So, given that, I would like to open this space up for anyone who has suggestions or feedback for athas.org. When this thread dies down, I'll take the info and present it to the templarate for consideration. The next revision will look at your suggestions.
i have not been researching 4e at all so i can't help with rule suggestions, but i hope my comment is recieved by the right people in a positive way. i really hope Athas.org keeps putting out quality material for 3.5.
Again i am really looking forward to the release of deadlands,Athasian Emporium, City-State of Balic and Legends of Athas. i am abit nervious about deadlands because i see nothing on it at all. i am sure i can find a way to convert 4e to 3.5 if i must, it will just be harder for a newbie like myself.
also if a 3.5 deadlands suppliment is impossible, maybe i can get some help converting the 4e material you put out. little by little if possible. but i understand if that too is not possible. too much work, too little time + daily life = a big pain.
thanks for all the effort.
I was never a fan of the 3.5 templar. I always felt that it was a very watered down cleric. The templar would have been better rendered being a class similar to the begulier and warmage.
I really liked your Templar for what its worth. The Athas.org one was kinda lame. I would have pirated your one and made it the "official" templar maybe with a few tweaks to the spell list- Flameblae, lightning bolt etc. I think its time to throw out a few sacred cows for Darksun though. I'm not sure how talents in 4th ed will work but here goes.
1. Gladiator class should be folded into the Fighter class.
2. Templar should either be a Cleric of some description or as a stand alone class have secular authority removed as a class feature.
3. Focus on the DS core rulebook rather than branch off into other projects.
4. Make Dragons/Avangions NPCs only.
5. Quiety drop/retcon Paraelemental Clerics or make them elemental heretics that somehow steal spell power from the elemental planes. Or at least reintroduce them later in a supplement
6. Have a small section on Athasian Cosmology.
7. Advance the timeline to either the Dragon/Dungeon timeline or Free year 15ish after Dregoth Ascending.
8. Do a kreen invasion adventure path or module or even an Athasian Adventure path- get submissions from ppl on these boards for help.
9. More Sorceror Kings. Make up a plotline with new elemental vortexs or another way to grant Templar spells but limit it to NPCs.
Around 1 year ago, I started collecting information about what people didn't like about DS3, and the two most popular complaints were: the changes the races suffered in the conversion (most people don't understand how abilities work in 3.5), which could be addressed by having more Behind the Veil section explaining why certain changes were made;
I'm one of them. I really don't understand DMG 173 table (ability scores equivalencies). I think it could be more acceptable in Ad&d, but not in 3.5!!!
the other is the defiling rules, which some found confusing, others didn't find appealing enough.
UNDOUBTEDLY!!! The defiler must be "stronger" and "faster advance" than preserver. In 3.5, we aro not allowed make the level advance different betwen the classes, but we cannot be stucked and transform 2 different classes melted into one. In my campaign, I allow the defiler to access more spells/day (one bonus spell/level/day). That is not perfect, but works better.
I will comment about psionics later.
Tarlyn Veladorn
1. Gladiator class should be folded into the Fighter class.
Not personally fond of that one. I like the Gladiator personally as a separate class.
2. Templar should either be a Cleric of some description or as a stand alone class have secular authority removed as a class feature.
I personally believe that the Templar could use some work, true, but folding it into a Cleric opens a number of cans of worms, particularly with things like the Advanced Beings project, where Templars don't have an option (for what I think are obvious reasons), while Clerics do.
3. Focus on the DS core rulebook rather than branch off into other projects.
You know, it's amazing how many people are divided on that. I'd say that over the years, it's a 50/50 split on this forum alone where people want focus on new products, or people who want focus on the core rules. When Athas.org was really heavily focused on the core rules to the exclusion of all else, the result was a lot of screaming here that nothing new was coming out, just re-hashing and updating of the same old rules time and again. Now that Athas.org is expanding on new things, it's like people are wanting Athas.org to work on the core rules...
4. Make Dragons/Avangions NPCs only.
I'm strongly opposed to that. They shouldn't be a breeze for players to become, and in my own campaigns, I have some rather stringent rules that makes it very hard for characters to be able to become them, things that require *heavy* amounts of *good* roleplaying to achieve. but completely blocking access to the Dragons/Avangions cuts off options for DMs, and that's not the point of what Athas.org does.
5. Quiety drop/retcon Paraelemental Clerics or make them elemental heretics that somehow steal spell power from the elemental planes. Or at least reintroduce them later in a supplement
I dislike that one as well, only because I think the dynamics of the Elemental and Paraelementals works quite well, at least in my running of Dark Sun. The Paraelementals exist in the materials -- sure, the later materials for the most part, but they are there. And personally, I really stoke up the differences between the two "factions" of sorts -- the Balance-focused Elementals vs the Expansion of Power-focused Paraelementals.
6. Have a small section on Athasian Cosmology.
That I can see as a good thing.
7. Advance the timeline to either the Dragon/Dungeon timeline or Free year 15ish after Dregoth Ascending.
Not sure I like that. FY10 is a good starting point, since it allows far easier integration with the old rules. Athas.org can't simply republish the setting/story material that is already in existence, and it takes a pretty herculean effort to completely update the material even with a 5 year gap, and then completely having to write it from scratch to boot, with editing, revisions, etc.
8. Do a kreen invasion adventure path or module or even an Athasian Adventure path- get submissions from ppl on these boards for help.
That's a cool idea.
9. More Sorceror Kings. Make up a plotline with new elemental vortexs or another way to grant Templar spells but limit it to NPCs.
I'm not sure I like that idea. I could see maybe an "alternate rule/idea" book which might include such a thing, but personally, I like there being a very limited set of SK's. You yourself only want Dragons/Avangions to be restricted to NPCs, but then you want to make the option for new SKs? I guess it's your choice, but it should remain such as that -- a choice. The rules are in place for people to be able to make a new SK, with only needing to invent a couple of details. But officially stating that new SKs are coming around all the time... that seems to be a stretch, and it tends to take more away from the setting as it stands than adds to it.
Anyway, these are mostly my personal opinions on what you said, and shouldn't be construed as anything official from Athas.org. I'm just not personally fond of making rules that restrict/limit a DM by cutting down options, and some of the ideas you presented are really not practical when you look deeper into it (like advancing the storyline/timeline).
I like the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) theory. 3rd ed changed the planes and I don't see why you couldn't do the same to Athas as Paraelemental planes are kinda stupid really and I liked how the core rules removed the quasi elemental planes. I honestly think no one would really care about teh Paraelemental Clerics that much except maybe the hard core purists.
I'm not saying new Sorceror Kings would pop up all the time but officially Atzetuk can now grant his Templars spells somehow for example. You wouldn't need to do alot to advance the timeline to even 1 year after Dregoth Ascending. Dregoth, Deadlands, Kreen 3 big hooks in the revised boxed set and 2 of them have been covered already in 3.5. Kreen time baby
Theres been alot of good ideas on the boards here and I don't see why some of them couldn't have been added to the DS3.5 PDF- Sysane's Templar for example.
Well as I said it depends on how Talents work in 4th ed. They may make certain types of classes all but obsolete- Gladiator espicially.
I really don't know.
I like the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) theory. 3rd ed changed the planes and I don't see why you couldn't do the same to Athas as Paraelemental planes are kinda stupid really and I liked how the core rules removed the quasi elemental planes. I honestly think no one would really care about teh Paraelemental Clerics that much except maybe the hard core purists.
Then call me a purist. I've spent a lot of time and energy fleshing out the differences, motivations, and capabilities of the four Elements and four Paraelements. to the point now that if they were officially taken out of the materials, that would irk me a bit.
I'm not saying new Sorceror Kings would pop up all the time but officially Atzetuk can now grant his Templars spells somehow for example. You wouldn't need to do alot to advance the timeline to even 1 year after Dregoth Ascending. Dregoth, Deadlands, Kreen 3 big hooks in the revised boxed set and 2 of them have been covered already in 3.5. Kreen time baby
Officially, Atzetuk can grant his Templars spells only in the DS3 that was devised by Paizo, and is completely independent of Athas.org's works. The two are really quite mutually exclusive in a number of ways. Personally, I loathe and dispise the notion that Atzetuk can grant Templar spells -- to me, it takes away the novelty and uniqueness of what the Sorcerer-Kings are, it takes away what could be an interesting development of Draj where it does *not* have a real Sorcerer-King, and it attempts to homogenize the setting a bit too much.
Theres been alot of good ideas on the boards here and I don't see why some of them couldn't have been added to the DS3.5 PDF- Sysane's Templar for example.
I'll agree, the Templar does need help. I like the idea of them being a spontaneous spellcaster, personally. I'm not really fond of how complex the Secular Authority ability had developed to, it just doesn't personally feel right. I vaguely remember Sysane's Templars, but it's been a long, long time since I've really looked at the rules.
(1) I think the athas.org Templar is awesome.. Keep it.
(2) Please, if you come out with any fluff, update it to 300 years after the Prism Pentad.
(3) Please create something about a Kreen invasion (that takes place 300 years after the Prism Pentad, of course)
(4) Generally keep up the good work.
I like Athas.org Templars too. They could be modified (a little), but that's not really a must.
I think Psionics should be "re-thinked". They became another "spell-like" class...
And there are some loose ends...
Mind Lords can't be explained in 3.5 psionic rules, e.g.
Tarlyn Veladorn
Mind Lords can't be explained in 3.5 psionic rules
That I do not agree with. But you'll need to wait for Legends of Athas to understand why :P
That I do not agree with. But you'll need to wait for Legends of Athas to understand why :P
Hey, "extraplanar" knowledge is not fair :D ...looks like great news.
Anyway there's no time travel psi-power in 3.5, am I right?
Tarlyn Veladorn
I have just no DS ideas about 4e, and I shall have got none at least until I see 4e rules about multiclassing and psionics - the two things that make the most drastical differences between 2e and 3e DS.
As for continuing 3 (.5 for purists, though I see no difference for DS here) e product line, the most wanted product is a sort of Planar Handbook indeed, where all cosmological issues that remain unclear from 2e products will be set once and forever.
I do not expect any major revision of already issued rules, but if occurs, it should include:
- An incorporation of Paizo rules for defiling, since the existing are awful.
- A complete revision of now poor templar class.
- A revision of cumbersome system of clerical domains.
- Making ranger non-casting.
- An eradication of wilder and introduction of erudite.
- A revision of races that makes them more alike the 2e ones. A good guideline is doubling the 2e ability modifiers instead of inventing new ones.
- Especially, making half-giants as unbalanced as they were in 2e. Maybe even with 2 HD/level.
- A complete banishment of wooden swords etc., since the sane people should make clubs instead.
- As for dragons/avangions, I barely imagine how to make them symmetrical to magic and psionics, but it would be great if it is done somehow.
Well, here is a sort of wish list, isn't it?
I have just no DS ideas about 4e, and I shall have got none at least until I see 4e rules about multiclassing and psionics - the two things that make the most drastical differences between 2e and 3e DS.
Multiclassing may be difficult, but is essential that psionics being revised. (people don't miss ADD DS psi-powers?)
As for continuing 3 (.5 for purists, though I see no difference for DS here) e product line, the most wanted product is a sort of Planar Handbook indeed, where all cosmological issues that remain unclear from 2e products will be set once and forever.
This would be good!!!
I do not expect any major revision of already issued rules, but if occurs, it should include:[LIST=1][*]An incorporation of Paizo rules for defiling, since the existing are awful.
This could work as a DM's option.
[*]A complete revision of now poor templar class.
I don't they are so poor, but yes, they could be better.
[*]A revision of cumbersome system of clerical domains.
Good. EAFandW is a good beggining. There are too many domains now - forget about then and make only element based spells.
[*]Making ranger non-casting.
OK, but that doesn't interfere too much
[*]An eradication of wilder and introduction of erudite.
I use a home made psionic version of classes and powers (ability score based) that works good, and power scores and critical failures still can be used.
[*]A revision of races that makes them more alike the 2e ones. A good guideline is doubling the 2e ability modifiers instead of inventing new ones.
Excelent, that's what I already do in my campaign, and work fine (very).
[*]Especially, making half-giants as unbalanced as they were in 2e. Maybe even with 2 HD/level.
No doubt about that, they should be 1/2giants instead 1/4giant (as in 3.5). 2hd/level maybe is too much, but a "natural" toughness feat every other level can be reasoneable.
[*]A complete banishment of wooden swords etc., since the sane people should make clubs instead.
I don't think so. In maths terms this make sense, but not in role terms (IMHO).
[*]As for dragons/avangions, I barely imagine how to make them symmetrical to magic and psionics, but it would be great if it is done somehow.
Dragons are tougher than Avangions (even in ADD rules). So, Avangions are powerful beings, but Dragons Rules!! Literally
Tarlyn Veladorn
I like the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) theory. 3rd ed changed the planes and I don't see why you couldn't do the same to Athas as Paraelemental planes are kinda stupid really and I liked how the core rules removed the quasi elemental planes. I honestly think no one would really care about teh Paraelemental Clerics that much except maybe the hard core purists.
Why do you think Paraelemental Planes and Paraelemental Clerics are stupid?
AZAZEL
Why do you think Paraelemental Planes and Paraelemental Clerics are stupid?
AZAZEL
Just didn't think Earth, Air, Fire, Water was that good of a 2nd ed sourcebook. Was it Troy Deenning who also hated them? They were barely mentioned in any other DS product with the rare NPC in various DS books.
3rd edition got rid of the quasi elemental planes and in reality they should have just been areas of other planes where elemental matter mixed not separate planes.
The Athas.org ones don't have very ggod spell lists although alot of the spells in the DS 3 core book are in need of work Oasis for example) and someone from Athas.org didn't even know who actually designed Darksun Clerics. The spell domains are also weird. Why can't elemental Clerics just pick Air/Earth/Fire/Water domains from the PHB and one other domain of their choice?
Sun paraelemental clerics have the sun domain, the spell compendium has a domain (Windstorm?) you can easily rename Rain domain and I made up a silt and magma domain for my own games.
Theres been alot of feedbackin the 2 years I've been in the DS boards about Clerics/Templar or whatever and it seems like everyone gets ignored even when more than a few suggestions are better than existing rules. Or is it to hard to have a side bar saying if the Spell Compendium/Complete Divine is used we recommend the following domains.
Clerics on Eberron have relaxed alignment rules about spells cast and I used Eberrons rules in DS in regards to elemental clerics. Why would the elements care if a good cleric uses an evil spell or vice versa?
Athas.org Clerics need tweaked, the Templar needs to be scrapped and replaced with a new Templar. Just small things that irritated me in 2nd ed being carried over to 3.5- Gladiator as a class not profession. Most gladiators would be fighters with a few barbarians,rangers, rogues, or multiclass combinations there of. Pick your feats/skills for a arena style fight.
Athas.org asks for feedback, gets it and seems to ignore it or more or less say we know better than you or say that we complain to much. To be fair I'm happy with the majority of their work but you tend to only hear about complaints and internet forums tend to be rather opinionated
paraelementalists are awesome. losing them would be a mistake. if anything add to them.
I totally agree with KotWR, the Elemental and para gives a LOT of flavor to our setting, made by athas.org. It does not just give a lot of flavor, it gives a HUGE LOAD of flavor.
I am all in the way of having particular things in our beloved setting : Gladiator, Templar, Elemental cleric with REAL made DS domain and eventually the return of the Trader ;) .
Wild talents should have been further developed than they were. Feat chains and PrCs that focused on a wild/hidden talents makes sense for a campaign world where they're more prevalent than in other worlds.
Wild talents should have been further developed than they were.
Yes, I remember we both had ideas for those. If we somehow managed to merge the two, we would have something really good in there... :D
Yes, I remember we both had ideas for those. If we somehow managed to merge the two, we would have something really good in there... :D
Exactly. The general concept was prefect and made sense for DS.
Just didn't think Earth, Air, Fire, Water was that good of a 2nd ed sourcebook. Was it Troy Deenning who also hated them? They were barely mentioned in any other DS product with the rare NPC in various DS books.
I'm not sure if Troy Denning hated the Paraelemental Clerics or not. Regardless of that I believe they are a colorful addition to the setting and should not be scrapped. I also believe that Earth Air Fire and Water is an essential source book that really gives a lot of insight into the cleric class. It also introduces DM's and Players to Elemental Shrines which i think are super kool! It also really makes Clerics mean machines with their granted powers. I remember playing a Sun Cleric and having great fun blasting opponents with a Sunray! Worked great on undead creatures!!!
The spell domains are also weird. Why can't elemental Clerics just pick Air/Earth/Fire/Water domains from the PHB and one other domain of their choice?
I think the Clerical spell domains presented in the Dark Sun 3.5 rulebook were intended to bring a level of distance from the core Players Handbook. The new domains really make Dark Sun Clerics, "Dark Sun Clerics," and not a rehash of the generic Players Handbook Cleric. I like the domains as they are as they have a distinct Dark sun feel to them.
The Templar needs to be scrapped and replaced with a new Templar. Just small things that irritated me in 2nd ed being carried over to 3.5- Gladiator as a class not profession. Most gladiators would be fighters with a few barbarians,rangers, rogues, or multiclass combinations there of. Pick your feats/skills for a arena style fight.
THIS is where we start to agree Zardnaar! (See we can't disagree on everything!) I think that the Templar class should be NPC only. I just don't see Templars adventuring outside their respective cities borders.
The Gladiator class should be NPC only as well. Gladiators are owned by Nobles, Templars, and Merchants (some by the Sorcerer Kings themselves) and are not allowed to adventure. Even if they did escape the city walls how would they survive? They have no survival skills whatsoever and everything they have ever had has been given to them as Gladiators.
Absolutely keep Templars and Gladiators just not as PC's
Another observation.
Wild talents should have been further developed than they were. Feat chains and PrCs that focused on a wild/hidden talents makes sense for a campaign world where they're more prevalent than in other worlds.
This sounds kool!
AZAZEL
AZAZEL
We also can't use stuff from other Wizards' products: for example, we can't use domains from Forgotten Realms (or whatever); we either have to use the basics (PHB, DMG, MM or PsiHB) or make our own. Perhaps we should include more sidebars for suggestions.
We also have to work within the restrictions of the D&D system: we can't make things unbalanced (like faster defiler progression).
Regarding DS3.5, I never liked the templar's secualr authority rules. The gladiator wasn't realy intresting, and the defiling rules were horrible (IMHO). One big problem I had was the amount magic in the world – but that wasn't the fault of athas.org, but the fundamental mechanics of D&D 3.5. It's hard for me to say how things should change in DS4, beacause I don't know much how D&D4th is going to look like. But as far as I've seen it D&D 4th could be a good thing for DS.
We also can't use stuff from other Wizards' products: for example, we can't use domains from Forgotten Realms (or whatever); we either have to use the basics (PHB, DMG, MM or PsiHB) or make our own. Perhaps we should include more sidebars for suggestions.
Ok. But conversions form DS 2ed can be used, cannot? So; the will and the way, dragon kings and earth,air,fire and water are good sources of spells and psi-poewrs to be converted to 3.5. Giving a lot of flavour to our campaigns.
If we cut off gladiators, templars, elemental clerics, powerful mages (that's a deflier) and a little unbalenced races, I think is better play Forgotten Realms in Anauroch desert.
Tarlyn Veladorn
Ok. But conversions form DS 2ed can be used, cannot? So; the will and the way, dragon kings and earth,air,fire and water are good sources of spells and psi-poewrs to be converted to 3.5. Giving a lot of flavour to our campaigns.
We looked to those sources to develop a lot of our core DS spells & powers, and we're looking there as well to develop Epic spells and powers.
But I'll repeat, I think we should have a complete moratorium on rules development until 4e comes out, and focus entirely on story "fluff" development. I don't see the point in developing stuff that's going to be obselete in 9 months or so.
As for advancing the timeline, Dregoth Ascending advanced to Free Year 13, and LCotTP advances to year 14. The TSR plan before the collapse was to advance the timeline 1 year for every earth year, and I'd like to get back on that track. So expect Athas.org to advance to Free Year 300 by mid 2302.
So; the will and the way, dragon kings and earth,air,fire and water are good sources of spells and psi-poewrs to be converted to 3.5.
Yes. Most of them were converted and will be in r7, or DS4, or... er.. whatever...
Yes. Most of them were converted and will be in r7, or DS4, or... er.. whatever...
Hey man, you are truly a DS "preserver" ;)
Tarlyn Veladorn
I would still like to see a revision to the core rules before 4th ed as not everyone will update straight away and theres always a few holdouts. It would also give you a final class to. Stuff in need of most work IMHO before 4th ed.
Templars
Defilers
Gladiator
Seems to be alot of negative feedbackon these classes and they're a bit clunky. I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this in 4th ed for classes.
Warrior (Fighter,Barbarian, Paladin,Ranger)
Mage (Wizard, Defiler,
Priest (Druid, Cleric, Templar, Favoured Soul)
Rogue (Rogue, Bard)
Skirmisher (Monk, Scout, Ranger?)
And you select your talents to build your class. a 3.5 Fighter/Ranger would just be a warrior with Ranger and Fighter type talents. Athas.org would only have to design Templar and Gladiator talents.
But I'll repeat, I think we should have a complete moratorium on rules development until 4e comes out, and focus entirely on story "fluff" development. I don't see the point in developing stuff that's going to be obselete in 9 months or so.
I agree! More story and less rules!
AZAZEL
some rules are needed. like basic profession/classes, levels and abilities. without those DS becomes a storm of fandom.
how will athas.org handle this?
i am not opposed to lots of storyline (fluff) but how can it be used beyond story? if we find out their is an ancient goblin lich ruling the deadlands with his 10,000 kobold skeleton assassins how do we know what stats to give it? or will it turn into a "its your world, do what you want" aspect, which i believe should be avoided.
or will there no longer be any npcs,spells,items to be used? it will all just be story? can i get an exsample of how this will be done and how players/dms can find the closest stats and power ranges without any rules?
thanks.
[edit] wotc is making being a dnd player very difficult. not to mention being a dm. while trying to stay current.
I also believe that the Dray should be included as a playable Race? Your thoughts???
AZAZEL
i forget but one of the things i downloaded has 1st and 2nd generation dray as playable. i also found a Draconian listing, which i love IN KRYNN, but no dracos in athas please. Dray yes! Draconians no! besides, to my knowledge all the Real Dragons of the "before the blue age" were either wiped out or used by rajaat.
I forget but one of the things i downloaded has 1st and 2nd generation dray as playable. i also found a Draconian listing, which i love IN KRYNN, but no dracos in athas please. Dray yes! Draconians no! besides, to my knowledge all the Real Dragons of the "before the blue age" were either wiped out or used by rajaat.
City by the Silt Sea has both first and second generation Dray as Playable Races. I think it would stand to reason to include them as Playable Races since I'm sure many Dray would abandon Dregoth after he fails to conquer Raam and fails in his attempts to become a God. This is of course how things played out in my champaign....
AZAZEL
City by the Silt Sea has both first and second generation Dray as Playable Races. I think it would stand to reason to include them as Playable Races since I'm sure many Dray would abandon Dregoth after he fails to conquer Raam and fails in his attempts to become a God. This is of course how things played out in my champaign....
AZAZEL
my old dm moved after DA. so havnt played passed that, we played for a very long time, i myself am about to begin a DS game for the first time in several years as the DM and am thinking about resetting everything back to FreeYear -10. so the players get to feel everything out before Kalak dies. so Dray wont become available for the first year or two of gaming.
my old dm moved after DA. so havnt played passed that, we played for a very long time, i myself am about to begin a DS game for the first time in several years as the DM and am thinking about resetting everything back to FreeYear -10. so the players get to feel everything out before Kalak dies. so Dray wont become available for the first year or two of gaming.
Sounds good! Keep Dark Sun alive!
AZAZEL
Sounds good! Keep Dark sun alive!
AZAZEL
Yup! its just a pain running 3 seperate settings, each with mutlipul games going on... Darksun, Dragonlance and a fandom version of Mystara. i am in the process of gathering info to run Ravenloft and Planescape also.
I'm a bit tired...
[edit] what year does this Kreen invasion take place?
thanks!
What year does this Kreen invasion take place?
That's up in the air.....
At the time of the Second and revised Boxed Set the Empire was just sending lone scouts into the Tablelands although I get the feeling they were preparing for invasion at that time. As far as when the actual invasion takes place......I guess thats up to you as Dungeon Master!!!
AZAZEL
i don't have the revised box set. so i have no idea if the great quake and all that happens before DA or after. it could be free year -100 for all i know!
The great Earthquake occurs in Free Year 10 right after the event's in the Prism Pentad series.
AZAZEL
AZAZEL
I also think that having Preservers and Defilers as separate and distinct classes rather than grouping them both as Wizard is the way to go.
AZAZEL
The decision to make them one class came down from WotC, if memory serves.
The decision to make them one class came down from WotC, if memory serves.
Why does that not surprise me?
AZAZEL
Why does that not surprise me?
AZAZEL
Personally, I like the idea of them being one class, rather than two. But that's because I also permit Sorcerers, and I have my Sorcerers divided between Preservers and Defilers (my Wizards are more likely to be Preserver than Defiler, and my Sorcerers are more prone to being Defiler than Preserver, but I leave both as options) -- since it is possible for a character to go from Preserver to Defiler pretty easily (harder to go the other way around). Of course, I also have borrowed the Defiler rules from Paizo's version, removed the T'Liz reference, and retrofitted the Defilers with rules on addiction from the Book of Vile Darkness, resulting in making them very seductive, but also very, very hard to stop being a Defiler (potentially killing the spellcaster).
Personally, I like the idea of them being one class, rather than two. But that's because I also permit Sorcerers, and I have my Sorcerers divided between Preservers and Defilers (my Wizards are more likely to be Preserver than Defiler, and my Sorcerers are more prone to being Defiler than Preserver, but I leave both as options) -- since it is possible for a character to go from Preserver to Defiler pretty easily (harder to go the other way around). Of course, I also have borrowed the Defiler rules from Paizo's version, removed the T'Liz reference, and retrofitted the Defilers with rules on addiction from the Book of Vile Darkness, resulting in making them very seductive, but also very, very hard to stop being a Defiler (potentially killing the spellcaster).
Dare I say it??!! I actually like Paizo's rules about Defiling....
AZAZEL
With the PC classes in saga edition, every level you either get a bonus feat or a new talent, and they alternated. The difference is that talents are exclusive to a class, whereas bonus feats are not. Bonus feats for saga edition (which every class has) are comparable to the feats that fighters got every other level: they came from a specific list, but were from the list of feats that anyone could take for their every-third-level feats, so they could be taken by other classes. Talents are comparable to Barbarian Rage, or Ranger's Favored Enemies, but you get to choose which ones you take. In that sense, I think that Gladiator can be folded into Fighter as a talent tree. The individual flavor will be there (with enough Gladiator Talents, a true gladiator will never take any other talent trees), but it'll keep with the 4e style of simplifying the class system. Any specialty your character has can still be enhanced through prestige classes, which aren't going away (and will have their own talents). The druid will probably also be folded into the cleric, so the same should be said for the Templar. Every feature they currently have can easily be converted into talents.
This could especially be a boon for wizards in Dark Sun, as the defiler can now be a restricted talent tree. This will allow them to possibly get to the level of power they were in 2nd edition D&D, which many people here will be happy about (like me). Maybe it'll open the way to preserver talent trees which will bring their power level up as well. This should all be fine and balanceable so long as we remember that the same talent trees that'll bring magic power up can be used for every other class as well.
As for races, I hear the the new standard will be that theoretically anything can be playable as a race. Level adjustment is going the way of the dodo in exchange for racial feats. Instead of being a badass creature right out of the stables, it'll be a weaker version of its species, which can be further enhanced to match it's fellow, uh, whatevers by taking racial feats. Take, for example, the minotaur. Maybe it's gore attack, ability to traverse mazes, enhanced strength score, and large size will all be racial feats (the large size one can be clarified by saying it grew, but it's just an example so don't crucify me on it). This all can be even used as reference to the avangion and dragons in Dark Sun... transformation may require feats to complete, balancing them out ever so slightly.
That's what I have to say. I'm going to stop typing now, so this doesn't become too (much) long(er).
I noticed that there was a lot of divide on how the transition to 4E should be handled. I also noticed that a lot of people are concerned with how classes are recommended to be merged, and don't know what Talents from the new game are. I don't know too much about 4th edition itself, but I have seen Star Wars Saga Edition, and since a lot of 4E will be based on stuff in there (like talents) I'll give everybody a little info on that, which may help people on how they feel about things...
With the PC classes in saga edition, every level you either get a bonus feat or a new talent, and they alternated. The difference is that talents are exclusive to a class, whereas bonus feats are not. Bonus feats for saga edition (which every class has) are comparable to the feats that fighters got every other level: they came from a specific list, but were from the list of feats that anyone could take for their every-third-level feats, so they could be taken by other classes. Talents are comparable to Barbarian Rage, or Ranger's Favored Enemies, but you get to choose which ones you take. In that sense, I think that Gladiator can be folded into Fighter as a talent tree. The individual flavor will be there (with enough Gladiator Talents, a true gladiator will never take any other talent trees), but it'll keep with the 4e style of simplifying the class system. Any specialty your character has can still be enhanced through prestige classes, which aren't going away (and will have their own talents). The druid will probably also be folded into the cleric, so the same should be said for the Templar. Every feature they currently have can easily be converted into talents.
This could especially be a boon for wizards in Dark Sun, as the defiler can now be a restricted talent tree. This will allow them to possibly get to the level of power they were in 2nd edition D&D, which many people here will be happy about (like me). Maybe it'll open the way to preserver talent trees which will bring their power level up as well. This should all be fine and balanceable so long as we remember that the same talent trees that'll bring magic power up can be used for every other class as well.
As for races, I hear the the new standard will be that theoretically anything can be playable as a race. Level adjustment is going the way of the dodo in exchange for racial feats. Instead of being a badass creature right out of the stables, it'll be a weaker version of its species, which can be further enhanced to match it's fellow, uh, whatevers by taking racial feats. Take, for example, the minotaur. Maybe it's gore attack, ability to traverse mazes, enhanced strength score, and large size will all be racial feats (the large size one can be clarified by saying it grew, but it's just an example so don't crucify me on it). This all can be even used as reference to the avangion and dragons in Dark Sun... transformation may require feats to complete, balancing them out ever so slightly.
That's what I have to say. I'm going to stop typing now, so this doesn't become too (much) long(er).
I thought it was a great post. You could probably reduce the 11 Classes in the PHB to around 4-5 if you tried hard enough. Wonder if a talent could give you an increased hit dice or reduce your hit dice? A Fighter for example could easily be a barbarian or Paladin or ranger with the right talents but barbarians get d12 hit dice and rangers get d8.
In a way I've already done this as I got rid of the Gladiator class and Merged the Swashbuckler and Fighter into one class.
IMC Fighters now get 4 skill points/level and have the Swashbucklers skill list so you can have a various fighter builds done with your bonus feats. Just turn alot of class abilities or PrC abilities into bonus feats and make new feat trees for them.
Din't you post your defiler rules somplace, Xlorep? They were way cool. Athas.org should use those (or somtheing like them) instead of the current system, which kinda sucks. Defilers need more balls, plain and simple.
I don't remember posting my defiler rules anywhere. But, my personal website's gone through a few iterations as of late, it may have been in a previous incarnation. That said, my Defiler rules are using two non-OGL sources for them -- Paizo's Defilers, and the Book of Vile Darkness.
Dare I say it??!! I actually like Paizo's rules about Defiling....
AZAZEL
I do, except for the T'Liz part which I thought was incredibly goofy and a bit weak. I removed that, and instead added in the Addiction rules, in a slightly different interpretation, from the Book of Vile Darkness.
I do, except for the T'Liz part which I thought was incredibly goofy and a bit weak. I removed that, and instead added in the Addiction rules, in a slightly different interpretation, from the Book of Vile Darkness.
I don't really have any homegrown rules for Defiling. I'm lucky in that my players tend to play Preservers or Psions so i don't have to really deal with the whole Defiling mess. Perhaps I should pick up the Book of Vile Darkness.
I also don't use the Piazo rules but I think theres some really good things associated with it. The T'liz thing is pretty lame!
Would you recommend The Book of Vile Darkness???
I don't really have any homegrown rules for Defiling. I'm lucky in that my players tend to play Preservers or Psions so i don't have to really deal with the whole Defiling mess. Perhaps I should pick up the Book of Vile Darkness.
I also don't use the Piazo rules but I think theres some really good things associated with it. The T'liz thing is pretty lame!
Would you recommend The Book of Vile Darkness???
Unless you find the BoVD cheap somewhere its not that good. Its 3.0 and even then its been was of limited use.
Unless you find the BoVD cheap somewhere its not that good. Its 3.0 and even then its been was of limited use.
Yeah it's 46 dollars here in Canada and I have a real hard time justifying that kind of money for a book. I miss the good old 2nd edition days where a supplement was 14 bucks!!
I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this in 4th ed for classes.
Warrior (Fighter,Barbarian, Paladin,Ranger)
Mage (Wizard, Defiler,
Priest (Druid, Cleric, Templar, Favoured Soul)
Rogue (Rogue, Bard)
Skirmisher (Monk, Scout, Ranger?)
We already know that's not going to be the case. PHB will have 8 classes, with more to come out later.
Yeah it's 46 dollars here in Canada and I have a real hard time justifying that kind of money for a book. I miss the good old 2nd edition days where a supplement was 14 bucks!!
Try Amazon: Book of Vile Darkness (Dungeons & Dragons d20 3.0 Fantasy Roleplaying Supplement) by Monte Cook (Hardcover - Oct 1, 2002)
Buy new: $21.75 65 Used & new from $6.33
Plus a few bucks for shipping.
Severly underpowered, and partly broken, but that's because it's a relic of the 3.0 era. The fluff, the ideas, the themes, the core of the PrCs, it's top notch. The BoVD Boards (if they still exist) had a 3.5 conversion of the 3.0 rules for those who want it, and the entire community there worked on that conversion.We already know that's not going to be the case. PHB will have 8 classes, with more to come out later.
Which classes, Flip?
So, I'd expect the typical D&D classes in 4th Edition.
4e is a new game and it might be a good one, but there is no way i (As a oldschool TSR fan) can really accept it.
i shouldnt really even be posting this here, i just hope that 4e provides "Build Templates" that players can use to identify classes. like the Fighter build, the Wizard Build and so on.
Try Amazon: Book of Vile Darkness (Dungeons & Dragons d20 3.0 Fantasy Roleplaying Supplement) by Monte Cook (Hardcover - Oct 1, 2002)
Buy new: $21.75 65 Used & new from $6.33
Plus a few bucks for shipping.
I did that very thing earlier today. I picked one up for 5 bucks! The shipping is more than double the cost of the book itself!
Which classes, Flip?
Not definitively revealed, but:
Fighter, Cleric, Rouge and Wizard are, of course, PHB.
Apparently, warlock is in. Druid also likely. Monk and bard appear to be unlikely to come out in core. They do say that every class from 3e PHB will appear, just not in the first book.
there's a running rumors/confirmations page at ENworld: http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e
Also, your defenses (merged AC and savings throws) are going to go THROUGH THE ROOF if 4e follows the SWSE rules. You gain a +1 bonus to all your defenses AT EACH LEVEL! Essentially, this translates as your BAB and class bonus to Defense are the same, for combat specialist classes. Armor as equipment seems to become less important as you gain in levels, at least in terms of base defense. I'm assuming that mgaical armor or otherwise enhanced armor will still grant an edge.
Meanwhile, this link looks really cool, but makes me apprehensive about the huge amount of work that we'll have to do converting all of the Dark Sun weapons, not to mention haggling over the Gladiator multi-specialization legacy.
I'm also concerned about the gamist temptation to Flintstone everything, e.g. that we'll be tempted to create some nonmetal weapon that does all the cool stuff that a longsword does in 4e.
