Spirits of the Land are the consciousness of the living land, usually of a geographical feature such as a mountain, hills, rock formation, hot spring, river bed, oasis, or even winds or a section of sky. Spirits of the Land grant spells to druids, in order to win their allegiance, and occasionally form a relationship with a local Grove Master. A Spirit of the Land cannot be physically attacked unless it manifests its elemental form. An elemental manifestation of a Spirit of the Land is the physical embodiment of the land, appearing in very rare circumstances. Generally, a Spirit of the Land only takes form in a desperate situation, such as when someone wreaks great destruction in their land, someone defiles their ground, or when the Spirit of the Land desires a mouthpiece in order to converse with a powerful creature, such as an avangion. Some ancient tomes refer to the physical manifestations as the Land’s Avatar, but most Athasians today refer to the elemental manifestation as the Spirit of the Land, and do not distinguish the physical manifestation from its normal formless state.
BTW, I'm hoping that you'll take interest in Kurn's Great Library. The scholar's clave (which runs the library in conjunction with Kurn's school of spies), would be the perfect voice for you to offer plausible theories for how various things in Athas work. You know me; when it comes to the deep dark mysteries of Athas, I'd always prefer to offer two or more alternate plausible theories that can't be ruled out under the facts.
*please correct me if I'm wrong, and if you see anything in the description that does contradict hive theory.
Most of us are gluttons for thoughtful feedback. I suspect that if you engaged in the discussion that I've been trying to start here on the SotLs, that content of the secret discussions would come into the open. But if Athas.org can't count on getting thoughtful feedback on ideas in development by posting them on this board, the discussions will probably run by private email.
I miss the old list-serv discussion. It was amazing how much stuff would come out of those discussions.
{nudge}
From FFN:
thoughts?
The MMII version of a "spirit of the land" was obviously broken for Dark Sun purposes, since it was just an incorporeal creature that happened to claim a stretch of land as its own. The Dark Sun SotL needs to remain the actual spirit of the land, otherwise the whole druid spell thing breaks down.
Here's how we handled the SotL when not physically manifested:
Note that physical isn't the same thing as corporeal. A manifestation made of pure air or pure fire is often incorporeal, and yet it's obviously physical.
Calling the SotLs "incorporeal" as the MMII does, is obviously unsatisfactory since incorporeal in the D&D sense means that it's a discrete physical spirit, like a ghost. You can actually target incorporeal creatures for physical attacks, whereas the MCI was pretty clear that you can't do that to the SotL in their normal unmanifested state -- they are simply a consciousness in the land until they manifest a temporary physical form.
Where we've departed somewhat from the MCI is that we've made their appearance more natural and sometimes animalistic/insectoid/plantlike (rather than purely elemental), and reduced the intelligence to human levels while keeping wisdom very very high. We think this is more consistent with what we see as the original intent to make SotLs into personified forces of nature, rather than demigods.
Thoughts?
Another bit of new ground is the unique treatment of the 5 SotLs of the Trembling Plains:
One thing is clear, though, is that the spirits, as they are in FNN, are already superior to the 2E version, but are still lacking. You may find that the people around you have already offered options to attempt improvment, but unless some new genius comes into the scene, I'm afraid you're stuck with us and our ideas, old chap! ;)
he had years to attempt imprinting them unto you,
Wrong. Try days.
and the attempt failed
That remains to be seen. You saw the SotL material more than a week before we made it public and I never received any comment from you. I'll ask you again, Penn, if you want to talk privately, then email me and make your point. If you want to discuss ideas publically, then use this forum. But don't make hinted references to emails in the public, particularly emails that you never sent me. It shuts non-templars out of the discussion.
I'm afraid you're stuck with us and our ideas, old chap!
Which ideas? All I'm seeing is veiled references to ideas.
One thing is clear, though, is that the spirits, as they are in FNN, are already superior to the 2E version, but are still lacking.
I'm glad that's clear to you, Penn, but since you haven't said anything specific, it's not clear to me what improvements you're looking for. I'd appreciate it if you'd use FFN as a point of departure and suggest which specific changes you'd believe would improve the description.
-brax, who is here to talk about ideas, not to talk about talking about ideas.
It shuts non-templars out of the discussion.
Non-templars? I forwarded to you the entire templarate email discussion, which is a wooping 2 or 3 emails long. It being stamped templarate doesn't make it any better or secretive for it. Sorry you don't have access to it without being forwarded the material, but there is no hidden discussion but what others have kept private and out of the templarate discussion. It being private I thus have no knowledge of or access to it.
That remains to be seen. You saw the SotL material more than a week before we made it public and I never received any comment from you.
That forwarded email discussion is my comment. My agreement, in this thread, of Cliff's ideas is also my comment. Do you know what Cliff's ideas are?
But don't make hinted references to emails in the public, particularly emails that you never sent me.
There are no hinted references. The forwarded email discussion was sent to you before you wrote your last response.
As for Cliff having had years to discuss this with you, as I thought, I only assumed (an obvious mistake) that if he discussed his spirits' ideas for hours with me over the phone, he must have done so with others at athas.org. This was years ago. I imagine people like Kamelion, Flip, or Jon were part of these late-night sharings of ideas as well. I thought you would have been. I was mistaken.
An animate features ability is an obvious additon, like I mentionned in the email.
I'm also ok with not having a spirit template or the likes. All spirits should be unique and tailored to their place of existence. And compared, in power, to all other previously published spirits so they seem to follow some agreed upon logic.
There should be the ability of having more than one element - up to 4 - reflected in some spirits, downright to abilties, like multiple types of Element Mastery.
Ultimately, Cliff wanted to link spirits with communities of advanced beings druids, joining together to create uber powerful spirits that serve as kind of retirement homes for epic and AB druids. This might be very complicated, or simply taken litteraly, thus some spirits are home to a number of other entities.
Mass defiling - an army of defilers, a powerful defiling artifact - should have negative effects on spirits. In the (currently shelved) add-on to the Athasian Emporium project, fixating on quasi-magical areas of Athas, I described the following, if that can be of help to you:
Defiled Wastes: Circles of defiling dot many desert and scrubland landscapes on Athas. The ash that composes these pock-marks on the land usually gets blown away by winds soon after, adding to the pervasive dust in the air. But sometimes the effects of defiling are too extensive, and the land itself goes awry over the area. These vast zones — known as defiled wastes — measure 5d10 square miles and cover a roughly circular area. Within the confines of defiled wastes weather is askew: ashstorms (treat as duststorms; see Weather in Chapter 3 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide) can rise without a moment’s notice, always accompanied by winds that can reach windstorm-magnitude, and last for 2d4–1 hours. The winds blow in circles, keeping the ash confined within the waste. During ashstorms, visibility is cut by three-quarters.
The land as been so damaged that it affects certain magic users. The magic of druids and rangers does not function within their confines, the mystic link between nature and attuned individual severed. Wizards using the life energy of plants to power their spells cannot do so if they are more than a mile within the waste, the gathering energies being absorbed by the in-between sterile ground.
The waste’s vast destruction of the land severely weakened the local spirit of the land, the sterility having slowly driven it insane. For every hour that living creatures travel within a defiled waste there is a 5% cumulative chance of rousing its mad and vengeful spirit of the land which attacks all living creatures in sight. [Add here the differences in stats for this version of the spirit of the land; make it something like a low-Int Huge fire elemental made of ash.]
During ashstorms, when ash is airborne, there is danger of contracting Gray Plaque, an insidious wasting disease.
Some of the stuff like Animate Features I'd like to see added to FFN immediately, and other stuff I'd like to see developed in that SotL template that you described, if we end up going that way, and probably, when it's passed the Senate etc., going into the final version of FFN.
Ultimately, Cliff wanted to link spirits with communities of advanced beings druids, joining together to create uber powerful spirits that serve as kind of retirement homes for epic and AB druids. This might be very complicated, or simply taken litteraly, thus some spirits are home to a number of other entities.
Like I told Cliff, I think that sounds like a wonderful idea, taking into account the Zwuun and a number of other issues. But if we'd taken the time to work all of that into the Beta FFN description, it would be months before that document saw the light, and like I said, I'm not sure whether that stuff should go into FFN or into LC or CSoK or some other, story-heavy work. I think it would be a serious mistake to try to flesh out 3.5 rules for what you describe, because by the time we were anywhere near done agreeing, 4.0 would be nipping at our heels.
The only reservation I have is this, and it may be that Cliff has already taken this into account: I'm not sure whether it's the literal spirits of the dead that get a place, or simply the spirit in an animistic sense, i.e. the imprint of their personality. An animist might say that Hamanu's spirit became infused into the spirit of the land at the end of RaFoaDK even though Hamanu himself never died.
Just an idea. You do get feedback in the forums but Athas.org comes off as quite elitist and ideas are usually ignored. Athas.org usually decides XYZ is going to be done this way even if its not ideal or gets sidetracked on various pet projects.You would be surprised at how often Athas.org does get mentioned on other threads it usually goes something like this.
" I used to love Darksun its my favourite boxed set"
" Try Athas.org for 3.5 rules" (me sometimes others)
" Been there don't really like what they're doing" (or words to that effect)
Theres been some great work by various posters like Sysanes Templars and I forget who done the spell lists for Elemental clerics but that was kewl as well.. Would it really be that hard to revise the word document/PDF that is the "core" rules for Darksun. I've been at the DS boards for 2 years (lurked for a while)and on the boards for 6.5 years and yeah.
Personally I would have stolen more than a few ideas various posters have done and edited some documents.
Me and Kamelion had some fun speaking up for .org on other websites where a few members are notoriously anti-.org. Great fun.
And never forget that, compared to other old 2E settings, Dark Sun is one of the few where people wanted to see more of a d20 conversion than a 3E one, with certain imbalance between preserving and defiling, more power to the gladiator, etc. .org came and said it had to be balance, so a lot of people didn't like.
I imagine a spirit motivated enough could manifest tendrils that would drag a creature over a canyon or into a water or lava pool, killing or drowning the creature.
Also, earth-based spirits might be able to entangle and pull down, encasing the creature in the ground where it suffocates and takes crushing damage.
And the ton of other fans that happen to love Athas.org's Dark Sun simply don't voice their opinion more publicly, I've noticed. You got hundreds of hits on this forum, and .org's site, yet not much "I love your stuff!". Those that like don't much say, and those that don't like feel like saying.
Me and Kamelion had some fun speaking up for .org on other websites where a few members are notoriously anti-.org. Great fun.
And never forget that, compared to other old 2E settings, Dark Sun is one of the few where people wanted to see more of a d20 conversion than a 3E one, with certain imbalance between preserving and defiling, more power to the gladiator, etc. .org came and said it had to be balance, so a lot of people didn't like.
For the most part you're right as people don't tend to complain about stuff that they like or don't care to much about. Lately there has been a lack of rules varients posted or when there is one posted theres not alot discussion as odds are no one else is going do adopt someone elses houserules into their game.
First, I think that the SotL should have a miss chance to hit it, even when it is manifesting itself as a creature. I think that, being that the substance it is using is more like a shell than anything else (it is not their true form, it is just a form they are using) that a miss chance of 50% (same as incorporeal critters) displays the fact that they are harder to actually physical damage. After all, even the earth based ones are still just dirt and sand and rocks.
Second, I like the animate features version. It allows for other things to be used. To me, it seems that SotL would be very frequently encountered, but PC's wouldn't really have to know it. They might "get" that they are hurting the land and that the land is fighting back when they poison an oasis to avenge themselves against a elf tribe, but they will probably think it was a druid sending the animals to attack them.
Or in other words: having ways for a CR25 creature to interact with a EL 5 party is important to ensure that the CR25 is played right, and the EL 5 has a chance at life.
Third I think some DR is appropriate, as well as an immunity to mind affecting effects. They just seem to big and ancient and alien (to a mortals mind) to really be affected by something like mind thrust or the like.
I also like the idea of the hive mind, though I think that this can be left out of the rules part of the creature, and left as a story/fluff part. I can see interesting plot devices around this (my great great grandfather was a druid who just wandered away, and now I interact with him in this oasis where he died). Whether it's imprinting or honest interaction, I don't really care, its the same for the player, and makes a good story.
Best to leave that part unknown, I say.
what page would those be on?
I don't have access to the book currently. I know that its within the first 15 pages of the book though.
Yes, you have, many seasons ago, and what you see now does take those discussions into account, Xlorep. Your theories featured prominently in my last discussion with Flip as we finalized certain aspects of the SotL last week. I was careful not to avoid putting anything into the description that would rule out hive theory,* which IIRC you weren't ready to make official, but rather to use as a development model.
*please correct me if I'm wrong, and if you see anything in the description that does contradict hive theory.
The glance-over doesn't seem to override the idea. Since my "hive mind" theory wasn't a global consciousness, but more along the lines of small pockets of druid advanced beings attached to "original" SotLs that existed before the druids became advanced beings, the original creatures that the pact of earth, air, fire, and water resulted in them being gifted divine power to hand to followers, the original creatures more or less being similar to the SotL's that are found in the Monster Manual II. The individual druids which followed a specific SotL, when he or she becomes an advanced being would become incorporated in that SotL's consciousness, while still being separate and distinct. The results would be that the individual would have all of the experience and knowledge of everyone connected to that specific consciousness, and could draw upon it. The individual would be able to become insubstantial (I like your Formless State, that basically says what I was getting at there), but could manifest into a physical form (and do things like leave the territory guarded by the SotL consciousness). While in the physical form, the individual would have very little (if any) evidence of being a SotL -- thus, they effectively "hide in plain sight". When detached from the rest of the hive, and moving abroad, some of their SotL abilities would be dampened -- but would return once the individual came within the "guarded land" of that hive.
With my idea, your five SotLs for FFN would effectively be five separate hives (mind you, there does not need to be many in the hive, like one or two druid advanced beings and the core entity per hive even). Separate hives do not need to be working together, in fact I tend to like the idea that they are completely separate, and can (and frequently do) work at cross purposes. The world is fractured, and the creatures that are the embodiment of the physical world are also fractured and fragmented.
Ultimately, I wanted it to be something that in the Blue Age, there was a massive collective consciousness that linked all of the SotLs together. But the results of multiple effects rippling across the land has splintered that into separate smallish communities (like 1 - 5 advanced beings plus a "core entity" per) scattered across the wastes. I've wanted to make it that the SotLs themselves get injured by defilers scarring the land -- and several have been outright killed over the years, particularly during the Cleansing Wars (and the "Druid Purge" that exists in the history), which has made the SotLs outright hostile to Defilers -- which has passed down to their Druid followers to be set against Defilers (seen as murderers). My Druids are rather angry individuals, despising the society that the most dangerous Defilers have created, and they even dislike Preservers, most of them seeing Preservers as simply potential Defilers, and occasionally deciding that eliminating the potential threat will prevent it from becoming an actual threat.
I've even considered that it was the communal nature of the SotLs which was an overarching means to have a universal Druid community and hierarchy which exists on other D&D worlds, but the fragmenting of that has made it so there is no uniform structure to the Druids -- Druids that follow different SotLs are mostly oblivious to each other, and not necessarily trusting (they've been separated for too long).
My idea can leave room for selfish, selfless, corrupted, twisted, or simply angry SotLs (that is, hives), as well as some which may actually still be mostly benevolent and simply protecting the land.
BTW, I'm hoping that you'll take interest in Kurn's Great Library. The scholar's clave (which runs the library in conjunction with Kurn's school of spies), would be the perfect voice for you to offer plausible theories for how various things in Athas work. You know me; when it comes to the deep dark mysteries of Athas, I'd always prefer to offer two or more alternate plausible theories that can't be ruled out under the facts.
I've been wanting to get more involved again with Athas.org in general, I've just been seriously tied up with work and school... which has left me very little time to pursue much of anything...
So far my overall grade of this is a 10/10. good job!
Also, cnahumck, if Meth had those ideas about corrupt SotL, he never told me. I already posted what we originally slated for the AE release, and whcih was taken out for some future project at Jon's request. Maybe you were talking about that.
Cliff, IIRC I discussed with you the Defiled Wastes and how they would interact with SotL. Do you recall what was said?
Cliff, IIRC I discussed with you the Defiled Wastes and how they would interact with SotL. Do you recall what was said?
Not really off hand, and I have lost a lot of my old Athas.org emails since migrating my email address to a new one. However, with the Defiled Wastes, I'd personally believe that the SotL there either went mad from the pain & suffering inflicted on it if it didn't outright die. I've toyed with the idea that the Dragon's rampage actually was a pretty extreme massacre to a large number of SotL's, but then again, the Cleansing Wars were as well, and then there was the Druidic Purge. The sad thing in my book is that the Defilers, even the lauded Sorcerer-Kings/Champions of Rajaat are mostly oblivious to this attack...
I can't necessarily say the same thing about Rajaat himself, he may have blamed the SotL's for his condition and being made so loathsome and twisted (I tend to think that the Pyreen were the first Green Age race blessed with a link to the SotLs... but Rajaat didn't have one, on top of his twisted/mangled form). Rajaat could have, at some level, intentionally or unintentionally, designed Arcane Magic to do harm to "those that spurned him/cursed him" (in his mind).
Rajaat was a Pyreen?!
Yep, Rajaat was a Pyreen. A twisted, malformed, and hideously disgusting one that resented himself and his form so much that he eventually decided the entire Green Age was ruined because it could produce something as hideous as himself, devised the entire Cleansing War campaigns, Arcane Magic, and other monstrous things in order to "wipe the slate clean" and try to force Athas to go back to the Blue Age, giving the world back to the Halflings. Or so he rationalized to himself.
I tend to think he had no link to the SotL's unlike the rest of the Pyreen (this is a personal tangent of mine), and his form/appearance in Cerulean Storm suggests that he's been making pacts/connections to the Paraelemental planes directly (I'd guess in lieu of his being cut off from the SotL's and thus the Elemental powers).. and this is somewhat evident in how the Paraelements have become a bit more... selfish in how they are doing things now, disregarding "the Balance".
Yep, Rajaat was a Pyreen. A twisted, malformed, and hideously disgusting one that resented himself and his form so much that he eventually decided the entire Green Age was ruined because it could produce something as hideous as himself, devised the entire Cleansing War campaigns, Arcane Magic, and other monstrous things in order to "wipe the slate clean" and try to force Athas to go back to the Blue Age, giving the world back to the Halflings. Or so he rationalized to himself.
I tend to think he had no link to the SotL's unlike the rest of the Pyreen (this is a personal tangent of mine), and his form/appearance in Cerulean Storm suggests that he's been making pacts/connections to the Paraelemental planes directly (I'd guess in lieu of his being cut off from the SotL's and thus the Elemental powers).. and this is somewhat evident in how the Paraelements have become a bit more... selfish in how they are doing things now, disregarding "the Balance".
Wow i never knew! ok so who were the life shapers/ life benders? the pyreen?
Might think about reading the online Timeline, reveals a lot of stuff on figures, places. It's a very good primer. Should be found in the Dark Sun Forum Archive.
i pretty much read it daily now, but it doesnt say what race the lifeshapers were. if the Pyreen were the first race in the blue age making them the life shapers i would just need a nod to confirm it, but i don't know if thats correct without sayso.
[edit] feeback on Sotl. Question. Can a druid in times of need call for his/her Sotl and it will come to the druids aid?
[edit2] if a Sotl dies, will the land create a new one? will the original Sotl be reborn or raised? or will the land
be without one forever after?
i pretty much read it daily now, but it doesnt say what race the lifeshapers were. if the Pyreen were the first race in the blue age making them the life shapers i would just need a nod to confirm it, but i don't know if thats correct without sayso.
No, the Pyreen were not the Life Shapers. The Life Shapers were a guild of Rhulisti, Blue Age halflings. Pyreen didn't exist until the Green Age, after the Rebirth.
[edit] feeback on Sotl. Question. Can a druid in times of need call for his/her Sotl and it will come to the druids aid?
No. Most druids don't have "one" SotL, and the ability to summon a CR > 20 creature at need is huge
[edit2] if a Sotl dies, will the land create a new one? will the original Sotl be reborn or raised? or will the land
be without one forever after?
The SotL doesn't die, it's manifestation might. Next day, it can manifest again. The only way to really kill a spirit of the land is to completely destroy the land it represents. And that would just result in a transformed, different spirit (barring completely defiling the whole region, which really would kill it dead)
i pretty much read it daily now, but it doesnt say what race the lifeshapers were. if the Pyreen were the first race in the blue age making them the life shapers i would just need a nod to confirm it, but i don't know if thats correct without sayso.
Check out this for more information.
Rajaat was a Pyreen?!
Yeah in 2nd ed Pyreen were had Psionic/Duidic powers. In Rajaat case I would replace the Druid powers with wizard powers.
Yeah in 2nd ed Pyreen were had Psionic/Duidic powers. In Rajaat case I would replace the Druid powers with wizard powers.
I rule in my games that he never had the Druid powers. He was somehow crippled ion the connection the rest of his race had with the Spirits of the Land, and as a result, may have felt spurned even by the Spirits.
Brax, if you need draging rules for the animate features ability (i.e. how the tendrils can drag a creature towards a certain destination), please let me know. I worked on such rules for a magic item and they are very detailed.
I imagine a spirit motivated enough could manifest tendrils that would drag a creature over a canyon or into a water or lava pool, killing or drowning the creature.
Also, earth-based spirits might be able to entangle and pull down, encasing the creature in the ground where it suffocates and takes crushing damage.
I appreciate the rules that you sent. I'm wondering if there's an alternate ability that we could offer for SotLs whose land isn't amenable to entanglement, e.g. a salt flats.
I would make Spirits of the Land a template. Wheneve rthey manifest a elemental form (elder earth elemental or monolith elemental from MM3, or even Elder Elementals form the ELH) add the template to the elemental.
I agree, and eventually we'll get there, but I'd rather see how 4e works out rather than dedicating time and resources to something that's going to be obselete a few months after we're finished writing. For now, we're just popping out a bunch of specific SotLs, and it's not hard to look at the examples and make up another one.