How did it go?
What level of the PRc did the character get to?
Did the character perform well?
How so or why not?
What builds did they use to meet the prequisites?
Truthfully, one is better off with the Mind Mage prestige class from Dragon Magazine in tandem with the Dragon Disciple PrC from the DMG, compared Dragon Magazne's Athasian Dragon. You end up with a lot more power, and basically all the same physical benefits.
Also has anyone played either version? and if so is there anything you'd like to share about them?
i like defiler dragons almost as much as basic dragons. i believe a defiler dragon to be stronger due to psionics. normal dragons only have arcane or divine spellcasting. so a defiler dragon would pretty much dominate. a gem dragon would stand a better chance because they are psionic.
My rating of Defiler Dragons are cool not crappy.
Is there anyway I could get a look at this superior version then?
Also has anyone played either version? and if so is there anything you'd like to share about them?
Athas.org
It's there.
(seriously though, have faith that Flip will get it working again, soon)
And for the record: really cool.
I really don't like Athas.org Dragons for various reasons not all f witch are Athas.orgs fault. Specifically spellcaster/manifester multiclassing , epic level handbook and epic spellcasting all blow chunks and seems to be a reasonably commen opinion on the WoTC boards.
The ELH was awful in 3.0 and is worse in 3.5 and is one of the few D&D books I wish I never bought. I treated Athasian Dragons as an epic Dragon (NPC only) who had a stage 1-10 instead of the 12 age groups traditional D&D Dragons use. I even had the table all wriutten out by hand and it resembled the table in the MM and ELH for Dragons
Can anyone here tell me with a straight face that multiclass spellcasters/psionists, the Epic level handbook and Epic spellcasting feat work that well?
His arch-nemesis was a giant moth.
This wasn't a serious game. I think I blew up the moon.
Andropinis CR 39
Large 3rd stage dragon sorcerer (defiler) 10/psion (psychoportation) 10/cerebremancer 10
Init +4; Senses blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., Listen +22, Spot +22
Languages Many
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AC 25 (-1 size, +16 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 25
Hp 355 (30d4+15d12+180) DR 5/magic
Immune fire, sleep, paralysis effects
PR/SR 18
Fort +29, Ref +18, Will +37
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Spd 30 ft., burrow 20 ft., fly 120 ft. (poor)
Melee bite +33 (2d6+4), 2 claws +31 (1d8+2), 2 wings +31 (1d6+2), tail slap +31 (1d8+6)
Breath Weapon 40 ft. cone of grit (8d4)
Base Atk +30; Grp +39
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)
Special Actions frightful presence DC 24
Spell-Like Abilities At will--haboob
Sorcerer Spells Known (cast 6/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6 per day; DC 17 + spell level; CL 21st):
9th—imprisonment, shapechange, time stop
8th—prismatic wall, maze, iron body
7th—greater teleport, forcecage, waves of exhaustion
6th—antimagic field, disintegrate, Tensor’s transformation
5th—cloudkill, feeblemind, wall of force, baleful polymorph
4th—lesser globe of invulnerability, confusion, wall of fire, greater invisibility
3rd—hold person, fireball, displacement, vampiric touch
2nd—fog cloud, scorching ray, mirror image, bull’s strength, eagle’s splendor
1st—protection from good, shield, mage armor, true strike, magic missile
0—resistance, detect magic, read magic, dancing lights, light, mage hand, message, arcane mark, prestigitation
Power Points/Day: 393; Powers Known (DC 15 + power level; ML 21st):
9th—affinity field, timeless body
8th—recall death, shadow body, true metabolism
7th—psionic ethereal jaunt, energy wave
6th—temporal acceleration, fuse flesh
5th—baleful teleport, adapt body, psychic crush, tower of iron will, psionic true seeing
4th—aura sight, correspond, intellect fortress, psionic freedom of movement, empathic feedback, telekinetic maneuvers
3rd—astral caravan, psionic blast, mental barrier, energy bolt, energy burst
2nd—dimension swap, thought shield, ego whip, biofeedback, inflict pain
1st—burst, dissipating touch, inertial armor, mind thrust, defensive precognition, offensive precognition
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Abilities Str 18 Dex 10 Con 18 Int 20 Wis 19 Cha 24
SQ blindsense 60 ft., immunity to fire, keen senses, tremorsense 60 ft.
Feats Cleave, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Flyby Attack, Ghost Attack, Great Cleave, Greater Power Specialization, Greater Psionic Fist, Improved Initiative, Hover, Mobility, Multiattack, Overchannel, Power Attack, Power Specialization, Psionic Fist, Psionic Meditation, Unavoidable Strike, Weapon Focus (ray)
Skills Bluff +20, Climb +15, Concentration +61, Decipher Script +18, Hide +14, Intimidate +25, Jump +15, Listen +22, Knowledge (arcane) +29, Knowledge (psionics) +29, Knowledge (history) +18, Knowledge (the planes) +10, Move Silently +18, Psicraft +27, Ride +11, Sense Motive +22, Spellcraft +29, Spot +22, Survival +33
I look at the different stages of dragonhood as the same as the different ages of dragons. At stage one you are physically similar to a Young dragon. Each stage increases as per the age table for the dragon. At stage ten you would be like a Great wyrm. Just my own take.
I'm curious as to which issue of Dragon had this Mind Mage PrC.
313, I think? Definitely in that ballpark. It had a werewolf on the cover with a white background.
I took it over the cerebremancer because I wanted my metal dragon to be as odd as possible. I don't know why I didn't go with Wilder, though.
313, I think? Definitely in that ballpark. It had a werewolf on the cover with a white background.
This it?
With the article:
BRAIN POWER
Learn about the mind flayer’s psi-spellcasting, a potent blend of psionics and arcane magic.
By Clifford Horowitz
That is precisely the issue in question! Would I get in a heap of trouble if I just posted the pages, or types out the class and posted it? Are they brutal about stuff like that?
I'm sure something like that would be frowned upon. You can easily pick up the issue in pdf at Paizo for US$4.95. Which is exactly what I'm going to do.
A suggestion I would make is to use Erudite for your psionic base class. It compliments the PrC abilities nicely. Also, I house-ruled that a player can substitute Metapsionic and Metamagic feats for the Psi-Spell feats required to enter the class, because they just don't mesh well with 3.5E.
Androponis
Large 3rd stage dragon (young adult sand dragon) sorcerer (defiler) 10/psion (psychoportation) 10/cerebremancer 10
Atzetuk
Medium 1st stage dragon (young sand dragon) sorcerer (defiler) 10/psion (clairsentience) 10/cerebremancer 10
Dregoth
Gargantuan 9th stage dragon (wyrm sand dragon) (undead) sorcerer (defiler) 10/psion (psychokinesis) 10/cerebremancer 10
Hamanu
Large 3rd stage dragon (young adult sand dragon) sorcerer (defiler) 10/psion (psychometabolism) 10/cerebremancer 10
Lalali-Puy
Large 3rd stage dragon (young adult sand dragon) sorcerer (defiler) 10/psion (metacreativity) 10/cerebremancer 10
Nibenay
Large 4th stage dragon (adult sand dragon) sorcerer (defiler) 10/psion (telepathy) 10/cerebremancer 10
I'm going to look over the mind mage, though. This basis may get some revisioning.
I like Athasian Dragons. I don't like Avangions. I would have preferred if good/evil both became Dragons.
In my view of Dark Sun, there are no Avangions. Magic is destructive. Yes, you can use it as preserver and try to mitigate its destructiveness, but, at its core, it is destructive. So, there are only dragons. And there are no good dragons.
The big thing is the 339 can continue progressing as a dragon indefinetly while it seems to me that the athas.org version caps out at 10.
Also what do you guys think of a warmage-psychic warrior-mind mage to dragon king build? That way you could wear armor.
Now having had a chance to look at both the dragon 339, and the athas.org version, I gotta say that the athas.org dragon is far superior as far overall power, but the necessity of researching that many epic spells, the need to redo the sacrfice every level, and the increased simplicity of the 339's dragon magic ability, put me solidly in the 339 camp. No offense to the creators of the Athas.org version.
For the record, we did both versions. The Dragon 339 version is a limited and restricted interpretation of what was already done for the Athas.org release.
The big thing is the 339 can continue progressing as a dragon indefinetly while it seems to me that the athas.org version caps out at 10.
Actually, not quite. There is infinite development for the Athas.org version -- through the Prestige Class. The spells are separate from the Prestige Class, and primarily just provide the mode for the physical transformation into a dragon, retaining as much of the ideas presented in the 2e materials, updating what we could to 3/3.5e, and then having to expand on the rules a bit to make it "reimagined" a bit for a 3/3.5e campaign. Stage-10 may be the highest spell stage for the Athas.org version, but that doesn't equal a level 10 Dragon, nor does it mean that the Dragon cannot take any more levels in the Prestige Class. I've built dragons which were level 15 dragon (PrC), but only Stage-5. The two progressions are somewhat independent of each other, except at the start, where a prerequisite for being able to start the PrC, is to have successfully completed and cast the first spell.
Also what do you guys think of a warmage-psychic warrior-mind mage to dragon king build? That way you could wear armor.
Exactly where would he wear armor?
I've built Hamanu personally as a Psychic Warrior/Wizard(defiler) idea before. I've also done him as a Psychic Warrior/Sorcerer(defiler) idea, using the concepts I had for Athasian Sorcerers a bit. I've also done Borys as a Psychic Warrior/Wizard(defiler). I tend to like making them Psychic Warriors rather than Psions or other psionic classes, mainly because they had special weapons they were given by Rajaat, and I like a little mechanical explanation a bit as to why.
Exactly where would he wear armor?
Magic armor resizes to fit the wearer, and an SK could always enchant armor to change size and shape with them if they polymorph into human form or drop the illusion of humanity.
Actually, I think they should have a trait similar to the Druid ability to retain the benefits of their armor when Wildshaped (I'm 99% sure that is a Druid ability). It would seem use ful for an SK to have the same thing.
Now having had a chance to look at both the dragon 339, and the athas.org version, I gotta say that the athas.org dragon is far superior as far overall power, but the necessity of researching that many epic spells, the need to redo the sacrfice every level, and the increased simplicity of the 339's dragon magic ability, put me solidly in the 339 camp. No offense to the creators of the Athas.org version.
Heh. Thank you.
If you look at the credits in Dragon, you'll see that Jon and I wrote that article. It was developed after the athas.org version came out, and we wrote it to meet a somewhat different set of constraints than those we used for the athas.org version.
The stickied thread labeled [Dragon magazine] at the top of this forum is actually in relation to this article.
It's right there in the phb, rules, prices, and weights for non-humanoid armor of unusual size.
Now the lack of alot of metal on athas would mean no mithral full plate with adamantine spikes, but I'm sure with a little work you could get together enough leather and bone for a respectably terrifying armor.
Exactly where would he wear armor?
Even though it's not DS and was a beer-and-pretzels thing, this is why I chose the Warforged when making my warmage/psion/mind mage/dragon king, as a simple feat pretty much puts him in light or medium armor permanently.
Though I think there's an enchantment somewhere that allows armor to change sizes with the wearer. Of course, you could always give it custom sized armor, as rampant mentioned.
I am a fan of armored Athasian dragons, personally... but I always find myself playing as a gladiator or templar.
And also, I'm fairly certain that Dragon switched to 3.5 around issue 300 or so. Something about the githyanki on the cover... I remember checking to make sure the Mind Mage was 3.5. I could be mistaken, though.
And also, I'm fairly certain that Dragon switched to 3.5 around issue 300 or so. Something about the githyanki on the cover... I remember checking to make sure the Mind Mage was 3.5. I could be mistaken, though.
The issue fell on the cusp of the switch over to 3.5. The three issues preceding the issue with the mind mage were information issues explaining the changes in 3.5.
Well I was thinking how freaking cool it would be to have huge spiked barding on your dragon king. Come on how is that not awesome?
Ya mean like this bad boy?
And also, I'm fairly certain that Dragon switched to 3.5 around issue 300 or so.
It was issue 310 - the one with the two hawt fighter chicks by Elmore on the front.
Ya mean like this bad boy?
I have to concede that cool image has forced me to rethink my initial visceral reaction against the idea of a dragon in barding. Fortunately I'm not part of the group that typically makes such decisions.
...and I'm still left wondering "what's the point?"
Because it looks cool.
Wait, you probably can't hear me :D
But it does. That's reason enough.
I personally have no problem with dragon-men (like dray, draconians, etc) wearing armor. They are still human-form more or less. The lower stages of the dragon metamorphosis, I could possibly see it. But the higher stages, I'm really still not thrilled with the idea of a dragon in armor, it just doesn't look, or feel right (in my opinion), and I'm still left wondering "what's the point?"
To get your AC really high. Dragon with fighter levels wearing +5 mithril full plate (not on Athas perhaps) would have +13 to its AC and armor is easily enchanted with enhancements to cover up any weaknesses said Dragon may have.
And the reason it's not redundant is because Natural Armor Bonuses and Armor bonuses stack, because they are from different sources. That said, Dragon barding would be difficult to manage and create.
Ok, munchkin dynamics are even less appealing to me. And players who try to min-max/munchkin-ize my campaigns, usually end up very dead. Amazing how easy it is to tear apart two-dimensional characters.
Well theres min/maxing and min/maxing. Some things are kinda obvious (power attack/two handed weapons), Fighters wearing armor etc.
If a Dragon (Athasian or otherwise) is capable of wearing armor its kinda logical for them to wear it and they're strong enough to fly while wearing it as well it just makes sense for them to do so. Doesn't have to be Mithril even and barding isn't that hard t make
Then again some min/max combos are kinda pushing the limits (Dragons with monk levels or vow of poverty, Dragon with Monk levels and Vow of Poverty......). Thats one reason why alot of spells or classes are broken in NPCs hands and not PCs. Monks need high ability scores to work and Dragons have them. Dragons using mage armor and shiled spells can get riduless ACs alot higher than their CR. I won't even mention a Dragon using Epic Mage Armor...........
Actually, armor enchanted with the Shade ability in AE would make the environmental effects not a problem.
Don't you mean...in the DMG?
Armor would stop a dragon from flying, wouldn't it?
Nope. It would need to follow the exotic bardic rules, though, as the DMG takes into account PCs have two legs and arms but that their horses may have wings or be dragons...nothing in there AFAIK about winged PCs. Should be an easy fix though.
No. It's in the last copy of the AE I have. (I put it there, with Meth's help.)
Terrible, terrible memory mine is! I think I remember now though....wait, who are you again?
Armor would stop a dragon from flying, wouldn't it?
I think it did in 2nd ed but not in 3rd. Kinda like how a really strong Fighter can swim in full plate.
I suppose, since lizards shed their skins, that Dragons could too, so theoretically you might amend the Dragon rules to treat their scales as actual armor rather than natural armor. That way the armor bonuses would overlap. Just a thought. But this issue is way out of my bailiwick.
Well if it doesn't stop the dragon from flying, then it seems kind of munchkin to allow.
I suppose, since lizards shed their skins, that Dragons could too, so theoretically you might amend the Dragon rules to treat their scales as actual armor rather than natural armor. That way the armor bonuses would overlap. Just a thought. But this issue is way out of my bailiwick.
I'm kinda a min/maxer (reasonable one I don't frequent the min/max boards) but Dragons can get ridiculess AC scores by using spells to buff their already high AC scores.
Similar problem existed in 3.0 by polymorphing fighters into Trolls or whatever and wearing full plate. Fighter levels kinda suck but give monsters the ability to wear armor while a single Wizard/Sorceror level lets them cast Mage Armor and Shield (+8 AC). A monk level adds wisdom bonus to AC etc.
There's a time & place for min-maxing, but the rules bureaus have got to decide whether they want to set things up to encourage dragons to wear armor. Fortunately, from what I can tell, 4e is going to obviate some of these issues.
Reasonable min/maxin is often a way to see if somethings broken though. If you're a Mul fighter type or Half Giant you probably want to take power attack and use a Two handed weapon. Note thats theres plenty of other ways a Dragon or whatever can get armor bonus to AC via spells (Mage armor, epic mage armor) or magic/psionic item- Bracers of Armor or theat +8 Psionic skin or whatever in the Complete Psionics book.
Ring of Deflection+5, Mage armor and shield is an easy +13 AC. This is just basic stuff as well not exactly excessive min/maxing.
Reasonable min/maxin is often a way to see if somethings broken though.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Unreasonable min/max (DM min/max) is stuff like a Great Wurm Gold Dragon with a single monk level and the Vow of Poverty. Think the AC is around 60+ odd, saving throws through the roof and if the PCs kill it they get no treasure.
Another dumb one is Athasian Half Giant with Hulking Hurler PrC with barbaraian an maybe Frenzied Berzerker levels as well. A level 15-20 one of those can kill Dregoth in one hit.
Almost anything involving Polymorph is inherently broken as well (this may include lifeshaping in the LSH) but thats more of a problem with polymorph and shapechange magic in general than the LSH. You would be amazed at what even a simple Alter Self spell can do (wings, breath water, disguise, natural armor bonus to AC, 10 minute level duration....).
Thats another reason why I suggested to make Athasian Dragons NPCs only and have them around CR 22-35 ish and make the 2nd ed transformation spell a ritual as oppposed to using the epic spellcaster feat which also tends to be broken as hell. We've playtested in the level 21-30 range more than a few times and the game is really unplayable without either alot of houserules or DM nerfing of various spells (shapechange/polymorph, disjunction, timestop,gate, forcecage). The higher level you go the worse it gets. Any Sorceror King using Athas.org rules is basically unkillable if they're level 40+ if they're even slightly well prepared or even reasonably "min/maxed" (metamagic feats instead of say toughness feat). They're still reasonably weak for their CR when compared to other critters in their CR range but due to the magic they have they should be able to mop the floor with any PCs all the time unless PCs are of similar level to them (level 50-60). In 2nd ed they were tough but a level 10-20 party could take one on and maybe survive with a bit of luck- magic wasn't as overwhelming for various reasons.
At CR 22-35ish theyre on par with Archfiends of other D&D worlds, defeatable by high level PCs. Essentially I replaced the Dragon age advancement table (wyrmling-great wyrm) with a 10 stage Dragon table for the old 2nd ed level 21-30 Dragon stage. At one point I actually houseruled (banned) most of the problem spells right out of the game and used a Druid varient that didn't have access to wildshape (Unearthed Arcana). A spellbuffed wildshaped Druid+animal companion can almost engage a high level party by himself and as a DM I have used Druids as BBEG before.
As written high/epic level combt seems to revolve around initiative and Mordenkainens Disjunction to get rid of the opposing parties spells and sometimes Timestop. I think we had a epic wizard go nova and cast 19 spells a round and still ahd a few memorised and plenty of scrolls and magic items to use. You really need access to dispel effects or disjunction vs Dragons (Athasian or normal D&D ones).
Well if it doesn't stop the dragon from flying, then it seems kind of munchkin to allow.
You'll have to hunt down and read 3E's FR entry for the Avariel Elves.
Unreasonable min/max (DM min/max) is stuff like a Great Wurm Gold Dragon with a single monk level and the Vow of Poverty.
Good example. Since I lean more towards the simulationist/world consistency school of thought, I'm more appalled at the idea of a system that encourages something as glaringly unlikely as a dragon schooling itself in humanoid martial arts and undergoing a vow of poverty, than with the doubtlessly absurd AC bonus that such a critter would get.
So for me, the question of whether the system should encourage Athasian Dragons to wear armor has more to do with "is this consistent with the world as we know it?" If Dragons get a huge bonus derived from wearing armor, and no penalty, then you'd expect all SKs to be wearing it, since they aren't much limited in their resources. Do SKs as we know them wear armor?
OTOH, you can see powerful & unlikely combos when the base creature is not smart and doesn't have resources, but ends up getting equipped and organized by a master who is smart and does have resources. That's the idea we were trying to play on in FFN with the Baazrag runner, for example.
Do the Obsidian Orbs the dragons require, and spell components as well, preclude the possibility of keeping the vow of poverty?
Do the Obsidian Orbs the dragons require, and spell components as well, preclude the possibility of keeping the vow of poverty?
Probably not, given the huge amounts that they gather to build zigurats. If the dragon in question is a sk, you also run into the problem of owning a palace, and arguably the whole city, etc., which is probably beyond the strictures of a vow of poverty.
But you can't keep a vow of poverty unless you've made one. So before we even get to your question, IMO, we should ask
(1) Does the vow of poverty fit with Athas in the first place?
(2) what believable character motivations could a Dragon have for making a vow of poverty?
Most Dragons wouldn't wear armor due to arcane spell failure since. Some could though with careful spell selection (True Strike, Blur, Power Words) or just use Psionics. Wands, Staf's etc also don't provoke arcane spell failure.
Theres easier ways for Dragons to gain a armor bonus than actually wearing armor. There are ways to reduce arcane spell failure and any Dragon could enchant the armor with different abilities (fortification etc).