark Sun I detailed some time back into this...
It's nearly the same, but I believe better than them being turned into kreen as a punishment, and more tragic. Like an alien race biologically modifying itself too extensively until they cause a fatal flaw whose effects have too many ramifications...and they die out within a couple of generations, unable to reverse the process.
Hey Zardnaar,
One of the things that always gets me about the Kreen invasion plotlines tossed around is that there are are rarely solid reasons given for the Kreen Empire to commit the resources to an extended struggle so far from their homelands.
What is the background? Why are the Kreen invading? What is their objective? Answers to that would also determine exactly how many resources the Kreen would commit to the enterprise, their plan of invasion (such as direction entering from) and so forth.
They would do it to find out and stop the Tablelands from doing to them what happened when the Psionatrix was used. While psionics was nulled, Kreen went crazy... Image the chaos of the empire where they all went loco. Now imagine them being ok with that again when Dregoth's Godhood spell goes off and cuts off Elemental Magic. How long do we really think other parts of the world are going to do nothing while the few players in the tablelands do world changing things. Even if the range of the Psionatrix was small, it would still have affected as far out into the Kreen Empire as Dragon's Crown is from Ur Draxa. I'd say that's the whole thing.
I'd say stopping people who don't know you exist from messing with your way of life is a pretty strong reason. They don't care about you, so why care about them?
To continue the conversation from the Closed thread....I'm a bit against (a bit, mind you) the zik'chil being former nature-benders "cursed" into their form by the victorious nature-masters. It would be better, IMO, to go with Cliff's idea that the nature benders were exiled or something, and they took over the kreen, and modified themselves over the generations so they could match the shape of those they ruled, until the day too many modifications led to them becoming true kreen and losing their rhulisti racial type.
I like this as well minus the nature-benders changing themselves into Zik'Chil. I prefer the theory of that the nature-bender created the Zik'Chil from primitive kreen for the purpose of using the Chil to assist them in their life-bending experiments. They would have imparted a fraction of their life-bending knowledge into the Chil which would explain why the Kreen Empire isn't teeming with life-shaped technology.
This would also explain why the kreen are so determined to reach the halflings of the Jagged Cliffs. Their racial memory could be driving them to eradicate the ancestors of the beings that once enslaved them. Furthermore, the Zik'Chil could also be seeking to capture the secrets of life-shaping that they perceive the rul-thaun having access to.
They would do it to find out and stop the Tablelands from doing to them what happened when the Psionatrix was used. While psionics was nulled, Kreen went crazy... Image the chaos of the empire where they all went loco. Now imagine them being ok with that again when Dregoth's Godhood spell goes off and cuts off Elemental Magic. How long do we really think other parts of the world are going to do nothing while the few players in the tablelands do world changing things. Even if the range of the Psionatrix was small, it would still have affected as far out into the Kreen Empire as Dragon's Crown is from Ur Draxa. I'd say that's the whole thing.
I'd say stopping people who don't know you exist from messing with your way of life is a pretty strong reason. They don't care about you, so why care about them?
This is a very good point. Lets not forget the Great Quake that caused the Great Rift to open up. I'm pretty sure that caused some massive damage throughout the Kreen Empire. Talk about stirring up a bees nest.
I second that!
Mmm, the idea that the zik are not ancient rhulisti is a good and logical idea, based on your "the region is not teeming with life shapes" argument.
I second that!
The only explanation for that would be they gave up life-shaping to completely emerge themselves into the life-bending arts. Thats highly improbable IMO. I doubt that this knowleged would have been willingly forgotten by the nature-benders/zik'chil.
Have you seen the zik-trin? Or the numerous altered insects mentioned in TKoA? That's nature-bending hard at work! ;)
Yes, but why would they not utilizie life-shaping in tantum with life-bending? To spite the long dead nature-masters? It makes no sense.
On a similar note, since nature-bending is, IIRC, the act of manipulating the structure of a pre-existing life form, wouldn't the halfling who became the Last Tree technically be a nature bender?
Also, if the Zik'Chil were nature-bent halflings, why would they have access to racial memories that are innate in Kreen only?
Where is this mentioned? All I know is that kreen have racial memory of the zik-chil (as they have of avangions and Ka'Cha), not the other way around.
On a similar note, since nature-bending is, IIRC, the act of manipulating the structure of a pre-existing life form, wouldn't the halfling who became the Last Tree technically be a nature bender?
Technically, the act of the Rebirth could be considered life-bending.
Well, they no longer had access to the basic components required for life-shaping (pith, facilities, etc) after their bodies were altered and they were banished. So they adapted as well as their techniques.
So, they had no access to life-shaping but the nature-masters left them with the components to continue life-bending? The crime that they were turned into Zik'chil for in the first place?
So they had no access to life-shaping but the nature-masters left them with the components to continue life-bending? The crime that they were turned into Zik'chil for in the first place?
I see what Bruno is getting at.
Life-shaping requires skill and an inert organic medium, like pith, while life-bending requires skill and a living being as a medium.
Devoid of the facilities and materials necessary for life-shaping, the exiles would have been limited to life-bending. Makes sense.
Bruno, do you actually mention these things in LSH?
So, they had no access to life-shaping but the nature-masters left them with the components to continue life-bending? The crime that they were turned into Zik'chil for in the first place?
The nature-masters must have reckonned that, without the resources to wage war toe to toe with them (i.e. very advanced lifeshapes), the nature-benders would be easily defeated would they ever cause trouble again.
Current kreen empire vs ancient nature-master dominion = dead kreen, for sure
I see what Bruno is getting at.
Life-shaping requires skill and an inert organic medium, like pith, while life-bending requires skill and a living being as a medium.
Devoid of the facilities and materials necessary for life-shaping, the exiles would have been limited to life-bending. Makes sense.
Bruno, do you actually mention these things in LSH?
The problem with that is why would the nature-masters let them continue to life-bend? It was heinous enough crime to punish them by turning them into a zik'chil, but not enough to erase the knowledge of life-bending from their minds? Even if it was beyond the nature-master's ability to alter their memories, do you really think that they wouldn't be carefully monitoring the former nature-benders' activities knowing full well that they could resort to life-bending once more?
Other than the irony of using life-bending to bend their form into that of a kreen, isn't it rather amoral, if not hypocritical of the nature-masters to resort to issuing this sort of punishment? From what we know of them this seems a rather un-nature-master thing to dole out.
Same with halflings.
History is full of instances were people should have been killed for their crimes, or for the greater good of all, but weren't. That's due to politics, poetics, human reasoning, bla bla.
Same with halflings.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't really explain away the inconsistences of nature-benders being changed into zik'chil and then being allowed to continue life-bending. To many loopholes are left open.
The nature-masters must have reckonned that, without the resources to wage war toe to toe with them (i.e. very advanced lifeshapes), the nature-benders would be easily defeated would they ever cause trouble again. Punishing someone and leaving them with the unhindered ability to commit the same crime again doesn't seem like that an advanced society would over look.
Current kreen empire vs ancient nature-master dominion = dead kreen, for sure
Doesn't jive with the fact that they would go through the trouble changng their form to that of a kreen-like creature but not rob them of the ability that landed the nature-benders in trouble in the first place.
If the nature-masters were that unconcerned with the zik'chil being able to rise up against them again in the furture the former nature-benders would have been able to continue life-shaping as well as life-bending.
Where is this mentioned? All I know is that kreen have racial memory of the zik-chil (as they have of avangions and Ka'Cha), not the other way around.
In Thri-Kreen of Athas, it states that Zik-Chil can manipulate their own enzymes, because they hgave access to racial memories that show them how.
Thri-Kreen of Athas, p. 79 -
In many ways, the zik-chil are throwbacks to ancient kreen.
They retain the ability (through their racial memory) to manipulate
their own enzymes, and the ability to rebuild and augment
living beings. Zik-chil transform kreen into zik-trin. The cold
mentality of the zik-chil also set them apart from other mantis
people; they are unemotional and ruthless in their pursuits.
I interpret this passage as clearly stating that Zik-Chil are of Kreen ancestry, and their abilities are due to racial memory, which is also a component of Kreen ancestry, and not a trait which Rhulisti, Rhul-Than, or feral halflings possess/ Enzyme manipulation is mentioned frequently in Thri-Kreen of Athas as the means by which the Kreen produce venom, and also the enzymes trugger racial memories in Kreen concerning everything from the construction of Dasl weapons to hunting behaviors. Enzyme manipulation and racial memories are innate components of Kreen development, the Zik-Chil just are capable of doing it to a more refined degree. There is nothing in the material , at least that I can perceive, that even hints at Rhulist intervention in Kreen development, and in fact, much evidence to the contrary.
As Sysane pointed out it doesn't make sense provinding one ignores the retcon for no good reason story in the LSH.
If (and big if) the Zik Chil are former Halflings I would say a handful of nature benders turned themselves into Kreen to escape the Nature Masters and in the process lost most of their knowledge so would have no racial memories of being Halflings and lost most of their arts as well..
In the primary 2nd ed source books (revised boxed set)it was mentioned that Kreen couldn't use various NAture Master technologies but rebirth races could. Since Zik-Chil were in TKoA one would assume they could use such toys if Zik-Chil were indeed former nature benders.
More likely perhaps the Zik-Chil were an advanced Kreen species and may have observed Halflings using their arts and emulated a few of the. Do Kreen have racial memories of the Blue Age?
There is nothing in the material , at least that I can perceive, that even hints at Rhulist intervention in Kreen development, and in fact, much evidence to the contrary.
While I feel there's much that contradicts nature-benders being zik'chil, there's nothing that eliminates the possibility that the rhulisti may have altered the kreen in the past. The term "ancient kreen" doesn't necessarily equate to meaning "the original kreen".
In the primary 2nd ed source books (revised boxed set)it was mentioned that Kreen couldn't use various NAture Master technologies but rebirth races could. Since Zik-Chil were in TKoA one would assume they could use such toys if Zik-Chil were indeed former nature benders.
Where exactly does it state that kreen can't utilize life-shapes? PAoA?
Doesn't jive with the fact that they would go through the trouble changng their form to that of a kreen-like creature but not rob them of the ability that landed the nature-benders in trouble in the first place.
It would indeed require for the N-Ms to exile the N-Bs wholesome, and it would be the N-Bs - on their own - that would change their own shape. perhaps in an act of spite for the form of their victors, renoucing totally the whole of N-M civilization.
While I feel there's much that contradicts nature-benders being zik'chil, there's nothing that eliminates the possibility that the rhulisti may have altered the kreen in the past. The term "ancient kreen" doesn't necessarily equate to meaning "the original kreen".
Yeah, the racial memory refering to earlier times might be refering to a time period when ancient kreens encountered and were modified by N-Bs.
Is the life shaping handbbook regarded as "official" canon now?
As Sysane pointed out it doesn't make sense provinding one ignores the retcon for no good reason story in the LSH.
Yeah, let's trash the entire book, a few wrong lines are way too much. /heavy sarcasm
All athas.org products are open for retconing, as you call it, if in the future some incompatibility issues are encountered.
For example, if the books are ever updated a second time, people might add magic/psionic items from the AE. This makes it a simple retcon, but I've seen many major ones happen during the writing (make that 3E adaptation) of Dregoth Ascending.
If there's a major outcry because of these few lines, I'm sure Bruno will propose alternatives at some point.
It would indeed require for the N-Ms to exile the N-Bs wholesome, and it would be the N-Bs - on their own - that would change their own shape. perhaps in an act of spite for the form of their victors, renoucing totally the whole of N-M civilization.
Thats a mighty big stretch, but it could have played out that way but feel that it was very unlikely.
This mediocre movie eventually reveals...
*SPOILERS*
...that the bad guys and good guys are the same people. These nearly immortal people had children who rebelled, became adults, went away, changed themselves, all due to spite, and eventually returned with superior tech in the hope of cruching their...parents' idillic civilization.
You say it'sa stretch, but it's an old idea that I didn't invent, or even Star Trek did. It's probably as old as the oldest greek tales.
The problem with that is why would the nature-masters let them continue to life-bend? It was heinous enough crime to punish them by turning them into a zik'chil, but not enough to erase the knowledge of life-bending from their minds? Even if it was beyond the nature-master's ability to alter their memories, do you really think that they wouldn't be carefully monitoring the former nature-benders' activities knowing full well that they could resort to life-bending once more?
Other than the irony of using life-bending to bend their form into that of a kreen, isn't it rather amoral, if not hypocritical of the nature-masters to resort to issuing this sort of punishment? From what we know of them this seems a rather un-nature-master thing to dole out.
So is the Rebirth. Here is my take on why.
The Kreen of the Blue Age weren't even sentient. I forget where I read this, maybe the WC history written by the Wanderer. So, it wouldn't have occurred to them that they were doing anything wrong. It's the same thing as what happened countless times here in the Real World, and also during the CW. They didn't think of the Kreen at the time as really people, so it didn't really cross their moral mind. The Rhulisti strike me as a people who are prone to some feats of Arrogance on a large scale. Even deciding to double the output of the seas is arrogant.
Just because a theme has been used before doesn't necessarily make it a logical or ideal concept.
So is the Rebirth. Here is my take on why.
The Kreen of the Blue Age weren't even sentient. I forget where I read this, maybe the WC history written by the Wanderer. So, it wouldn't have occurred to them that they were doing anything wrong. It's the same thing as what happened countless times here in the Real World, and also during the CW. They didn't think of the Kreen at the time as really people, so it didn't really cross their moral mind. The Rhulisti strike me as a people who are prone to some feats of Arrogance on a large scale. Even deciding to double the output of the seas is arrogant.
You lost me on this. What does the primative kreen have to do with punishing the nature-benders by turning them into zik'chil? I can see them being arrogant but not to the point of stupidity.
I have a whole theory based on the Rhulisti using the kreen as a slave race early in the Blue Age due to viewing as being no better than animals. So, yeah I can see them making mistakes but not erroneous lapses in judgement or commonsense regarding the nature-benders and leaving them the means to continue life-bending. If this were the case, what was stopping them from reversing the process used to turn them into zik'chil and change themselves back into Rhulisti?
Their reliance on genetic memory for everything is their own effective downfall, since it is flawed, and erodes a little generation after generation, the oldest of memories become fuzzy, faded, or simply disappear completely. The Zik-Chil no longer remember who or what they were, and what their original goals were. The Kreen Empire, once the military of the Nature Benders built to overthrow and reclaim their "rightful lands" of the Tablelands/Tyragi region, now is an expansionistic empire of Kreen, driven to expand, particularly toward the Tablelands, in a complusary manner, without knowing or remembering the particular reason why they are doing it any more, other than just to expand the reaches of the Empire in all directions.
At least, that's how I see it, for my own campaigns. The Tohr-Kreen Empire today is the by product of what the Nature Benders had devised. While the Tablelands went through the Green Age and the Age of the Sorcerer-Kings, the Crimson Savannah went through its own history of building, advancing, and slowly forgetting its original purpose and goals, or even its original identity. I believe that originally, the Kreen were not sentient -- they were simply a largish insectoid predator. but that the Rhulisti Nature Benders modified them to suit their own purposes, and in turn modified themselves to "improve" themselves based on the positive qualities they found in the Kreen. They don't keep written records of any kind of who or what they are or how to do anything, becoming completely reliant on genetic memory, which was flawed and now... they are the Torh-Kreen Empire it is today, with absolutely no record of who they once were -- the Nature Benders wrote themselves out of history.
Maybe the zic'chil can order an attack on Tyr Region in order to "assimilate" its life forms into the continuum of the Kreen Empire as well. ;)
LOL! Resistance is futile faced with Sysane's arguments. We will all be assimilated to his way of thinking.
I have a whole theory based on the Rhulisti using the kreen as a slave race early in the Blue Age due to viewing as being no better than animals.
I believe the ancient nature-masters were meant, thematically, to be enlightened. Thousands of years of history, progress, bounty, etc. They chose to create animals of burden, tailored to their needs, instead of using actual animals.
I don't see them enslaving or using in any way, outside of nature-bending, any of the natural animals of Athas at the time, kreen included.
If enslavement there was, it was perpetrated by the nature-benders.
I tend to work with the idea that the Zik-Chil were originally Nature Benders. They found the Kreen species, and modified them into their footsoldiers and whatnot. Meanwhile, they modified/altered themselves over the years to be closer and closer-resembling their soldier-species, mainly trying to gain what they saw as benefits of that species themselves. The Kreen had a racial memory, and the Zik-Chil also gave themselves the same kind of genetic memory. The problem is... the genetic memory isn't flawless. It has broken down over the millenia. At some point, the Zik-Chil have forgotten who they were -- the racial memory has become clouded, for the Kreen and for the Zik-Chil. The two are extraordinarily similar now, to the point of basically being the same species (of sorts), but still with their differences (like the more articulate hand-appendages for the Zik-Chil, they are smaller, more fragile-looking, if memory serves). The modern Zik-Chil could easily believe themselves as being "throwbacks" to ancient Kreen, the two groups would see themselves as the modern races they are now, not what they were in the Blue and Green Age time periods.
Their reliance on genetic memory for everything is their own effective downfall, since it is flawed, and erodes a little generation after generation, the oldest of memories become fuzzy, faded, or simply disappear completely. The Zik-Chil no longer remember who or what they were, and what their original goals were. The Kreen Empire, once the military of the Nature Benders built to overthrow and reclaim their "rightful lands" of the Tablelands/Tyragi region, now is an expansionistic empire of Kreen, driven to expand, particularly toward the Tablelands, in a complusary manner, without knowing or remembering the particular reason why they are doing it any more, other than just to expand the reaches of the Empire in all directions.
At least, that's how I see it, for my own campaigns. The Tohr-Kreen Empire today is the by product of what the Nature Benders had devised. While the Tablelands went through the Green Age and the Age of the Sorcerer-Kings, the Crimson Savannah went through its own history of building, advancing, and slowly forgetting its original purpose and goals, or even its original identity. I believe that originally, the Kreen were not sentient -- they were simply a largish insectoid predator. but that the Rhulisti Nature Benders modified them to suit their own purposes, and in turn modified themselves to "improve" themselves based on the positive qualities they found in the Kreen. They don't keep written records of any kind of who or what they are or how to do anything, becoming completely reliant on genetic memory, which was flawed and now... they are the Torh-Kreen Empire it is today, with absolutely no record of who they once were -- the Nature Benders wrote themselves out of history.
I really like this.
I believe the ancient nature-masters were meant, thematically, to be enlightened. Thousands of years of history, progress, bounty, etc. They chose to create animals of burden, tailored to their needs, instead of using actual animals.
I don't see them enslaving or using in any way, outside of nature-bending, any of the natural animals of Athas at the time, kreen included.
If enslavement there was, it was perpetrated by the nature-benders.
I view it that the rhulisti (perhaps early nature-benders) altered the primative kreen in order to preform the mundane tasks for rhulisti society. Centuries later the kreen, now enlightened, may have begun to question their existence and their subservient roles, which in turn, led to their eventual revolt.
Sympathetic rhulisti (the eventual nature-masters) may have championed their cause and petitioned for freeing the kreen and recognize them as sentient creatures. This could have devolved into the eventual division of the rhulisti into the nature-benders and nature-masters.
I really like this.
I agree with everything other than the nature-benders being the zik'chil themselves. They may have altered kreen to become zik'chil, but don't feel that they would have altered their rhulisti form based upon that of a "lesser creature". It comes back to the arrogance factor previously mentioned.
I agree with everything other than the nature-benders being the zik'chil themselves. They may have altered kreen to become zik'chil, but don't feel that they would have altered their rhulisti form based upon that of a "lesser creature". It comes back to the arrogance factor previously mentioned.
You don't think that arrogance could have made them try to improve on themselves with the "positives" of the Kreen Race that they may have liked -- the convenience of genetic memory, the added protection of an exoskeleton, the extra arms, with a modification for added articulation, possibly better sensory awareness with the antennae, etc? We're talking a group of Rhulisti which seemed to be big on the whole genetic modification thing. And what's more arrogant -- simply modifying others, or modifying themselves believing that they could make themselves even better?
The kreen—as the halflings call them—are seen as evil, insidious monsters with no relation whatever to the halflings or life and its sanctity. Somehow, the halfling mind-set holds that the thri-kreen existed apart from the rhulisti and the nature that they mastered.
For example, spies have learned that beyond the empire of the kreen lies a body of water that may even be larger than the swamp.
We are now in the Brown Times, the age of our kind, when the world is dry. The kreen are matchless in the dry times. Long ago, were the Blue Times, when the world was new, and there was water everywhere, so much water that it appeared blue. The kreen of the Blue Time lived on pieces of land that floated in the water. It is said that early kreen had great, gossamer wings, which they used to fly between the pieces of land. They knew nothing of tools and building, but even then they hunted. In that age were only kreen and animals, and a few plants, on the pieces of land. Then, so slowly that no one could notice until it had already happened, the water went away. The pieces of land grew roots, and the roots grew together, until land covered most of the world, and water stood in only a few places. Plants grew in profusion over the new land. This was the Green Time. During the Green Time, more animals were born, and hunting was good. The kreen, able to travel to more of the world, discovered wondrous animals, kinds they could not have imagined.
During the Green Time, the kreen, much to their surprise, met mammals who could talk. Not quite kreen, they became known as dra-trin, the sleepers-like-people. Now we call them dra, and we reserve the term term for those who are more similar to kreen. The dra were small, but they, over time, gave rise to larger dra, and the many kinds of dra filled their part of the world. To resist the many races of dra, the kreen had to learn new skills. It was during the Green Time that kreen learned the way of fighting with the mind, and with weapons. The kreen fought, and they built, and they learned to change themselves to become better warriors and hunters. They survived.
Then came the beginning of the Brown Time, when dra turned on dra, and they used terrible forces on one another. These killed many plants and animals, and the world withered and turned brown. Hunting became poor, but the kreen were wise and skilled, and they could find prey where no others could. And the kreen became more numerous and more powerful, and formed great nations. The kreen of these before-times built cities, and they made beings of power as well. Many kreen were found in the world. Some stayed in the north, while others went south, to live among the dra who were left, to work with them and share knowledge with them.
In the now-times, still part of the Brown Time, there are still many kreen in the world. In the south, the dra turned against the kreen offer of peace, and the nations of the kreen fell. The kreen of the south, where you live, run free, caring for little but the hunt, living near the dra. And to the north? Well, you would be surprised at the kreen of the north . . .
the history of the kreen,
as told by Klik-Cheka’da
zik-trin’ta, tohr-kreen scout
Though his perspective is skewed toward the kreen point of view, Klik'’s telling of history is essentially a true one. Long ago, the planet of Athas was covered with water, the non-kreen races call this time the Blue Age, and during that time the halflings had a great and powerful civilization. However, most people do not realize that kreen— - the mantis people, usually called by their more specific names, thri-kreen and tohr-kreen,— lived during
that age as well. During the Blue Age, the kreen were primitive, their development stunted by their environment. The Blue Age ended and the waters retreated, largely due to the actions of the ancient halflings. Plants grew, and all manner of life spread across the surface of Athas. The kreen met the halflings, as well as many of the races that sprang from the halflings, among them dwarves, elves, humans, and giants. The kreen evolved, they developed weapons and a civilization. They honed their mental powers, and many became masters of the Way. Then came the Time of Magic, the age of Rajaat and of the Cleansing Wars he launched to eliminate the offshoots of the halfling race.
The kreen did not study magic, nor were they a part of the Cleansing Wars. Because they were not descended from halflings, Rajaat saw the kreen as little more than animals. At the end of the Cleansing Wars, Rajaat was imprisoned by his champions, who then became the Sorcerer Kings of those lands later called the Tyr Region. For a time, during the Cleansing Wars, the kreen lived in peace with some of the non-kreen peoples, but the ascension of the Sorcerer Kings ended that peace. The kreen of the Tyr Region became the nomadic hunters known as thri-kreen, the mantis warriors.
_____________End of Quote_____________________
This official source says flat-out that the Kreen and the Halflings didn't meet, at all, until the Green Age. It also states that the Kreen didn't begin to learn to make weapons and alter themselves until the early Green Age. This clearly states that they figured this out on their own, and it states later in Thri-Kreen of Athas that only the Zik-Chil remember how to do this, which is in the same passage where it refers to them as being like "throwbacks" to the ancient Kreen. There is just a lot of evidence, from both the Rhul-Than and Kreen perspectives, that the Kreen and every other race did not have contact until the Green Age, and that the Kreen evolved all of their own knowledge and traits, and are not the product of Rhulisti intervention.
From Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs, p. 72 -
The kreen—as the halflings call them—are seen as evil, insidious monsters with no relation whatever to the halflings or life and its sanctity. Somehow, the halfling mind-set holds that the thri-kreen existed apart from the rhulisti and the nature that they mastered.
Many of the views of the modern Cliff halflings are different from those of the rhulisti. This comes from having lived in a post-Rebirth world where things are far different from what they were before.
AFAIK, only broadly after the Rebirth did the kreen create empires and rise to intelligence, since Jagged Cliffs describes their Blue Age ancestors as mindless. Thus, only the Cliff halflings would have encountered intelligent kreen, and developped such an opinion of them.
This official source says flat-out that the Kreen and the Halflings didn't meet, at all, until the Green Age. It also states that the Kreen didn't begin to learn to make weapons and alter themselves until the early Green Age. This clearly states that they figured this out on their own, and it states later in Thri-Kreen of Athas that only the Zik-Chil remember how to do this, which is in the same passage where it refers to them as being like "throwbacks" to the ancient Kreen. There is just a lot of evidence, from both the Rhul-Than and Kreen perspectives, that the Kreen and every other race did not have contact until the Green Age, and that the Kreen evolved all of their own knowledge and traits, and are not the product of Rhulisti intervention.
QFT.
Best post on the topic. No need to retcon this already clear and decent canon.
Many of the views of the modern Cliff halflings are different from those of the rhulisti. This comes from having lived in a post-Rebirth world where things are far different from what they were before.
AFAIK, only broadly after the Rebirth did the kreen create empires and rise to intelligence, since Jagged Cliffs describes their Blue Age ancestors as mindless. Thus, only the Cliff halflings would have encountered intelligent kreen, and developped such an opinion of them.
But, if you read my quote from Thri-Kreen of Athas, there is clearly stated, from the eye-in-the-sky, omniscient author's perspective, that what the Kreen remember is true, that the Kreen never met the halflings or rebirth races until the early Green Age, and it seems to state that Kreen racial memory goes back to the Blue Age. Again, this is from the author/DM perspective, not a one-sided, in-game perspective.
I really believe that the reason there are statements saying there was NO interaction between Kreen and Halflings in both TKoA and WotJC is to prevent people from making the assumption that the Kreen arts of body modification were derived from Halfling knowledge.
Also, it states in Thri-Kreen of Athas, p. 3, that the Kreen were primitive, not mindless.It says that the change from Blue Age to Green Age happened so slowly, they barely noticed it until it was finished. Mindless creatures wouldn't take note of such a thing, and especially would not put it against the backdrop of a perception of time. Also, if they were not sentient, thay wouldn't have any memory of these events. And since the other races never met them before the Green Age, they wouldn't have learned about their ancestors being winged from any other race. All of these clues point to an oral history going back to the Blue Age, supplemented by racial memory.
Again, I have to respectfully re-iterate, all official, original material seems to go to some lengths to make it clear that the Kreen developed their form, culture, skills and knowledge independently from the other races. There is absolutely no evidence to the contrary. The Nature Benders had been wiped out long before the Kreen independently developed their body-alteration abilities.
This official source says flat-out that the Kreen and the Halflings didn't meet, at all, until the Green Age. It also states that the Kreen didn't begin to learn to make weapons and alter themselves until the early Green Age.
No conflict of interest there at all.
This clearly states that they figured this out on their own, and it states later in Thri-Kreen of Athas that only the Zik-Chil remember how to do this, which is in the same passage where it refers to them as being like "throwbacks" to the ancient Kreen.
Still, no conflict of interest. There is no explanation in what you quoted about the origins of the Zik-Chil. They sort of just "show up". If, let's say, the Nature Benders were thrown out the Tyragi region/area near the end of the Blue Age, and then they encountered the Kreen in the early Green Age, there is no conflict at all with the text you provided above. I believe it was the Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs that suggests the Jagged Cliffs were raised to provide a line of defense against the Nature Benders (or something like that) -- I'd need to dig out my books again to find where.
So, if the Nature Benders find the Kreen, in the more barbaric state the Kreen where in (by the words from Thri-Kreen of Athas, it defines them as a barbaric race at that time), and then their influence helps the Kreen become able to start learning how to develop such things as weapons and tools (a little bit of manipulation to the Kreen species results in the Kreen figuring it out "on their own"), meanwhile, the Nature Benders stay separate from the Kreen, to watch their little "science experiment" in action, the Kreen develop, and advance into a civilization. The Nature Benders, intrigued by the rapid advancement, and the benefits of much of the Kreen's natures results in them adapting themselves (this is a group that is claimed to be proficient at manipulating, or bending nature) to be more Kreen-like, and eventually integrate themselves into the Kreen culture as the Zik-Chil (which, like I said, seem to just materialize in the Kreen history with no real explanation). They enjoy the benefits of things like the genetic memory (who needs to spend the time training any more, the Zik-Chil, like the Kreen are all born with the knowledge passed down genetically from their parents).
There is just a lot of evidence, from both the Rhul-Than and Kreen perspectives, that the Kreen and every other race did not have contact until the Green Age, and that the Kreen evolved all of their own knowledge and traits, and are not the product of Rhulisti intervention.
There is evidence to suggest that the Kreen, to their knowledge, did such a thing. But if you are a barbaric race, and suddenly start to develop the ability to use and understand tools -- not programmed or taught by another race, but rather you are "gifted" with the ability to expand your knowledge and capabilities, to you, it would seem like your race did it all on your own. Like I said before, there is no explanation or history for the Zik-Chil. They are described as being kind of different-looking than the Kreen -- if I remember correctly, somewhat pale (slightly greenish I believe) in appearance, with long, nimble, and very dexterous hands on their front legs, physically they are noticeable smaller, and more fragile-looking. They are otherwise a lot like the Kreen, but these differences suggest there was something that made them so.... deviated from the Kreen. Sure, it could be that they were Kreen that simply "evolved" into being like the Zik-Chil, it's just there's this band of Rhulisti which vanished about the end of the Blue Age, and later in the Kreen history the Zik-Chil seemingly appear. Not a sudden "Rhulisti one day/Zik-Chil the next" idea, but something that occurred over decades if not centuries.
I'm not "retconning" anything here, I simply have been using this to explain some of the mysteries, the unknowns in Dark Sun's history. I'm not supplanting the known Athasian history, I am simply adding to it, with a possible explanation for how things got the way they were. For me, this is something which answers some otherwise puzzling questions, and helps set the tone, at least for me, of what and where the Tohr-Kreen Empire is, and where it came from.
Again, I have to respectfully re-iterate, all official, original material seems to go to some lengths to make it clear that the Kreen developed their form, culture, skills and knowledge independently from the other races. There is absolutely no evidence to the contrary. The Nature Benders had been wiped out long before the Kreen independently developed their body-alteration abilities.
I have no problem with the Kreen developing their own culture, skills, and knowledge independently from other races. That does not mean that the Nature-Benders didn't manipulate the Kreen to accelerate their development at all. It just means that the Kreen figured these things out for themselves, they just were somewhat molded to make it happen at a faster rate than they'd otherwise have done. There is nothing actually stating the Nature Benders were wiped out -- only that they were banished from the region, and the Jagged Cliffs, which I'm almost positive, were formed as a barrier to keep the Nature Benders out, the Rhul-Thaun are the descendants of the guardians positioned on the Cliffs to protect against the Nature Benders, if memory serves.
And, for the record, I've never been opposed to the notion that the Kreen were sentient in the Blue Age. I've typically gone with the notion that they were barbaric at best at that time, with no tools, technology, or anything else -- a hunter/gatherer species, probably quite predatory in nature.
What the people here are proposing is that these kreen may not necessarily know the beings that they met, after the Rebirth, or after the War, were halflings. These haflings may also have looked different from normal halflings, nature-bended for strength, longevity, speed, bla bla. Anyway, it's what I'd do in their shoes, "retcon" myself, since everyone seems so fond of that term.
It doesn't just state that they never met halflings, it says that they never met talking mammals at all.
In the Blue Age, which is fine. But in the Green Age, they did. Early in the Green Age, in fact. Early in the Green Age, most of the races were busy doing something, notably the whole rebirth thing. The only Rhuslisti which we know of that weren't busy doing that, were the Rhul-Thaun on their Jagged Cliffs, and then it can be inferred the Nature-Benders as well (having been exiled, once again, in the general location the Kreen were located).
hate to nit pick, but the quote from Kreen of Athas says, flat out, according to Klik-Cheka’da this is what happened. It is subjective history (oral history in fact -- ever play "telephone" as a child?), just like Oronis, just like the Wanderer.
It is good, but not objective, which means it is colored and may not be 100% factual.
Much like RaFoaDK.
Though his perspective is skewed toward the kreen point of view, Klik'’s telling of history is essentially a true one. Long ago, the planet of Athas was covered with water, the non-kreen races call this time the Blue Age, and during that time the halflings had a great and powerful civilization. However, most people do not realize that kreen— - the mantis people, usually called by their more specific names, thri-kreen and tohr-kreen,— lived during
that age as well. During the Blue Age, the kreen were primitive, their development stunted by their environment. The Blue Age ended and the waters retreated, largely due to the actions of the ancient halflings. Plants grew, and all manner of life spread across the surface of Athas. The kreen met the halflings, as well as many of the races that sprang from the halflings, among them dwarves, elves, humans, and giants. The kreen evolved, they developed weapons and a civilization. They honed their mental powers, and many became masters of the Way. Then came the Time of Magic, the age of Rajaat and of the Cleansing Wars he launched to eliminate the offshoots of the halfling race.
Where in that "objective" history do you get that proto-kreen (i.e. the progenitors of the kreen who had gossamer wings) and rhulisti never met "at all" during the Blue Age?
The history doesn't rule out your reading, but I don't think it supports dogmatic statements like this
This official source says flat-out that the Kreen and the Halflings didn't meet, at all, until the Green Age.
Where? Please quote where the objective source says this "flat out."
"Essentially true" means less than completely true.
xlorepdarkhelm, What is wrong with the same ability being developed twice independent of each other? Sorry to say, but, I am a pro-independent kreen fan. From what little I know of the Rhuslisti, their bending/changing skills seem to be completely different from the kreen version (an internal process).
I don't entirely know what you mean about it being completely different. It was the same thing -- it is the ability to manipulate the genetic/biological sequences of things. I've tended to (and I know this is my personal perspective) see the whole thing as a bio-technology, rather than anything magical or psionic. The Rhulisti apparently developed the ability and used it in biological organisms they crafted/created (the nature masters tended to be able to make things from scratch, the nature benders seemed to have an imperfect knowledge, and were limited to manipulating existing creatures). As such, the nature benders, once exiled from the Tyragi, into the area that eventually dried and became the Crimson Savannah, could easily, and arguably, logically found the "proto-kreen", the barbaric race of insectoids living there, and manipulated things.
Why? Let's see, the nature-benders were exiled from their homeland, they easily could have felt they were usurped, and that the Tyragi (now the Tablelands basically) was rightfully theirs. They were not strong enough to fight the nature masters, so they do what comes naturally to them -- they find another species, and manipulate it to serve their purposes. The barbaric mantis-people get some manipulations to advance rapidly. They become more or less civilized, develop tools, weapons, and means & methods of warfare. They develop their entire society. The nature-benders would have potentially done something small at first to start the wheel going, then disappeared for a while, to "observe" the Kreen.
Not content with simply observing, they wanted to take a more proactive stance to develop the Kreen into their new weapons. They also admired certain qualities of the Kreen. The nature-benders had to teach successive generations how to manipulate life (lifeshaping), through studies, classes, and training. The Kreen, however, had a genetic memory -- each Kreen simply knew everything his or her parents knew, and needed no (or very, very little) training. The Kreen had certain advantages with their exoskeleton, they had additional things they could do with the extra set of limbs. So, the nature-benders change themselves to appear more like the Kreen, to have the advantages of the Kreen, and became what now is known as the Zik-Chil. Positioning themselves as a sort of "advisory" role, the "Priests of Change" guide the Kreen.
What the nature-benders didn't expect though, is that the genetic memory is imperfect. Since becoming Zik-Chil, they had destroyed their records -- everything became passed down genetically and no longer needed to be written (which also prevented the other Kreen from potentially learning their ways) -- over time, bits of information in the genetic memory became fuzzy, difficult to remember, until it simply became plain forgotten (I'm talking a matter of several generations here). The Zik-Chil eventually simply forgot who and what exactly they were. The rest of the Kreen simply always accepted them as Kreen (that is, "people"), without questioning or even wondering where they came from or really who they were.
Think about it, the Zik-Chil could have modified themselves to make the process of "change" be a biological function, it makes a bit of sense, sort of like the idea of a cyborg having devices on him or her to repair,work on machines.
You don't think that arrogance could have made them try to improve on themselves with the "positives" of the Kreen Race that they may have liked -- the convenience of genetic memory, the added protection of an exoskeleton, the extra arms, with a modification for added articulation, possibly better sensory awareness with the antennae, etc? We're talking a group of Rhulisti which seemed to be big on the whole genetic modification thing. And what's more arrogant -- simply modifying others, or modifying themselves believing that they could make themselves even better?
I'd say modifying others would be more arrogant. Forcing a living creature into a form that nature never intended is the ultimate act of superiority. The life-benders changing an insectiod so that it able to achieve sentience, the ability to think and reason, and most of all, granting it appendages produce and use tools in an effort to make them be more like themselves is pure conceit. I’d imagine that they suffer from immense god complexes and an over developed sense of self worth.
I view nature-benders in the same light as Dr. Moreau or, to lesser extent, Kamino Cloners.
I'd say modifying others would be more arrogant. Forcing a living creature into a form that nature never intended is the ultimate act of superiority. The life-benders changing an insectiod so that it able to achieve sentience, the ability to think and reason, and most of all, granting it appendages produce and use tools in an effort to make them be more like themselves is pure conceit. I’d imagine that they suffer from immense god complexes and an over developed sense of self worth.
I view nature-benders in the same light as Dr. Moreau or, to lesser extent, Kamino Cloners.
I view them with a similar extent to the Yuuzhon Vong. I'd say that yes, you are right, there is an incredible amount of arrogance to force a creature to change to something you will it to do. But also, there is even more arrogance to adapt the best qualities of other creatures into yourself, and make yourself even more powerful.
For the record, I don't tend to follow the basic thoughts that the nature benders were inherently "evil" and the nature masters were inherently "good". I do think that history is written by the victors, and so more positives are possibly seen in the nature masters, but the nature benders were, at least in my mind, simply another faction of lifeshapers. The notion that their lifeshaping skills was "incomplete", that the nature masters had the "true" lifeshaping skills to make entirely new creatures.... that feels like a sort of spin on the situation to me. I'd say that it is equally possible that the nature benders may have felt the nature masters were wrong to create entirely new life, that it was better only to adapt what already existed. rather than "pretending to be god" (using modern paraphrasing) and cloning/creating new unknown life forms from scratch, the nature benders (which may not have called themselves that anyway) would rather change and improve what was already there.
I'm not saying that either side was morally correct or incorrect. I would suggest that the nature benders lost the fight, and were exiled from their homes. And that the victors of this -- the nature masters, the faction which was the ancestors of the Rhul-Thaun cliff-dwellers, those were the ones which wrote the history that the Rhul-Thaun know. What faction is going to write that they were the bad guys? It's more likely (plausible) that much of the Rhul-Thaun history has a bit of a partisan slant to it.
Where in that "objective" history do you get that proto-kreen (i.e. the progenitors of the kreen who had gossamer wings) and rhulisti never met "at all" during the Blue Age?
The history doesn't rule out your reading, but I don't think it supports dogmatic statements like this
Where? Please quote where the objective source says this "flat out."
"Essentially true" means less than completely true.
It says right after the section you quoted me on that the Kreen were very surprised to meet something new, Dra who could talk, during the Green Age. If it was something new, it was not something with which they had previous experience.
I'd also like to point out, I'm not saying that the idea of the nature benders being Zik-Chil is the only possible answer for things. I'm saying it is a plausable theory that fits together the kown elements into something very probable. But, there could be any other theories as well. We're talking a world where history is not really something recorded in very many, if any places.
Personally, I also believe that what the history of Athas calls the "Blue Age", is actually not the true first age of Athas, but something later. I have been formulating and running with a thought that the Rhulisti are a technologically (ok, biotechnologically) advanced species. And that they went through much of the same kind of history, of a sorts, and advancements that somewhat mirror humans on Earth. With a notable exception -- they developed with biotechnology primarily, rather than mechanical technology (drawing concepts presented in Star Wars with the Yuuzhon Vong). I think there may have been a number of ages before the point of what we know in the history of Athas as the "Blue Age". Potentially things that are permanetly lost forever in time, which may or may not explain some of the quirkiness of Athas -- like the somewhat peculiar Athasian Cosmology, for example. What if the world wasn't a water world at first, what if it was more Earth-like, but it had some impressive polar caps that melted?
It is this line of thinking, that lifeshaping is highly developed, and highly advanced biotechnology that took thousands upon thousands of years for the Rhulisti to fashion to the degree they had as noted in the Blue Age of the Athasian timeline, that makes me stray from the idea that the Kreen could have just miraculously figured it out themselves, without help. Sure, it is taking something that has absolutely no basis at all in the Athasian timeline or history (the notion of multiple ages in Athas' history before the Blue Age) to help explain other concepts which are not flat-out discussed in the Athasian timeline (the Zik-Chil being Rhulisti that lifeshaped themselves into the Zik-Chil, or at least the ancestors of the modern Zik-Chil), but we are, if memory serves, talking about a fantasy setting, one which was left somewhat incomplete by a disintegrating TSR. I would think that the notion of expanding upon it, with some creative ideas about the past -- ideas that don't directly conflict with anything in the books, but somewhat fill in some gaps in knowledge, would not be such a bad thing.
Like I said, it doesn't have to be the only theory. It easily could be one of many theories. These would merely be ideas which then any DM could see fit to include when thinking about how to establish the campaign for his or her own Dark Sun campaigns, or to not include it. The idea that the Kreen had been modified/improved/advanced by Rhulisti Nature-Benders, and that the Nature-Benders could actually be what became the modern Zik-Chil, is grounded in logical deduction made from the rather fragmented and confused timeline Athas has to offer. Is it what really happened? Who knows? The history books were destroyed, lost, or whatever.... there has been tens of thousands of years and many majory, sweeping changes done to the world since then. There is no guarantee that if modern people did find any history references, that they'd even understand it. Does anyone here honestly think that the Rhulisti would have resorted to paper and pens to write anything (especially in a Water World), rather than some kind of lifeshaped datastore-like things? Even if they did, what's the odds that it would have survived everything that has happened over the millenia since the Blue Age -- especially in a world where the idea of it turning to a desert wasteland would be laughable at the time. Things designed to function and/or be useful in a humid environment are not prone to working well in an arid one.
Oh, and the wonderful "Kreen Memory" described in Thri-Kreen of Athas, if I remember correctly, is also occasionally alluded to as being pretty flawed, and the Kreen have a hard time remembering several details (like who or what exactly the Great One is). The Athasian timeline is also suspect, as there is virtually nobody on Athas which really remembers that far back -- at most maybe some Pyreen (including Rajaat), but their memories would extend to the Green Age. The Kreen's memory is fuzzy on many details, and might have confused others. The Sorcerer-Kings (and Mind Lords, Order, etc) have done a pretty good job of heavy-handed revisions to regional histories, and probably have done mroe than their fair share of destroying books that potentially contradict their rewrites, or might provide some source of knowledge (and thus, power) to their subjects.
Taking the Athasian history, as it is written, and claiming that it is 100% certainly true with no errors in it would be somewhat silly. It is far more likely that with the ways history has been passed down over the millenia throughout Athas, that many of the details -- especially the older ones -- are a bit...murky.
In the end -- does the origins/connections of the Tohr-Kreen, Zik-Chil, and Nature-Bender Rhulisti have any real value to the modern Athasian? Nope. It is mainly an intellectual exercise, and most Athasians don't have the luxury of spending any time on it. Does it really impact anything in the modern world? Nope. Does it give the Zik-Chil any more power or capability than they already have? Not at all. It's just a fun little idea that some DMs might like, others might not. It could provide some story hooks for adventures and campaigns, or it could be chucked out the window. That's the great thing about these ideas... it provides a sort of "a la carte" system for the DM to dig through for interesting nuggets to use in their individual campaigns.
Where exactly does it state that kreen can't utilize life-shapes? PAoA?
I think it was in the adventure in the revised boxed set when the PCs explore the halfling ruins.
The PCs come across a portal that functions for any rebirth race (ie halflings) but not Kreen.
I may be mistaken bit I think thats right. After rereading it however it may only apply that particular portal. However logically you could apply that to all halfling technology:P - its the same logic being used here in some arguements. I wouldn't be surprised though the halfiings would engineer their technology so others (Kreen anyway) couldn't use it.
Personally retconning should only be used when theres confusion or contradictions in the rules/history and be kept reasonably minor. One could also flesh out the history of Athas which won't contradict with whats known. Theres never really been any arguement about what caused the brown tide and the primary sources seem to indicate the Kreen evolved on their own. Halflings don't have to be the source of everything on Athas.
One could argue that Rajaat was a human or even Halfling who mastered magic and used it to disguise himself as a Pyreen mutant or perhaps the Pristine Tower warping him as a side effect made him immortal as well. Quite logical even believable arguements but once again it majorly contradicts what is known.
Back to the original idea though I have had some ideas about the Kreen empire and factions etc withen it. Anyone want me to do a write up.
Back to the original idea though I have had some ideas about the Kreen empire and factions etc withen it. Anyone want me to do a write up.
I'd be very interested to see what you've come up with!
AZAZEL