http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070924
Hey you are learning young one :D
Yup Planescap just went the way of the FR it seems.
Hey you are learning young one :D
Yup Planescap just went the way of the FR it seems.
The Core world is implied to be cut from the base classics or so, with a more generality design philosophy. AKA, back to the bases, simple to make an example.
D&D is not dumbing down; the core fluff is made to be basic and simple as an example of world making AND the rules in action. A demo, if you wish.
However, these changes do no... DO NOT prevent people from using an older cosmos if they want, especially if gods like Asmodious or Tharizdun are not a part of your setting.
The more I see this stuff the more I think that the Points of Light campaign model will evolve into tis own meta-setting.
And demons are spawned by elementals corrupted by this Seed of Evil?
So outer planes might now be abodes floating in the Astral Sea, and the Abyss a part of the Elemental Tempest plane?
And demons are spawned by elementals corrupted by this Seed of Evil?
If you use that cosmology, yes, yes they will be.
But wha surprises me is, that they said the Core Rules will be presented without reference to a setting? From all I read since then it feels pretty much like they are making great efforts to create a very detailed core-setting.
From what I can tell, and I cannot divulge all of my sources, the PHb will not talk very little about a meta-setting and its integril fluff will be loose and easily removed.
The optional meta-setting campaign model (that speaks of the planes/other worldly places and prehistory, with very little about the "current" world other than the necessities of a Points of Light campaign).
Since its not in the PHb players and for that matter DMs will not feel shoehorned into it.
-Asmodeus (possible aspect of The Serpent)
-Janzirai (quoatls)
-The Lady of Pain (possible daughter of Poseidon)
-The Serpent (possible aspect of Asmodeus)
I'm still going with the Great Wheel cosmology for my current Planescape (of course) campaign, but I can see why they wanted to clean up the planes/fiends etc what with:
The Nine Hells/Baator:
-Ancient Baatorians
-Devils
-Baatezu
The Abyss:
-Demons
-Obyriths
-Tanar’ri
Gehenna:
-Baernaloths
-Yugoloths
And on and on...
The demon/devil divide never did anything for me, and I tend to blur them together, so these changes don't mean much to me. It's actually kind of nice seeing the old, jumbled mess that's grown over the years, helped by the Fundamentalist reaction in 2E, get cleaned up.:D
I'll still end up using my own system, though. :p
The planes are now radically different and seem far less interesting given all I've heard. They seem less about ideals and more about just being different, and without ideals how are they an afterlife?
They seem less about ideals and more about just being different, and without ideals how are they an afterlife?
Why should other planes be about ideals and the afterlife?
Early D&D was heavily into alignment (remember alignment languages, anyone?) and this transferred over to the planes and then they decided, what the hell, this is where you go when you die if you're alignment X.
I readily admit that I think a set alignment as a gameplay mechanic is silly and unrealistic, and that's probably a good part of why I'm not a huge fan of the Great Wheel as a base cosmology.
Do I think the new system will be better or even as good/interesting as the old one? Not really, and I've got a gut feeling it'll be something fairly craptacular, but I'm all for breaking up the finite alignment/afterlife planes and just saying "Hell is a plane". It takes the mystique away if you know where you end up when you die.
"Oh no, Grandpa Jim died! Let's see, he was Lawful Neutral, so let's go to a plane of big gears to see him. What's a gear? I dunno, since we live in the Neolithic and have never seen one, but I'm sure it's what he believed in. OPEN THE PLANAR PORTAL TO THE AFTERLIFE!" :p
(remember alignment languages, anyone?)
Yep.
'So, you speak LN too?!'
My only issue with these development updates is how much metaplot we will seem to be getting in the Core Rules, and how it seems like it's going to be inextricably linked to the mechanics.
Devils are who they are because of Asmodeus, the fallen angel. What if my campaign doesn't have room for fallen angels, but does have devils? Are the deviles going to be generic enough for me to use?
Demons appear to be elementals corrupted by a "seed of evil". Wow, that's a pretty specific origin for an entire class of extraplanar creatures. How easy will it be to use these demons in my own campaign, if my demons aren't to be related to elementals at all?
I've really like a lot of the mechanical changes I've been seeing from 3.5 to 4th. But between the article on wizards and now this one on demons and devils, I am quite concerned that 4th edition will be introducing a prominent meta-setting that may actively discourage homebrewed campaign worlds. I really hope this metasetting is not as prominent as the design and development articles make it seem.
I've really like a lot of the mechanical changes I've been seeing from 3.5 to 4th. But between the article on wizards and now this one on demons and devils, I am quite concerned that 4th edition will be introducing a prominent meta-setting that may actively discourage homebrewed campaign worlds. I really hope this metasetting is not as prominent as the design and development articles make it seem.
See my posts elsewhere for further discussion about this. This is a big concern for a lot of us longtime players, who have mostly long since disappeared into our own gameworlds.
This is a question the developers really need to answer: will the core 4E books be core RULE books or core SETTING books?
Its starting to look like one core to rule them all. I am so used to the wheel, its going to take time for this to sink in. I know change is good, it seems like they are tearing the foundation out of the game. The planes may still be a wheel, just different. Tomorrws article will shed more light on this topic. Hopefully its good
More like the Core is a world in itself, distinct and isolated.
The Core world is implied to be cut from the base classics or so, with a more generality design philosophy. AKA, back to the bases, simple to make an example.
D&D is not dumbing down; the core fluff is made to be basic and simple as an example of world making AND the rules in action. A demo, if you wish.
So they are replacing the old core fluff that wasn't connected to any setting to new core fluff that they are changing evry setting too match?
Sure thst is a great idera
So they are replacing the old core fluff that wasn't connected to any setting to new core fluff that they are changing evry setting too match?
Sure thst is a great idera
Among arguments given, it is said that the core should be basic AND generic, so we can have examples for world-making, a base.
The campaign settings override and overrule Core. Always did in every rpg.
So they are replacing the old core fluff that wasn't connected to any setting to new core fluff that they are changing evry setting too match?
That's a huge leap of logic. Why would they change every setting to use the core cosmology, especially after giving each setting its own cosmology in 3e?
'So, you speak LN too?!'
I'm sorry, I can't read this. Can you translate it to True Neutral? :P
Devils are who they are because of Asmodeus, the fallen angel. What if my campaign doesn't have room for fallen angels, but does have devils? Are the deviles going to be generic enough for me to use?
Demons appear to be elementals corrupted by a "seed of evil". Wow, that's a pretty specific origin for an entire class of extraplanar creatures. How easy will it be to use these demons in my own campaign, if my demons aren't to be related to elementals at all?
So far, devils have been the embodiment of Lawful Evil and demons have been the embodiment of Chaotic Evil. They have been engaged in the Blood War for millennia.
If this hasn't prevented you from using them in a campaign with different assumptions, then neither should the new flavor.
That's a huge leap of logic. Why would they change every setting to use the core cosmology, especially after giving each setting its own cosmology in 3e?
True it is a leap of logic but it is a rather small one. They are changing the way FR cosmolgy yet again in 4th. My guess it will match this core one. Since it is now going to be the standard RPGA world I am thinking alot of changes are going to make it as close to core as possible.
It has already been said that the way alignments are used is changing, the Nine Hells are an astral dominion among other deific abodes in the Astral Sea meaning that they may no longer be connected as they were on the Great Wheel.
The Abyss, which gapes like a festering wound in the landscape of the Elemental Tempest, sounds like the Elemental Planes won't have defined borders, but a continuous landscape comprised of all 4 elements. (possibly containing the Para & Quasi-elemental palnes also)
Of course this is all supposition on my part.
Bel
Look at FR, some people still consider it part of the Great Wheel/Planescape (like me) and others implement the new Tree cosmology.
Krynn, I still consider it part of Planescape and Takhisis is merely an aspect of Tiamat, but some people have embraced the new Cosmology that came along in the Dragonlance d20 hardcover.
Now Dark Sun was interesting, because in the Dragon Kings hardcover they suggested that it was in its own Alternate Material plane with its own Elemental planes etc, but the Spacefarers Handbook suggested that Dark Sun (athas) was part of the Planescape/Spelljammer cosmology in a closed crystal sphere. And in the 3.5 Dark Sun articles in Dragon they separated in into its own cosmology like FR, Krynn and Eberron.
Speaking of Eberron, I consider it part of the Great Wheel/Planescape in my current Planescape campaign, but that doesn't mean I couldn't run an Eberron campaign and use its particular cosmology.
So the only current official 3.5 campaign setting that uses the Great Wheel is Greyhawk.
This new 4th Ed cosmology is for the "Points of Light" implied setting – big deal.
So far, devils have been the embodiment of Lawful Evil and demons have been the embodiment of Chaotic Evil. They have been engaged in the Blood War for millennia.
True, but the Blood Wars had no mechanical effects on the demons and devils. You could get rid of the Blood War without having to rewrite the stat block of a single Outsider.
But is demons are now corrupted elementals and devils are now corrupted angels, that should be reflected in their mechanics. Devils should be corrupted versions of angels. Demons should be corrupted versions of elementals. That's a major change, if true, and one that is not nearly as easy to simply ignore.
Maybe it won't be that way. Maybe, despite being described as corrupted elementals, demons are just the embodiment of destructive evil. Maybe, despite being described as fallen angels, devils are simply the embodiment of scheming evil. That doesn't seem to be what they're describing though.
And that's why I have concerns.
"Finalized tomorrow's Design & Development article, taking a look at the game’s cosmology—exploring the feywild, the shadowfell, elemental chaos and astral sea. A very, very cool read, in my opinion."
-WotC Bart
The Great Wheel appears to be firmly dead,
Only for the "Points of Light" implied setting.
None of this has anything to do with someone's ongoing Birthright campaign or what have you
It's dead. Can it be renanimated? Sure.
By dead, I mean within the core setting. It means a "Manual of the Planes" won't have the Great Wheel in it.
Yes, but Greyhawk will still be part of the Great Wheel.
And first of all we don't know if there will be a 4th Ed Manual of the Planes, and who's to say if they do publish one there won't a Great Wheel option/variant/chapter etc?
And first of all we don't know if there will be a 4th Ed Manual of the Planes, and who's to say if they do publish one there won't a Great Wheel option/variant/chapter etc?
Dan, what's the deal. I pointed out that from the blog statement that you posted, the Great Wheel is apparently not core. I used the word "dead" to hit that point home. It's not like I'm crying the sky is falling or even saying that WotC was wrong to do it.
Dan, what's the deal. I pointed out that from the blog statement that you posted, the Great Wheel is apparently not core. I used the word "dead" to hit that point home. It's not like I'm crying the sky is falling or even saying that WotC was wrong to do it.
No big deal, I am not trying to be a knob or anything, I have always respected your opinions/posts, I was just mentioning that we don't know if the Great Wheel/Planescape will make an appearance in 4th Ed or not.
But yes, you are obviously right, as far as 4th Ed core, goodbye Great Wheel.
True, but the Blood Wars had no mechanical effects on the demons and devils. You could get rid of the Blood War without having to rewrite the stat block of a single Outsider.
But is demons are now corrupted elementals and devils are now corrupted angels, that should be reflected in their mechanics. Devils should be corrupted versions of angels. Demons should be corrupted versions of elementals. That's a major change, if true, and one that is not nearly as easy to simply ignore.
Maybe it won't be that way. Maybe, despite being described as corrupted elementals, demons are just the embodiment of destructive evil. Maybe, despite being described as fallen angels, devils are simply the embodiment of scheming evil. That doesn't seem to be what they're describing though.
And that's why I have concerns.
Fair enough.
A couple of things to keep in mind, though.
1) We don't yet know how much the corruption changed them. They might have become quite different from angels and elementals, in which case it would be easy to change the flavor.
2) We don't yet know what angels and elementals will be like in 4e. As for the latter, we know they're changing the elemental planes, so elementals themselves might be different. (EDIT: See my next post about the possibility of chaos elementals.)
But I do understand your concern now.
Has everyone seen:
"Finalized tomorrow's Design & Development article, taking a look at the game’s cosmology—exploring the feywild, the shadowfell, elemental chaos and astral sea. A very, very cool read, in my opinion."
-WotC Bart
Feywild? Does this mean fey will be getting some attention? I hope so!
Shadowfell. I guess we'll get a taste for this in April with Keep on the Shadowfell.
Elemental chaos... not sure what to make of that. Andy Collins seemed to suggest in his blog that Chaos will now mean something different. An element? It could be good, it could be bad, depending on how they go about it. I at least look forward to finding out.
EDIT: If chaos is an element, then perhaps demons are corrupted chaos elementals?
Thanks for posting this.
Shadowfell. I guess we'll get a taste for this in April with Keep on the Shadowfell.
Is it just me, or is WotC a bit shadow-happy? :p
Has everyone seen:
"Finalized tomorrow's Design & Development article, taking a look at the game’s cosmology—exploring the feywild, the shadowfell, elemental chaos and astral sea. A very, very cool read, in my opinion."
-WotC Bart
Yeah I have seen it. Now I am waiting for the article to be posted, curse you WotC or making me wait.
;) I really think that the normal assumtions(sp) about D&D no longer apply with 4E. If it can be changed, it will be changed.-WotC Bart
The term feywild is the first positive things I've seen or heard out of 4th Edition.
-
Just saw the article.....
Elemental chaos... not sure what to make of that. Andy Collins seemed to suggest in his blog that Chaos will now mean something different. An element? It could be good, it could be bad, depending on how they go about it. I at least look forward to finding out.
EDIT: If chaos is an element, then perhaps demons are corrupted chaos elementals?
Well, I was wrong about this, chaos is not described as an element. Probably a good thing.
The New Article is here. My comments on it can be found [thread=930073]here[/thread].
Thanks for the links.
I think its a lot more exciting than than what we have now.
I'm not sure I'd say that. I mean, as ponderous as some of the Great Wheel mess was, there was some cool stuff floating around out there. This just seems to have squished a lot of the planes we're used to into a few "easier" ones. I may be completely wrong, but I just get a strong flavor of dumbing down here.
I won't be using this anymore than I did the Great Wheel, but the individual planes were sometimes interesting enough to use. Maybe I'm just too used to planar stuff, but these just seem a bit too... basic(?) to me. Like someone just sat down with an old Manual of the Planes and a basic mythology book. Good enough for a home game, but I'd expect more from the professionals.
Maybe I'm just too used to planar stuff, but these just seem a bit too... basic(?) to me. Like someone just sat down with an old Manual of the Planes and a basic mythology book.
Personally, I think that's what makes it perfect for the default cosmology. It gives a little bit of flavor for those who want it, but don't want to spend the time making up their own, or who don't want to spend the money on a setting book.
That, and I like the flavor. But that's just a matter of taste.
Feywild looks promising...
Elemental Tempest. I like it. The Elemental Plane. Might be harder to locate that shard of para-elemental ice, though.
The Abyss I'm not sure about but will wait to see.
The Astral Sea. I like it. No character of mine ever actually walked from one plane to its neighboring plane. What if the GW was the Astral Sea all along? Sigil could still be in there, connecting all domains, and now you look at the unsimplified Planescape. I like it.
Some incredible possibilities floating in there. I wonder if the Mirror plane will end up as an "innerverse" so to speak. I don't want to loose the nerra.
I'm not sure I'd say that. I mean, as ponderous as some of the Great Wheel mess was, there was some cool stuff floating around out there. This just seems to have squished a lot of the planes we're used to into a few "easier" ones. I may be completely wrong, but I just get a strong flavor of dumbing down here.
I won't be using this anymore than I did the Great Wheel, but the individual planes were sometimes interesting enough to use. Maybe I'm just too used to planar stuff, but these just seem a bit too... basic(?) to me. Like someone just sat down with an old Manual of the Planes and a basic mythology book. Good enough for a home game, but I'd expect more from the professionals.
I personally think its more thought out than the Great Wheel, which to me always came off as "let's find a way to connected all our games even though they might not belong together." It was overly complex, in my opinion, and "dumbing it down" succeeds in making it a little more exciting... And most importantly usable.
I'm not sure I'd say that. I mean, as ponderous as some of the Great Wheel mess was, there was some cool stuff floating around out there. This just seems to have squished a lot of the planes we're used to into a few "easier" ones. I may be completely wrong, but I just get a strong flavor of dumbing down here.
I agree completely on the dumbing-down. It also feels like they're going way too much into the stereotypical, looking for instance at the examples: "The mist-shrouded winter realm of Letherna, where the fearsome Raven Queen rules over a kingdom of ghosts.", "The sinister castle of a shadar-kai lord, surrounded by a forest of black thorns." The Feywild looks an awful lot like Arborea so I wonder why they pick just that one, and not another plane. Is it to keep the elf-lovers happy (even with 2 feyish core races *sic*). It's all so darn simplistic.
Do note that I'm all in favor of the rules-changes, I am very excited about all that, but the new Lights setting (let's face it, it's a setting like any other) just gives me the creeps. It also feels to me that the Tiefling is the new Drow in the sense that a lot of the younger players will be choosing it because of the "darker" and "sinister" side. Certainly without the addition of the Aasimar.
(even with 2 feyish core races *sic*)
So, what two earthy races (gnomes and dwarves), two adventurous races (humans and halflings) and two mix-breed races (half-elf and half-orc) is problematic for you as well?
So, what two earthy races (gnomes and dwarves), two adventurous races (humans and halflings) and two mix-breed races (half-elf and half-orc) is problematic for you as well?
With feyish races I mean elfish races of course, it's like putting wild elves and wood elves in the PHB. I'd have no issue with faeries and elves for instance. But a wise elf and an intelligent elf, for me as a player and a DM, is not needed.
It also feels to me that the Tiefling is the new Drow in the sense that a lot of the younger players will be choosing it because of the "darker" and "sinister" side. Certainly without the addition of the Aasimar.
That's the vibe I'm getting, too.
As for new elves, if there's anything WoW taught us, it's that you can't give people too many elves. :p
So all planes surrounding the Great Ring are now dominions in the Astral Sea. People could easily make FR, Eberron or Dragonlance dominions. I would look at it in the same way that Points of light is a dominion in the Astral Sea. I do wonder why the Feywild is an exception to this. If they want to go with this, they might as well go all the way through by making everything a dominion/realm in the Astral Sea.
The first thing about 4e that I think I like.
New islands can appear on the astral sea and DMs wishing to continue with the great wheel can decide where the islands might fit in the wheel (I.E. new cogs on Mechanus or layers in the Abyss).
Not really necessary for the most part. The Astral Sea is really just the new vision of the Astral Plane. If one wants to keep the Great Wheel, then islands corresponding to existing planes on the Great Wheel can simply be viewed as astral portals, and any islands that don't exist on the Great Wheel can be independent planes.
The new cosmology seems generic enough to incorporate many other cosmologies into it. And judging from Rich Baker's blog post (that someone recently linked to), that may be what they were going for.
The new cosmology seems generic enough to incorporate many other cosmologies into it. And judging from Rich Baker's blog post (that someone recently linked to), that may be what they were going for.
Yeah, as caeruleus said, we now have a sort of "meta-cosmology".
The Feywild and Shadowfell are damn cool, but I am especially loving the Astral Sea. It brings to mind the image of a group of adventurers aboard a great big astral ship, battling pirates, monsters and other nastiness, and sailing off to only the gods know where, which is an image I very much love. Anything could be out there.
Not really necessary for the most part. The Astral Sea is really just the new vision of the Astral Plane. If one wants to keep the Great Wheel, then islands corresponding to existing planes on the Great Wheel can simply be viewed as astral portals, and any islands that don't exist on the Great Wheel can be independent planes.
The new cosmology seems generic enough to incorporate many other cosmologies into it. And judging from Rich Baker's blog post (that someone recently linked to), that may be what they were going for.
If the rumors be true and the planes are no longer tied to a specific alignment then I would prefer new names and not worry about differentiating between the not necessarily LG Mt. Celestia Port in the astral sea and the necessarily LG plane on the great whee.
Also if I decide to abandon the idea of an astral sea I want to be able to attempt to fit the islands to the planes most suitable (whenever possible of course) and not have to constantly map island name with a new name and island name with a best fit plane.
If the rumors be true and the planes are no longer tied to a specific alignment then I would prefer new names and not worry about differentiating between the not necessarily LG Mt. Celestia Port in the astral sea and the necessarily LG plane on the great whee.
That's why Tenzhi qualified it with if one wants to keep the Great Wheel.
for me as a player and a DM, is not needed.
But for the me, it is needed, and as it seems the Dev's agree.
I wonder what book the planes will appear in? PHB, DMG, or a new Manual of the Planes.
There'll be bits of them in all of them! The PHB will have a planar race (tieflings), the DMG will have the usual "oho, you can go to the planes, donchaknow", the MM will have all the beasties you'll need, and the Manual of the Planes will give you the setting details. Best way of spreading the money around. :p
Hmmm... I wonder if the core books will be a decent $20 each, or if it'll be the stupid $35-40 range. What a silly question!
There'll be bits of them in all of them! The PHB will have a planar race (tieflings), the DMG will have the usual "oho, you can go to the planes, donchaknow", the MM will have all the beasties you'll need, and the Manual of the Planes will give you the setting details. Best way of spreading the money around. :p
Hmmm... I wonder if the core books will be a decent $20 each, or if it'll be the stupid $35-40 range. What a silly question!
Not a silly question at all. Amazon says the PHB is $34.95.
There'll be bits of them in all of them! The PHB will have a planar race (tieflings), the DMG will have the usual "oho, you can go to the planes, donchaknow", the MM will have all the beasties you'll need, and the Manual of the Planes will give you the setting details. Best way of spreading the money around. :p
Tieflings AND Eladrin, from what we can tell are effectively planetouched elves.
Tieflings AND Eladrin, from what we can tell are effectively planetouched elves.
Where did you see that Tieflings are planetouched elves?
Where did you see that Tieflings are planetouched elves?
I believe that last bit was intended to be solely directed at the Eladrin.
I believe that last bit was intended to be solely directed at the Eladrin.
Listen to this man, he speaks the truth.
I'm not sure I'd say that. I mean, as ponderous as some of the Great Wheel mess was, there was some cool stuff floating around out there. This just seems to have squished a lot of the planes we're used to into a few "easier" ones. I may be completely wrong, but I just get a strong flavor of dumbing down here.
I won't be using this anymore than I did the Great Wheel, but the individual planes were sometimes interesting enough to use. Maybe I'm just too used to planar stuff, but these just seem a bit too... basic(?) to me. Like someone just sat down with an old Manual of the Planes and a basic mythology book. Good enough for a home game, but I'd expect more from the professionals.
In the article, there are the names of some of the planes included as Astral "islands," so the planes are still there, just disconnected. The Great Wheel got a flat tire, as it were ;). In my cosmology, the Great Wheel was always separate planes connected by portals/vortices rather than physically traversible; the planes just happened to have more connections between "adjecent" planes, so sages et al. used the Great Wheel as a convenient theoretical construct.
The Astral Sea approach is great for someone who likes parts of the Great Wheel but not all of it, or wants to add stuff to it, because there's always room to add or subtract without the Wheel structure in the way.
The part about the Astral Sea is interesting: "Some of these are realms of glory and splendor—the golden peak of Mount Celestia, the verdant forests of Arvandor...", "...overlooks the war-torn plains of Acheron...", "...hidden in the depths of Pandemonium...", "Some dominions, such as the Nine Hells, ..."
So all planes surrounding the Great Ring are now dominions in the Astral Sea. People could easily make FR, Eberron or Dragonlance dominions. I would look at it in the same way that Points of light is a dominion in the Astral Sea. I do wonder why the Feywild is an exception to this. If they want to go with this, they might as well go all the way through by making everything a dominion/realm in the Astral Sea.
Like I said, everything is still there, and you can add as much as you want to it. I do think the Feywild works better as it is now, though, because (A) the myths of a coexistant faerie world are fairly prevalent; (B) even if they want to de-emphasize the Ethereal and Shadow, a point-to-point coexistant plane is convenient from a fluff and crunch point of view; and (C) having coexistent planes makes the Material Plane more than just another plane in the Astral, justifying outsiders' interest in it and its importance to the cosmology and the PCs.
I can't say I'm thrilled about this. But if WotC goes ahead and says the great whell is done we need something new they should pick new names. That way all the bagage a name like the Abyss or Mt. Celestia, or The Clockwrok Nirvana can be obliterated. New islands can appear on the astral sea and DMs wishing to continue with the great wheel can decide where the islands might fit in the wheel (I.E. new cogs on Mechanus or layers in the Abyss). And if DMs want to blow up thier great wheel they can make each layer an island in the sea and never need to worry about having two islands with the same name.
Why get rid of the names? Keep the old names for people who like them and make new planes for those who don't. I can see the Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus remaining as-is, for example, while adding a Pneumatic Heaven of [Whatever] with pistons instead of gears (and with a better name) would let you put a twist on the "super-orderly perfectly-lawful mechanical plane" concept.
If the rumors be true and the planes are no longer tied to a specific alignment then I would prefer new names and not worry about differentiating between the not necessarily LG Mt. Celestia Port in the astral sea and the necessarily LG plane on the great whee.
Also if I decide to abandon the idea of an astral sea I want to be able to attempt to fit the islands to the planes most suitable (whenever possible of course) and not have to constantly map island name with a new name and island name with a best fit plane.
Like I said, you can make as many variations on a theme as you like. Keep Celestia, add Archonia; keep Acheron, add Charon. In the worst case scenario, redundant planes can map back to the Great Wheel as new/split/shifted layers.
You resurrect a thread from being two months dead to only post a "bump" smiley and nearly a full page of signature block?
Congratulations: You have invented Anti-Contenttm.
Please enjoy the unraveling of all human knowledge and the subsequent decay into madness and looting.
