DS canon tells us this about the origin of the Pristine Tower:
Dark Sun Official Timeline wrote:
Disagree.
2: "Surviving nature-masters create the Pristine Tower to destroy the Brown Tide." Does not necessarily contradict the other statement, which refers to an original intent of those that *began* construction of the PT.
It seems goofy to propose that a band of surviving nature-masters could just toss together the single most powerful artifact in all of Athas, under the gun like that.
(it also seems tacky to answer your own question after you had already made your position on the issue clear.)
Oronis' explanation, that the original intent of the PT construction was to serve as a weapon in the First of Wars, helps make it *possible* that "Surviving nature-masters" could create the PT in their rush to destroy the Brown Tide. The survivors only pulled off that remarkable accomplishment of creating the PT during those rush conditions, because most of the work had been done already, and then abandoned when the war was officially won.
It is not "retconning" to go back and suggest a previously unproposed method by which the nature-masters could have done what the sources said that they did.
As for your objections, take it to another thread. This thread is for votes on what folks think of the change you guys made.
personally in my fandom of the mudpalace i have it where the castle actually housed a crystal that absorbed and house the solar energy from the sun. the crystal could then be taken to the pristine tower and used as a battery for their "Weapon'.
so the idea of the tower being capable of being a weapon actually helps me. lol. i also made it to where the crystal was ruined when the sun changed, and it ended up shattering when they tried to move the crystal.
so i like the idea of the tower being capable of destruction. but i think the new info should include the old. the tower was constructed to be a housing for their Lifeshaped device, depending on what type of "Battery" was used the tower has a differant function, be it creative or destructive. the tower could also be used to open a planar gate or another type of portal, maybe even aid in timetravel and we already know it can infuse people with power. the tower is a serious artifact of the past.
So i like the new info, but i would request folding the old into it somehow.
and remember this is only a game and no reason to get offensive. Athas.org does us a service by allowing fans to playtest things instead of just saying "this is how it is, and if you dont like it, play something else" so instead of being rude, be considerate and constructive and maybe they will listen to you. but if your offensive pretty soon no one will even read your posts. i would prefer it for you to be an active and constructive part of these discussions, not a disruption. so chill out a little redkank and try to post your opinions in a bit more positive way.
well i can see how both can apply. they create the tower to both combat the brown tide and as a weapon. there are ways to tie both together.
personally in my fandom of the mudpalace i have it where the castle actually housed a crystal that absorbed and house the solar energy from the sun. the crystal could then be taken to the pristine tower and used as a battery for their "Weapon'.
so the idea of the tower being capable of being a weapon actually helps me. lol. i also made it to where the crystal was ruined when the sun changed, and it ended up shattering when they tried to move the crystal.
so i like the idea of the tower being capable of destruction. but i think the new info should include the old. the tower was constructed to be a housing for their Lifeshaped device, depending on what type of "Battery" was used the tower has a differant function, be it creative or destructive. the tower could also be used to open a planar gate or another type of portal, maybe even aid in timetravel and we already know it can infuse people with power. the tower is a serious artifact of the past.
So i like the new info, but i would request folding the old into it somehow.
and remember this is only a game and no reason to get offensive. Athas.org does us a service by allowing fans to playtest things instead of just saying "this is how it is, and if you dont like it, play something else" so instead of being rude, be considerate and constructive and maybe they will listen to you. but if your offensive pretty soon no one will even read your posts. i would prefer it for you to be an active and constructive part of these discussions, not a disruption. so chill out a little redkank and try to post your opinions in a bit more positive way.
Not seeing anything offensive or rude from me in this thread at all, actually. Sure, in that other thread maybe - but baiting Greyorm doesn't count ;) If you ask me, making a thread for folks to place their votes is contructive.
Looks like the high and mighties of athas.org don't like it when someone tries to get a straight view on what folks think of their changes to the setting.
As for your objections, take it to another thread. This thread is for votes on what folks think of the change you guys made.
Offensive. this thread is going to end up getting closed soon. My spidey sense are telling me.
Offensive. this thread is going to end up getting closed soon. My spidey sense are telling me.
Yep!
Offensive. this thread is going to end up getting closed soon. My spidey sense are telling me.
Only offensive to the most precious, over-sensitive primadonna types. Brax is happy to dish it out - he should have the guts to take a little of his own medicine in return.
Back on topic please.
I wholehearty AGREE.
Halflings constructed the Pristine Tower to kill the Brown Tide by changing the Sun. To suggest otherwise contradicts the Wanderers Chronicle.
Is the Wanderer's Chronicle supposed to be taken as a completely objective account of history now? I thought the name of the book, the "Wanderer's" Chronicle would suggest that it was written by, well, the Wanderer, and would be his personal subjective viewpoint.
Well i don't know if it should be taken as a completely objective account of history no but the book does say why the Pristine Tower was created. Thats not to say it can't do anything else mind you.
The history of Athas section is obviously the Wanderers own subjective. To quote the Wanderer from page 9 of his Chronicle.
"I have searched and questioned the wise and the well placed for many years, and I believe that I have glimpsed the world of splendor and abundance buried beneath the centuries, the blood, and the sand. I have made sense of the jumble, cut past the folklore, and found at least a portion of the true history of our world. This is what I share with you."
AZAZEL
I agree, though I don't think it really discounts the idea of the Pristine tower being used to stop the Brown Tide. It's hard to give an up down vote when there are other better possibilities outside of yes/no.:P
Lol, not in this thread there aren't :D
I could make another poll with some more options, if you'd prefer... especially seeing as my Brown Tide thread seems to have been deleted for reasons I am completely at a loss to explain... ;)
I agree, though I don't think it really discounts the idea of the Pristine tower being used to stop the Brown Tide. It's hard to give an up down vote when there are other better possibilities outside of yes/no.:P
I'm with Sage here, it doesnt discounts it.
Lol, not in this thread there aren't :D
I could make another poll with some more options, if you'd prefer... especially seeing as my Brown Tide thread seems to have been deleted for reasons I am completely at a loss to explain... ;)
As evidenced. Just because you start a thread doesn't mean you can control how people respond to it. The only way you can manage that is if people respect you enough to do so. I am confident that you are capable of doing so with a little more patience.
Would you rather have your threads ignored? Or have people post in them in a way that you can't control?
I only have the power to decide how and where and when I post.... but everyone else on these boards has that power as well.
I find the way you've respond to people lately to be irritating and mildly inflamatory, but I can't speak to your intentions other then to observe that you have admitted to baiting Greyorm (whether you meant that as a joke or not). I myself had a long and involved argument with Greyorm at one point and understand that he can be very frustrating and uncompromising, but he has a very well nuanced understanding of his own point of view and will not back down on certain things. You do not have to agree with him to accept that he has a valid point of view that others may share as well.
Please try to moderate your responses to people until you have established a good enough report with them to make fun of them without inciting them. A simple response of patience and understanding now and again would go a long way toward making people more receptive of your ideas and less likely to take your statements the wrong way.
The origin of the Xik-Chil for example was never really stated to saying they are former Halflings is odd but semi understandable. This one is going to anoy alot of people methinks.
I'm with Sage here, it doesnt discounts it.
No it doesn't discount. It changes the established time line of Athas.
As evidenced. Just because you start a thread doesn't mean you can control how people respond to it. The only way you can manage that is if people respect you enough to do so. I am confident that you are capable of doing so with a little more patience.
Lol, now you're trying to take me seriously :D. I strongly advise against it!
Would you rather have your threads ignored? Or have people post in them in a way that you can't control?
Either of these is good for me, but particularly the second option. A hefty dose of discordia really rocks my world - the less control I have over what happens next, the better.
I find the way you've respond to people lately to be irritating and mildly inflamatory, but I can't speak to your intentions other then to observe that you have admitted to baiting Greyorm (whether you meant that as a joke or not). I myself had a long and involved argument with Greyorm at one point and understand that he can be very frustrating and uncompromising, but he has a very well nuanced understanding of his own point of view and will not back down on certain things. You do not have to agree with him to accept that he has a valid point of view that others may share as well.
Yeah, but he's so funny when he gets all finger-waggy and uptight. I just can't resist it, man. Fish in a barrel, lol...
Please try to moderate your responses to people until you have established a good enough report with them to make fun of them without inciting them. A simple response of patience and understanding now and again would go a long way toward making people more receptive of your ideas and less likely to take your statements the wrong way.
Thanks, but no thanks. You're a good dude and all, but it's not the way I roll.
Ewww. Gratitude? Makes me feel dirty. Have ta go out and kick some kittens or something now...
;)
Thanks, but no thanks. You're a good dude and all, but it's not the way I roll.
So you'd rather incite arguments rather than work toward mature, rational discussion.
No it doesn't discount. It changes the established time line of Athas.
No, it does not. In fact, it enrich it. You can say it's a rectangle while in fact it's a square. A square is a rectangle. Although, the rectangle isnt as much defined as square.
You can say it's a rectangle while in fact it's a square. A square is a rectangle. Although, the rectangle isnt as much defined as square.
Megadork! :P
No, it does not. In fact, it enrich it. You can say it's a rectangle while in fact it's a square. A square is a rectangle. Although, the rectangle isnt as much defined as square.
What?
Brax is happy to dish it out - he should have the guts to take a little of his own medicine in return.
I don't spread falsehoods about what people have said and done, and then pass that off as a "straight view."
In all fairness, there was no venomous statement in the opening post
I disagree. A lie is venemous, even if I accept your premise that RedKank phrased his accusation politely. RedKank calls the work a "retcon", and refuses to edit that false accusation, even though RedKank has admitted on another one of these "poll" threads that it's a BS accusation, and that there is no conflict with previously published materials:
On this thread, I told RedKank:
You should not use words that you do not grasp.
Retconninginvolves a "deliberate changing of previously established facts in a work of serial fiction."
You concede that:
Therefore it is foolish to call this explanation a "retcon."
I'm interested in what fans think about this proposed history, whether positive or negative, but you, sir, are clearly not thinking. And when you frame a "poll" question with foolish and innacurate premises, you've created a null question. And the only educated answer to a null question is "Mu."
RedKank conceded the point:
Meh. Fine, call it a development of the canon if the word retcon gets you all riled.
And yet RedKank refuses to edit the false accusation, and proceeds with these "polls" based on false premises. If I were interested in the results of "polls" based on lying and manipulative pollsters, I'd have gone into electoral politics. I'm interested in the fan responses to our products, not to how one couch potato spins those opinions.
if you'd prefer... especially seeing as my Brown Tide thread seems to have been deleted for reasons I am completely at a loss to explain.
If you're accusing me of deleting it or asking someone else to delete it, the answer is no. I didn't notice it was gone until you pointed it out. I'm not moderate enough to be a moderator.
It doesn't always work that way, but we try. Me and Brax, for example, are always on the verge of a battle. Yet I respect him on many levels.
RedKank's coming, on the other hand, is more of a throwback to the Strutinan days than anything else.
It was deleted because there were blatant flaming attacks there. This is a new, and unwanted change to the forum community here, one which personally, I'd like see go away, things work much, much better when people discuss, rather than attack. And yes, the other thread had some very bad flames in it, and I know exactly why the mods deleted it. They did so as I was making a response calling out who had made the attacks, for making the very personal attacks. The individual definitely should know who it is.
There was flaming attacks in the other thread.
Me and Brax, for example, are always on the verge of a battle.
Yup. And yet through out these battles, Penn's contributed to my projects, I've helped to edit at least one of his projects, so it's a relationship of productive as well as respectful hostility. :D
The other thread I saw flaming attacks in, were not nearly as.... improper, impolite and blatantly vulgar. It also was locked to prevent the thread from degrading further. The one which was deleted, had really crossed the line.
Ah, that's a relief, since I was starting to get concerned that it was my post that had gotten the thread locked. I generally keep my improper impolite vulgarities subtle rather than blatant. :D
Yup. And yet through out these battles, Penn's contributed to my projects, I've helped to edit at least one of his projects, so it's a relationship of productive as well as respectful hostility. :D
I'm personally somewhat renown for having controversial topics and discussions, and really getting.... shall we say "passionate" in my counterarguments. I've butted heads with a number of the people here in the past, I even butt heads a lot with a number of the Athas.org people as well, on different topics. But in the end, that kind of discussion can usually weed out bad ideas, and eventually develops into something which works rather well in the products.
That is significantly different than open hostility toward people, which has been presented a bit much as of late. This forum, with it's ups and downs, arguments and so forth, had been a rather civil place to discuss ideas, as the conflicts were simply because everyone here is passionate about the setting, and we have widely varying ideas as to what the setting is and isn't. But in the end, we all more or less respect each other. Making overt, or covert personal attacks destroys some of that. I still say that making three separate "poll" threads, about nitpicked points, which are discussion points sure, but in a way to polarize the community into those who are "for" or "against" the ideas, first implies strongly that the work done for the product in question, was done by people who "apparently" don't know what they are doing. Second, like I said, it is a blatant effort to polarize the community, to make people pick sides, and to build hostilities, rather than invite discussion.
Yup. And yet through out these battles, Penn's contributed to my projects, I've helped to edit at least one of his projects, so it's a relationship of productive as well as respectful hostility. :D
Well thank you my good fellaw, and right back atchya! :D
I'm personally somewhat renown for having controversial topics and discussions, and really getting.... shall we say "passionate" in my counterarguments.
I recall you told me I was an idiot, a troll, or the likes, after my first few days on the boards (!) Took me a long time to like you after that, but I did
Our exchanges on your personal boards, about your dragon/Champion writeups, was what helped our situation.His statement about "the failure of communities to enforce community standards of behavior among their members" is very true.
We are powerless against such disruptions. I suggest you contact the board admins to lodge formal complaints if you feel strongly enough about this.
I recall you told me I was an idiot, a troll, or the likes, after my first few days on the boards (!) Took me a long time to like you after that, but I did
Probably a troll or something. That would sound like me when I'm in rant mode. Idiot seems not quite my style, but I honestly don't remember the exchange personally. :P
I just noticed this thread, and am dismayed to see that RedKank has helped drive off Raven, a Dark Sun old-timer whose art, ideas, and arguments I've enjoyed for more than a decade. Raven was one of the only vocal DS story-ists -- when I talk about "story" I'm referring more to world consistency, what the theorists call "simulationism." So while we often clashed on the old list-serv, I recognized that Raven brought a valuable point of view to the discussions, and the community is poorer without him.
That would be the thread I saw that was locked. I didn't actually read through the whole thing. It took a while for Raven to start showing up on these forums, and I've always appreciated his input here. Honestly, RedKank's open hostility is not doing this community any favors. I guess it's time to start implementing the process of the ignore function. I'd rather not, but if RedKank can't contribute in a constructive manner, I'd rather not see his angst-ridden ego running wild here.
(For anyone interested, the "Ignore" option is available when you look at someone's profile, there's a link for "Add to Your Ignore List" on it. to get to the profile, click on the person's name, then when the menu comes up, select "View Public Profile". the ignore function simply makes it so you'll see when someone posts, you just won't see the contents of their post.)
There have been other more disruptive people that I've had to deal with in the past on other forums and I have never employed the ignore function. My rational is that I want to know what people are responding to when they make their posts, even people who irritate me sometimes add to discussions if only inadvertently. However if the vast majority of the important posters were to "ignore" someone I guess I wouldn't be missing out on anything.
Maybe it's just because I never saw the deleted thread, but I don't think things have gone anywhere near that far yet.
That would be the thread I saw that was locked. I didn't actually read through the whole thing. It took a while for Raven to start showing up on these forums, and I've always appreciated his input here. Honestly, RedKank's open hostility is not doing this community any favors. I guess it's time to start implementing the process of the ignore function. I'd rather not, but if RedKank can't contribute in a constructive manner, I'd rather not see his angst-ridden ego running wild here.
I started ignoring that thread almost as soon as it degraded, I didn't notice it had been locked but I can see why it was. I agree that the majority of RedKank's posts are inflammatory, very rarely are they constructive. I didn't realize there was an ignore function - if things continue the way they have I'll have to start making use of it. Thanks for the tip!